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[Lime]

... Right. So you're agreeing with my post. Not sure what you're sighing at me for then.

Sorry, it's just that I sometimes find it weird that it's important to state that you're in academic disagreement with someone over their opinions on representation in video games, when we are talking about disapproving the harassment and terrorism of that person and ensuring her safety, well-being and right to exist in video games. It's fine.

 

[Steel]

I definitely understand where you're coming from. I've been reading opinions from people from both sides of those theories. Those that seem to agree with you feel that the best way to end this is by showing in numbers. And by also showing that not only do those that agree with Anita's video but those that disagree with them are also in support. Just to show how united everyone is. But the other opinion seems to be that a major part of this is trolling and the worst thing you can do with trolls is to give them attention as it just makes them crave it even more. So that's why I was asking what people would end it.

A pretty accurate summation of the thread.

 

[Kinyou]

They're individually silent. It's not the responsibility of New York Times to spread the messages of these companies - they have their own PR departments trained to do this.

Look, Kinyou. I've given many examples now of why it is a good thing to stand up and denounce Gamergate.

• I feel scared that being a woman isn't helped and supported by the games industry, media and culture when you're facing terrorism.
• I am worried that these significant companies aren't doing anything in the face of a pack of terrorists cultivated in the vacuum left by constantly being silent about bigoted attitudes in video games.
• I am afraid that moderates and neutral will remain uninformed and indecisive in a matter that is really clear-cut: that this movement is physically and psychologically harming people who can't even live in their own homes or fulfil their personal dreams in video games because of a sizeable amount of bigots along with a status quo.

If you cannot acknowledge the above fears and see why it is a good thing to speak up by these power holders and influential companies, I am afraid we can't progress our discussion.

I certainly acknowledge and understand those fears, we just differentiate on how much influence the companies truly have over it. I won't keep any company from speaking up individually but I'm also not specifically demanding it from then. I think a youtuber like total biscuit can have more influence on how the community reacts than the company from which people are already used to only hear PR statements anyway.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

/v/ isn't that bad.

When discussing certain games, like Ace Combat, everyone is civil and the energy is vibrant. Too many people give it a bad rap because they think it's a hivemind. It's no more of a hivemind than GAF is.

I've mentioned before I sometimes go on /v/ (not as often now, though I get the impression the GG stuff is mostly contained to its own threads like it is here) and earlier this year I felt the need to defend it when people here gave it shit for sending birthday and congrats cards out to devs, but the anonymity it brings can absolutely makes it a more hostile environment than GAF or even a lot of the other sub-boards on 4chan can get. It's also impossible to deny much of the Quinnspiracy/GamerGate drama took root there.

There's a reason there's a /vg/ board now after all.

 

[B-Genius]

Sports teams do speak out when their fans do something stupid.

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/06/16/canucks-condemn-rioting-minority

I wouldn't mind if publishers came out with some "generic" statement like this, but developers? A lot of them just want to keep their heads down and focus on making games while being quietly aware of the issues going on. They have no obligation to (and probably shouldn't) say a damn thing.

 

[Lime]

"#gamergate" is a ridiculous spectacle that should be ignored until it curls up and dies. To say a company has to respond on death threats, let alone caustic circle jerking, OR ELSE come off as condoning it is about as absurd and hyperbolic as comparing Zoe Quinn's sex life to fucking Watergate.

I definitely understand where you're coming from. I've been reading opinions from people from both sides of those theories. Those that seem to agree with you feel that the best way to end this is by showing in numbers. And by also showing that not only do those that agree with Anita's video but those that disagree with them are also in support. Just to show how united everyone is. But the other opinion seems to be that a major part of this is trolling and the worst thing you can do with trolls is to give them attention as it just makes them crave it even more. So that's why I was asking what people would end it.

The problem is that you are both entertaining the scenario of "don't feed the trolls" or "ignore it and it will go away", which has been debunked in this thread.

Even more importantly, it's kind of hard to tell victims of doxing, rape and death threats, etc. to simply ignore it.

Not doing anything is the definition of the status quo. Racism doesn't go away by ignoring it. Sexism doesn't go away by ignoring it. Obviously people and companies should speak up!

I certainly acknowledge and understand those fears, we just differentiate on how much influence the companies truly have over it. I won't keep any company from speaking up individually but I'm also not specifically demanding it from then. I think a youtuber like total biscuit can have more influence on how the community reacts than the company from which people are already used to only hear PR statements anyway.

