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[shintoki]

Missed the debate but saw a recap and oh boy, Bernie was amazing, dat Wall Street "I'm dangerous to them" line was the best. Would Hillgaf stop denying data and facts that Bernie would absolutely crush the racist xenophobic Trump in the GE please. Also the Cuban healthcare is great, just look at Fidel Castro, he out-lived his enemies.

Hahaha

 

[ChaosXVI]

This is not how it works. Primary electorate is different than GE electorate.

While that is true, I feel that regardless of who the Democratic nominee is, they are going to steamroll the Republican nominee, regardless of it it's Trump or Cruz. Bernie could've lost to pre-Robot Rubio, but that's out the window now.

The republicans are going to have a catastrophe once it comes time for the nomination. They either nominate Trump and alienate the hell out of their base, or they steal it from him and give it to a combo ticket of Cruz/Rubio or Cruz/Kasich, and use their combined delegate total to justify not giving it to Trump. This of course angers Trump's fanbase, and either he runs as a 3rd party and blows it all up. Or he doesn't, but his supporters stay home on election day.

Either way, the Dems win. They could have Kerry in the driver's seat at this point and win.

 

[Abounder]

Just watched some clips. Bernie came out strong, it seems. One thing of note - I was surprised to see Hillary use the same auto-bailout argument she used last time, because apparently it didn't help her to win Michigan, and that's where I thought it would have the most impact. This article makes a similar observation:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/10/opinion/a-lesson-in-hillary-clintons-loss-in-michigan.html

“...it seems like she’s willing to take the gamble that fact-checkers may call her out for her tactic Sunday — but that voters won’t.”

I suppose Hillary has nothing to lose when it comes to being seen as trustworthy, hopefully it backfires again on ole' lying Ted Hillary.

 

[shortsFortallPeople]

Hahaha

Yeah, Castro has been doing some Weekend at Bernie's nonsense for about a decade or so now. He'll outlive the united states if the cuban media is to be believed

 

[Aaronology]

Well look at her support base. "We think she is more electable", "Its not settling for less, its being realistic", etc.

She has the backing of the regulars for the Democratic Party, but she isn't generating any excitement. She is paying it safe. She can't even say she is the more liberal candidate with Sanders out there stealing her thunder. We have someone who isn't expanding the base and probably won't be expanding upon Obama's numbers. He had about 5 million votes less in 2012, than in 2008. The Dems are a fickle base, while the Republicans with a weak ass candidate like Mitt, since pulled the same 60million.



Let's be honest. It doesn't matter if Sanders or Clinton win.

The young will vote for them, the blacks will vote for them, the Latinos will vote for them. Trump has poisoned that well on the Republican side for this election.

The biggest issue is going to be can they get their people out to vote. If they do, they'll crush the shrinking Republican Party. If not... well its going to be a close horse race.

There is this silly narrative that Sanders is generating more excitement than Clinton that seems to ignore how excitedly people continue to vote for Hillary instead of him. I think it's time we dispel with this fiction that HRC is some boring candidate simply because she does not appeal to Bernie's base.

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

If anyone has 3 hours and wants to watch an extremely interesting podcast, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwHYqeN97oc

Joey Diaz goes pretty far into Cuba and gives great insight into it.

 

[Aaron Strife]

There is this silly narrative that Sanders is generating more excitement than Clinton that seems to ignore how excitedly people continue to vote for Hillary instead of him. I think it's time we dispel with this fiction that HRC is some boring candidate simply because she does not appeal to Bernie's base.

Yup. The demographics Hillary flares up are the ones that are less likely to sit around all day talking politics on the Internet.

Even if that's the case it's not doing him any favors in states that he's not targeting (he's been getting steamrolled in the south) and only targeting half the states isn't really a winning strategy.

 

[noshten]

Making judgement about how Sanders would do in a GE against Trump months before the election is based on no factual evidence and just a gut feeling. My gut feeling is that Trump would do better against Hillary, so I've counter weighted your gut feelings on the matter with as much factual evidence as you've brought up.

