I probably should have, but it's my first time through and thought that lost Izalith and demon ruins were too tough (so far DR doesn't seem that bad at all). I did manage to finish it, it was a real pain in the ass without any kind of light source. I kindled the last bonfire and then beat the paladin invader got to Nito and said "eff it" and used 3 humanity on the fight. Never want to go back.
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Dark Souls: Prepare to Die Edition |OT| Durante Does In 23 Minutes What From Can't
- Thread starter indigo-cyclops
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I probably should have, but it's my first time through and thought that lost Izalith and demon ruins were too tough (so far DR doesn't seem that bad at all). I did manage to finish it, it was a real pain in the ass without any kind of light source. I kindled the last bonfire and then beat the paladin invader got to Nito and said "eff it" and used 3 humanity on the fight. Never want to go back.
Laurentius
Member
Big thanks to Sullichin for helping me with Ornstein and Smough tonight. Got me my Ornstein armor and Leo ring, and he even dropped me a Titanite Slab! Used it to +15 my Lucerne. Fun weapon.
AnonymousTipster
Neo Member
I had no idea how good Lucy was (or the Leo Ring for that matter) until relatively recently.
I like how From Soft gives you a ring that increases counter damage and nowhere in the game tells you what a counter is.
Deprived SL6 Gaping Dragon - Easy.
Deprived SL6 Quelaag - Easy.
Deprived SL6 Moonlight Butterfly - Pain in the fucking ass, go figure...
Deprived SL6 Quelaag - Easy.
Deprived SL6 Moonlight Butterfly - Pain in the fucking ass, go figure...
Laurentius
Member
That two-handed R2. So good for clearing out waves of enemies. Gotta say I also love the "thunk" feeling of the normal R1 attack.
Also, looks like I just broke 100 hours with this game. I don't know if I've ever played a single player game to this point and still felt like I've barely scratched the surface of what I want to do with the game. Really should take a break so I don't get burnt out.
Finally defeated Quelaag. Stupid bitch, she was quite easy once I figured her up. Now I've got three ways to go. Demon Ruins, that new opened gate when I rang the bell, and the Hydra... I guess I'll check out DR and if it's too hard i'll just go to the gate (too scared of the Hydra).
Also the Zweihander has been pretty much useless for me so far :/ Powerful, but way too slow to be effective against these bosses. My Battle Axe remains my best weapon, even if slightly less powerful.
Also the Zweihander has been pretty much useless for me so far :/ Powerful, but way too slow to be effective against these bosses. My Battle Axe remains my best weapon, even if slightly less powerful.
Demon Ruins are a waste of time until later on in the game. Try using the running attack, the 2H R2, or the rolling attack with the zweihander against bosses. You can straight up stagger some bosses with the zweihander, it's insane.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
(Sorry, browser crapped on me... trying again)
Yes, we all die "a million times". But to me, what makes Demon's/Dark Souls so great is that these deaths are not cheap, but your own fault. You roll off a cliff in a panic? Your mistake. You ran blindly without putting your shield up and got ambushed? Your fault. You walked by too fast and missed the trap that you'd have seen had you been paying attention? Your fault. The game rewards you for taking your time, paying attention to your environment, building up your character intelligently, and learning monster behaviour instead of button smashing. There was even a cute cartoon posted not that long ago (I forgot in which thread though) exemplifying that very nicely.
When the deaths become cheap, the difficulty is artificial, and not a genuine challenge based on strategy, tactics, or skills. That's one thing I thought Demon's Souls did better than Dark Souls: no cheap deaths. The only one would be the lock-on bug on the mantas in 4-1 and 4-2 where you're facing a skeleton, hit lock-on and are suddenly turned around towards the mantas and fall off the cliff. Obviously such a death is the game's fault, not yours, but that was a bug, obviously not intentional.
Dark Souls, on the other hand, had a few cheap stunts, such as Seath's insta-death (the first time), and the stupid broken Bed of Chaos, and of course all the PvP imbalances the first one didn't have (and Demon's did have imbalances, but nothing nearly as broken as Dark).
I don't think automatic deaths that are not caused by the player's mistake make the game better at all. Obviously you disagree, but I don't get why. The whole "lol you'll DIEEEEEE" thing is getting tiresome, the multiple deaths weren't what made Demon's so great, it was how these deaths were your own fault and how rewarding it was to overcome the trials. There's nothing rewarding about avoiding cheap deaths.
PvP for its own sake is broken as hell in the forest, yes, but at least it's not game-breaking as far as PvE goes, so I am far less annoyed by it since one can simply avoid the PvP-for-its-own-sake ganking lameness.
By your logic, we should make every gear item and every magic teacher available from the start and it's up to each player to decide how he wants to play... yeah, stupid, right?
So you'll die even more. Isn't that what you all want?
Highlighting this for emphasis.
