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[Corpsepyre]

Batman v Superman: How I surprised myself & fell in love with this film

Watch this, guys. Great watch.

Note, this has spoilers, AND it can get quite emotional around the 11 minute mark.

 

[a916]

Batman v Superman: How I surprised myself & fell in love with this film

Watch this, guys. Great watch.

Note, this has spoilers, AND it can get quite emotional around the 11 minute mark.

Now that's a gut punch. We already know Snyder said

Spoiler

they plan on using his death to make him more human/connected to humanity and we already know at the ending that Batman rises again at the end.

Batmans murdering is just one more piece of garbage on the heap that is BvS. Nolans movies were great, well paced and above all coherent films. If a shot happens were it was unclear if batman killed or not, it didn't matter because it was a still good. Snyder presented the audience with a dry, overcooked steak that was way over seasoned. The side of potatoes just so happen to taste bad, and added to the problem. Batman killing people in Nolan movies were unintentional side effects due to how it was shot, and the theme was preserved. Snyder just gave no fucks to character or theme when Bat man is gunning down criminals.

Edit: How do you even do Red hood in this universe? Like if Jason Todd captured Joker to be killed, I assume batman would high five him before blowing Jokers brains out.

Or... it makes more sense to see a Batman reform at the end and be that perfect guy to tell Red Hood why you can't do that anymore because he's been there before.

 

[Penguin]

I will say this, and don't wanna start a pissing match

But I do find the discussion, as a whole, to be much more intriguing coming out of this then most MCU films. Not saying it's been good, but it's been a much more... deep discussion, I guess.

 

[Lord Virgin]

Batmans murdering is just one more piece of garbage on the heap that is BvS. Nolans movies were great, well paced and above all coherent films. If a shot happens were it was unclear if batman killed or not, it didn't matter because it was a still good. Snyder presented the audience with a dry, overcooked steak that was way over seasoned. The side of potatoes just so happen to taste bad, and added to the problem. Batman killing people in Nolan movies were unintentional side effects due to how it was shot, and the theme was preserved. Snyder just gave no fucks to character or theme when Bat man is gunning down criminals.

Edit: How do you even do Red hood in this universe? Like if Jason Todd captured Joker to be killed, I assume batman would high five him before blowing Jokers brains out.

Nolan also did not give a fuck as long as it made for a cool shot. On top of that he pretty much lied to his audience about the character but the character lies to himself constantly. I won't kill you but I don't have to save you either is dumb as fuck and makes no sense. He put him in that situation, he is responsible for his death. But unintentional, right?

Or how about blowing up that compound and killing dozens of members of the LOS and the farmer as well? Ohh well unintentional. Talia and her driver? Fuck this, I want that bomb and if it means killing you two; tough shit. Chasing the Joker...hey innocent truck driver, you are in my way. Wrecking you and your car, unintentional though. Harvey, I liked you but that kid must live. Soooo, bye *tackles him to his death*. If you find all of his kills excusable...well then. Must not be so hard to come up with excuses for Batfleck, right?

 

[DecoReturns]

Come on. Let's not start dissing Nolan's films or BvS about

Spoiler

Batman Killing

.

Besides,

Spoiler

"I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you" is the same as Batflick calming down in BvS ending, because Bale saved the Joker in TDK perhaps realizing he went too far,

that's how I say it.

I'm gonna add spoilers just in case.

 

[Firemind]

I can't even remember Talia's death scene. The only thing I remember is that he carries the nuke to the ocean which somehow doesn't destroy Gotham by the resulting shockwave, tsunami and fallout, much less Bruce's death. :lol

God, Rises was such a forgettable movie.

 

[Poodlestrike]

I can't even remember Talia's death scene. The only thing I remember is that he carries the nuke to the ocean which somehow doesn't destroy Gotham by the resulting shockwave, tsunami and fallout, much less Bruce's death. :lol

God, Rises was such a forgettable movie.

You don't remember the infamous "suddenly sleepy" scene.

 

[jackdoe]

You don't remember the infamous "suddenly sleepy" scene.

That scene was more offensive than anything in Batman v Superman, and I actually really liked The Dark Knight Rises.

 

[strafer]

You don't remember the infamous "suddenly sleepy" scene.

Best acting ever!

 

[DecoReturns]

Rises was such a forgettable movie.

Unfortunately this is how I feel about BvS.
Only the beginning was memeorable to me and the

Spoiler

Flash Cameo

I really want to see that Directors cut, see why this was a passable version.

 

[Cooter]

I will say this, and don't wanna start a pissing match

But I do find the discussion, as a whole, to be much more intriguing coming out of this then most MCU films. Not saying it's been good, but it's been a much more... deep discussion, I guess.

