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Democratic Primary Debate V

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I wonder, is he admitting defeat then? I mean, certainly it's a big issue, but if money in politics is truly as big of an issue as he makes it out to be, then he has no chance at defeating Hillary and even less of a chance of defeating his GOP opponents, because they're extra money precludes any chance he his of winning, right?

And if he somehow manages to not only defeat Clinton, but also his GOP opponent... then how much of an impact does stuff like Citizens United really have? I mean, certainly it has an impact, but if he manages to win in spite of it and despite not taking SuperPAC money and nonetheless winning against people who took tons from SuperPAC, how can one simultaneously argue that it's not just an important issue, but the most important issue, when you won anyway, something that should be impossible under that logic?

It just seems there's a contradiction in there somewhere--if it's really that big of a deal, he's admitting it's impossible to win. But if he does manage to win, despite not using SuperPAC money himself, how big of a deal can it truly be if it didn't stop him from getting his message across and the people choosing him despite all that money being thrown around. It just seems odd to me.
It is less about presidential races and more about congress. Nationally a presidential candidate can raise enough money to compete. But a progressive congressional candidate in a rural area can't raise enough to compete with superpac money.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
From the standpoint of the US?

Absolutely

Less significant to the US versus those living in Europe. Fair enough. Still pretty significant though.
 
Still blows my mind that hillary is for the death penalty. With all the 'im so progressive' stuff I really assumed that perspective of her's 'evolved' as well. Who the fuck is in favor of the death penalty? Come on.
 

Vice

Member
Still blows my mind that hillary is for the death penalty. With all the 'im so progressive' stuff I really assumed that perspective of her's 'evolved' as well. Who the fuck is in favor of the death penalty? Come on.

Over half the country is in favor of it, IIRC.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Still blows my mind that hillary is for the death penalty. With all the 'im so progressive' stuff I really assumed that perspective of her's 'evolved' as well. Who the fuck is in favor of the death penalty? Come on.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/1606/death-penalty.aspx
The super majority.

I can't see supporting it given the justice system being such a pile of shit sometimes.

The good news is the trend is downwards.
 

Blader

Member
The biggest problem with Bernie's foreign policy arguments is his constant reference to the Iraq war vote in '02. Yes, he made the right call and Hillary didn't. It's a valid point. But we get it already! He brings it up over and over again, in every issue related to foreign policy, that it comes off as his default response to anything. And he himself (seemingly) put a pin in it tonight when he said the most important thing what we can learn from the experience of going to war in Iraq... and yet then once again reminded everyone that Hillary voted for it.
 

dlauv

Member
I'm more concerned about the stuff at home, and I'm not convinced Hillary will accomplish what she's setting out to do. I know Bernie is more radical in his ideology, but Obama seemed less flimsy than Hillary. Every time she speaks she seems like she's in her own head trying to formulate the most calculated and correct answer. Whenever I see her become snarky, I like her more.

Bernie seems like the far more earnest and passionate candidate. He is very eloquent and delivers all of his concerns like a concerned human being would. He seemed a little lost on Foreign policy, but I think he had better values concerning it, which is a great foundation to move forward on. Hillary seems like a status quo bid that may or may not better Obamacare. And a little warhungry. And maybe a little indecisive when she can be, which isn't inherently bad, but leaves her seeming like the more directionless of the two. I just feel like with Bernie, the worst possible thing we could get from him is status quo.
 
Most people don't really care about foreign policy. They care about health care, college tuition and money in politics. This is some of the reasons I think Bernie is the better candidate. Most people care about the issues Bernie is putting forward.

ISIS will be a major GE talking point. If Sanders tries to reset the conversation to domestic issues he'll get roasted by the GOP
 

Geist-

Member
Bernies seemingly complete uninterest in foreign policy is worrying
Still has enough good policies to get my vote, but I really wish he would start preparing for FP questions before a debate. It always seems like he's surprised by them.
 
The biggest problem with Bernie's foreign policy arguments is his constant reference to the Iraq war vote in '02. Yes, he made the right call and Hillary didn't. It's a valid point. But we get it already! He brings it up over and over again, in every issue related to foreign policy, that it comes off as his default response to anything. And he himself (seemingly) put a pin in it tonight when he said the most important thing what we can learn from the experience of going to war in Iraq... and yet then once again reminded everyone that Hillary voted for it.
While I agree he's relying upon it too much its literally why we're fighting ISIS right now.
 

Arkeband

Banned
The biggest problem with Bernie's foreign policy arguments is his constant reference to the Iraq war vote in '02. Yes, he made the right call and Hillary didn't. It's a valid point. But we get it already! He brings it up over and over again, in every issue related to foreign policy, that it comes off as his default response to anything. And he himself (seemingly) put a pin in it tonight when he said the most important thing what we can learn from the experience of going to war in Iraq... and yet then once again reminded everyone that Hillary voted for it.

It's almost as repetitive as Hillary's touted experience with FP, yet her FP is known mostly for its blunders.
 

noshten

Member
That's why I prefer her to Bernie. Bernie is a great idealogue, but he is just not a leader (IMO).

Personally I prefer Sander's foreign policy - fair trade deals trying to eliminate slave wage at home and abroad. Paying more attention to a mad man with a Nuclear Weapon able to carry out genocide in hours. Trying to be more evenhanded in the middle east by continuing dialog with Iran.
 