 

[lastflowers]

I hear ya. For what it's worth, CNN factchecked Hillary's answer that she called out Wall Street on their subprime mortgage lending practices and their reckless behavior before the crisis, and they rated it True. She needs to package it better.

by 2007 that was pretty fairly known and reported upon. Nothing could be done by that point regulatory wise that could have prevented anything. The damage had been done far sooner.

 

[ant_]

Yup. The demographics Hillary flares up are the ones that are less likely to sit around all day talking politics on the Internet.

What are you trying to imply by this?

 

[RustyNails]

by 2007 that was pretty fairly known and reported upon. Nothing could be done by that point regulatory wise that could have prevented anything. The damage had been done far sooner.

Point is if she was in their pockets, she wouldn't have said anything. No one was going to notice.

 

[OrangeGrayBlue]

What are you trying to imply by this?

Probably that Hillary's base is mostly 45+ while Bernie's base is mostly 18-45.

 

[ItIsOkBro]

I still can't believe that Hillary tried to insinuate that Bernie was paid and bought by Koch

 

[Aaron Strife]

What are you trying to imply by this?

Older people, poor people who are stuck working/raising the kids all day and might lack easy internet access.

She's winning ~80% of the vote in places like Mississippi, I'm sure at least some of those voters are excited about her.

 

[televator]

Democrats told pollsters that themselves. I'm not going to Google it for you.

Also, in regards to the revolution, Occupy served as an incubator for all sorts of political actions from anti-fracking activism, to fast food worker wage increases, to BLM.

Also, the organized efforts to call for a national convention, to amend the constitution with the aim of getting money out of politics. That so happens to be Bernie's central thesis. People laugh, but they don't realize just how closely Bernie's campaign appeals toward sentiments that lead tens to hundreds of thousands of people across the entire country to protest and risk being trampled on by our infamously fascistic law enforcement. Bernie' campaign slogan might as well be "occupy the White House."

 

[dLMN8R]

Point is if she was in their pockets, she wouldn't have said anything. No one was going to notice.

The fact that people in this thread are SHOCKED that Clinton wants to repeal Citizen's United shows how effective Republican propaganda has been at convincing Bernie supporters that she's some evil caricature.

 

[Square2015]

If there's a terrorist attack, as ISIS has recently said is incoming, everything could shift in Trump's favor.

 

[ZealousD]

Bernie and Hillary are at least publically saying you should vote for the other person should they get the nomination. If you legitimately support your candidate and aren't just doing a protest vote against the other person, than you do not have a compelling reason to go against your candidate's wishes her. Any attempt at dividing the party between Bernie and Hillary is dumb. These candidates are really not THAT far apart.

 

[Macho Madness]

If there's a terrorist attack, as ISIS has recently said is incoming, everything could shift in Trump's favor.

While true, it might also be worth considering someone with tons of experience in that situation.

 

[thehypocrite]

Bernie Sanders is funding his campaign and garnering support via unrealistic and politically impossible promises. It should not be taboo to call him out on this, especially when the foundation of his presidential bid seems to be saying whatever the hell he needs to say to drum up excitement for his young and liberal base. This is a politician who claims he will free half a million people from prison by the end of his first term, knowing all the while nothing of the sort will happen if he's elected. It's disgustingly dishonest; Even Trump's wall seems realistic in comparison. And like Donald, Bernie shows no sign of reigning in that sort pandering because his base just eats it up. They've mastered the art of telling people what they want to hear, if from opposite ends of the American political spectrum.

But gosh, don't call him out on it. Then you're just fear mongering!

You wrote a lot of things but failed to weaken my point of Hillary's fear mongering ways. Just because it's difficult to do, doesn't mean that nothing can be done.

Another example of Hillary's fear mongering:

In his plan Trump kids could go to college for free!!!

Oh no the horror of rich people that were going to be educated regardless are getting free tuition that's going to be paid mostly by people like their parents.

There's no substance behind that. Hillary needs to drop the political wonkiness, the fear mongering, she was the best candidate when she's talking about breaking down the barriers, the intersectionality of racism, that's a good message for her to stump, but she can help herself apparently.

 

[BrutishMrFish]

I still can't believe that Hillary tried to insinuate that Bernie was paid and bought by Koch

She didn't. The implication was that the Kochs would prefer Bernie over her, because her plans are supposedly tougher on Wall Street. Even if she's wrong, that's what she was insinuating.