(Of course, they probably poison cloud-cheesed every boss to death, but that's another issue I guess... funny how they fixed that in Dark Souls and most bosses cannot be poisoned. Hmmm, it's as if they thought, "wait a minute, that's a... balance flaw!").
Edit: that was a long-ass post! Sorry for the quote fest ^^
So you think something being broken is "perfect"?
Oh wow, I couldn't disagree more.
Yes, we all die "a million times". But to me, what makes Demon's/Dark Souls so great is that these deaths are not cheap, but your own fault. You roll off a cliff in a panic? Your mistake. You ran blindly without putting your shield up and got ambushed? Your fault. You walked by too fast and missed the trap that you'd have seen had you been paying attention? Your fault. The game rewards you for taking your time, paying attention to your environment, building up your character intelligently, and learning monster behaviour instead of button smashing. There was even a cute cartoon posted not that long ago (I forgot in which thread though) exemplifying that very nicely.
When the deaths become cheap, the difficulty is artificial, and not a genuine challenge based on strategy, tactics, or skills. That's one thing I thought Demon's Souls did better than Dark Souls: no cheap deaths. The only one would be the lock-on bug on the mantas in 4-1 and 4-2 where you're facing a skeleton, hit lock-on and are suddenly turned around towards the mantas and fall off the cliff. Obviously such a death is the game's fault, not yours, but that was a bug, obviously not intentional.
Dark Souls, on the other hand, had a few cheap stunts, such as Seath's insta-death (the first time), and the stupid broken Bed of Chaos, and of course all the PvP imbalances the first one didn't have (and Demon's did have imbalances, but nothing nearly as broken as Dark).
I don't think automatic deaths that are not caused by the player's mistake make the game better at all. Obviously you disagree, but I don't get why. The whole "lol you'll DIEEEEEE" thing is getting tiresome, the multiple deaths weren't what made Demon's so great, it was how these deaths were your own fault and how rewarding it was to overcome the trials. There's nothing rewarding about avoiding cheap deaths.
Most new players won't get indicted, so that's moot. And most new players won't reach the Sif area that early, and if they do, they actually do have a chance to be in that area with half-decent gear, since by then they will have reached the blacksmith, and might even have accessed fire elemental weapons.
It is, but for different reasons, the imbalance is generally skewed towards invaders rather than hosts (aka SL 700 duping hosts and "forest gankers"). I've done low level runs in the forest and while I sometimes died to more powerful invaders, they were never so horribly overpowered that I stood no chance, unlike in the Parish and the Burg, because by that time you have something more than +0 gear.
PvP for its own sake is broken as hell in the forest, yes, but at least it's not game-breaking as far as PvE goes, so I am far less annoyed by it since one can simply avoid the PvP-for-its-own-sake ganking lameness.
These things are already limited, since you have stat requirements on weapons and spells. And your order of progression is limited, you never have more than a tiny handful of paths available; you can't do New Londo without beating the forest, you can't reach the forest before crossing the Parish (or the Burg/Basin), and so on.
Completely disagree. Difficulty, challenge and balance are the developer's responsibilities entirely. If someone wants to gimp themselves to make it harder, so be it, but I shouldn't have to gimp myself to enjoy a challenging game.
By your logic, we should make every gear item and every magic teacher available from the start and it's up to each player to decide how he wants to play... yeah, stupid, right?
The level requirements on gear was just one idea, it might not be necessary if it's balanced in some other way, but I just don't see how you'd program gear quality comparisons when there are so many different possible variables. But yeah, I don't get what the big outcry at my suggestion is. Oh no, you can't cheese bosses with a maxed out pyro glove and then brag you beat the game at SL1 as if that meant anything since an SL1 can already be super-powerful? Poor baby, now you have to be truly hardcore to beat it at SL1.
So you'll die even more. Isn't that what you all want? Yes! Again, this sums up what makes Dark Souls so great.
Highlighting this for emphasis.You can kill them with ranged attacks. I don't know how to kill them otherwise. Maybe you can lure them above ground but I never really tried. As for the path to the slab, I just spammed those prism stones. Hey, they actually have a use this time around!
So, how did people beat Demon's Souls at SL 1 without their pyro glove crutch? Seems like it's not at all necessary.
(Of course, they probably poison cloud-cheesed every boss to death, but that's another issue I guess... funny how they fixed that in Dark Souls and most bosses cannot be poisoned. Hmmm, it's as if they thought, "wait a minute, that's a... balance flaw!"
).If all weapons had level requirements it wouldn't be less useful than others. And also, level requirements could be applied to upgrades, so a Gravelord sword+0 is not the same requirement as a +5. You can grab it by speedrunning to the Catacombs early on, sure, but you can't grab 10 demon titanites that early after all.
