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[nib95]

The biggest problem with Bernie's foreign policy arguments is his constant reference to the Iraq war vote in '02. Yes, he made the right call and Hillary didn't. It's a valid point. But we get it already! He brings it up over and over again, in every issue related to foreign policy, that it comes off as his default response to anything. And he himself (seemingly) put a pin in it tonight when he said the most important thing what we can learn from the experience of going to war in Iraq... and yet then once again reminded everyone that Hillary voted for it.

Iraq is one of the biggest political blunders in history, and a large part of the reason so much of this ISIS related mess exists today. He's right to trumpet it.

I also don't think he's asleep on foreign policy, I think it's just his ideas aren't typical establishment one's. In all honesty, ISIS leadership would probably dislike his plans more than most based on tonight's responses. They want big bad evil America to bomb their nations, whilst other Muslim countries oppose each other, that way ISIS can continuously recruit more people to their cause, and paint it as some sort of Western war against Islam. If as Bernie suggested it was instead Arab nations taking more of a charge, backed by a larger coalition, it'd be a different situation and story, giving them far less fuel for their fire.

 

[Vault Dweller 111]

I didn't know that Gaf hated the death penalty so much.

 

[Lemaitre]

Yea, we caused ISIS.

I know this is a message board on an off topic video game forum but such a statement necessitates more facts that your four words have.

 

[Effect]

I didn't know that Gaf hated the death penalty so much.

Some on Gaf. I never got the impression it was the majority.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I'm voting for a commander in chief. At this point, there's no way I'm comfortable with Bernie Sanders leading this country in conflict. If he had surrounded himself with people who knew an inkling about foreign policy, I'd feel better about him as a candidate.

DING. Exactly.

 

[ShironRedshift]

Bernies seemingly complete uninterest in foreign policy is worrying

It's fascinating, really. He's had all this time to brush up on it and still hasn't. At this point, I can only make one thing of it: the simple fact of the matter is, he doesn't care about it that much because he knows that's not his strong point and he'll get crushed on it regardless, so he doesn't seem to see the sense in wasting any time on it to begin with and just tries to get by on his strong point instead.

That of course is a mistake, and doesn't make any sense if he has any hopes of competing in the general since even in Clinton isn't the one to take him down on that, the GOP candidate will absolutely destroy him on it if he gets that far. So the fact that he continues to show disinterest with at least brushing up on it even now can only lead me to the feeling that even now, even at this point, Sanders doesn't truly think that he can pull it off at all and feels that Clinton will end up taking the primary and thus he's just focused on trying his hardest to drag her further to the left on domestic and social issues, since that's his best chance of having any effect on this race: affect and changing Clinton's policies and stances.

I just can't make anything else out of his continued disinterest and refusal to brush up on foreign policy, even now, if he seriously thinks he can not only make it through the primary but take the GOP candidate head-on. It only makes sense to me if he believes he doesn't truly have a shot and thus has to make the most of the time he has during the primaries to drag Clinton further to the left on what are his strong points, more social and economic issues, and thus regards brushing up on foreign policy as a waste of time and detrimental to such goals.

It just doesn't make sense to me any other way, cause otherwise, he's just flat out incompetent for not trying to do better in that area if he at all believes he actually does have a shot at this point since whether he likes it or not one of the President of the United State's roles is that of Commander in Chief and to just neglect that role to this degree is baffling.

 

[ApharmdX]

But what we should have learned is that sometimes you don't always have that option. Case in point: ISIS.

What? ISIS is a terrible example of that, and goes precisely against the point that you're trying to make.

 

[Gaogaogao]

how much does Bernie need to talk about corruption such that we don't forget to talk about it when he loses

depends if Hilary was serious about VP. but naturally, I dont trust her.

 

[elfboy]

Foreign policy is almost a non issue for me, and shouldn't be for most rational people when you see how disastrous our countries interventions have been in the past. A president who focuses more on domestic issues rather than world issues is exactly what I think we need

 

[ErasureAcer]

Bernie won another debate. Yeehaw.

 

[Grover]

TYT was just playing some debate clips back,

and i heard hillary says that she also wants to overturn citizens united, thats cool if true

 

[Arkeband]

Rubio isn't a leader either. When he comes out and criticizes Obama for speaking at a mosque and 'dividing' America, he just comes across as petty and petulant.

The poster I was responding to was saying he didn't look presidential because he looks and sounds old.

If we can have this dude as our president, Bernie is not out of the question.

 

[DarkKyo]

Damn, I missed this tonight..

So GAF, who won?

 

[Lemaitre]

I didn't know that Gaf hated the death penalty so much.

Seems pretty logical to most that killing anyone for any reason isn't the way to go. Something that alines us closer to Saudi Arabia/ISIS/terrorists in general.