 

[BlastProcessing]

You wrote a lot of things but failed to weaken my point of Hillary's fear mongering ways. Just because it's difficult to do, doesn't mean that nothing can be done.

Another example of Hillary's fear mongering:

In his plan Trump kids could go to college for free!!!

Oh no the horror of rich people that were going to be educated regardless are getting free tuition that's going to be paid mostly by people like their parents.

There's no substance behind that. Hillary needs to drop the political wonkiness, the fear mongering, she was the best candidate when she's talking about breaking down the barriers, the intersectionality of racism, that's a good message for her to stump, but she can help herself apparently.

It's really odd that Clinton is the fear monger when Sanders is the one who is constantly telling spooky stories about how Wall Street boogeymen are the root of all of America's problems.

He energizes his campaign by tapping into people's fear and distrust. He literally talks about the capital "E" Establishment. He builds these rhetorical structures and drapes them in populism to deflect any critique or scrutiny. If you try to pin him down then you are being a political wonk, if you question the reality of his plans you are a fear monger.

Dude is a natural politician, a storyteller who knows his audience. You are right that Clinton is better when she can talk about breaking down barriers, which is why Sanders does his damndest to make that impossible for her.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Probably that Hillary's base is mostly 45+ while Bernie's base is mostly 18-45.

Uhhh try 18-29 for Sanders and 30+ for Clinton.

At least last I had looked that was the case

 

[Ogrekiller]

Hillary is a known fear monger. Her interjection in the Castro & Ortega thing is another example of that.

This from people who want Clinton's transcripts bellowing about untrustworthiness. Fearmongering my ass.

 

[royalan]

It's really odd that Clinton is the fear monger when Sanders is the one who is constantly telling spooky stories about how Wall Street boogeymen are the root of all of America's problems.

He energizes his campaign by tapping into people's fear and distrust. He literally talks about the capital "E" Establishment. He builds these rhetorical structures and drapes them in populism to deflect any critique or scrutiny. If you try to pin him down then you are being a political wonk, if you question the reality of his plans you are a fear monger.

Dude is a natural politician, a storyteller who knows his audience. You are right that Clinton is better when she can talk about breaking down barriers, which is why Sanders does his damndest to make that impossible for her.

Bingo.

 

[harSon]

If Hilary wants to squash Bernie at a debate, she needs to force him away from his stump speech and into specifics. The debate moderators aren't going to do it, so she's going to have to steer the dialog in that direction herself.

Ask Bernie how he's going to pay for everything he promises, and then force him into admitting that he's going to raise taxes on almost everyone - including the Middle Class. Be prepared to break down what a typical American household could expect to pay in heightened taxes. If he tries to pivot back to the things Americans would get in return, ask him about individuals or families who aren't sending their children to college or individuals or families who currently have affordable health care. What about them? Grill him on the assumption that businesses would pass their health care savings onto employees, and why he feels that way considering in his eyes - Big Business is the root of all evil and not to be trusted.

Ask him how he's going to get this stuff passed in the first place, and when he drops his horse shit about a 'Political Revolution' - ask him how an individual who is A) Losing the Democratic Election and B) A part of an election with voter turnout south of 2008 numbers is going to manage to energize the base enough garner this Political Revolution. And if the meat of your platform hinges on a Political Revolution, what are you ultimately going to do if it does not occur? What is someone so uncompromising in his ideologies going to do to get a disruptionist party to sign onto your policies?

Making judgement about how Sanders would do in a GE against Trump months before the election is based on no factual evidence and just a gut feeling. My gut feeling is that Trump would do better against Hillary, so I've counter weighted your gut feelings on the matter with as much factual evidence as you've brought up.

Not only is polling for the General Election absolutely useless right now, but it's especially useless in the case of Bernie. Hilary has been the front runner from day one, and that fact still remains to this day. Not only has she been in the public eye for longer, but she has been the focus as the suspected Democratic nominee.

We haven't seen how Bernie fares as the sole focus of GOP attacks. We haven't seen how Bernie fares as the sole target of the media. We haven't seen how Bernie fares in being grilled by moderators at a debate.