Personally, I'd remove all non-scaling paths myself. I know I'm in the minority, though. But elemental weapons are broken: they're way too powerful at low level, and entirely outclassed at high levels. I didn't care for dragon weapons in Demon's Souls and I like Dark Souls elementals even less. Not just for the early-PvP, mind you, I just don't like the concept.
No, it's really not the same thing at all. Believe me, I played the hell out of both games, and PvPed til kingdom come. I've been invaded by idiots with dragon mirdan hammers in 2-1 when I had nothing but a starting longsword or maybe a winged spear, and I could still kill them. Scraping spear was very easily countered as well, never caused me problems. And flame toss is so easy to dodge it's never, ever a threat. No Demon's Souls invaders was ever harder than the boss of the level (unless they used the running Firestorm glitch maybe, but then, that is a glitch.)
That is true, it was. I like that armour is now useful.
Of course he will. I'm writing all this, but don't imagine I spend hours raging at the Parish invaders or anything. I even killed some of them with phantoms's help on occasion, and when they kill me I just roll my eyes at the losers and move on. But that doesn't mean these things couldn't be improved in a future game.
Edit: that was a long-ass post! Sorry for the quote fest ^^
AnonymousTipster
Neo Member
Yeah, you are hugely over-stating the "fairness" of Demon's Souls.
And a quick point about Demon's Souls: that game is even less strict about stat requirements and using things at low level! You can still use advanced gear at low levels because there are no alternate animations for attack swings. You can also use "hyper mode" (which is even more overpowered in Demon's Souls than in Dark Souls) to completely negate the decreased base damage for weapons you don't have the stats for.
I mean, just look at this guy completely abuse the Northern Regalia and Lava Bow:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs4jtMrCPV4
In this regard, Demon's Souls was far more "broken" than Dark Souls.
You've pretty much completely misunderstood my point here.
I'm not talking about the game's "standard" difficulty nor its intended difficulty curve, I'm talking about 100% optional challenge runs, the rules of which are imposed by individual players. I fully believe that the viability of these runs and challenges is fully intentional on the part of the developers. For more on this kind of variable difficulty, look at the bold section at the end of my post.
If you consider Darkroot Garden to be too late in the game for what you're talking about then I have absolutely no idea what to tell you. Balancing PvP specifically for the Undead Burg and Undead Parish is not worth removing non-scaling damage or putting SL limits on pyro gloves or any of that crap you're talking about. Keep in mind that any brand new player who is getting savaged by geared-out invaders in the Burg or the Parish will no longer have that happen to them as soon as they beat the Taurus Demon, Bellfry Gargoyles, etc.
This game can easily last over a hundred hours, why is it such an issue if it takes a while for PvP to fully open up?
So, how did people beat Demon's Souls at SL 1 without their pyro glove crutch? Seems like it's not at all necessary.
The level requirements on gear was just one idea, it might not be necessary if it's balanced in some other way, but I just don't see how you'd program gear quality comparisons when there are so many different possible variables. But yeah, I don't get what the big outcry at my suggestion is. Oh no, you can't cheese bosses with a maxed out pyro glove and then brag you beat the game at SL1 as if that meant anything since an SL1 can already be super-powerful? Poor baby, now you have to be truly hardcore to beat it at SL1.
I'm going to ignore the immature condescension going on here and just point out that plenty of people have beat the game without leveling and without relying on the pyro glove or non-scaling damage "crutches" (Look up ENB's class challenge for an idea of what I'm talking about). The entire point is that the players doing these challenges chose those limitations for themselves.
Despite the lack of modal difficulty selection, the difficulty of the Souls games has always, to some extent, varied based on the player. If you're not looking for a really tough time, by all means summon some other players and co-op your way through the game, or get yourself some powerful weapons (and in Dark Souls pump up your armor). And if you've got balls of steel and the patience of a saint, by all means wear no armor and use an un-upgraded dagger.
All I'm arguing for is the preservation of this type of "organic" difficulty selection.
I'm not particularly attached to the ascended pyro glove or lightning weapons or any of that shit. I just like that these sorts of options exist. The more options available to the player, the better. The more arbitrary limitations, the worse.
The non-scaling damage types may have been broken when the game first came out, but that's why they've been nerfed in each successive patch. They are really not that OP anymore, not nearly enough to be considered "game breaking."
Edit: and this is the last I'm going to say on this subject, obviously we are just talking in circles.
toddhunter
Member
It isn't broken. The person invading took the time to construct a character that can destroy you. You can do the same if you put in the effort.
It isn't meant to be friendly. It isn't a call of duty team match or something like that. If you are invaded then it should be by a deranged killer who is armed to the death and will stop at nothing at taking you down in the lamest and cheapest way possible.
You should be thinking "oh fuck" when a red phantom appears rather than "Oh this should be a pleasant pvp duel that I can partake in before continuing my journey". Yes it plays to the whole "you will die thing", but that is kind of the point of the game. Because "you will die" isn't really true at all. It is "you will die until you learn how to play and defeat the game and other people trying to do the same thing".