 

[royalan]

Not sure how ISIS is a good example of anything you're attempting to prove? Elaborate?

And how does focusing/not focusing on ISIS have anything to do with economic/social policy in the U.S? Besides deflecting attention of course.

Hillary quoted Obama on this very issue in the last town hall and it was very correct: you don't always get to pick the issues you will have to deal with as President, and in which order. Especially in matters involving global unrest.

How many people knew four years ago that ISIS would grow to become such a substantial global threat pulling in damn near every superpower? Our commander in chief better be prepared to think fast and be knowledgeable on foreign policy instead of just "gotta take care of home first, dawg."

 

[Paskil]

Foreign policy is almost a non issue for me, and shouldn't be for most rational people when you see how disastrous our countries interventions have been in the past. A president who focuses more on domestic issues rather than world issues is exactly what I think we need

Foreign policy is more than just war and troop movements. Sanders has a gaping blind spot.

 

[ATF487]

Bernie has to get better at articulating himself on foreign policy. The question about whether he would draw down or increase Afghan troop levels was painful.

Yeah, overall I think I still like his agenda more than Hillary's, but it was the first time I was considering whether or not he has enough of a handle on all the issues that a president would need to face. He sounded out of his depth there.

 

[pigeon]

I mean, I gotta be honest. Eighty-two Democratic Reps and twenty-nine Democratic Senators voted for the Iraq War. The measure had a veto-proof majority in both houses (not that Bush was going to veto it, but you know, measure of support). No matter what Hillary did, it was going to pass.

It just doesn't seem reasonable to me to hold one senator responsible for the Iraq War for all time.

 

[Grover]

depends if Hilary was serious about VP

the only reason she left it vague like that is because she wants people to think that they can still get some Bernie even if they elect her

speaking of getting some Bernie

 

[HylianTom]

Damn, I missed this tonight..

So GAF, who won?

My impression: it was a push. Both/neither.

 

[Blader]

While I agree he's relying upon it too much its literally why we're fighting ISIS right now.

Yeah, if you want to draw the line that far back, though I think you could make the argument that the more definitive source of ISIS was the mishandling of post-Saddam Iraq and that a vote to invade Iraq -- whether justified or illegal -- does not automatically preclude fucking up the follow through that results in Al-Qaeda in Iraq and, later, ISIS.

That aside, this isn't a talking point that will get any traction in the general election anyway. Marco Rubio did not vote for the war in Iraq, Donald Trump did not vote for the war in Iraq, Ted Cruz did not vote for the war in Iraq. If they had the chance (and career for it), they undoubtedly would have, but it's not going to be a factor that can be held against them and I think Bernie is putting too much stock into this as the cornerstone of his foreign policy credentials.

 

[Paskil]

The poster I was responding to was saying he didn't look presidential because he looks and sounds old.



If we can have this dude as our president, Bernie is not out of the question.

But he's right though. Yours was a silly comment. Bernie was not a leader tonight. Even when Hillary stumbled, she was strong. Bernie was legitimately floundering, at points.

 

[A Human Becoming]

Bernie has to get better at articulating himself on foreign policy. The question about whether he would draw down or increase Afghan troop levels was painful.

I like the guy, I volunteer for his campaign, but his continued lack of improvement is weakening my support. I don't expect him to be as good as Hillary, I don't think any Republican could either, but at least be competent.

 

[elfboy]

Foreign policy is more than just war and troop movements. Sanders has a gaping blind spot.

What else really is it? Diplomatic relations, trade? Watching the debate it seemed Sanders had a pretty good grasp on that

 

[Gaogaogao]

the only reason she left it vague like that is because she wants people to think that they can still get some Bernie even if they elect her

speaking of getting some Bernie

fuck that

edit: lol

 

[Lemaitre]

Hillary quoted Obama on this very issue in the last town hall and it was very correct: you don't always get to pick the issues you will have to deal with as President, and in which order. Especially in matters involving global unrest.

How many people knew four years ago that ISIS would grow to become such a substantial global threat pulling in damn near every superpower? Our commander in chief better be prepared to think fast and be knowledgeable on foreign policy instead of just "gotta take care of home first, dawg."

A commander in chief being prepared for something like the growth of ISIS is impossible. Just in the same way Bush was prepared for 9/11.

And yes, taking care of the home first, dawg is more important than threats that we can't see coming.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I mean, I gotta be honest. Eighty-two Democratic Reps and twenty-nine Democratic Senators voted for the Iraq War. The measure had a veto-proof majority in both houses (not that Bush was going to veto it, but you know, measure of support). No matter what Hillary did, it was going to pass.

It just doesn't seem reasonable to me to hold one senator responsible for the Iraq War for all time.

Especially since she's not standing by that vote anymore.

 

[disastermouse]

The president doesn't get to choose what issues come up, they got to deal with what happens when it happens.