Luckily presidents get to surround themselves with dozens if not hundreds of experts in all sorts of fields. I like to think that his administration as a whole would help him on foreign policy issues and trade issues when necessary. Hillary is without a doubt the better foreign policy pick even if she comes with Saudi strings attached.

One of Sanders' biggest weaknesses is the people he's chosen to surround himself with though.
 

Geist-

Member
Personally I prefer Sander's foreign policy - fair trade deals trying to eliminate slave wage at home and abroad. Paying more attention to a mad man with a Nuclear Weapon able to carry out genocide in hours. Trying to be more evenhanded in the middle east by continuing dialog with Iran.
Right, he has good ideas, he just doesn't convey them confidently. He needs to work on that.
 

Lemaitre

Banned
That would be nice but the president doesn't get to choose when foreign issues come up.

So how does not talking about foreign issues of today have anything to do with hypothetical issues that will "come up"? Of course any sitting President will have daily briefs on global events/issues/calamities.
 

Pastry

Banned
Luckily presidents get to surround themselves with dozens if not hundreds of experts in all sorts of fields. I like to think that his administration as a whole would help him on foreign policy issues and trade issues when necessary. Hillary is without a doubt the better foreign policy pick even if she comes with Saudi strings attached.

Well if his campaign staff is any indication...
 

Grover

Banned
It is less about presidential races and more about congress. Nationally a presidential candidate can raise enough money to compete. But a progressive congressional candidate in a rural area can't raise enough to compete with superpac money.

money in politics is the reason Flint Michigan couldn't afford detroit water for its residents anymore because governor Snyder gave tons of tax breaks to big businesses, costing the state billions of dollars

so because Gov. Snyder has to scratch the backs of the people who helped him get elected, that means he has to get that money back somewhere, and it happened to be through the wellbeing of the children in his state
 
money in politics is the reason Flint Michigan couldn't afford detroit water for its residents anymore because governor Snyder gave tons of tax breaks to big businesses, costing the state billions of dollars

so because Gov. Snyder has to scratch the backs of the people who helped him get elected, that means he has to get that money back somewhere, and it happened to be through the wellbeing of the children in his state

Sorry to break this to you, but Republican's would be for giving rich people massive tax breaks and fucking over the infrastructure of poor brown or black people even under publicly funded elections.
 
I'm voting for a commander in chief. At this point, there's no way I'm comfortable with Bernie Sanders leading this country in conflict. If he had surrounded himself with people who knew an inkling about foreign policy, I'd feel better about him as a candidate.
 

Lemaitre

Banned
But what we should have learned is that sometimes you don't always have that option. Case in point: ISIS.

Not sure how ISIS is a good example of anything you're attempting to prove? Elaborate?

And how does focusing/not focusing on ISIS have anything to do with economic/social policy in the U.S? Besides deflecting attention of course.
 
The president doesn't get to choose what issues come up, they got to deal with what happens when it happens.
And presidents always get tested, and foreign leaders will probe us.

If you don't project authority and judgment than maybe others in leadership will end up making the real decisions, whether that's being boxed in by the Joint Chiefs or deferring to a heartless VP from the dark side.
 

zoozilla

Member
I know it's early, but Bernie better have a kick-ass VP in mind.

Ideally a young, minority woman from somewhere outside the East Coast with excellent foreign policy chops.

Gotta plug up those weaknesses somehow.
 

danm999

Member
Bernie has to get better at articulating himself on foreign policy. The question about whether he would draw down or increase Afghan troop levels was painful.
 

Justin

Member
So how does not talking about foreign issues of today have anything to do with hypothetical issues that will "come up"? Of course any sitting President will have daily briefs on global events/issues/calamities.

I'm saying it seems to be of no interest to him at all. I can see maybe a governor that hasn't had to deal with these situations stumbling in a primary with foreign policy questions by not someone that has been in washington as long as he has.
 
But invading a country sounds scarier than what's actually happening.

Russia is essentially supporting an insurgency to retain a part of Ukraine when a few years ago all of Ukraine was allied to them.

Not very expansionist.

Overreacting to such a non-event. That's the danger from the US side.

To say that it is such an none event is incorrect and in fact very insulting. I surprised some one even said that.

You realized that this is the first time in decades that someone actually annexed a part of a country, right? The first time in decades that a war appeared in Europe and the first time in awhile that relations to the west and Russia is has bad as during the Cold War. One of the US policies is to make allies feel like they got their back and also making sure that the US has a military power in the Europe mostly through NATO. The event in Ukraine brought the feeling that NATO is important again to some European nations and to the ones that aren't even in NATO.

Lastly, how the hell it isn't expansionist when they took control of part of a country through military force and then proceed to destabilize the country through supporting people in a mini-civil war?
 
money in politics is the reason Flint Michigan couldn't afford detroit water for its residents anymore because governor Snyder gave tons of tax breaks to big businesses, costing the state billions of dollars

so because Gov. Snyder has to scratch the backs of the people who helped him get elected, that means he has to get that money back somewhere, and it happened to be through the wellbeing of the children in his state
It's the Republican way, putting corporate profits over the well being of your middle and lower class citizens.
 
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