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[Men_in_Boxes]

In the latest episode of "Maybe the media is taking liberties with us" we learn that Destiny 2 has been a top 10 grossing game on Steam every year since...it launched in 2019.

Steam publishes a best selling list at the end of each year and groups them by catergory. Platinum, Gold, Silver, Bronze etc... Destiny 2 landed in the Platinum category every year since it launched on Steam.

Best of 2019 - Top Sellers

This list is as self-explanatory as it sounds - a look at games earning the most revenue in 2019. When measuring revenue, we look at game sales, in-game transactions and DLC associated with the game in question. You'll probably notice some familiar games that were in previous year's lists, along...

store.steampowered.com

Best of Steam - 2023

A look back at the year's top sellers, new releases, most-played games, and more!

store.steampowered.com

The game seems to be very efficient in extracting dollars per user as it's rarely in the top 10 of most popular games on Steam. This suggests it's punching above it's position on console as well. Now someone tell me what I'm missing... for a team size that's fluctuated between 300 - 400 large over the last 5 years, how does this narrative that Bungie is on it's last legs get any oxygen? There are a number of 200 - 400 person single player AAA studios that go on 6 year droughts, and release a successful game. Why is it that we're supposed to believe Destiny 2 is teetering on the brink of failure again when it regularly out earns other successful "drought games" like Resident Evil 4 on PC?

Something isn't adding up. What am I not seeing?

 

[Bry0]

Because the studio had 1000+ people while burning cash on projects that never release. And the games’ player base wasn’t growing to support them.

I don’t know where your 300-400 number comes from.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I don’t know where your 300-400 number comes from.

I thought something leaked recently showing roughly 400 employees were working on Destiny 2, 400 working on Marathon, and the rest were working on non game related or incubation projects. I'll try to find it.

 

[Bry0]

I thought something leaked recently showing roughly 400 employees were working on Destiny 2, 400 working on Marathon, and the rest were working on non game related or incubation projects. I'll try to find it.

Yeah but Destiny is the only revenue stream, you still need to pay the other 600+ employees not working on Destiny.

Even a company with a successful product can sink when it’s mismanaged

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Yeah but Destiny is the only revenue stream, you still need to pay the other 600+ employees not working on Destiny.

But that's how all games work. Tons of larger studios go 6+ years without generating significant revenue.

Destiny 2 is crushing it on PC (and likely console) every single year. That consistent revenue stream seems to help alleviate a lot of financial pressure from a title like Marathon.

I don't know if this inforgraphic is valid but if Resident Evil 4 (Gold tier) generated 159 million dollars on Steam in 2023, and Destiny 2 (Platinum tier) out earned that then it means Destiny 2 is a mythical money printing machine.

 

[Loomy]

Two things:
Destiny 2 could be doing a lot better in terms of player engagement and content delivery. Is a very good game with the potential to be great. They keep tripping over themselves.

GAF is a bubble. Most things on here are doom, gloom, and cynicism.

Most people outside of the forum just want to play video games and don’t care about any of the drama around games and game studios.

 

[Wooxsvan]

basic accounting. look at an income statement. grossing doesn't mean anything without context of your expenses

 

[Bry0]

But that's how all games work. Tons of larger studios go 6+ years without generating significant revenue.

Destiny 2 is crushing it on PC (and likely console) every single year. That consistent revenue stream seems to help alleviate a lot of financial pressure from a title like Marathon.

I don't know if this inforgraphic is valid but if Resident Evil 4 (Gold tier) generated 159 million dollars on Steam in 2023, and Destiny 2 (Platinum tier) out earned that then it means Destiny 2 is a mythical money printing machine.

Yeah I’m not disagreeing about destiny making a lot of money but if your expenditures are too high it doesn’t matter. Those other studios aren’t burning cash on 800 other employees that never release anything. It’s not really that deep.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

basic accounting. look at an income statement. grossing doesn't mean anything without context of your expenses

It gives us a rough estimate though. Bungie was 1,500 employees. Now they're 850 employees.

1,500 employees at 100k per year is 150 million. I know there's more to it than that, but they seem to be generating so much money that they can afford to use the friday of every week to shovel money into a fire pit and still come out in the red.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Yeah I’m not disagreeing about destiny making a lot of money but if your expenditures are too high it doesn’t matter. Those other studios aren’t burning cash on 800 other employees that never release anything. It’s not really that deep.

I think it strongly suggests that the narrative of "PlayStation bought a lemon" is completely fabricated. The media basically sold a fake story to a gullible audience because clicks are all that matter.

 

[Dynasty8]

I don't buy too many games nowadays, but I do get every new Destiny expansion every year that comes out. It's still a very fun and very unique game with hybrid PvE and PvP activities connected with some awesome end game activities like raids and dungeons that don't exist in these other loot related games.