This isn't even debatable. Part of the reason I like how DC is approaching things. I really enjoy MCU movies but the moment the movie ends I don't think about it again.

 

[Firemind]

You don't remember the infamous "suddenly sleepy" scene.

Does he kill her with a gun? idk wouldn't surprise me. Bale's Bruce is a dumbass.

 

[ShemhazaiX]

You know, I think the worst part about this entire ordeal surrounding this movie isn't how badly it's received. It's that as soon as you even imply a Zack Snyder film may have depth, people deride the stance without giving any kind of satisfying reasoning.

This is probably the most interesting and deep comic book movie I've actually seen, based purely on the themes, symbolism and how the viewer can interpret things. And at no point does it treat the viewer like an idiot. We're given zero exposition but all the information we need. From Lex's speech meltdown to the references to Batman's past.

But no. It's a Zack Snyder movie. Zack Snyder isn't smart enough to have "depth".

 

[Bleepey]

Nolan also did not give a fuck as long as it made for a cool shot. On top of that he pretty much lied to his audience about the character but the character lies to himself constantly. I won't kill you but I don't have to save you either is dumb as fuck and makes no sense. He put him in that situation, he is responsible for his death. But unintentional, right?

Or how about blowing up that compound and killing dozens of members of the LOS and the farmer as well? Ohh well unintentional. Talia and her driver? Fuck this, I want that bomb and if it means killing you two; tough shit. Chasing the Joker...hey innocent truck driver, you are in my way. Wrecking you and your car, unintentional though. Harvey, I liked you but that kid must live. Soooo, bye *tackles him to his death*. If you find all of his kills excusable...well then. Must not be so hard to come up with excuses for Batfleck, right?

I have said this before except with much fewer examples. Thank you!

 

[VanWinkle]

Batman being brutal or killing people is presented in-universe as a recent development, one that he effectively renounces at the end of the movie. This Batman can talk to him about how he understands, how he's actually been there before.

Spoiler

What happens where he effectively renounces killing at the end? I can't remember. Like what did he say?

 

[guek]

This isn't even debatable. Part of the reason I like how DC is approaching things. I really enjoy MCU movies but the moment the movie ends I don't think about it again.

Marvel movies tend to not make a statement. I don't think Nolan's films made much of any either, tbh, they're just really well made movies.

Snyder, however, always makes a statement. Whether you agree with that statement or not is another matter. And often times, just like in his interviews in real life, those statements are not always the most eloquent or well structured.

 

[Firemind]

Spoiler

What happens where he effectively renounces killing at the end? I can't remember. Like what did he say?

Something like

Spoiler

"I failed you when you were alive. I won't fail you after death."

 

[Yager]

Spoiler

What happens where he effectively renounces killing at the end? I can't remember. Like what did he say?

Spoiler

The speech at the end basically says that, but not literally. With Supes sacrifice, Batman is able to see the good side of men, and that reminds him of the hero he used to be, the hero he's supposed to be.

At least that's what I took from it.

 

[jackdoe]

You know, I think the worst part about this entire ordeal surrounding this movie isn't how badly it's received. It's that as soon as you even imply a Zack Snyder film may have depth, people deride the stance without giving any kind of satisfying reasoning.

This is probably the most interesting and deep comic book movie I've actually seen, based purely on the themes, symbolism and how the viewer can interpret things. And at no point does it treat the viewer like an idiot. We're given zero exposition but all the information we need. From Lex's speech meltdown to the references to Batman's past.

But no. It's a Zack Snyder movie. Zack Snyder isn't smart enough to have "depth".

To be fair though, with the same script and a director with a firmer grasp on story telling capable of showing restraint, this movie would not have gotten the reception it got. In fact, it would probably have been universally lauded as one of the best superhero movies ever made. The movie is firmly a character piece, and the fact that the few action sequences in the movie can feel excessive and sometimes out of place confirms this.

 

[VanWinkle]

Something like

Spoiler

"I failed you when you were alive. I won't fail you after death."

Spoiler

The speech at the end basically says that, but not literally. With Supes sacrifice, Batman is able to see the good side of men, and that reminds him of the hero he used to be, the hero he's supposed to be.

At least that's what I took from it.

Oh, I didn't think of it like that, but I guess I can understand that interpretation. That makes sense.

 

[ShemhazaiX]

To be fair though, with the same script and a director with a firmer grasp on story telling capable of showing restraint, this movie would not have gotten the reception it got. In fact, it would probably have been universally lauded as one of the best superhero movies ever made. The movie is firmly a character piece, and the fact that the few action sequences in the movie can feel excessive and sometimes out of place confirms this.

