It's dumb but it's the reality we live in
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DC Cinematic Universe |OT| Superfriends with Benefits
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It's dumb but it's the reality we live in
Good to see another lover here. As I said before, I haven't been that enthralled with a comic book movie since Watchmen. I loved it all the way through. Good to see at least a few others are in the same boat. It's weird coming back to a world that just despises something you ended up loving so much, but whatever. Different tastes I suppose.
I might also have a weird predisposition to loving this movie since Watchmen is still my favorite CBM and one of my other favorite movies of all time is actually Cloud Atlas. I might just like strange editing and scene jumping where others don't.
I don't think that at all. I think that some people don't understand parts of the movie because of poor execution on Zack Snyder's part. While you don't need to spoon feed exposition, you do need to execute well on subtext and that's where Snyder falters and where people might get confused.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Terence Howard is a joke character in real life though
I'm inclined to agree. It asks more from the viewer than most, though of course a lot of that is just down to not being terribly well put together.
We've had conversations about why Bruce goes into the cloud of smoke to save the little girl after the first trailer released... lol. I'd rank that as one of the dumbest things people have nitpicked about this movie.
SENPAIatLARGE
Banned
Thanks for reading my long response before making that post mate.
The problem here is Snyder's Batman isn't new. It's just an interpretation you don't like. Which is fine. Everyone has a definitive version of their favorite characters. But what you're arguing between the Nolan and Snyder presentations is semantics at best. Just because Nolan Bats didn't intend to kill doesn't absolve him of the act. If anything it makes him look sloppy or incompetent since he had such an issue with it. Snyder's version did these things almost deliberately so the same argument can't be used against him.
Little of Column A
Little of Column B
I've said some discussion on here and social media, which can easily be seen as people not paying attention to the movie.
At the same time, there are things in the movie that are clearly on the cutting room somewhere because either no real payoff or come out of nowhere.
What did he mean by this?
Member
Hope that weird deleted scene of Darkseid stuff released yesterday is the first of many leading up to Darkseid casting. No doubt he's already cast like JK Simmons
thehypocrite
Member
But he didn't kill KGbeast, he shots the gas tank and it starts to leak, the dude pulls the trigger a blows himself up when he tries to torch Martha. Plus, luthor, this is explained cause he's holding himself to a higher standard after failing to uphold the heroic ideal of sacrifice which he clearly explained to WW before that scene.
SENPAIatLARGE
Banned
What happened to us fans that made it ok for Batman and Superman to willfully kill people on screen, and respond with "that's fine",or "that was cool"? Superman vs the Elite was him showing the world what would happen if he killed villains like they demanded, and it created a powerful message. The team up film might be good, but with these character and their morals, it won't be a a Justice League. Snyder's making a Justice Lords movie.
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Lord Virgin
Unconfirmed Member
It's not real and I've never cared for those dumb rules, so for me it's that.
-Plasma Reus-
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I listened to a BBC radio program where Snyder was talking about his vision of Superman, I really love his willingness to employ things like this without being too scared to do it outright. It's something a comicbook artist would do. A certain kind of bravery.
thehypocrite
Member
What's exactly the point you are trying to make? Our moral failure as an audience, Snyder's or Nolan's? All batman's kill on films, what do you want us to do? We just roll with it cause it's a movie and context, motivations and nuance matter a lot in the way we explain and justify certain things.
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It's so terrible though. That's not who Superman is by any stretch of the imagination. Superman shouldn't be a mythic allegroy for God. He's just a guy trying his best to do what's right.
The most important part of Superman is the Man part and thars something that Snyder woeful doesn't understand.
SENPAIatLARGE
Banned
That's cool. I guess all comic books are dumb and pointless because they aren't real. I might as well toss out the Miles Morales and Captain America books I bought today.
I couldn't agree more. The moment I saw what Superman did in that opening I knew I was in for something I wasn't going to like.
I mean I understand with Batman, character development and what with being 20 years retired and all.
That's what he did though?
Snyder understands. It's Batman who doesn't understand in the movie.
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Lord Virgin
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, that is what I said. Sure.