Sure, but Hillary consistently makes the WRONG decision.

 

[danm999]

I like the guy, I volunteer for his campaign, but his continued lack of improvement is weakening my support. I don't expect him to be as good as Hillary, I don't think any Republican could either, but at least be competent.

On the bright side, if he can improve himself to the point where he can hold his own against Clinton he is unlikely to have a problem with anybody on the GOP side.

 

[Arkeband]

But he's right though. It was a silly comment. Bernie was not a leader tonight. Even when Hillary stumbled, she was strong. Bernie was legitimately floundering, at points.

Well that's like, your opinion man. Hillary repeated that she took such huge sums of wealth from Wallstreet because 'it's what they offered'. Not a good look. Bad optics. Not presidential. (any other anti-Bernie buzz phrases I can appropriate?)

Especially since she's not standing by thst vote anymore.

lol yet somehow it's OK to trot out Bernie's vote in Wallstreet deregulation (377-4) and the crime bill, even when there is context to justify the latter.

 

[Vault Dweller 111]

Seems pretty logical to most that killing anyone for any reason isn't the way to go. Something that alines us closer to Saudi Arabia/ISIS/terrorists in general.

I suppose. I've never really given it a lot of thought myself.

But I do know that some people do such vile things that I think it's a legitimate question whether they should even be allowed on the planet anymore. Personally a lifetime in jail is worse than death. But if your asking me if I can think of better ways to spend tax money than to keep some fucking psycho who killed kids or something like that, alive in jail for 60 years? Yea, I can.

 

[GnawtyDog]

Solid debate. Nothing changed much.

 

[stupei]

I didn't know that Gaf hated the death penalty so much.

You're in a thread presumably filled with Democrats. Most of the views will be fairly, dare I say, progressive.

I suppose. I've never really given it a lot of thought myself.

But I do know that some people do such vile things that I think it's a legitimate question whether they should even be allowed on the planet anymore. Personally a lifetime in jail is worse than death. But if your asking me if I can think of better ways to spend tax money than to keep some fucking psycho who killed kids or something like that, alive in jail for 60 years? Yea, I can.

Actually, it's my understanding that the death penalty often ends up being more expensive because there are a lot more appeals available when you are set for execution and those are very expensive processes. I'm basing that off something I read a long time ago, however, so perhaps that's no longer true.

 

[TyphoonStruggle]

I just cant stand how HRC doesn't seem to understand that money in politics is a problem. Maybe it is currently the norm in the political climate. But Sanders' anti-money in politics is a large part of why he's so popular. If she can't grasp that, then I really have no idea what goes on in her head.

HRC is so fake. She has no idea what normal people need. She cannot lead this country.

P.S.: HRC is very knowledgeable about foreign policy. Which only makes her more dangerous given how likely she seems to bomb the shit out of other countries.

 

[royalan]

A commander in chief being prepared for something like the growth of ISIS is impossible. Just in the same way Bush was prepared for 9/11.

And again I'll say: "Our commander in chief better be prepared to think fast and be knowledgeable on foreign policy instead of just "gotta take care of home first, dawg."

I don't think Bernie exhibited an acceptable level of knowledge on the global players and their roles in the various conflicts plaguing the world right now.

 

[A Human Becoming]

On the bright side, if he can improve himself to the point where he can hold his own against Clinton he is unlikely to have a problem with anybody on the GOP side.

Agreed. He just needs to get there and soon.

 

[Paskil]

Well that's like, your opinion man. Hillary repeated that she took such huge sums of wealth from Wallstreet because 'it's what they offered'. Not a good look. Bad optics. Not presidential. (any other anti-Bernie buzz phrases I can appropriate?)

Bernie has the problem that he is completely ambivilant on foreign policy except on trade deals and ISIS. He needs to hire better staff that push back and challenge him and force him to go and get this shit done. He needs to lead.

 

[nib95]

How many people knew four years ago that ISIS would grow to become such a substantial global threat pulling in damn near every superpower? Our commander in chief better be prepared to think fast and be knowledgeable on foreign policy instead of just "gotta take care of home first, dawg."

Many people, including Bernie Sanders, foresaw that Iraq was a terrible move that would destabilise the region, and that's exactly what it did. I have more faith in some of the people who could see that coming (something not particularly surprising based on past foreign policy and interventions) to deal with these sorts of matters, than those who didn't.

Whilst Bernie lacked energy when speaking on foreign policy, none of his ideas were actually off base, in-fact I'd say they were incredibly sensible.