 

[harSon]

Double Post.

 

[Soulscribe]

It's really odd that Clinton is the fear monger when Sanders is the one who is constantly telling spooky stories about how Wall Street boogeymen are the root of all of America's problems.

He energizes his campaign by tapping into people's fear and distrust. He literally talks about the capital "E" Establishment. He builds these rhetorical structures and drapes them in populism to deflect any critique or scrutiny. If you try to pin him down then you are being a political wonk, if you question the reality of his plans you are a fear monger.

Dude is a natural politician, a storyteller who knows his audience. You are right that Clinton is better when she can talk about breaking down barriers, which is why Sanders does his damndest to make that impossible for her.

This needs to be stressed more honestly.

 

[NullPointer]

This needs to be stressed more honestly.

I don't see it.

Nothing Sanders is saying keeps Clinton from talking about breaking down barriers.

And they're all fearmongers. Bernie targets economic insecurities, corruption and a lack of accountability. When and if Hillary gets the nod we'll see fear of Republican supreme court nominations on a biblical scale, aimed in every direction. Trump's fearmongering is different as he's targeted particular peoples by race, religion and national origin.

By all means hold Sanders to the details and call out his plans as unrealistic. That's a conversation that needs to happen, and if people can't take the heat of analysis they should get out of the kitchen. That analysis needs to go both ways though, including why should we expect even Hillary's less ambitious goals to see the light of day when it can be checked by Republican obstruction.

 

[thehypocrite]

It's really odd that Clinton is the fear monger when Sanders is the one who is constantly telling spooky stories about how Wall Street boogeymen are the root of all of America's problems.

He energizes his campaign by tapping into people's fear and distrust. He literally talks about the capital "E" Establishment. He builds these rhetorical structures and drapes them in populism to deflect any critique or scrutiny. If you try to pin him down then you are being a political wonk, if you question the reality of his plans you are a fear monger.

Dude is a natural politician, a storyteller who knows his audience. You are right that Clinton is better when she can talk about breaking down barriers, which is why Sanders does his damndest to make that impossible for her.

So the global financial crisis brought by Wall Street in 2008 is Bullshit? The people made worthless by free trade don't exist? Climate change fear mongering too? Unchecked money in politics?

Those are real things to care about. So I disagree with your characterization of him.

 

[teruterubozu]

It's really odd that Clinton is the fear monger when Sanders is the one who is constantly telling spooky stories about how Wall Street boogeymen are the root of all of America's problems.

He energizes his campaign by tapping into people's fear and distrust. He literally talks about the capital "E" Establishment. He builds these rhetorical structures and drapes them in populism to deflect any critique or scrutiny. If you try to pin him down then you are being a political wonk, if you question the reality of his plans you are a fear monger.

Dude is a natural politician, a storyteller who knows his audience. You are right that Clinton is better when she can talk about breaking down barriers, which is why Sanders does his damndest to make that impossible for her.

Fearmongering? People are frustrated with Wall Street and big business. Remember OWS? I don't know maybe you forgot what it's like to be a liberal.

 

[SlimySnake]

Fearmongering? People are frustrated with Wall Street and big business. Remember OWS? I don't know maybe you forgot what it's like to be a liberal.

People are frustrated with wall street. Bernie keeps linking Hillary to it. That's the classic definition of fear mongering.

Maybe you forgot that Obama took the most money from wallstreet. Maybe Obama forgot that hes a liberal.

 

[BlastProcessing]

So the global financial crisis brought by Wall Street in 2008 is Bullshit? The people made worthless by free trade don't exist? Climate change fear mongering too? Unchecked money in politics?

Those are real things to care about. So I disagree with your characterization of him.

Like any good storyteller, he takes things that are true and leverages them and stretches them. He simplifies and distills. The 2008 crisis was very real but its causes and its solutions are nuanced. Changing American trade policy isn't going to bring Detroit back. The reasons Detroit failed are multifaceted, but they don't play as well as creating a unified enemy does. That has an emotional impact.

Sanders is a career politician. He isn't some dude who magically dropped out of a Frank Capra film and decided to run for President, but he is doing everything he can to foster that image to set himself apart from Clinton. Who, when you look at policies dispassionately, is very similar.