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That's true, and I see Superman the same way. But I appreciate someone doing something like this. Moments like this is when he gets close to All Star Superman. To some people, Superman is more than just a normal guy doing the right thing, and that's what makes for an interesting debate we should all be having.
thehypocrite
Member
True, but if you try to portray him from the eyes of Humanity, our presumed perception of him, he is that allegory.
This isn't an opinion, the authors that created him have expressed this along many others. This isn't a movie about how Superman sees himself. Heck even MoS cinematography is subordinated to how a camera in the scene would see him, it's quite obvious that Superman is being observed through the lens of Humanity.
Exactly.
That's been kind of the whole point of Snyder's Superman. He's basically a human trying to do what's best and what that means in relation to society. Watch Man of Steel. That's practically the entire point of that movie. He grew up wanting to do good, and doing it when he could even though it meant being a pariah because of it.
Batman and humanity at large saw him as a god, because... well, because humanity fucking would.
BvS spoiler:
That's also part of what I saw in the ending. The "god" superman was buried with pomp and a parade. The real burial, though, was of a man in Kansas.
thehypocrite
Member
Them feels
Spoiler my post pls. I am dumb and forgot.
Caught it right away and edited. Sorry to anyone that might have been out there
Poodlestrike
Banned
I saw the man. He's not necessarily the one you're describing, but I saw a very human figure. One beset by doubt and unsure of his ability to live up to his potential, to his responsibilities. But he tries anyway.
True.
Who does Superman willfully kill on screen in this movie? Nobody, I don't think. There's a message there, where killing Zod is what crystallized his refusal to take another life.
edit: and oh man, RDreamer, that is a beautiful way of putting it.
Snyder shows bits of under standing with Clark wanting to investigate Batman. But then he does the scene where
Lois says Clark can't himself if he's with her.
I'm not a fan of how the film treats being Superman as being a burden when superman should be an ends to a means for Clark.
Cloud Atlas is a very cool movie. It is pretty strange and the editing is all over the place, but when it gets going, I think Cloud Atlas reaches highs that only special movies seem to do. I love that movie.
Regarding BvS, for all the talk about the editing in the first Act. I never really noticed it. It flowed extremely well for me. I was into every scene. My attention was on everything and I felt like time was wizzing by the whole time. I think it helped knowing that the movie was also going to be building the universe so any of the scenes doing that I took them as what they were supposed to be. I'm a big fan of One Piece and Oda spends entire chapters just building up that world. A lot of people criticize his pacing but I love the shit out of it.
BvS works for me on that level. I see the hints of a larger world and it gets me excited at all the possibilities. Wonder Woman was so ace here. I can't wait for her movie next year. I'm a little disappointed Snyder isn't directing it though lol.
I want Snyder to be in charge of everything now.
Inferno313
Banned
I know he later says: "I didn't kill any of those people" in the apartment to Lois, but in his opening scene, what exactly is supposed to have happened to that dude he flew through the wall?
As a big Superman fan here is what I love about Snyder's Superman that I don't love about Donner's.
Superman has no idea what he's doing. There is no frame of reference. There's no one else like him (at least as far as he knew) so he can't possibly know how to be this perfect Superman we as an audience demand. Between the events of MoS and how that lead to public perception of him in BvS to varying degrees he's learning bit by bit. The
incident I felt was instrumental in his understanding of just how large his responsibility is.
Donner's Superman didn't have to learn anything. He just came out perfect from the get go.
Superman has no idea what he's doing. There is no frame of reference. There's no one else like him (at least as far as he knew) so he can't possibly know how to be this perfect Superman we as an audience demand. Between the events of MoS and how that lead to public perception of him in BvS to varying degrees he's learning bit by bit. The
Capitol Hill
Donner's Superman didn't have to learn anything. He just came out perfect from the get go.
What's funny is I feel like that's a dynamic that's more like a god than a human. Having powers like Superman does and having to use them and decide how to use them and the struggle the goes along with that makes him human. Everything being hunky dory because he's got powers is not human. That's a god.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Not much? It's not exactly built to code. It's some shit shack in Ass End of Nowhere, Africa.