This is my issue though. Every single clever bit of storytelling, or genius character detail or development is considered null and void just because "Lol Snyder". It may not be put together the best way (though, being honest, that's a complaint that I never understood, and maybe I'll understand it on my second viewing) but people act like trying to take the movie seriously as a piece of character drama is stupid.

 

[jackdoe]

This is my issue though. Every single clever bit of storytelling, or genius character detail or development is considered null and void just because "Lol Snyder". It may not be put together the best way (though, being honest, that's a complaint that I never understood, and maybe I'll understand it on my second viewing) but people act like trying to take the movie seriously as a piece of character drama is stupid.

It's very clear that Zack Snyder is trying to make the movie a character piece. He shows so much restraint in the first twenty to thirty minutes of the film, along with a firm grasp on story telling (to the point that even some of those that hated the movie can agree that those first thirty minutes were excellent). But he falters afterwards, and started to indulge in his excesses. Whether he did it to an extent that it became distracting is up to the viewer to decide. For me, he did, either by lingering too long a scene, not shooting the scene properly to give it enough subtext, or making an action sequence feel way too bombastic which in turn clashes with the tone that the film had established earlier

Spoiler

the Batmobile chase sequence is one example

.

 

[Pachimari]

Where the actor playing Cyborg in the movie? I don't think I noticed him.

Spoiler

It surely wasn't the scientist in the Cyborg surveillance video right? Because he looked much older than the actor himself.

 

[ShemhazaiX]

It's very clear that Zack Snyder is trying to make the movie a character piece. He shows so much restraint in the first twenty to thirty minutes of the film, along with a firm grasp on story telling (to the point that even some of those that hated the movie can agree that those first thirty minutes were excellent). But he falters afterwards, and started to indulge in his excesses. Whether he did it to an extent that it became distracting is up to the viewer to decide. For me, he did, either by lingering too long a scene, not shooting the scene properly to give it enough subtext, or making an action sequence feel way too bombastic which in turn clashes with the tone that the film had established earlier

Spoiler

the Batmobile chase sequence is one example

.

I agree there may be tonal clashes for some people. However, my point is less that he doesn't do anything wrong, and more that people mock the people who say he did anything right.

Also, holy shit that Rising Heroes video.

Spoiler

I didn't even notice how in the movie, for the first time after being asked who he is, Batman didn't say "I'm Batman", he says "I'm a friend of your sons". So good.

Where the actor playing Cyborg in the movie? I don't think I noticed him.

Spoiler

He was in the email cameos where his dying torso was strapped to the wall as the motherbox rebuilt him.

 

[Pachimari]

Spoiler

He was in the email cameos where his dying torso was strapped to the wall as the motherbox rebuilt him.

Ah yeah okay.

Spoiler

I just didn't think they used the actor himself for that part.

Another thing I didn't pick up on: Why were Bruce Wayne sending

Spoiler

letters to Lex Luthor, only for Luthor to send them back?

 

[Firemind]

Oh, I didn't think of it like that, but I guess I can understand that interpretation. That makes sense.

I really need to watch it again. The dialogue was dope, but for the life of me I can't recite most of it. :lol

Spoiler

I really liked Lex's monologue on top of the tower. That was a good villain moment for him. And the court room. And his comment about the painting. Even though he may have betrayed Lex's character, he was a great villain. Unpredictable, deranged, well-spoken, intelligent. Everything I ask for in a villain.

 

[BadAss2961]

I will say this, and don't wanna start a pissing match

But I do find the discussion, as a whole, to be much more intriguing coming out of this then most MCU films. Not saying it's been good, but it's been a much more... deep discussion, I guess.

This was always going to be the case.

Marvel makes safe movies where the discussion just boils down to whether you enjoyed it or not.

 

[RDreamer]

Ah yeah okay.

Spoiler

I just didn't think they used the actor himself for that part.

Another thing I didn't pick up on: Why were Bruce Wayne sending

Spoiler

letters to Lex Luthor, only for Luthor to send them back?

Spoiler

Bruce's company was sending checks to the crippled guy. Luthor was intercepting and sending them back.

 

[ShemhazaiX]

Ah yeah okay.

Spoiler

I just didn't think they used the actor himself for that part.

Another thing I didn't pick up on: Why were Bruce Wayne sending

Spoiler

letters to Lex Luthor, only for Luthor to send them back?

Spoiler

He wasn't sending letters to Luthor. He was sending money to his crippled employee. Luthor intercepted the cheques and sent them back with the messages written on so that he could manipulate Batman's emotions.

