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[Crayon]

If we get a PS5 pro and no Xbox, I wonder if they're only going to line up the pro against top pc's again. Actually I don't know if they did that every time. But from what I watched back then that's what they did before the x1x came out.

 

[Ozzie666]

DF Retro is all that matters.

Where all the internal Phil emails released before they recorded this? DF just stuck to the hardware, it will be interesting to see if they 'sweep' things under the carpet on their next episode.

 

[solidus12]

I still find it funny that DF said they prefer Xbox’s proprietary storage expansion over PlayStation’s standard NVME option.

 

[TheUndeadGamer]

Awww the Dragon on the right is “adorably digital.” He looks like he’s having a good time without discs.

 

[Little Chicken]

With the ABK deal going through, MS becomes the most profitable gaming company of the three. They don't really need a Pro console now and will instead just concentrate on next gen, where perhaps they will have a Pro console.

They've already talked about how expensive the Xbox One X was per unit, so I'm not surprised.

In any case, I love new hardware so I'm excited for PS5 Pro and the new Switch.

 

[Nonehxc]

I think Xbox is going to try to be different coming up very soon

I think Xbox may shift course and launch their next Xbox sooner than 2028 and avoid launching in the same calendar year as Sony

These are just guesses

Yep, that's what I'm thinking, Xbox360 again. Or some sort of mischievous PR where Xbox Series 'Pro' is labeled as the next generation or something. Like releasing it at the 3/4ths of the generation mark with some improved components and such, not a generational leap but a definite improvement over PS5 Pro. You know ColtEastwood and the rest of the sycophants are gonna trumpet it like they're the Archangels sounding every seal broken 'PS5 Pro is a lame midgen refresh, Xbox are selling you a new next gen system lol'

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Yep, that's what I'm thinking, Xbox360 again. Or some sort of mischievous PR where Xbox Series 'Pro' is labeled as the next generation or something. Like releasing it at the 3/4ths of the generation mark with some improved components and such, not a generational leap but a definite improvement over PS5 Pro. You know ColtEastwood and the rest of the sycophants are gonna trumpet it like they're the Archangels sounding every seal broken 'PS5 Pro is a lame midgen refresh, Xbox are selling you a new next gen system lol'

This is one of the break glass in case of emergency playbooks

I think

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

The PS5 Pro has multiple reasons to exist:
1. You keep more people on the PS ecosystem when they might have switched over to PC due to the stronger hardware that comes over time.
2. The people that buy the more expensive machine have more disposable income, so on average they are more valuable customers. A person that buys such a machine is more inclined to invest into it to justify their purchase.
3. You create a new wave of marketing that keeps the Playstation brand fresh and into the news.
4. You have a Halo product. Its existence indirectly affects the base PS5. Like Richard said, a 4090 is miniscule in volume compared to the other GPUs, but Nvidia does all they can to have such a product in the market, showing that they have the strongest product even though it's bad performance/$ and you'll never buy it anyway.
5. DF, NXGamer, VGTech, etc become your free marketing tools. Every single 3rd party game will be played best on Playstation (console comparisons only ofc).
6. Better Backwards Compatibility. All PS5 games will benefit from the new hardware. Locked 30, 40, 60 fps. Does GT7 run at 90 fps? Boom 120.
7. Better Forward Compatibility. Games that have PS5 Pro taken into account, will have higher resolution, assets and frame rates unlocked for PS6.
8. PSVR2 becomes a more attractive product if you have stronger hardware running games on it.
9. "The most powerful console in the world" tagline is something Sony can actually use.
10. "Did you buy a Series X in order to have the most powerful console? Well I have a product for you!" Stealing costumers from MS is invaluable.
11. Better collaboration with AMD. Being in the weeds co-developing technology, seeing what works and what doesn't, is a great interim in acquiring knowledge, experience and usable data for the development of PS6.
These are all things that came to my head as I was writing. If someone really put more thought into it they could point out more.