That is how I feel anyway and I don't want them to remove that feeling of accomplishment.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
1) Dark Souls has hyper mode too. Sure, DeS has the Moron blade too, but it's fairly late in the game. The Northern Regalia can only be used in NG+ without duping, not remotely an issue to what I'm talking about. The Lava Bow is honestly complete crap.
2) Hyper mode is risky, so it's not like there's no trade-off.
3) What do attack swings have to do with anything?
4) The only powerful low-level stuff in DeS are dragon weapons and they aren't -that- powerful. Again, not an issue.
If you want to argue that DeS had broken "cheesing" mechanics, I'd agree, but they aren't called Northern Regalia or hyper mode; rather, they're called Poison Cloud and Thief ring.
I did get that, I just disagree, and I think non-scaling damage makes the standard game's difficulty way too easy. I don't like the game being too easy, nor broken PvP, just so people can do these SL1 runs. I can nerf myself and not use them but ultimately the challenge should be the dev's responsibility, especially in a game noted for its alleged difficulty.
I don't know how to make it clearer than I already have, sorry.
I don't like it when some things are broken when they fairly easily could be fixed. Again I didn't say it was a huge deal, but people are reacting to my ideas as if I suggested the ultimate blasphemy or some shit. Wow, you'd think I suggested the game had QTEs or something. XD
You mean like the dismissive "all that crap you're talking about"? Oops.
It's funny how we actually agree on this. People can choose their own limitations. And people don't need non-scaling damage to do low-level runs. No argument there. So, again, the nature of the private player challenges would be slightly different, but not non-existent. I fail to see the issue. Hell, had it been designed like that initially, I'm 100% certain no one would have bitched and they'd have found other ways to further challenge themselves.
I didn't argue against that, so I don't know why you're highlighting this as if I were. Maybe you're beating on a strawman?
They are not arbitrary, they would be there for a reason. The same way you can't max out your pyro glove as soon as you land in Firelink, but you need to find Laurentius and then Quelana. Is that "arbitrary" too? If not, why not?
I'm sorry you feel that way. I thought this was an interesting conversation.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Effort? Time? Someone's obviously never heard of the BB glitch xD
Strawman. Try again.
Uh, yeah, that's my whole point, that low-level griefers cannot be defeated by being better. I'm not talking about mid-to-late-game invasions, FFS.
Please, if you want to disagree, that's fine, but at least try to read and comprehend what I write, instead of arguing against things I'm not saying.
toddhunter
Member
Which I think is completely untrue. You can do the same thing the griefers are doing and beat them. If you don't do that, or don't know how to get those weapons, then guess what? Yes getting invaded is a death sentence as it should be.
That is pretty much the point of the game in my eyes. It is unfair until you learn or do something different. This is to me what "getting better means" in a DS context and unfair invasions are just one part of that.
Once they start doing what you want it changes the design philosophy and it'll quickly turn into something quite different. Maybe it will be better and more appealing, but I doubt it very much. Just remember people like me are just sensitive to the whole slippery slope of change so don't worry too much about the whole "strawman" thing. Lots of people have strong opinions about what the game should or shouldn't be and I'm sure we can discuss them without going down those paths.
AnonymousTipster
Neo Member
I know I said I wouldn't respond any more but this will actually be my last reply, I swear.
You're kind of talking about two separate things here. If what you want is the game to just be more difficult across the board, why not get rid of all Black Knight weapons in addition to non-scaling damage? A fortuitous Black Knight drop can carry a player through the entire game just as easily (if not easier, depending on when they get the drop) than fully upgrading a fire or lightning weapon. That sort of thing is just as much of a crutch. Should co-oping be no longer allowed, because that makes otherwise difficult boss fights really easy?
In my opinion, it's easier (and better) for you to choose your own restrictions than it is for From Soft to just nerf everything across the board.
And then there's the issue of balancing low level PvP. Ultimately I don't think it matters that much. Of course a brand new player will be massacred by a geared out invader, but a brand new player in the Burg or the Parish is probably still only beginning to wrap his or her head around the game's mechanics. That sort of player doesn't have a chance against anyone, regardless of gear, unless they're pitted up against another completely new player.
I'm not talking about the games existing limitations, obviously those are there for very clear reasons -- they're what the entire game is built and balanced around.
Arbitrary would be patching in things like stat requirements or SL thresholds for the pyro glove (or adding them in Dark Souls II), because pyromancy was never meant to be dependent on stats in the first place.
And this is just an unsupportable statement. Like I said above, of course brand new players won't be able to contend with low-level griefers; equipment aside, they probably don't even have a solid grasp on the game's mechanics at that point.
But if you're trying to tell me that a veteran player who's starting a brand new NG run has no chance against a griefer in the Burg or Parish just because of gear, then that's ridiculous. If you've got the skill, and the knowledge, you've always got a chance.
