Isn't the Knightmare sequence something that Terrio wanted out and then Snyder kept? Or maybe I'm remembering it wrong
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Isn't the Knightmare sequence something that Terrio wanted out and then Snyder kept? Or maybe I'm remembering it wrong
I have no idea... I can never remember that rumor stuff or where it comes from. This dude actually worked on the movie and I'll believe him over some "insider" story from a year ago.
I just finished listening to his whole interview and there is some cool stuff in there. Lots of stuff on SS which was cut with him on the Joker car. The warehouse scene was his pride and joy and they spent a week filming that with a full day dedicated to the 1 on 4 mini fight. The knightmare sequence he wishes he was better in due to him having some family stuff come up the night before and he only had an hour of sleep before spending all day filming that scene in some extreme heat. He cringes watching it cause he sees all the mistakes and how low impact he was. They shot the full sequence in only a day in a half, that's how late it came into the script. He said they shot it about midway through filming the movie.
Yeah, we knew that already.
Via Collider:
"In an interview that will be on Collider soon, producer Deborah Snyder revealed to us that this Flash sequence didnt become part of the movies script until the middle of production, when Zack Snyder and Co. were in the midst of developing the outline for Justice League and Snyder sparked to the idea of including this bridge of sorts between the two movies. So this makes us think that well get to see the other side of this Flash sequence in that 2017 superhero team-up film.
The big question is whether the first Knightmare is a dream, a glimpse into the future, or an alternate reality, as any of the three could be plausible. Again its unclear at this juncture, but clearly Snyder and screenwriter Chris Terrio were aiming to tease the larger DC Expanded Universe and contention between Batman and Superman beyond this first film. How will it all play out? Perhaps well find out when Justice League hits theaters on November 17, 2017."
The video interview with Collider / Deborah.
That said, this seems to be focused on the Flash cameo and the Wonder Woman photo.
I'm inclined to believe the Knightmare sequence was always in the script in broad strokes. The movie needs the tyrant angle for Batman and the groundwork for the "my world" theme. I'm guessing Goyer had the tyrant idea, Terrio tweaked the dialogue, then I think the alteration that makes it consistent with the stuntman interview is that it changed from a pure dialogue / tension scene into that + action.
The film already has supernatural tension (Batman's first dream lifted by bats, then the Bat monster) and dialogue scenes... after Metropolis / Nairomi it's nothing but dialogue. You can imagine a version of the knightmare that puts an emphasis on what happens in the bunker with the action being largely unseen / VFX because it's Superman wiping out Batman's rebellion like a horror-movie monster, thus little stuntwork.
Then Snyder decides to tie the dystopia to Darkseid, amp up the Heavy Metal, make it a continuous one-shot fight scene... and now it's added back to the script for stunts.
b&jy77VjiKn$#F
Member
so it's snyder's fault, huh
What fault? The stuntman blames himself for the performance. Snyder gave him a chance to work.
He does that for all the people he works with. The alternative is a VFX scene where Bruce gets lifted up by an unseen Superman while in the back of the truck ambush, knocked out, wakes up in the tunnel, and stunts doesn't get to work.
If you mean the scene existing at all, I'm confident a version existed in the script initially, just not one that involved stunts. Regarding it's placement and editing... there's a long interview with the editor of BvS about that, Lex's scenes, etc... that's not on Snyder either.
Basically, Snyder took something already there- Superman as tyrant- and added Darkseid, parademons, and action- things basically no one complains about.
Got a link to the editors interview?
I do place blame on Snyder for not recognizing the poor choreography though. If you rewatch it it's exactly how the stuntman says, slow and unimpactful. I've never seen any other fight scene from Snyder be like that. I wonder if there's a chance he didn't actually shoot it himself
That was the scene shot in IMAX right? I get the sense that they were too busy trying to capture the scope of it, and maybe didn't pay enough attention to the focus of Batman himself, or the details. I mean, ultimately it's not an AWFUL scene. It has the desired impact, but if you zoom in on Batman's movements it does seem a little awkward, sure.
Yea that's the one. I enjoyed it overall. It's just on repeats I notice the very slow fighting. Specifically the part where he is surrounded and fighting parademons one by one in a circle I think. It was almost Nolan level, almost.
Discotheque
Banned
Mad max batman looked cool but the inclusion of that scene was a huge mistake and also the way it's spliced into the movie made no sense
Having Bruce wake up twice from that bullshit just tells the audience it's a dream (double dream) sequence. But then how did he see the flash in his dream when he has yet to have ever been familiar with him? Not to mention the Omega symbol and parademons too (he hasn't decrypted Lex's files yet)
So then....it's not a dream. It was actually flash sending him a message from another timeline or whatever....then why show Bruce wake up from that? Shit was stupid and sent so many mixed signals
And I'm not even gonna talk about how psycho it makes superman look haha. If they abandon this injustice teasing in the future movies then it renders this sequence completely pointless tbh.