The question of PS5 Pro existing is either yes or no. There is no interim where they might decide to make one or scrap the plans they already had. The design would be already locked, they'd had many samples back from TSMC and wafer allocation is probably already decided. In which case you'd have to say that Tom Henderson's info are straight up wrong. I do not pay attention to pretty much any leakers. I do trust Tom though, since he leaked the Earbuds, the new Elite headset and the PS Portal; all products Sony is about to release in the market. We have a video of the new ""slim"" model. When Sony announces this SKU it would be another feather in Tom's hat of Sony hardware leaks.

Edit: Watch Sony do something retarded and not put Zen4 so the GPU is heavily bottlenecked.

Fheaks say it'll be Zen 2 again but clocked a bit higher, same thing that happened with the PS4 -> Pro evolution.

 

[thismeinteil]

Missed this vid the first time around. God, Xbox really needs to improve their PR before the NeXbox launches, cause it's absolutely cringe. "Adorably digital." "I don't even miss my disc drive."

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Missed this vid the first time around. God, Xbox really needs to improve their PR before the NeXbox launches, cause it's absolutely cringe. "Adorably digital." "I don't even miss my disc drive."

I think those screens are no longer in play

 

[Tsaki]

Fheaks say it'll be Zen 2 again but clocked a bit higher, same thing that happened with the PS4 -> Pro evolution.

Yeah I'm aware, which is super disappointing. The reason given is BC with PS5 but that is SO problematic.
What will happen with PS6?
Will it not be BC with PS5 and PS4 if it wants to use Zen 6 or whatever?
Will it still have to use Zen2 in order to achieve it?
It will be 4 years since the PS5 launch when the Pro releases; why doesn't Sony have a rudimentary BC software layer where it can abstract this stuff away and use CPUs from the same core microarchitecture??
Does it mean that PS6 will have a more modern CPU but expect glitch galore on BC games?

The other thing is that it is not necessarily cheap to have Zen2 on PS5 Pro. Yes, the core architecture is "smaller" than Zen4 (though they could theoretically use the dense Zen4C core and still get all the newer instructions introduced and IPC), but it still needs porting. Zen 2 was created for TSMC 7nm (and 6nm), not for 5nm (or 4nm) so it will need its IP to be redesigned again for the new nodes. AMD hasn't done that for any of their recent Zen2 SKU releases (yes they still release Zen2-based CPUs for entry-level computing); they are still being fabbed in the original node they were made for (6nm is an optimization of 7nm). So Sony will have to foot the bill of this porting of Zen2 to 4nm.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Yeah I'm aware, which is super disappointing. The reason given is BC with PS5 but that is SO problematic.
What will happen with PS6?
Will it not be BC with PS5 and PS4 if it wants to use Zen 6 or whatever?
Will it still have to use Zen2 in order to achieve it?
It will be 4 years since the PS5 launch when the Pro releases; why doesn't Sony have a rudimentary BC software layer where it can abstract this stuff away and use CPUs from the same core microarchitecture??
Does it mean that PS6 will have a more modern CPU but expect glitch galore on BC games?

The other thing is that it is not necessarily cheap to have Zen2 on PS5 Pro. Yes, the core architecture is "smaller" than Zen4 (though they could theoretically use the dense Zen4C core and still get all the newer instructions introduced and IPC), but it still needs porting. Zen 2 was created for TSMC 7nm (and 6nm), not for 5nm (or 4nm) so it will need its IP to be redesigned again for the new nodes. AMD hasn't done that for any of their recent Zen2 SKU releases (yes they still release Zen2-based CPUs for entry-level computing); they are still being fabbed in the original node they were made for (6nm is an optimization of 7nm). So Sony will have to foot the bill of this porting of Zen2 to 4nm.

It feels like you did not witness PS4 Pro and PS5 releases. It just means that Sony wants more time to add BC enhancements and working on testing and patching BC compatibility for PS6 (which is already been developed).

Also, while it helps with BC now the Pro console is kind of an offshoot of the design work they do on the Slim due shrink with improvements of some key parts of the tech but it is not meant as a big new stepping stone.