People don't see all there is to this game which is understandable, but there's literally NOTHING like it on the market and that's why it's so popular.

What does piss me off is how much the execs at Bungie fumbled the ball and how they tried to become like Blizzard so prematurely. Destiny's success should have paved the way for a better future and more ambitious Destiny and maybe one other new IP....not three other incubation projects with it.

 

[Guilty_AI]

It gives us a rough estimate though. Bungie was 1,500 employees. Now they're 850 employees.

1,500 employees at 100k per year is 150 million. I know there's more to it than that, but they seem to be generating so much money that they can afford to use the friday of every week to shovel money into a fire pit and still come out in the red.

you're also forgetting game studios usually don't see even half of their game's revenue, due to store fees, payment proccess fees and taxes.

 

[Loomy]

I think it strongly suggests that the narrative of "PlayStation bought a lemon" is completely fabricated. The media basically sold a fake story to a gullible audience because clicks are all that matter.

I think you and I agreed on this in another thread, but I'm sure Sony knew exactly what they were buying in terms of the ticking time bomb that it turned out to be. That's an easy, heartless fix though. Cut the size of the company down by ~20% over 2 years and you'll find yourself out of the red. At the end of that you'll still have one of the most played games around in terms of MAU. That's what they're banking on. That and the potential for the IP in other media.

 

[FalsettoVibe]

They should just make Destiny 3 with Firewalk (with no input on character design) as a support studio.

 

[Gojiira]

Yeah Destiny 2 makes insane money but Bungie burns through it faster than its generated, add to this multiple cancelled projects,delays etc and the mismanagement adds up.
Though I agree the doom and gloom surrounding the game and Bungie is wildly overblown, they are still talented devs, and now that Sony is reining them in hopefully they will get back on track

 

[Pegasus Actual]

Well, its spinoff game got cancelled. It put out its last real expansion and they are pivoting to lesser content drops. Player count is hemorrhaging post-expansion at an increased rate.

If they announced a new full expansion to 'start the next Destiny journey' or some bullshit indicating years of support, and reinvested in the game, Destiny player sentiment would be higher as opposed to everyone all of a sudden becoming real "Warframe-curious".

Instead it sounds like they tried to put a little more juice into this last expansion but didn't see an additional return, meanwhile the incubation projects have all pooped themselves, and nobody seems that excited about their other money-sink in Marathon...

I have no problem with them firing a few hundred people and streamlining their operations. I'm just not that confident in the operations either.

 

[tommib]

But that's how all games work. Tons of larger studios go 6+ years without generating significant revenue.

Destiny 2 is crushing it on PC (and likely console) every single year. That consistent revenue stream seems to help alleviate a lot of financial pressure from a title like Marathon.

I don't know if this inforgraphic is valid but if Resident Evil 4 (Gold tier) generated 159 million dollars on Steam in 2023, and Destiny 2 (Platinum tier) out earned that then it means Destiny 2 is a mythical money printing machine.

Seeing AC6 with the big boys there brings a tear to my eyes.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

you're also forgetting game studios usually don't see even half of their game's revenue, due to store fees, payment proccess fees and taxes.

Yeah, but all companies deal with this. It doesn't take away from the fact that Destiny 2 is consistently one of the highest earning games on the PC platform (likely doubling that on console) every year. They don't have to wind up for 6 years straight without generating a cent like so many other studios do.

This story always smelled foul. Looks like my intuition was right.

 

[Kokoloko85]

GAF is a bubble. Most things on here are doom, gloom, and cynicism.

Most people outside of the forum just want to play video games and don’t care about any of the drama around games and game studios.

This.
Plus Destiny 2 was basically funding 3+ other projects as well as its own studio

 

[{insert code here}]

Number 1 in revenue for about 5 years now and that was still not enough cash flow to operate the business. Can't use the greedy shareholders argument here either because there were no shareholders, Bungie was private at this time. Can use the incompetent management argument tho because I don't know how you generate that much revenue and 5 years later wind up on the verge of bankruptcy.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Number 1 in revenue for about 5 years now and that was still not enough cash flow to operate the business. Can't use the greedy shareholders argument here either because there were no shareholders, Bungie was private at this time. Can use the incompetent management argument tho because I don't know how you generate that much revenue and 5 years later wind up on the verge of bankruptcy.

Where does it say that they were on the verge of bankruptcy? Receipts please my good man.

 

[poppabk]

When you are in the same sales bracket as mega flop Starfield then you know you have failed.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Yeah, but all companies deal with this. It doesn't take away from the fact that Destiny 2 is consistently one of the highest earning games on the PC platform (likely doubling that on console) every year. They don't have to wind up for 6 years straight without generating a cent like so many other studios do.