Now you are talking about degrees of influence, which is irrelevant for the argument that I have made throughout this thread. I am saying, if you have any influence, if you hold any power, you should take a stand. You should speak up about this. I don't care if you're a Martian having your own Youtube gaming channel or an international multibillion company, if you have influence and a say in this culture. you should speak up.

 

[danm999]

The origin of the movement do not really matter. If a murder spark light on corruption, it does not make the corruption not exist.

GamerGate didn't spark light on shit. Everything it "uncovered" was disproved by facts almost immediately.

Zoe Quinn haters found out she had relations with a journalist who gave her free publicity and good reviews, this sparked the debate. I do not deny reality like that, but calling the movement misogynistic based on the beginning of the movement do not make sense.

Of course it does. That's why the movement exists. Since then, it hasn't stopped harassing women in the industry and those who support them. Since then, its let several legitimate issues of unethical behavior by the games media and journalists go largely unchallenged.

 

[Lord_Balkan]

You're completely missing the point.

The point is NOT that sexism is somehow harmful or perpetuating sexism in those who play it. The problem is that use of sexist tropes decreases the quality of the game itself through the laziness of their use, as well as discouraging female players (and male players who can analyze that shit) from playing their games because they're so gross about their depiction of women. In other words, it's non-inclusive.

Pointing this shit out and preventing them from being used in future games only increases the quality of said games for everybody involved.

Sure, I can understand that sentiment, and its a noble cause. I wish there was more inclusive games, and tropes of any kind are generally boring. This can indeed increase video game quality. I am not missing that point because I already agree with it.

However, Anita not only argues that, she implies that sexist tropes can cause sexism. She said in her Hitman video that:

The player cannot help but treat these female bodies as things to be acted upon,because they were designed, constructed and placed in the environment for that singular purpose. Players are meant to derive a perverse pleasure from desecrating the bodies of unsuspecting virtual female characters.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Sure, I can understand that sentiment, and its a noble cause. I wish there was more inclusive games, and tropes of any kind are generally boring. This can indeed increase video game quality. I am not missing that point because I already agree with it.

However, Anita not only argues that, she implies that sexist tropes can cause sexism. She said in her Hitman video that:

She's not wrong

If someone is regularly exposed to sexist tropes in their entertainment, it's not unreasonable to think they could become indifferent if not accepting of sexism in reality

 

[nynt9]

She's not wrong

If someone is regularly exposed to sexist tropes in their entertainment, it's not unreasonable to think they could become indifferent if not accepting of sexism in reality

Just like how players who play games with violence becoming accepting of violence in real life right? Oh wait, haven't we been arguing that isn't the case for decades? If so how is it different?

 

[GuessMyUserName]

Sorry, it's just that I sometimes find it weird that it's important to state that you're in academic disagreement with someone over their opinions on representation in video games, when we are talking about disapproving the harassment and terrorism of that person and ensuring her safety, well-being and right to exist in video games. It's fine.

I haven't mentioned anything about stating disposition to Anita... only that stating "100% support" for her should not be pushed as the only way to dissent death threats.

Agreeing with Anita and agreeing with death threats are entirely separate issues.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

I've mentioned before I sometimes go on /v/ (not as often now, though I get the impression the GG stuff is mostly contained to its own threads like it is here) and earlier this year I felt the need to defend it when people here gave it shit for sending birthday and congrats cards out to devs, but the anonymity it brings can absolutely makes it a more hostile environment than GAF or even a lot of the other sub-boards on 4chan can get. It's also impossible to deny much of the Quinnspiracy/GamerGate drama took root there.

There's a reason there's a /vg/ board now after all.

Actually, I don't mind the hostility on /v/ when it's just about video-games and there's no anti-SJW agenda or attacking an individual. Like, sometimes it's pretty funny watching a big hate thread on a popular game, because in that case the exaggerated jokes are actually funny to me, because it's not a serious issue and no one is getting threatened. In that case, I can see posts and feel safe in thinking they're just people trolling, because it's harmless fun.

But yeah, it's gotten a bit too much lately, that I've avoided /v/. And I think people are wrong that GamerGate has been pushed away from /v/. There might not be big threads about it, but I still can sense people are boiling under the surface about it, and it worries me.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Just like how players who play games with violence becoming accepting of violence in real life right? Oh wait, haven't we been arguing that isn't the case for decades? If so how is it different?