 

[teruterubozu]

Like any good storyteller, he takes things that are true and leverages them and stretches them. He simplifies and distills. The 2008 crisis was very real but its causes and its solutions are nuanced. Changing American trade policy isn't going to bring Detroit back. The reasons Detroit failed are multifaceted, but they don't play as well as creating a unified enemy does. That has an emotional impact.

Sanders is a career politician. He isn't some dude who magically dropped out of a Frank Capra film and decided to run for President, but he is doing everything he can to foster that image to set himself apart from Clinton. Who, when you look at policies dispassionately, is very similar.

But he fear mongers, just like Republicans. I mean, I get you're trying to make that equation.

 

[noshten]

If Hilary wants to squash Bernie at a debate, she needs to force him away from his stump speech and into specifics. The debate moderators aren't going to do it, so she's going to have to steer the dialog in that direction herself.

Considering Hilary is the candidate who has given few specifics when pushed it's frankly funny.
When asked about Wall Street she pivots to 9/11, when asked about Climate Change she pivots to insurance, when asked about Social Security and how she would expand it she provides several options without commit to anyone of them, when asked about how she'd pay for paid leave she still doesn't provide how exactly she is going to raise taxes on the rich to pay for it.

Ask Bernie how he's going to pay for everything he promises, and then force him into admitting that he's going to raise taxes on almost everyone - including the Middle Class. Be prepared to break down what a typical American household could expect to pay in heightened taxes. If he tries to pivot back to the things Americans would get in return, ask him about individuals or families who aren't sending their children to college or individuals or families who currently have affordable health care. What about them? Grill him on the assumption that businesses would pass their health care savings onto employees, and why he feels that way considering in his eyes - Big Business is the root of all evil and not to be trusted.

Except the increases in taxes would be offset by the savings in healthcare. So on average people/companies paying less than what they do currently. The actual Tax increase is 2.2% for everyone and the ones that would actually witness a substantial tax increase are the people who are making over 250k p/y.

Ask him how he's going to get this stuff passed in the first place, and when he drops his horse shit about a 'Political Revolution' - ask him how an individual who is A) Losing the Democratic Election and B) A part of an election with voter turnout south of 2008 numbers is going to manage to energize the base enough garner this Political Revolution. And if the meat of your platform hinges on a Political Revolution, what are you ultimately going to do if it does not occur? What is someone so uncompromising in his ideologies going to do to get a disruptionist party to sign onto your policies?

He is losing to a person that has complete DNC Support, is known by 99.99% of the politically active population, was part of the administration of a popular president, has been backed by the entire party elite, raises millions of dollars from large donations and has several SuperPacs providing additional support with who she definitely doesn't coordinate
The primary results were always going to be lower than 2008, how anyone expected that Dem turnout would be higher is something I don't understand.
It's down to the actual people organizing online and in person to take the next step and vote to take back the government and push through progressive legislation. Getting Bernie into office is just the first of many steps. If he fails the end result will not be much different than if Hillary fails to win back the house and senate. But at least foreign policy difference would make me a lot more at ease with his policies.

Not only is polling for the General Election absolutely useless right now, but it's especially useless in the case of Bernie. Hilary has been the front runner from day one, and that fact still remains to this day. Not only has she been in the public eye for longer, but she has been the focus as the suspected Democratic nominee.

So Polling is absolutely useless right now but somehow Hillary has an advantage despite doing worse. The media has barely focused on Hillary or Bernie(even less so) compared to Trump so all your points on Hillary being scrutinized is more of those attacks that are made by the right to fire up their base rather than anything substantial.

We haven't seen how Bernie fares as the sole focus of GOP attacks. We haven't seen how Bernie fares as the sole target of the media. We haven't seen how Bernie fares in being grilled by moderators at a debate.

We also don't know how much Bernie Sanders gains once media attention is on him and all his policies are actually presented to the general public. So it's a two way street, he might lose some voters while gaining others - he was barely known six months ago and only now is the media attention really starting to illuminate his position to low information voters who have been following the Trump circus.

 

[Spinifex]

But he fear mongers, just like Republicans. I mean, I get you're trying to make that equation.