His plan for Syria was to get Iran and Saudi Arabia to come together and help Assad beat ISIS. Iran and Saudi Arabia hate each other with the intensity of a thousand suns. There's no way Saudi Arabia will help Iran/Assad. This is basic stuff that anyone who pays even the slightest attention to foreign policy would understand

I don't agree. Anyone can be brought to the table, especially when incentivised by other factors. Hell, you could argue that the United States and American's hate Iran with more passion than Saudi Arabia or Saudi Arabian's do, especially if you've been watching the Republican's and US media (e.g. Fox news) over the years, yet even the United States is making progress in that regard. There's no reason why there cannot be strides made to bring Saudi Arabia to that same position.

 

[damisa]

Yeah, overall I think I still like his agenda more than Hillary's, but it was the first time I was considering whether or not he has enough of a handle on all the issues that a president would need to face. He sounded out of his depth there.

His plan for Syria was to get Iran and Saudi Arabia to come together and help Assad beat ISIS. Iran and Saudi Arabia hate each other with the intensity of a thousand suns. There's no way Saudi Arabia will help Iran/Assad. This is basic stuff that anyone who pays even the slightest attention to foreign policy would understand

 

[Vault Dweller 111]

You're in a thread presumably filled with Democrats. Most of the views will be fairly, dare I say, progressive.



Actually, it's my understanding that the death penalty often ends up being more expensive because there are a lot more appeals available when you are set for execution and those are very expensive processes. I'm basing that off something I read a long time ago, however, so perhaps that's no longer true.

Interesting. I didn't know that. And as I said I've never given it much thought.

I guess killing someone who was later found innocent would be something insanely terrible.

Yea, I could definitely be talked into getting rid of it.

 

[Abinash117]

You're in a thread presumably filled with Democrats. Most of the views will be fairly, dare I say, progressive.

I think a good chunk of democrats support the death penalty, but most of GAF is slightly young, progressive, and probably not registered as a Democrat. I say it shouldn't be too surprising that most people are against the death penalty.

 

[Lemaitre]

And again I'll say: "Our commander in chief better be prepared to think fast and be knowledgeable on foreign policy instead of just "gotta take care of home first, dawg."

I don't think Bernie exhibited an acceptable level of knowledge on the global players and their roles in the various conflicts plaguing the world right now.

What constitutes acceptable to you? How does that acceptability have anything to do with global events that cannot be foreseen?

You can't use concrete events today to judge hypothetical situations of the future.

 

[ICKE]

His plan for Syria was to get Iran and Saudi Arabia to come together and help Assad beat ISIS. Iran and Saudi Arabia hate each other with the intensity of a thousand suns. There's no way Saudi Arabia will help Iran/Assad. This is basic stuff that anyone who pays even the slightest attention to foreign policy would understand

Also he seemed to somewhat discount Russia's belligerence and concentrated on North Korea. Sanders just isn't interested about these issues it seems, I don't think he can handle foreign policy.

And if you can't handle foreign policy, then you shouldn't be running for the office.

 

[Epsilon-delta]

I know this is a message board on an off topic video game forum but such a statement necessitates more facts that your four words have.

We invaded Iraq on fear because of 9/11 and then botched it up royally after Saddam was taken out of power, which gave rise to ISIS.

 

[danm999]

Whilst Bernie lacked energy when speaking on foreign policy, none of his ideas were actually off base, in-fact I'd say they were incredibly sensible.

He didn't have an idea of what to do in Afghanistan, and his Iran-Saudi Arabia coalition idea for ISIS isn't feasible.

 

[Suikoguy]

What constitutes acceptable to you? How does that acceptability have anything to do with global events that cannot be foreseen?

You can't use concrete events today to judge hypothetical situations of the future.

That line of thinking makes it where you can't use anything for anything. lol

 

[Blader]

A commander in chief being prepared for something like the growth of ISIS is impossible. Just in the same way Bush was prepared for 9/11.

And yes, taking care of the home first, dawg is more important than threats that we can't see coming.

From day one to the day of, Bush's administration was warned dozens of times about those attacks.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

Rubio isn't a leader either. When he comes out and criticizes Obama for speaking at a mosque and 'dividing' America, he just comes across as petty and petulant.

Rubio, and people like him are the one being extraordinarily divisive, so it's always amusing to hear them suggest otherwise.

 

[Lemaitre]

Many people, including Bernie Sanders, foresaw that Iraq was a terrible move that would destabilise the region, and that's exactly what it did. I have more faith in some of the people who could see that coming (something not particularly surprising based on past foreign policy and interventions) to deal with these sorts of matters, than those who didn't.

Whilst Bernie lacked energy when speaking on foreign policy, none of his ideas were actually off base, in-fact I'd say they were incredibly sensible.

Quite frankly I find it odd that people criticize a possible President for caring more about her/his country than the world out there. The U.S. has to stop trying to game-plan for the whole world. That's why we neglect the home turf dawgs.

 

[Gaogaogao]

I want to vote for president of the united states, not president of the world.

I think im ok with a lack of focus on foreign policy for a change.