Nothing in this game is so utterly broken that it completely negates skill (except for the abyss sorceries -- but those have high level requirements so they can't be used at low level, obviously).
I definitely agree with this. The difficulty of the Souls series has always been primarily knowledge based.
And for PvP, there is no solid way to guarantee that noob gets matched up with noob, and I don't think that gently easing new players into PvP is all that necessary.
The rest of Dark Souls isn't very accessible or new-user friendly, why should PvP be any different?
Edit:
I swear pretty casually; 9 times out of 10, when I say "crap" or "shit" it's interchangeable with the word stuff. Sorry if your mileage varies, man.
You're kind of talking about two separate things here. If what you want is the game to just be more difficult across the board, why not get rid of all Black Knight weapons in addition to non-scaling damage? A fortuitous Black Knight drop can carry a player through the entire game just as easily (if not easier, depending on when they get the drop) than fully upgrading a fire or lightning weapon. That sort of thing is just as much of a crutch. Should co-oping be no longer allowed, because that makes otherwise difficult boss fights really easy?
In my opinion, it's easier (and better) for you to choose your own restrictions than it is for From Soft to just nerf everything across the board.
And then there's the issue of balancing low level PvP. Ultimately I don't think it matters that much. Of course a brand new player will be massacred by a geared out invader, but a brand new player in the Burg or the Parish is probably still only beginning to wrap his or her head around the game's mechanics. That sort of player doesn't have a chance against anyone, regardless of gear, unless they're pitted up against another completely new player.
I'm not talking about the games existing limitations, obviously those are there for very clear reasons -- they're what the entire game is built and balanced around.
Arbitrary would be patching in things like stat requirements or SL thresholds for the pyro glove (or adding them in Dark Souls II), because pyromancy was never meant to be dependent on stats in the first place.
And this is just an unsupportable statement. Like I said above, of course brand new players won't be able to contend with low-level griefers; equipment aside, they probably don't even have a solid grasp on the game's mechanics at that point.
But if you're trying to tell me that a veteran player who's starting a brand new NG run has no chance against a griefer in the Burg or Parish just because of gear, then that's ridiculous. If you've got the skill, and the knowledge, you've always got a chance.
Nothing in this game is so utterly broken that it completely negates skill (except for the abyss sorceries -- but those have high level requirements so they can't be used at low level, obviously).
I definitely agree with this. The difficulty of the Souls series has always been primarily knowledge based.
And for PvP, there is no solid way to guarantee that noob gets matched up with noob, and I don't think that gently easing new players into PvP is all that necessary.
The rest of Dark Souls isn't very accessible or new-user friendly, why should PvP be any different?
Edit:
I swear pretty casually; 9 times out of 10, when I say "crap" or "shit" it's interchangeable with the word stuff. Sorry if your mileage varies, man.
Removing non-scaling damage types ultimately limits options for all players, and in general.
To improve PvP in particular and I'd argue PvE too aside from obvious netcode issues would require a couple things. First, limit the distance/angle for successful parries, as well as impose a much higher crit punishment for a failed parry. Second, do the same distance/angle nerf for backstabs and remove the "sucked into a backstab" situation, give players another couple frames to avoid backstabs. These two things would require players to experiment with a entire move set rather than just circle each other or spam parry. Aside from that give all players more options to diversify PvP/PvE with weapon types and damage scaling/stacking.
The last thing should be common sense for a game like this, and that's locked 60fps. If the game is ever to become a skill-based technical fighting system that it should be, 30fps has to go. Also input lag, it sucks, fix that.
To improve PvP in particular and I'd argue PvE too aside from obvious netcode issues would require a couple things. First, limit the distance/angle for successful parries, as well as impose a much higher crit punishment for a failed parry. Second, do the same distance/angle nerf for backstabs and remove the "sucked into a backstab" situation, give players another couple frames to avoid backstabs. These two things would require players to experiment with a entire move set rather than just circle each other or spam parry. Aside from that give all players more options to diversify PvP/PvE with weapon types and damage scaling/stacking.
The last thing should be common sense for a game like this, and that's locked 60fps. If the game is ever to become a skill-based technical fighting system that it should be, 30fps has to go. Also input lag, it sucks, fix that.
The current backstab/parry system would work so much better if there was never any lag, but I agree they should both be tightened up and nerfed in PVP. I also want strength builds to be more viable. They're fun to play as now but the go-to seems to be dex/int or quality builds. Dex users get faster castings, lighter weapons, bleed. The higher AR of strength weapons doesn't make up for them being easily parried, slow, and heavy. I like playing pure strength in pvp but I feel like i'm at a disavantage to the dex users at the same SL.