Republicans want people scared of other people. Liberals want people scared of other people's ideas.

 

[teruterubozu]

Republicans want people scared of other people. Liberals want people scared of other people's ideas.

Well, he's saying Bernie wants people to be scared of Hillary (a person) so...yeah.

 

[BlastProcessing]

Fearmongering? People are frustrated with Wall Street and big business. Remember OWS? I don't know maybe you forgot what it's like to be a liberal.

I do remember OWS, a movement that gained momentum when it set itself against a large, general enemy, but fell apart when it had to get down to the specifics of what it stood for. Turns out, the specifics matter.

People's frustrations with Wall Street are very real, that was my point. That Sanders is tapping into people's pre-existing fears. Put it this way, if the difference between Sanders and Clinton regarding Wall Street were as stark as Sanders paints them, then Warren would have endorsed him by now.

 

[B-Dubs]

Well, he's saying Bernie wants people to be scared of Hillary (a person) so...yeah.

That's not what the guy was saying.

 

[BlastProcessing]

But he fear mongers, just like Republicans. I mean, I get you're trying to make that equation.

He fear mongers just like many politicians, period.

I don't think Republicans need to enter into it. They are over in the corner watching their party self destruct while the Democrats are having an actual Primary. I am really not trying to draw any parallels between what's happening on here and the GOP's dumpster fire.

 

[Dirtyshubb]

Considering Hilary is the candidate who has given few specifics when pushed it's frankly funny.
When asked about Wall Street she pivots to 9/11, when asked about Climate Change she pivots to insurance, when asked about Social Security and how she would expand it she provides several options without commit to anyone of them, when asked about how she'd pay for paid leave she still doesn't provide how exactly she is going to raise taxes on the rich to pay for it.



Except the increases in taxes would be offset by the savings in healthcare. So on average people/companies paying less than what they do currently. The actual Tax increase is 2.2% for everyone and the ones that would actually witness a substantial tax increase are the people who are making over 250k p/y.



He is losing to a person that has complete DNC Support, is known by 99.99% of the politically active population, was part of the administration of a popular president, has been backed by the entire party elite, raises millions of dollars from large donations and has several SuperPacs providing additional support with who she definitely doesn't coordinate
The primary results were always going to be lower than 2008, how anyone expected that Dem turnout would be higher is something I don't understand.
It's down to the actual people organizing online and in person to take the next step and vote to take back the government and push through progressive legislation. Getting Bernie into office is just the first of many steps. If he fails the end result will not be much different than if Hillary fails to win back the house and senate. But at least foreign policy difference would make me a lot more at ease with his policies.



So Polling is absolutely useless right now but somehow Hillary has an advantage despite doing worse. The media has barely focused on Hillary or Bernie(even less so) compared to Trump so all your points on Hillary being scrutinized is more of those attacks that are made by the right to fire up their base rather than anything substantial.



We also don't know how much Bernie Sanders gains once media attention is on him and all his policies are actually presented to the general public. So it's a two way street, he might lose some voters while gaining others - he was barely known six months ago and only now is the media attention really starting to illuminate his position to low information voters who have been following the Trump circus.

Fantastic post, especially agree with the point about the increased media attention possibly opening up his ideas to mew people.

Some critics say him being called a socialist is going to be damaging but in my mind, he explains his view of it very clearly and compares it to the countries that are pretty much universally praised for their social policies (European). Once people start hearing this and how it breaks down to it being a fair for everyone I think most will agree.

The Socialist boogie man is only dangerous if you shy away from it and not when you explain what it actually means and how it will benefit everyone. Many will change their opinions I bet once they hear the message.

 

[Your Entertainer]

Considering Hilary is the candidate who has given few specifics when pushed it's frankly funny.
When asked about Wall Street she pivots to 9/11, when asked about Climate Change she pivots to insurance, when asked about Social Security and how she would expand it she provides several options without commit to anyone of them, when asked about how she'd pay for paid leave she still doesn't provide how exactly she is going to raise taxes on the rich to pay.... Snip

Fantastic post dude - I especially agree with the first point about how Hillary hasn't always provided specifics when pushed.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Well, he's saying Bernie wants people to be scared of Hillary (a person) so...yeah.