I wish snyder just cut that whole thing out of the ultimate edition tbh.
Having Bruce wake up twice from that bullshit just tells the audience it's a dream (double dream) sequence. But then how did he see the flash in his dream when he has yet to have ever been familiar with him? Not to mention the Omega symbol and parademons too (he hasn't decrypted Lex's files yet)
So then....it's not a dream. It was actually flash sending him a message from another timeline or whatever....then why show Bruce wake up from that? Shit was stupid and sent so many mixed signals
And I'm not even gonna talk about how psycho it makes superman look haha. If they abandon this injustice teasing in the future movies then it renders this sequence completely pointless tbh.
I wish snyder just cut that whole thing out of the ultimate edition tbh.
I said it then and I'll say it now. The Knightmare sequence is only important in terms of being something crazy and cool for fans but there was no place for it in the film. So the solution imo, should have been to turn it into a stand alone short that screened in front of the movie itself, like the Pixar and Disney shorts. That would have been a cool bonus.
Discotheque
Banned
That whole scene was ripe for a post credits inclusion. Teasing what happens if the JL fails. Throw in a little apocalyptic flash and wonder woman too while you're at it. Damn
Instead we got a drunk editor who put it in the wrong timestamp lol
Instead we got a drunk editor who put it in the wrong timestamp lol
No I disagree about "post credit" sequence. I think we have to consider pacing and mentality. That's a longass self contained sequence with a lot of big moments and action. It's not something you just absorb passively while the theatre lights are already on and everyone is getting up to leave. It really has to be at the start, not at the end.
Discotheque
Banned
That's a good point. It can't be too long or suspenseful. Just something that can be taken in passively at the end
I think the scene would even have worked better (with a few tweaks) after he decrypts the lex corp files. That way it could have been interpreted as a delusional fever dream of Bruce painted by his feelings about superman being a danger. Smh I hope some geek re-edits this movie online one day.
We could have gotten superhero mulholland drive/wizard of Oz with concepts like that.
As it is now that scene is just a badly placed nod to the comic fans (it was cool seeing parademons and stuff no doubt)
Man that war scene in JL looks pretty cool tho. Can even see people with wings in it. Maybe thanagarians?
Edit: lol God damn that was long-winded. I rant because I care brehs. Anyways praying Matt Reeves stays on Batman and it goes smoothly for him. That really can be the next chosen one for comic movies now that logan did its job
I think the scene would even have worked better (with a few tweaks) after he decrypts the lex corp files. That way it could have been interpreted as a delusional fever dream of Bruce painted by his feelings about superman being a danger. Smh I hope some geek re-edits this movie online one day.
We could have gotten superhero mulholland drive/wizard of Oz with concepts like that.
As it is now that scene is just a badly placed nod to the comic fans (it was cool seeing parademons and stuff no doubt)
Man that war scene in JL looks pretty cool tho. Can even see people with wings in it. Maybe thanagarians?
Edit: lol God damn that was long-winded. I rant because I care brehs. Anyways praying Matt Reeves stays on Batman and it goes smoothly for him. That really can be the next chosen one for comic movies now that logan did its job
shira
Member
Are DC even doing stingers?
brotkasten
Member
Last night I watched Man of Steel again and it somehow didn't get any better (weird, I know). I still kinda like the first half of the movie, up to the Smallville fight. But there's all sorts of weird editing with the flashbacks and mixed messaging (or no messaging) from the characters. Like, what's the point of Pa Kent's "you should've let them die/protect your identity" flashback, when the first thing we see in the movie is Clark saving the people on the oil rig, clearly acting against his father's advice. It feels a bit unnecessary, when those scenes are put in that order, because we already know how the conflict and struggle is resolved from Clark's point of view.
Somewhere in the first half of Man of Steel, there is a pretty good Superman movie buried. It's a shame and a bit frustrating that, at least for me, it all went downhill during the Smallville fight.
Somewhere in the first half of Man of Steel, there is a pretty good Superman movie buried. It's a shame and a bit frustrating that, at least for me, it all went downhill during the Smallville fight.
b&jy77VjiKn$#F
Member
I watched Man of Steel trailer #3 again because of Zimmer's performance at Coachella. Goddamn that was a good trailer. The final film was okay I suppose, but that didn't stop me from seeing it 5 times in theater.
Bet the reshoot is to add more Batman stuff.
broncobuster
Banned
On the Knightmare sequence, the intent behind it is muddled. There's an argument that it's meant to be vague but I reject that it's a decision. Way I see it, it needed to be clearer about what it wanted to say.