Hmm, so is there any reason I can't light the bonfire in lost izalith behind the hidden wall? It doesn't prompt at all
You might be getting invaded. If it doesn't activate you can quit/reload
Laurentius
Member
Hmm, so is there any reason I can't light the bonfire in lost izalith behind the hidden wall? It doesn't prompt at all
If you're human and someone is trying to invade you, you can't light bonfires. I've had that happen quite a bit, and not actually get invaded, due to the jankiness of the online...
EDIT: Beaten
Nice, while I was tabbed out thanking you guys, the bastard invaded and got me lol. That was my first invasion too. Honestly, I wish it would let you play through the game the first time with tips, etc. but not allow you to get invaded if you don't want. That's what ng is for.
Especially seeing as how the guy was throwing magic like a machine gun and didn't appear to have any stamina. I at least got two hits in with my zwei, but it only did about 1/8 of his health.
Especially seeing as how the guy was throwing magic like a machine gun and didn't appear to have any stamina. I at least got two hits in with my zwei, but it only did about 1/8 of his health.
Laurentius
Member
Well, you can do that by just playing the game hollowed the entire time. Just turn human to light bonfires/kindle.
Personally, I got invaded so rarely on my first playthrough it was pretty fun for me when it happened. Although I could see how it could be frustrating in certain situations, or if it's constant. PC doesn't really have the constant invasions problem, though. =\
Speaking of invasions and PVP, can anyone give me some recommendations on the best PVP areas and levels on PC? I've heard Oolacile is one of the best. Is that still true? Is there a particular level to be that gives you the best chances of some PVP?
100-120 at Ooacile Township or Undead Burg
Laurentius
Member
Thanks. I'm level 109 still in NG+, so maybe I'll hang out in Undead Burg for awhile tonight and see if I can get any PVP happening. (Haven't made it to Oolacile Township in this playthrough yet.)
AnonymousTipster
Neo Member
Is Kiln of the First Flame still popular on PC? It's always pretty busy on 360.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Erm... right. By the time you reach those stronger weapons you will very likely have already cleared the Burg and Parish. Which makes your point... moot.
lol? You pretty much admit you distorted my argument, and then you say "let's not go down this path"? I'm lost. Oh well.
I don't believe you.
Yes and no. IMO the non-scaling causes two problems: overly powerful low-level characters and a much easier game, and the low-level griefing I was talking about. They are two different things but (mostly) caused by the same design choice (which I see as a flaw).
Black knight weapons have pretty hefty requirements, so I'm not bothered by them. And they are heavy, and come with a specific (and fairly slow, except for the gaxe, which comes later) moveset. I have never been invaded at low-levels by a black knight weapon user, but lightning rapiers? You bet. BK weapons have drawbacks, lightning/chaos rapiers don't.
Cooping is already framed as an optional and circumstantial experience so that's not an issue. However, if every boss came with a super-powerful summoned NPC that would mop the floor with the boss, then yes, I'd object, because those wouldn't be circumstantial, and even if they'd be optional, they'd be too much of a crutch (basically the same way I'd object to a "press X to win for free!" button even if it's "optional"). In fact, I'm a little annoyed than to get Beatrice's sign for the 4 Kings, you have to summon her prior to that. She makes the already easy Butterfly fight completely farcical so I'd rather not summon her, but I don't mind having her around for the 4 Kings since she almost makes them harder, lol. Guess it's a trade-off...
True, but even an experienced PvPer still has no chance and that's a problem.
lol, no way. It's not unsupported, I've experienced it, and I'm pretty decent at PvP. It might be better since the patch now that the flip ring and elemental weapons have been nerfed, but pre-patch, absolutely not. Backstabs doing 50-60 damage a pop, normal hits doing obviously even less on poise-heavy ninja flippers, and you get OHKOed. Like I said in a previous post, unless you get lucky and backstab him off a cliff (I've done that) OR successfully chain-BS him 10 times in a row, it's not gonna happen. Sure, you could be pedantic and say you DO have a chance even if that chance is about 1%, but I prefer to stick to facts. An experienced Dark Souls player starting a new toon sans BB glitch using +0 equipment and getting invaded in the Burg by a ninja flipping MoM-wearing lightning rapier ascended pyro dude will die in 2 hits at the most, 99% of the time, and the invader will take about 10 times as many hits as the level's boss.
Obviously, this doesn't bother you, but a lot of people, like myself, find it tiresome and wished it had been handled differently. I also do not believe for a second that From intended this to happen, since the majority of those griefers are BB-glitchers anyway (their presence exploded after this glitch became known on youtube) and the unlimited invade-anywhere item is hidden and comes much later in the game. The presence of early cracked eye orbs also suggests low-level invasions were not meant to look the way they do.
Oh, one more thing: funny how you somewhat concede the point regarding Abyss sorceries, and yet... the requirements for them are fairly low. Only Pursuers has high requirements (and a Sorcerer can theoretically already use them at SL 20 only). Though I admit, they'd be quite challenging to obtain at such low levels even with with duped equipment, hah.