The bogeyman is financial services and the Establishment™. Although I guess she is the Sith Lord of the latter.

 

[teruterubozu]

The bogeyman is financial services and the Establishment™. Although I guess she is the Sith Lord of the latter.

I think people see her as a Wall Street ass-kisser than any kind of overlord.

 

[Dirtyshubb]

I think people see her as a Wall Street ass-kisser than any kind of overlord.

Nothing shows this more than Hillary saying she never had anything to do with TTP yet wikileaks and separate people have verified that's bullshit.

Bernies line of 'they are so scared they gave you $15 million in campaign funds' has got to be a huge wake up call for a lot of people I bet. How can you squirm your way out of that?

 

[Grover Cleveland]

Fantastic post, especially agree with the point about the increased media attention possibly opening up his ideas to mew people.

Some critics say him being called a socialist is going to be damaging but in my mind, he explains his view of it very clearly and compares it to the countries that are pretty much universally praised for their social policies (European). Once people start hearing this and how it breaks down to it being a fair for everyone I think most will agree.

The Socialist boogie man is only dangerous if you shy away from it and not when you explain what it actually means and how it will benefit everyone. Many will change their opinions I bet once they hear the message.

All that's nice and good, but you and I both know that once a good chunk of middle class Americans hear the words "raising taxes", there will be nothing else that Bernie can say to save it.

Hell, look at how GAF reacted in that thread about his tax plans. How do you think the general population will take hearing that they're going to have to make significant financial sacrifices for the common good?

 

[JP_]

It's really odd that Clinton is the fear monger when Sanders is the one who is constantly telling spooky stories about how Wall Street boogeymen are the root of all of America's problems.

He energizes his campaign by tapping into people's fear and distrust. He literally talks about the capital "E" Establishment. He builds these rhetorical structures and drapes them in populism to deflect any critique or scrutiny. If you try to pin him down then you are being a political wonk, if you question the reality of his plans you are a fear monger.

Dude is a natural politician, a storyteller who knows his audience. You are right that Clinton is better when she can talk about breaking down barriers, which is why Sanders does his damndest to make that impossible for her.

How is what he does different than just promoting populism? Can you promote populism without pointing out the elites?

https://he.palgrave.com/resources/sample-chapters/9780230013490_sample.pdf

"We define populism as:
an ideology which pits a virtuous and homogeneous people against a set
of elites and dangerous ‘others’ who are together depicted as depriving
(or attempting to deprive) the sovereign people of their rights, values,
prosperity, identity and voice.1"

 

[royalan]

Nothing shows this more than Hillary saying she never had anything to do with TTP yet wikileaks and separate people have verified that's bullshit.

When had Hillary said she had nothing to do with TPP?

I've only ever seen her say that she was involved and supported it when she was in office, but revoked her support because she didn't like what it morphed into after she left.

 

[i_am_ben]

Bernie will be torn apart in a general election over his tax plan. I honestly think it makes him unviable.


Hillary hasn't really needed to go there yet but she will if she needs to.

 

[Dirtyshubb]

All that's nice and good, but you and I both know that once a good chunk of middle class Americans hear the words "raising taxes", there will be nothing else that Bernie can say to save it.

Hell, look at how GAF reacted in that thread about his tax plans. How do you think the general population will take hearing that they're going to have to make significant financial sacrifices for the common good?

That is a fair point, but once Bernie has the full attention of the media which so far has been minimal and dismisses and victories, and keeps hammering home the savings in other areas that will save a lot of people money overall I think that fear will be tackled well.

You also have to think that trump if he wins will try to attack Bernie on this but Bernie has proven he will attack people on their previous actions and not sling mud which trump will have a very hard time countering. Trumps inconsistencies are endless and no one has really focused on that to as much extent as Bernie will. Trump can't win that game if you refuse to play the game in the first place.

Edit:

When had Hillary said she had nothing to do with TPP?

I've only ever seen her say that she was involved and supported it when she was in office, but revoked her support because she didn't like what it morphed into after she left.

Sorry if the site/link aren't great, first thing I could find but I originally heard it on tyt so maybe I'm mistaken.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/07/politics/hillary-clinton-opposes-tpp/