Seriously, I get why people think that something bad happened to that guy, but think back to it. Take out the music. Now play the events.
That shit's straight out of STAS, if not for the soundtrack making it sound so damn grim.
SENPAIatLARGE
Banned
I'm going to sound like a huge nerd, but it's disrespectful to this 75 year old character. Here's what I mean:
This is a parody of everything batman is not, and never should be.
In a way, Timm and Dini called this shit ages ago. They knew how to write dark stories without compromising what the character stood for. I don't know why people choose to forget. Gods of Egypt is disrespectful to its source material on top of being a bad movie. So is BvS.
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Lord Virgin
Unconfirmed Member
If we are going with source material, didn't Batman kill lots of people in his first appearance? Technically that IS the Batman.
That's definitely where execution hurt it. Had Snyder shown some restraint, had Superman be super without being excessive, then people wouldn't ever have come to that conclusion.
They also didn't show any of his growth. He walks in as young kid Clark, and the next scene is him in the Superman adult Clark already perfect.
thehypocrite
Member
The thing is, that in regards to comics there's no "source" material, just characters, authors and interpretations. Batman has killed people in comics and movies, Superman as well, they have been many things, even literal gods, so when you say they aren't faithful to the source material you are referring to the ones you are familiar and hold dear. Or as the cool kids say these days "nah mah badhtman/Supahman". That's a valid criticism and you can legitimately feel that way but the rationale presented to support it has more holes than the metropolis skyscrapers at the end of MoS.I'm going to sound like a huge nerd, but it's disrespectful to this 75 year old character. Here's what I mean:
This is a parody of everything batman is not, and never should be.
In a way, Timm and Dini called this shit ages ago. They knew how to write dark stories without compromising what the character stood for. I don't know why people choose to forget. Gods of Egypt is disrespectful to its source material on top of being a bad movie. So is BvS.
SENPAIatLARGE
Banned
He slams a human being thru multiple walls to stop him. He is superman and has the ability to disarm or stop any other way, without killing people. Clark could smile and be happy in every other interpretation because his parent s weren't actively misleading him from being a good person. So in some twisted way it makes sense he is this grim savior, when one dad tells him he's God, and his other parents tell him he is too good for this world. It's a damn shame one director could miss the point this much.
BadAss2961
Member
I wonder how much the events of BvS will be brought up in Suicide Squad.
(BvS spoilers)
(BvS spoilers)
Looking back at the comic-con trailer, Waller said that maybe Superman was some kind of beacon for others with abilities to creep back from the shadows. Now it's possible she could actually be speaking of him in the past tense of his death.
Awesome catch and it actually makes more sense.
Poodlestrike
Banned
That guy's not dead, though.
And Clark's parents were not the most inspiring figures, I'll grant you. They were very human, and very scared for their son.
SENPAIatLARGE
Banned
While there has been, multiple interpretations of Superman and Batman, the main and consistent one that has persisted the longest throughout the silver age into modern times do not kill. There has been elsewhere tales or side stories for sure that have explored the what ifs. But don't bullshit me and act like Batman and Superman have been regularly killing people in comics. Ask any comic can or casual if Batman kills and they'll tell you no. Acting like it's no big deal is tossing out ndecades of stories centered around these heroes moral codes. You guys are making me feel like old supes in infinite crisis.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Not to put too fine a point on it but the whole reason old Supes was disappointed in Infinite Crisis is because yes the heroes had been up to some EXTREMELY SHADY SHIT. The crap they did in Identity Crisis is worse than murder.
Batman gets a pass because a) live action Batman syndrome and b) this version of Batman actually has reasons and excuses. They're ultimately shown to be invalid, but the characters actions are consistent with his motivations.
Superman gets a pass because LITERALLY the only person he's killed is Zod.
And not for the first time.
thehypocrite
Member
So this Batman and Superman are regularly killing people in this movie? Don't play yourself....son.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
A article that's fitting to this discussion: http://comicodyssey.blogspot.com/2016/03/why-we-look-up-in-sky.html
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