 

[Poodlestrike]

Ah yeah okay.

Spoiler

I just didn't think they used the actor himself for that part.

Another thing I didn't pick up on: Why were Bruce Wayne sending

Spoiler

letters to Lex Luthor, only for Luthor to send them back?

Those were checks he was sending to whatshiface, the guy who lost his legs. So in addition to everything else, Lex is commuting mail fraud.

And that's terrible.

 

[SENPAIatLARGE]

Are we really doing the "DC movies are too deep for the kids that watch Marvel" bs? Marvel has taken far more risks than anything since MoS. Guardians of the Galaxy, Ant-Man and Iron Man 1 were all unique movies with risks.

 

[ShemhazaiX]

Are we really doing the "DC movies are too deep for the kids that watch Marvel" bs? Marvel has taken far more risks than anything since MoS. Guardians of the Galaxy, Ant-Man and Iron Man 1 were all unique movies with risks.

Some people might be. I'm just saying that people are shutting down any conversation about the depth of this movie because of the director.

However, your argument is incoherent. If people are saying "DC movies are deeper than Marvel", you do not refute that by saying Guardians, Ant-Man and Iron Man are risks. Risk does not equal depth.

 

[BadAss2961]

To be fair though, with the same script and a director with a firmer grasp on story telling capable of showing restraint, this movie would not have gotten the reception it got. In fact, it would probably have been universally lauded as one of the best superhero movies ever made. The movie is firmly a character piece, and the fact that the few action sequences in the movie can feel excessive and sometimes out of place confirms this.

The problem is the structure. The performances, the action, the drama, the score, and the premise is all there. It just really feels like parts were missing the way the film abruptly jumps from one beat to the next.

Spoiler

When Batman wears the armored suit and turns on the bat signal, I was like "wut? already?" I didn't even catch the building of the suit, which i've seen Alfred working on in set photos.

The more those extra 30 minutes piece together the film, the more it'll sting.

 

[VanWinkle]

Are we really doing the "DC movies are too deep for the kids that watch Marvel" bs? Marvel has taken far more risks than anything since MoS. Guardians of the Galaxy, Ant-Man and Iron Man 1 were all unique movies with risks.

Why are you equating risks with depth? Those movies were risks, and I enjoy them all, but they aren't deep.

 

[The Driver]

Is there a novelization of BvS out there? I wonder if it would fix some of the problems in it.

You would lose the goat visuals tho

 

[jackdoe]

The problem is the structure. The performances, the action, the drama, the score, and the premise is all there. It just really feels like parts were missing the way the film abruptly jumps from one beat to the next.

Spoiler

When Batman wears the armored suit and turns on the bat signal, I was like "wut? already?" I didn't even catch the building of the suit, which i've seen Alfred working on in set photos.

The more those extra 30 minutes piece together the film, the more it'll sting.

If it really does piece together the movie, then I'll be upset. They could have cut out the entire Knightmare sequence and replaced it with that extra 30 minutes and still turned in a theatrical cut that was under 3 hours (and included the Knightmare scene with the Ultimate cut where it belongs).

 

[broncobuster]

Marvel movies tend to not make a statement. I don't think Nolan's films made much of any either, tbh, they're just really well made movies.

Snyder, however, always makes a statement. Whether you agree with that statement or not is another matter. And often times, just like in his interviews in real life, those statements are not always the most eloquent or well structured.

Can't say I disagree with the second point. It's, if you segment by what the popular criticisms are, I'm part of the botched execution group. There's another group that, you know, can't jive with Singer's X-Men films for a specific reason. Growing up with various interpretations of characters and elseworld tales, I try not to judge the changes made by the film adaptation, if what's there works. Then there's another group that pushes the idea superhero movies must be fun in a nebulous sense. What disappoints me about Snyder's MoS and BvS, although the latter is more successful imo, is how on intriguing it is on paper. Many of the visuals you catch in trailers and clips can be super evocative. But it simply doesn't come together in the end for me. It's an enchanting mess. Also why I put some hope in the extended cut.

 

[a916]

Marvel movies tend to not make a statement. I don't think Nolan's films made much of any either, tbh, they're just really well made movies.

Snyder, however, always makes a statement. Whether you agree with that statement or not is another matter. And often times, just like in his interviews in real life, those statements are not always the most eloquent or well structured.

Which is why I feel this dude needs to stay on as a producer. His ideas are grand but I don't think he can pull them off as well as someone with more talent could.

 

[SENPAIatLARGE]

Some people might be. I'm just saying that people are shutting down any conversation about the depth of this movie because of the director.