Desensitization is not some wild concept

 

[Lord_Balkan]

She's not wrong

If someone is regularly exposed to sexist tropes in their entertainment, it's not unreasonable to think they could become indifferent if not accepting of sexism in reality

I've already addressed this in my earlier posts.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I've already addressed this in my earlier posts.

Your position seemed to be the same then

Don't see the point you're trying to make

 

[Lime]

Regardless of the scientifically verified effects of media on one's understanding of gender/men/women, gamers sure are doing a good job at appearing to confirm that hypothesis.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Just like how players who play games with violence becoming accepting of violence in real life right? Oh wait, haven't we been arguing that isn't the case for decades? If so how is it different?

No, we have not been arguing that case for decades.

We've been arguing if video games flip a switch in someone's head and make them killers.

Desensitization is not some wild concept

To add to that: ignoring the realities of our hobby just because it is our hobby is fucking stupid.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

I would honestly argue while pro-long exposure to a piece of entertainment with violent/racist/sexist material doesn't instantly make you a violent/racist/sexist person, it probably does condition you to a certain extent depending on your mental state, like how other entertainment can influence different types of people.

Violence in games isn't inherently wrong, but I think the effect it can have on people is a valid area to analysis and debate when not taken to Jack Thompson-levels. It'd obviously be a false-equivalence to say the same about racism/sexism in games, but sexual content or race-related elements (for the latter, say, Street Fighter's over-the-top stereotypes for every nationality) aren't inherently wrong but they should be open to analysis and debate.

 

[faceless007]

Just like how players who play games with violence becoming accepting of violence in real life right? Oh wait, haven't we been arguing that isn't the case for decades? If so how is it different?

Well if the question is whether people who play sexist video games are more predisposed to exhibit deeply sexist and misogynistic behavior and attitudes in real life, I can't help but think that the actions of #GamerGate itself provide pretty damn compelling evidence.

 

[Lime]

No media scholar worth their salt never ever thinks that media has any direct effects. That is too simple of a conclusion to draw.

Most agree that representation shore up and reinforce particular beliefs in conjunction with other exposure to other meaning. Many factors are obviously at play, but most agree that stuff like representation contributes to how we perceive each other.

 

[USC-fan]

Well if the question is whether people who play sexist video games are more predisposed to exhibit deeply sexist and misogynistic behavior and attitudes in real life, I can't help but think that the actions of #GamerGate itself provide pretty damn compelling evidence.

Which games are now sexist?

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Well if the question is whether people who play sexist video games are more predisposed to exhibit deeply sexist and misogynistic behavior and attitudes in real life, I can't help but think that the actions of #GamerGate itself provide pretty damn compelling evidence.

Especially with the recently uncovered forums posts about buying Bayonetta 2 en mass.

 

[thesolidshark]

Especially with the recently uncovered forums posts about buying Bayonetta 2 en mass.

What's this?

I know what the game is, but what's about recently uncovered forum posts?

 

[Madness]

Individual companies shouldn't make individual comments: that's exactly the work of industry organizations. And the Entertainment Software Association did exactly that as quoted in the article.

This. Anita Sarkeesian speaks on issues with the games industry, is a critic and somewhat journalist. Why would Electronic Arts and Take Two give comments? She's not their worker. The ESA represents their industry and they did that. Silence doesn't always imply complicit support.

I see it all the time, why hasn't so and so talked about the issue. They don't need to. I bet the last thing games companies want to do is get embroiled in this thing.

 

[TheBryanJZX90]

Just like how players who play games with violence becoming accepting of violence in real life right? Oh wait, haven't we been arguing that isn't the case for decades? If so how is it different?

Because acting in a violent manner requires a far greater effort than a subtle change in the way you think.

 

[Lord_Balkan]

Your position seemed to be the same then

Don't see the point you're trying to make

is what I said

Really? If the media you consume has sexist views don't see how you wouldn't be influenced by it. A person raised on racist media would probably turn racist.

Then why is half of Neogaf not violent mass murderers? Growing up on ultra violent video games such as Mortal Kombat and Doom.

EDIT: I am not trying to be difficult, I just can't find conclusive evidence on the causation of these issues related to video games.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

What's this?

I know what the game is, but what's about recently uncovered forum posts?

Oh, just a bunch of idiots going "We're going to do this in order to show developers that we support sexism in games". It's in the official GAMERGATE thread.

 

[Lime]

This. Anita Sarkeesian speaks on issues with the games industry, is a critic and somewhat journalist. Why would Electronic Arts and Take Two give comments? She's not their worker. The ESA represents their industry and they did that. Silence doesn't always imply complicit support.