So whatever decision From takes is "there for clear reasons", but any even slightly different kind of design is "arbitrary" because... it's not like that in game? That's called circular reasoning, friend.
If they had SL thresholds for a pyro glove in Dark Souls 2, it will be "part of the design" and "there for a reason" and therefore not arbitrary, by your own logic.
Or, anything they patched later.Anyway, I already explained what my reasons would be for including such a thing, so it's obviously not arbitrary. You might not agree with the idea but that doesn't make it arbitrary. Also, I'm not clinging to this SL requirement like it's the ultimate solution to everything, but if it's implemented (intelligently) in a future game I'd find it an excellent idea. Also, sometimes I do wonder about the pyro glove... it does scale with INT, but for the... melee attack? Wat. Really, From? I'm guessing this was an oversight (or perhaps something leftover from when they changed it to Souls-payment upgrades and forgot to remove), because it makes no sense. No one uses the pyro glove's melee attack, and since it's a melee fist "weapon" it makes no sense that it'd scale with INT. Hmmmmm.
Because Demon's Souls had no such issues, or on a massively lower scale. *shrugs*
Oh, that's fine, I don't care. I also use sarcasm "pretty casually". Just saying... ^^
I never experienced this input lag myself though I hear about it... I thought patch 1.05 fixed that? Anyway, I completely agree regarding the backstabs, they are broken as all hell (ironically they'd also be the only way to defeat the griefers I've been talking about xD). It's funny how the "lagstabs" were so bad in Demon's Souls, and yet Dark Souls, despite having less lag, broke the backstab mechanism even more. The reason for that is simply the roll-cancel being gone (what you called the vacuum stabs), making BSes easier than ever to pull, and of course the poise-stabs and chain-BSes. Shame, really, I was into DeS PvP for a loooong time, but DkS had just too many flaws PvP-wise (not even talking about griefing anymore either!).
So, bed of chaos, this fight seems pretty, well uh.. Anyway, any advice on getting past his swipe when the only thing left is his dumb stupid face left? (I have both left and right sides gone and the floor is out). I just can't get to the root to jump down there. He swipes and I'll dodge it if I'm lucky once, but the other hits me and stuns me and he'll burn me up. I must have run back 20 times now.
EDIT: And now I feel the stupid, for some reason I thought they were unblockable. Came in and blocked right after posting this and got right through. I'll slink away now...
EDIT: And now I feel the stupid, for some reason I thought they were unblockable. Came in and blocked right after posting this and got right through. I'll slink away now...
AnonymousTipster
Neo Member
You can bait the swipes, dodge back out of the way, and then absolutely haul ass and jump onto the root in the pit.
And yeah, Bed of Chaos is so bad From Soft has apologized for it.
Wow that's pretty funny about Chaos.
I 'finished' the game tonight. Kiln was a little sparse and not too difficult but what a great looking level. Killed Gwyn on my second try, it was actually kind of nice after the last few cheesy boss fights/levels in the latter part of the game. Almost like Kiln/Gwyn was a reward for getting through everything
Even with some of the more frustrating elements this is still probably my favorite game this generation. I'm really glad I got to play it with a great framerate and high resolution. Once again thanks Durante, and everyone here for the help.
I 'finished' the game tonight. Kiln was a little sparse and not too difficult but what a great looking level. Killed Gwyn on my second try, it was actually kind of nice after the last few cheesy boss fights/levels in the latter part of the game. Almost like Kiln/Gwyn was a reward for getting through everything
Even with some of the more frustrating elements this is still probably my favorite game this generation. I'm really glad I got to play it with a great framerate and high resolution. Once again thanks Durante, and everyone here for the help.
AnonymousTipster
Neo Member
Wow that's pretty funny about Chaos.
I 'finished' the game tonight. Kiln was a little sparse and not too difficult but what a great looking level. Killed Gwyn on my second try, it was actually kind of nice after the last few cheesy boss fights/levels in the latter part of the game. Almost like Kiln/Gwyn was a reward for getting through everything
Even with some of the more frustrating elements this is still probably my favorite game this generation. I'm really glad I got to play it with a great framerate and high resolution. Once again thanks Durante, and everyone here for the help.
In terms of aesthetics and atmosphere the Kiln might be my favorite area in the game. It gets me every time, no matter how many times I've reached it.
I think Gwyn's a little easier than he should be, but again in terms of aesthetics they completely nailed that fight. The music. Oh man.
Wow that's pretty funny about Chaos.
I 'finished' the game tonight. Kiln was a little sparse and not too difficult but what a great looking level. Killed Gwyn on my second try, it was actually kind of nice after the last few cheesy boss fights/levels in the latter part of the game. Almost like Kiln/Gwyn was a reward for getting through everything
Even with some of the more frustrating elements this is still probably my favorite game this generation. I'm really glad I got to play it with a great framerate and high resolution. Once again thanks Durante, and everyone here for the help.