This story always smelled foul. Looks like my intuition was right.

The point is if Destiny 2 brings around 400 million dollars a year they'd probably be seeing around 130-150 million of that money. Add this to your math earlier and suddenly the layoffs and missed revenue targets start making sense.

As others have tried telling you here, high gross revenue means nothing if that money doesn't pay off your operation costs. GAAS cost a lot to make and maintain, whereas you can get away with cheaper Single player games made by smaller teams. BG3 team for example is like less than 1/3 of what Bungie was before the lay-offs.

 

[Shubh_C63]

That's what I had in mind too. Destiny almost always is on top 20 number of players, revenue reports now says it fares at even better rank, fans always buys the expansion and plays almost all the activity within 3 days of launch to exhaustion.

It just didn't made sense how Bungie could be having such disastrous financial management. But they did. It can't be all a farce. Or the fact that there is nothing like that in the market indicates maybe the operating cost were really that high.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

What am I not seeing?

i dunno like... the blog post from Pete himself explaining what happened

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

I think it strongly suggests that the narrative of "PlayStation bought a lemon" is completely fabricated. The media basically sold a fake story to a gullible audience because clicks are all that matter.

I assume you know how much of that money they burned through on operating costs and other projects?

 

[sainraja]

Two things:
Destiny 2 could be doing a lot better in terms of player engagement and content delivery. Is a very good game with the potential to be great. They keep tripping over themselves.

GAF is a bubble. Most things on here are doom, gloom, and cynicism.

Most people outside of the forum just want to play video games and don’t care about any of the drama around games and game studios.

Very much so.

There are also groups of people here that just want to see the game fail. People are weird.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I assume you know how much of that money they burned through on operating costs and other projects?

No but I think Bungie and PlayStation do and they both reached an agreement to sell the company for 3.6B. That doesn't strike me as a realistic number if Bungie wasn't extremely profitable.

 

[laynelane]

I assume you know how much of that money they burned through on operating costs and other projects?

I'm reminded of the reason why MS chose not buy them - positives were IP attainment, Destiny and its community, and integration of its devs and live ops infrastructure into XGS. However:

Acquiring Bungie was genuinely enticing to the company, as they referred to hundreds of hours of Destiny played on their platforms. But Microsoft’s documents also indicated that they saw a high burn-rate risk for the studio. What that means, in plain English, is that they saw that Bungie was spending more money than they could make back.

(bolded mine)

Source.

Considering the re-structuring/lay-offs that are presently occurring, it would seem that Sony has now also realized that this is an issue.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

No but I think Bungie and PlayStation do and they both reached an agreement to sell the company for 3.6B. That doesn't strike me as a realistic number if Bungie wasn't extremely profitable.

You have every right to think that as well as do people who, like the post right after you that laynelane quoted:

Acquiring Bungie was genuinely enticing to the company, as they referred to hundreds of hours of Destiny played on their platforms. But Microsoft’s documents also indicated that they saw a high burn-rate risk for the studio. What that means, in plain English, is that they saw that Bungie was spending more money than they could make back.

Plus we have former employees of saying "Sony paid for too much when they spent $ 3.6 billion for the studio, because they didn’t have the capacity to deliver profits and performance at the scale that they had promised."

So I tend to believe an internal Xbox email saying they saw the high burn rate

 

[laynelane]

You have every right to think that as well as do people who, like the post right after you that laynelane quoted:

Acquiring Bungie was genuinely enticing to the company, as they referred to hundreds of hours of Destiny played on their platforms. But Microsoft’s documents also indicated that they saw a high burn-rate risk for the studio. What that means, in plain English, is that they saw that Bungie was spending more money than they could make back.

Plus we have former employees of saying "Sony paid for too much when they spent $ 3.6 billion for the studio, because they didn’t have the capacity to deliver profits and performance at the scale that they had promised."

So I tend to believe an internal Xbox email saying they saw the high burn rate

Looking at it now, the financial goals that Sony set in order for Bungie to retain their independence come across as an 'iron hand in a velvet glove' situation. They also saw the risk that MS did, but gave Bungie a chance to correct it. The fact that they had those conditions in the first place, though, may indicate they had doubts on whether they would succeed and so planned accordingly in negotiations.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

You have every right to think that as well as do people who, like the post right after you that laynelane quoted:

Acquiring Bungie was genuinely enticing to the company, as they referred to hundreds of hours of Destiny played on their platforms. But Microsoft’s documents also indicated that they saw a high burn-rate risk for the studio. What that means, in plain English, is that they saw that Bungie was spending more money than they could make back.

"High burn rate risk" = "They saw Bungie spending more money than they could make back"

It doesn't mean that. Pete Parsons said the following in last weeks blog post...