I see it all the time, why hasn't so and so talked about the issue. They don't need to. I bet the last thing games companies want to do is get embroiled in this thing.

Your argument has been addressed several times throughout this thread.

 

[PairOfFilthySocks]

Regardless of the scientifically verified effects of media on one's understanding of gender/men/women, gamers sure are doing a good job at appearing to confirm that hypothesis.

Oh come on. You have spent far, far too much time on the Internet if you seriously think the entertainment someone consumes comes remotely close to having an effect on their understanding of gender relations as whatever mum and dad taught them.

 

[FlyinJ]

Publishers remaining silent about their customers threatening death to others over their product as to protect their bottom line is pathetic and disgusting.

 

[Lord_Balkan]

Because acting in a violent manner requires a far greater effort than a subtle change in the way you think.

That is a good point. My followup question is, do you think violent video games cause people to become more aggressive? I feel becoming more aggressive / agitated is a subtle personality change comparatively speaking to actual violence.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Well if the question is whether people who play sexist video games are more predisposed to exhibit deeply sexist and misogynistic behavior and attitudes in real life, I can't help but think that the actions of #GamerGate itself provide pretty damn compelling evidence.

Especially with the recently uncovered forums posts about buying Bayonetta 2 en mass.

You know that Platinum fans are really out there, don't you?

 

[bootski]

is what I said

you cant find conclusive evidence because it is none. in fact, it's been disproven time and time again with studies showing aggression raising is due more to difficulty than violent content.

shame on the posters above for trying to further that bullshit idea just because it fits their narrative.

 

[Lime]

Oh come on. You have spent far, far too much time on the Internet if you seriously think the entertainment someone consumes comes remotely close to having an effect on their understanding of gender relations as whatever mum and dad taught them.

Read the post again. Emphasize the "appearing as". It's the same point as the subsequent faceless007 post.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

you cant find conclusive evidence because it is none. in fact, it's been disproved time and time again with studies showing aggression raising is due more to difficulty than violent content.

shame on the posters above for trying to further that bullshit idea just because it fits their narrative.

 

[thesolidshark]

Oh, just a bunch of idiots going "We're going to do this in order to show developers that we support sexism in games". It's in the official GAMERGATE thread.

I hope they do support it, but after, talk about anything but the quotation.

Wait, users are posting this in GAF's Gamergate thread, or it's just being reposted from other places?

So, these threats of rape and violence have more to do with the values learnt from Mum and Dad, and less to do with extremely common depictions in games of women as prostitutes or strippers that you can* bash and/or kill.

I'd think anonymity has something to do with it too.

 

[foolishoptimist]

Oh come on. You have spent far, far too much time on the Internet if you seriously think the entertainment someone consumes comes remotely close to having an effect on their understanding of gender relations as whatever mum and dad taught them.

So, these threats of rape and violence have more to do with the values learnt from Mum and Dad, and less to do with extremely common depictions in games of women as prostitutes or strippers that you can* bash and/or kill.

 

[orborborb]

It looks to me like Sarkesian got just what she wanted.

 

[PairOfFilthySocks]

Read the post again. Emphasize the "appearing as". It's the same point as the subsequent faceless007 post.

"Appearing as". In other words, "no evidence but fuck it let's assume it's true anyways".

This idea that the content developers create contributes to underlying attitudes people adopt in their everyday lives is fucking stupid, and wildly overestimating the power media can have on one's personal beliefs and ideologies. A human learns several orders of magnitude more from experiencing life itself and being taught by parents, friends and family. If they are in a position where the sheer amount of entertainment they consume is enough to actually impact their life, then guess what? Their parents have fucked up big time. This is the same daft argument that Jack Thompson employed against violent video games and your attempt to use the deplorable actions of anonymous dickheads to attack developers is transparent as all hell.

Edit:

So, these threats of rape and violence have more to do with the values learnt from Mum and Dad, and less to do with extremely common depictions in games of women as prostitutes or strippers that you can* bash and/or kill.

hate to break it to ya, but yes. If their parents couldn't manage to get across how bad fucking rape and murder is, then I'm going to say they fucked up

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

There are a lot of victims in this situation. Sarkesian is the only person I would not call a victim, she got exactly what she wanted.

is that so

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

There are a lot of victims in this situation. Sarkesian is the only person I would not call a victim, she got exactly what she wanted.

Exactly. I remember donating 100$ to her Kickstarter to help fund death threats against her.