However, your argument is incoherent. If people are saying "DC movies are deeper than Marvel", you do not refute that by saying Guardians, Ant-Man and Iron Man are risks. Risk does not equal depth.

I was more replying to the guy that said Marvel movies are "safe". Each Marvel movie has its own distinct theme, settings and character arcs, The over arcing theme of government control over personal right and volition, and the question of what defines freedom in Captain America WS has far more depth than Superman as Christ rising on the third day.

 

[Kenzodielocke]

No Superhero movie is deep. Just freaks, dressed like clowns.

 

[Lord Virgin]

I was more replying to the guy that said Marvel movies are "safe". Each Marvel movie has its own distinct theme, settings and character arcs, The over arcing theme of government control over personal right and volition, and the question of what defines freedom in Captain America WS has far more depth than Superman as Christ rising on the third day.

I like how you use the pretty much only example (maybe the PTSD stuff from IM3 if you want to include it) that kinda, sorta touched a certain theme (government control) but at the end was just another shallow attempt at something more than it really was. While underplaying the themes in MoS/BvS.

 

[Firemind]

IM1 isn't that risky with RDJ in the leading role. I'm actually more angry about the fact they didn't have enough faith in the MCU to pay Terence Howard whatever he wanted for the sequel. I love Don Cheadle, but he's pretty much a joke character in IM2 and IM3. Hm. Maybe Howard dodged a bullet there.

 

[RDreamer]

While underplaying the themes in MoS/BvS.

Not only underplaying them, but that wasn't even actually a theme of this movie at all. Could it be a theme in a future movie

Spoiler

when Superman is resurrected obviously

? Sure it could be, but it isn't here.

 

[thehypocrite]

All these discussions makes me want to see it a third time in cinemas. So much to peel over.

 

[Penguin]

I wasn't trying to turn this into a Marvel vs DC thing.

Just like most of the discussion around Marvel films is like, was it good or bad, what scenes did you like, sometimes... they can't make compelling villains or the 3rd act feels so good.

And BvS... just seems to have a broader sense of discussion, again not always good... mostly not good.

 

[witness]

Finally got my movie money from the Microsoft deal last week. 3rd viewing, this time in IMAX 2D, is in order this weekend.

 

[IconGrist]

I just want to make this clear. Nolan's Batman killing is fine because you liked the movie and Snyder's Batman killing is bad because you didn't like the movie is easily the dumbest thing I've heard yet regarding this movie. And there's been a lot of dumb shit said about this movie.

 

[Ninjimbo]

I finally saw the movie....came out the theater about an hour ago and I loved every minute of it. Putting it plainly, the movie is terrific entertainment.

I can see the discussion has already evolved beyond initial reactions, but suffice to say the critics were DEAD wrong on this movie.

Snyder has no peers when it comes to directing these kinds of movies.

 

[SENPAIatLARGE]

I just want to make this clear. Nolan's Batman killing is fine because you liked the movie and Snyder's Batman killing is bad because you didn't like the movie is easily the dumbest thing I've heard yet regarding this movie. And there's been a lot of dumb shit said about this movie.

I argued that point poorly. Using a quote from Snyder, Baleman is committing manslaughter at worst.(Not including his ninja days, that was murder). But Batman after his time with Ra's al Ghul never has killing intent. The deaths he causes are never lingered on, and could even be argued that some did not happen. Him tackling Harvey was not to murder him, but Harvey was killed in the process. This haunts him for 8 years till TDKR. Batman also did not kill Talia, and her death was an accident of her doing. On the contrary, Batffleck guns down and stabs criminals in the chest. He also uses the Batmobile to shoot them directly, and Baleman always shot around people, not killing them. Nolans Batman is consistent and is actively trying not to kill people, so its way easier to right off the incidental deaths as mistakes in the way the movie is shot or we just didn't see the thug get up in a later shot. Affleck gives no fucks, and will stop someone no matter what. To me, Batman doesn't kill, and he's not a lethal enforcer. There are so many arcs covering this one specific trait, and to see Snyder piss it all away so he can have his stylish action shots is infuriating. It makes no sense why Joker is alive in this universe.., and that's a shame.

 

[Yager]

Oh, I didn't think of it like that, but I guess I can understand that interpretation. That makes sense.

2deep4you m8

Seriously now, I think there are lots of things regarding the script and dialogue that most people don't get because they're used to having "dumb" CBM that use exposition for every single thing. Not that BvS is an example of deep writing and ideas (altough in a way I think it is, just poorly executed), but I found it to be a smarter movie than other from the same genre.