Gwyn is such a great fight. One last skill check before they let you finish the game.
Laurentius
Member
Am I the only person who actually had quite a bit of trouble with Gwyn? He's just so aggressive, made it so hard to get in a heal. And I'm bad at parrying.
Played a bunch of PVP in Undead Burg tonight. Won about two matches out of around 20. Haha.
Played a bunch of PVP in Undead Burg tonight. Won about two matches out of around 20. Haha.
Had a relatively lag-free PvP session today, the invader at the end is ironically hilarious.
toddhunter
Member
I did, although any boss you can get to relatively quickly isn't a problem for too long. Like others say, every time I lost it was because I got greedy or made a mistake so it was still pretty cool.
I didn't really know about parries so just had to figure it out. Using the rocks to block his attacks was the way I eventually got through it.
TBH parries are still okay at the current state since it's not hard to avoid them and there are some effective approaches to punish them. It's the backstabs that need to be fixed:
- Make backstab possible only with small weapons (daggers, rapiers, swords...). Doing backstab with big weapons doesn't make any sens
- Fix the lag: how many times I see my opponent circling with his back in front of me but it's only a visual thing because actually he is behind me.
- Reduce the angle and distance to perform a backstab like you said. Demon's Souls was better in that respect even if it wasn't perfect either.
They already reduced BS damage but parries as well. I don't think that's a smart move because while BS are easier to do, parries have a risk and harder to perform.
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
I recently got Dark Souls on PC and I cannot believe how good it is to play a game that doesn't treat you like a child again.
I wasn't prepared to die but I've enjoyed dying. Sort of anyway.
I was so happy to beat Ornstein and Smough.
I wasn't prepared to die but I've enjoyed dying. Sort of anyway.
I was so happy to beat Ornstein and Smough.
Red Liquorice
Member
lol.Had a relatively lag-free PvP session today, the invader at the end is ironically hilarious.
Divine weapons scale with Faith, so if you are putting a lot of stat points into faith, have a look at what weapons scale well with faith, and those are the best to chose from. Same goes for Occult (also scales with Faith) and Magic/Enchanted (scales with Int for magic using characters).
Divine weapons also kill the skeletons in the Catacombs, without having to kill the Necromancers first.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
They're only good if you have a heavy faith based build or want to stop the skeletons in the catacombs from resurrecting.
Yeah, the ending was too perfect. xD
I found that healing was a waste of time. I'd get hit every time and miss an opportunity for an attack. I just gave up on it and decided to take a 'dont get hit' approach.
When I did it in my SL1 no upgrade (first boss I beat in that entire playthrough, I only purchased a reinforced club, no rings), my problem was to reach the boss. Once there I was able to beat it first try but for once, he was an actual boss who didn't fall in 6 seconds.
Yep, I used the Reinforced Club when I did my SL1 no upgrade too, didn't know Pinwheel took bleed damage until then. I used rings though since I did it later on.
But man, this SL4 run was brutal. I didn't use any resin, and it was basically ENB rules (no healing, starting equip, no elemental, etc). And I just couldn't get a damn break with those fucking clones double shotting me from off camera, constantly. And the damn Bonewheels started to wear on my nerves after a while. I think it was 70ish dmg with no Red Tearstone and 100 with it, so I had to go for a long stretch without getting shot from off camera, without healing. Sucks almost as much as the Moonlight Butterfly...
I agree with everything except make backstabs only possible with small weapons. Strength weapons would be even worse!
The_Hitcher89
Member
When playing through at SL1, what do you spend the souls on? Or do you just have to accept that you'll regularly be losing 100,000+ souls?
Also, what's a deprived run?
Also, what's a deprived run?
Green blossoms, other consumables... and yeah, you just don't really care about your souls. Deprived run means playing through as deprived class (naked, all stats 11, club). Harder than SL1 if you don't allow pyro, armor, etc
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
lol, is that so? Any link? (If you were joking, my bad, but I believe you... xD)
You could spend them on (assuming your "rules" allow these kinds of uses) pyro glove upgrades, titanite, pyromancies (some of Quelana's are expensive), crossbow bolts, green blossoms, resin buffs, and... yeah that's pretty much it.
When doing the "whale force" (starting class role-playing), we were capping our levelling up at certain thresholds, and even with all the above, we racked up souls pretty fast. Even though they aren't that useful it was always scary to leave a bloodstain because not only it had tons of souls on it, with all the coop we did it always had tons of humanity on it too.
What's the problem with strength weapons? They are still my favorite.
It's actually easier to parry a fast weapon using the shield/taking 1 hit technique, but you can't parry most of the 2H R2 str weapons attacks. Besides they are the best for stunlock and do ton of damage with less investment compared to the other stat builds (27-34 str is enough).
I think the game is currently well balanced between these 3 builds (str, dex and quality).