If it's a tease of a what if? future of Superman turned evil, I feel the best placement is right at the beginning. Ideally where it ends with Flash running back in time. Basically, X-Men Days of Future Past, Terminator, whatever.
If it's a manifestation of Bruce's fear and paranoia, which is what I took it as, first you drop the Flash and Apokolips stuff and keep it to Superman. Snyder talked about how media is a character in the movie, and what shapes Bruce's opinion on Superman. I'd say the best place then is after Lex's party, when you have the talking head and Charlie Rose talking about Superman's role in the world. Jump between Clark and Bruce watching the same news stories and show the effect on the subject and the audience.
This scene https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RynVyFzcis
Suicide Squad had one, as did Green Lantern if we're going pre-DCEU. Wouldn't be shocked if Wonder Woman had one to tease Justice League. And if Justice League doesn't have one, that could be Snyder not wanting to do one.
What's interesting about Marvel Studios' post-credit scenes is occasionally having them directed by the next director. For instance, Joss Whedon directed the post-credits scene of Thor and James Gunn did Thor 2's. So for all we know James Wan could do an Aquaman teaser for Justice League.
If it's a tease of a what if? future of Superman turned evil, I feel the best placement is right at the beginning. Ideally where it ends with Flash running back in time. Basically, X-Men Days of Future Past, Terminator, whatever.
If it's a manifestation of Bruce's fear and paranoia, which is what I took it as, first you drop the Flash and Apokolips stuff and keep it to Superman. Snyder talked about how media is a character in the movie, and what shapes Bruce's opinion on Superman. I'd say the best place then is after Lex's party, when you have the talking head and Charlie Rose talking about Superman's role in the world. Jump between Clark and Bruce watching the same news stories and show the effect on the subject and the audience.
This scene https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RynVyFzcis
Suicide Squad had one, as did Green Lantern if we're going pre-DCEU. Wouldn't be shocked if Wonder Woman had one to tease Justice League. And if Justice League doesn't have one, that could be Snyder not wanting to do one.
What's interesting about Marvel Studios' post-credit scenes is occasionally having them directed by the next director. For instance, Joss Whedon directed the post-credits scene of Thor and James Gunn did Thor 2's. So for all we know James Wan could do an Aquaman teaser for Justice League.
I prefer Trailer #2.
b&jy77VjiKn$#F
Member
Trailer 2 is great as well, but Zimmer performance of MoS theme at Coachella is what made me revisited trailer 3.
Leo_Sagittarius
Member
I like the knightmare sequence but I agree that it had no business being there, I remember vividly on my second theater viewing people looking confused about what was going on.
I agree that the Knightmare sequence is pure nerd wankery. I don't agree with the notion that it doesn't have any place in the movie. There's something to be said about world building and I feel these universe movies end up feeling rather small because they're so focused on nebulous concepts like pacing and focus. BvS feels like a proper epic which is one of its strong points.
If your movie is going to be three hours, go all out. I'd rather it get weird then get predictable. The Knightmare sequence works primarily cool visuals alone and as a hint for Darkseid. For those unfamiliar with comics, it can also work as a glimpse into Bruce's psyche.
If your movie is going to be three hours, go all out. I'd rather it get weird then get predictable. The Knightmare sequence works primarily cool visuals alone and as a hint for Darkseid. For those unfamiliar with comics, it can also work as a glimpse into Bruce's psyche.
I've said it before the Knightmare sequence either should have started the movie or been cut.
If it starts the movie, it leaves an air of intrigue around the whole thing... and at least gives early motivations for Bruce's action... you still run into the same problem of no real pay-off, but it's better than halting the movie's momentum in the middle for something that seems completely divorced from the rest of the film.
If it starts the movie, it leaves an air of intrigue around the whole thing... and at least gives early motivations for Bruce's action... you still run into the same problem of no real pay-off, but it's better than halting the movie's momentum in the middle for something that seems completely divorced from the rest of the film.
brotkasten
Member
I wouldn't start the film with it, but perhaps lead into it right after the MoS flashback at the beginning. Sort of building up the fear and hate that Bruce got for Superman.
b&jy77VjiKn$#F
Member
how can aquaman swim if the set stuff leak
BlackGoku03
Member
Will there be video of Zimmer's full performance at Coachella?
Smokey_Run
Member
It was cool to the see the Knightmare sequence the first time and then it becomes painfully obvious it's not needed upon repeated viewings. You also notice what the stunt double was talking about on repeated viewings as well. If there is one criticism I have of Snyder, he's like a kid in a candy store and doesn't know how to NOT over indulge in the material.