"Additionally, in 2023, our rapid expansion ran headlong into a broad economic slowdown, a sharp downturn in the games industry, our quality miss with Destiny 2: Lightfall, and the need to give both The Final Shape and Marathon the time needed to ensure both projects deliver at the quality our players expect and deserve. We were overly ambitious, our financial safety margins were subsequently exceeded, and we began running in the red."

The two worst months for Destiny 2 in 2023 were in October and November when it averaged 40k CCU on Steam. That likely means for the first time in the games history, Destiny 2 and the 400 person team making it, were not able to cover the expenses of the whole entire 1,200 person studio. I think it's safe to say the game has been profitable for the entire studio for the vast majority of months post PlayStation purchase.

Plus we have former employees of saying "Sony paid for too much when they spent $ 3.6 billion for the studio, because they didn’t have the capacity to deliver profits and performance at the scale that they had promised."

I remember when someone from Epic did an interview just after the success of Fortnite and they retold a story about how the leaders within Epic went around a table and everyone gave their estimates for how many total players Fortnite Battle Royale would see. One of the team members said something like 500k and everyone laughed at him for being overly optimistic.

The no name employee who might be a QA tester for the studio, OBVIOUSLY does not have a crystal ball for what the next 10 years of Bungie looks like. I wouldn't put too much stock into any estimates about Marathon when we're 18 months from launch.

So I tend to believe an internal Xbox email saying they saw the high burn rate.

And again, there's way too much context missing from this email. What was Bungie asking from Microsoft where they didn't think the burn rate risk was worth it. Did they even get to that point? Why did PlayStation, who had access to the same numbers as XBox, think the risk was worth it? Also, couldn't it be argued that PlayStation leadership has been generally more astute than XBox leadership over the last 5 - 10 years?

All this just boils down to one simple fact. If Marathon pops off, this whole conversation will be proven silly. No one here knows what the 3.6 billion dollars will yield over the next 10 years. My entire point is that the proverbial game hasn't even kicked off so people trying to call the final score right now look silly.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Your entire first post was how D2 was in the top 10 top sellers list but nothing here says how much money they were actually making as you have a lot of feelings and I thinks in these posts

Good luck defending your preferred box though, its going so well

 

[{insert code here}]

Where does it say that they were on the verge of bankruptcy? Receipts please my good man.

Bruh they restructured the entire business. Reduced headcount by what 20%. Had a project cancelled/moved to another studio. You don't do ANY of those things when the business is healthy let alone all three. The receipts are right in front of you .

Edit: Reading some more of this thread. Literal waste of time here, OP is a .

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Bruh they restructured the entire business. Reduced headcount by what 20%. Had a project cancelled/moved to another studio. You don't do ANY of those things when the business is healthy let alone all three. The receipts are right in front of you .

Edit: Reading some more of this thread. Literal waste of time here, OP is a .

So no receipts. As expected...

 

[Loomy]

You have every right to think that as well as do people who, like the post right after you that laynelane quoted:

Acquiring Bungie was genuinely enticing to the company, as they referred to hundreds of hours of Destiny played on their platforms. But Microsoft’s documents also indicated that they saw a high burn-rate risk for the studio. What that means, in plain English, is that they saw that Bungie was spending more money than they could make back.

Plus we have former employees of saying "Sony paid for too much when they spent $ 3.6 billion for the studio, because they didn’t have the capacity to deliver profits and performance at the scale that they had promised."

So I tend to believe an internal Xbox email saying they saw the high burn rate

To be fair Zenimax/Bethesda was in the same situation, which is why they were looking to be acquired, and Microsoft spent more on them. They wisely determined that their assets were more valuable than Destiny(I know. No shit lol).

My assumption is that Sony saw the same thing Microsoft saw in Bungie and decided to spend the money anyways, so I doubt this is shocking to them.

With the benefit of hindsight, this quote from Totoki earlier in the year seems like it was speaking at Bungie lol:

"However, having said that," the CEO adds, "when it comes to the business, I think there is room for improvement. And that’s to do with how to use money, the schedule of development, and how to fulfill one’s accountability towards development – those are my frank impressions." Totoki then says that he will continue to meet with people across the business "so that we can find the right way to proceed."
-Gamesradar

 

[simpatico]

They must be absolutely terrible at managing money. Its possible.

 

[diffusionx]

OP doesn’t understand the concept of an income statement

 

[ResilientBanana]

They must be absolutely terrible at managing money. Its possible.

They suck at managing everything. Ever since Halo 2, even Microsoft had issues with them completing shit on time.

 

[justiceiro]

Isn't destiny also one of the 9 games responsible for half of the profit in playstation store?

I think it's pretty clear that there is a lot of people being overpaid on this company, but I doubt that are the developers.