 

[Psychoward]

There are a lot of victims in this situation. Sarkesian is the only person I would not call a victim, she got exactly what she wanted.

hmm

 

[prwxv3]

I am going to buy Bayonetta 2 what does that make me again?

 

[TheBryanJZX90]

That is a good point. My followup question is, do you think violent video games cause people to become more aggressive? I feel becoming more aggressive / agitated is a subtle personality change comparatively speaking to actual violence.

I'd say "becoming more aggressive" is a pretty vague phrase that likely lies somewhere between action and thought.

 

[thesolidshark]

I am going to buy Bayonetta 2 what does that make me again?

A consumer, and maybe a fan of Platinum games and/or Bayonetta.

 

[danm999]

It looks to me like Sarkesian got just what she wanted.

A super creepy death threat?

There are a lot of victims in this situation. Sarkesian is the only person I would not call a victim, she got exactly what she wanted.

Oh. Who are the "real" victims in your mind then?

 

[Deleted member 126221]

I am going to buy Bayonetta 2 what does that make me again?

Someone buying a great game? What are you even trying to say?

 

[Lime]

"Appearing as". In other words, "no evidence but fuck it let's assume it's true anyways".

This idea that the content developers create contributes to underlying attitudes people adopt in their everyday lives is fucking stupid, and wildly overestimating the power media can have on one's personal beliefs and ideologies. A human learns several orders of magnitude more from experiencing life itself and being taught by parents, friends and family. If they are in a position where the sheer amount of entertainment they consume is enough to actually impact their life, then guess what? Their parents have fucked up big time. This is the same daft argument that Jack Thompson employed against violent video games and your attempt to use the deplorable actions of anonymous dickheads to attack developers is transparent as all hell.

Edit:
hate to break it to ya, but yes. If their parents couldn't manage to get across how bad fucking rape and murder is, then I'm going to say they fucked up

Uhm, no, that's not what I wrote. I wrote that the way gamers are reacting to the point of pathological disease to women like Sarkeesian and with this whole Gamergate would certainly appear to an outsider as indication that gamers in fact do adopt misogynistic and sexist attitudes.

Even some people on Neogaf react entirely disproportionate to Sarkeesian. Here's what Brawndo Addict wrote:

Let's look at how much energy and time GAF has spent discussing it (I'm using 100ppp).

The first thread about her kickstarter: 45 pages or +4400 posts.

The first episode releases: 76 pages or +7500 posts.

The second episode releases: 17 pages or +1600 posts.

The third episode releases, but two threads, one - two: For a combined 13 pages or +1200 posts.

The fourth episode releases: 9 pages or +800 posts.

The fifth episode releases: 15 pages or +1400 posts.

The sixth episode releases: 23 pages and counting, or +2200 posts.

And I'm sure there's been other threads about her that I've missed. But just those comes out to 198 pages or +19,800 posts.

Compare this to the original PSN hack thread only went for 68 pages. Or the Xbox One Reveal (58 pages) and the PlayStation 4 Reveal (96 pages). Apparently her video series is only 22% less important to the GAF community in terms of posts than the PSN hack plus both Next-Gen Console reveals combined.

For a video series that follows the exact same format and style for each episode, one would expect that serious critique about her style would be mostly over within an episode or two. After all, the old N'Gai Resident Evil 5 thread only went for 14 pages, and the #1reasonwhy thread from 2012 only went for 11 pages. Or how about that one Kotaku article concerning black representation in gaming which went for 7 pages, or the Dragon's Crown thread which went for 14 pages, or the RPS article about sexism in the game industry which went on for 20. Add all those up and you still haven't matched the thread length her first episode got.

To the say the level of response is disproportionate is putting it mildly.

 

[foolishoptimist]

hate to break it to ya, but yes. If their parents couldn't manage to get across how bad fucking rape and murder is, then I'm going to say they fucked up

So you blame parents for everything? You've had no other influences on your values/character in your entire (quite possibly very short) life?

 

[mjp2417]

This idea that the content developers create contributes to underlying attitudes people adopt in their everyday lives is fucking stupid, and wildly overestimating the power media can have on one's personal beliefs and ideologies.

So you would argue that the overwhelming amount of historical scholarship demonstrating that Uncle Tom's Cabin helped to mobilize anti-slavery sentiment among Northern readers in Antibellum America "is fucking stupid" and "wildly overestimating the power media can have on one's personal beliefs and ideologies"? History is littered with media that has contributed to shaping personal beliefs and ideologies.