It doesn't matter where you put it. The Knightmare scene is always going to feel jarring simply due to what it is. The story doesn't address it nor does it feature anything like it ever again. The best place to put it IS in the middle as a build up for Bruce's paranoia and increasing the scope of this universe.
Putting it at beginning kind of robs from us from one of the GOAT prologues. I wouldn't mess with the first hour or two of BvS, actually. It's damn near perfect.
There were two extremely extraneous scenes in BvS. The Knightmare sequence and the Batmobile chase sequence. Neither had a place in the movie (raising questions that shouldn't have been raised, like why the hell is Superman ignoring the goons firing RPGs in the middle of the street) and felt like over indulgence on the part of Zack Snyder. And, if they get removed, you end up with a movie under three hours that probably wouldn't have been cut to incoherence for a theatrical cut (because it would have been the theatrical cut).
Gordon Shumway
Banned
Leo_Sagittarius
Member
You know what I mean, stop it.
So, ehm, guys, about our first piece of the EXTENDED universe... First trailer from the MoS prequel series.
https://vimeo.com/213733111
I don't know how I feel about Goyer writing the very chronological beginning of the universe, but I guess he already did so whatever. Bring on Krypton.
Wonder if we'll get details about Doomsday and the New Gods, that would be cool.
https://vimeo.com/213733111
I don't know how I feel about Goyer writing the very chronological beginning of the universe, but I guess he already did so whatever. Bring on Krypton.
Wonder if we'll get details about Doomsday and the New Gods, that would be cool.
BadAss2961
Member
Completely agreed. Fans overthink the Knightmare. They know what it is, but assume others will be too lost. That it's too much comic book fuckery to attempt in theater, so it must be wrong. I think it's okay to be lost a little, specifically when the scene in question does in fact fit the movie with where Bruce's head is at. Snyder also kinda sets it up beforehand with a couple scenes turned odd that end up being dreams. So when the Knightmare happens, you might think its another of those episodes, even after it's over, but it's not. Zack likes to play games like that when he has creative freedom. By the way some describe it, you'd think he dropped us into a Martian Manhunhter movie in the middle of BvS with no context whatsoever.
If there's ever been a genre to experiment a little and throw a curveball every now and then, it's this cinematic universe thing where dozens of movies are to follow. Besides, I like the Knightmare scene. It's one of the parts I look forward to whenever i'm watching the movie.
I'd add more Lex. I think 2-5 mins of Lex at the beginning could help a lot of people. See him looking at the destruction of Metropolis, have him explain the rationale behind the false flag, the reason for the bullets, him monitoring Bruce and Clark. This could help a lot of people follow it.
Just a tad bit off topic but I noticed Zimmer is doing a tour through the summer. I plan on seeing him in Atlanta. Anyone else going to one of the shows?
BlackGoku03
Member
Slow news week?
Slow news week.
I might have to do that. Good seats start at $95 though... and I'm four hours away. I'll decide by next week. I doubt my wife would want to see this though sigh.
Slow news week.
I might have to do that. Good seats start at $95 though... and I'm four hours away. I'll decide by next week. I doubt my wife would want to see this though sigh.
Slow? We just had confirmation we're having the DCEU chronological start in TV series form.
But we don't care about the products themselves, we're just here for the gossips
Smokey_Run
Member
Kyrpton is as good as dead on SyFy. I wish they had more faith in it and put it on HBO.
BlackGoku03
Member
Slow? We just had confirmation we're having the DCEU chronological start in TV series form.
But we don't care about the products themselves, we're just here for the gossips
Didn't know it would tie in with the DCEU. I thought it was just another DC show a la Gotham.
I think I'll watch it now. Wasn't very interested honestly.
Just saw this... don't know if it's been posted already.
It wouldn't have even been picked up by HBO.
Smokey_Run
Member
I mean, it's the same company, they could have done it if they wanted to. It won't survive on SyFy either. So why even do it?
How do you know it won't survive on Syfy? And just because it's the same company don't really mean much, just look at how CN treats DC properties recently.
Time Warner doesn't really function that way
I'm sure if they WANTED they could just be like... on HBO, but each division seems to function mostly independent of people and you also lessen your risk by not having it all in-house.
And think ti can do well on SyFy if it's a good show and not given a Friday slot
I think it depends on how the show is funded. If the show is funded by SyFy then yeah it's not long for this world after say 2 or 3 seasons. That's usually when SyFy will end things regardless of how well it's doing in the ratings if the cost is to high. They've killed of a lot of very good shows this way that were getting really good ratings and critical hits. It's why I don't bother getting invested all that much anymore unless it's clear they're just airing a show and not footing the bill. If it's being funded by outside sources and also airing on different channels around the world then it will be fine as long as the ratings are decent for those channels.
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