 

[Fess]

Yep, that's what I'm thinking, Xbox360 again. Or some sort of mischievous PR where Xbox Series 'Pro' is labeled as the next generation or something. Like releasing it at the 3/4ths of the generation mark with some improved components and such, not a generational leap but a definite improvement over PS5 Pro. You know ColtEastwood and the rest of the sycophants are gonna trumpet it like they're the Archangels sounding every seal broken 'PS5 Pro is a lame midgen refresh, Xbox are selling you a new next gen system lol'

I mean that’s what Sony did when Xbox360 launched early, Xbox360 is more like Xbox 1.5, next gen doesn’t start until we say it does yadayadayada.
And it totally works for a popular brand like Playstation. Hype can carry it a long way.

It doesn’t work for Xbox.
Microsoft needs to launch their new thing early enough that Sony is caught not being able to hype up their next console without hurting sales of something they still want to sell a couple more years. I think they’ll miss that unless they launch Xbox Series 2 in 2025 at the latest. The 2026 strategy talked about will fail, it’s too late, and will likely result in MS fastforwarding the Xbox launcher strategy instead.
/nostradamus

 

[Team Andromeda]

I mean that’s what Sony did when Xbox360 launched early, Xbox360 is more like Xbox 1.5, next gen doesn’t start until we say it does yadayadayada.
And it totally works for a popular brand like Playstation. Hype can carry it a long way.

XBox didn't go early. The PS3 was meant to ship in the same year as the 360. It was only hardware issues that caused the delay for SONY.
2027 would be a better date to go, if we're not getting a Pro Xbox model

 

[Tsaki]

It feels like you did not witness PS4 Pro and PS5 releases. It just means that Sony wants more time to add BC enhancements and working on testing and patching BC compatibility for PS6 (which is already been developed).

Also, while it helps with BC now the Pro console is kind of an offshoot of the design work they do on the Slim due shrink with improvements of some key parts of the tech but it is not meant as a big new stepping stone.

When PS4 Pro released AMD had no worthy CPUs on the market, especially ones made for low power usage like a console. They do now.
They really should not be patching BC though; there should be a level of abstraction for legacy software where everything that came before just works. Testing and patching BC on PS6 tells me that there 100% will exist games that straight up don't work (same as PS4 on PS5) or have weird physics and logic glitches (Assassin's Creed, etc)
What about the second part of my post with Zen 2 on 4nm? The design does not exist. Sony and AMD will have to go out of their way to port it on the new nodes instead of using "off the shelf" Zen 4 IP, which is specifically made for 5/4nm. So they have to do extra work on the hardware side, because of their (barely passable) work on the software side (BC).

 

[Panajev2001a]

They really should not be patching BC though; there should be a level of abstraction for legacy software where everything that came before just works.

There is more and more as time goes on, but your point would work if PS5 games were programmed against this thick and frankly somewhat wasteful abstraction layer which is where performance waves bye bye. Not really the console recipe.

Or you would think about virtualising the previous console in something like a VM and well, that is kind of what they do in a next generation machine already where the HW as a whole is allowed to change drastically. It takes time for something like this to get working well.

 

[Panajev2001a]

What about the second part of my post with Zen 2 on 4nm? The design does not exist. Sony and AMD will have to go out of their way to port it on the new nodes instead of using "off the shelf" Zen 4 IP, which is specifically made for 5/4nm. So they have to do extra work on the hardware side, because of their (barely passable) work on the software side (BC).

I think this work is part of what they have done for the Slim SoC redesign, it is possible that PS5 Pro will use the same manufacturing node as PS5 Slim or maybe anything they can get with an automated design adaptation to a denser node. This is one of the reasons why reusing Zen 2 (with a decent clock speed bump as well as higher memory bandwidth solution, which Zen 2 likes a lot) makes sense for the Pro model.

CPU is not the area they want to invest the most in a Pro console, it was not the area the design needs the most impact (you can get a lot of the wins you need with a decent clock speed boost anyways, 80:20 principle). RT, sound processing, and upscaling/ML (latter being somewhat of a way to prototype ideas for PS6) are. This is where it makes sense to take ideas from RDNA3 and RDNA4. Filling an important gap in how RT is expected to use and a big way to show your premium design off.

 

[Tsaki]

There is more and more as time goes on, but your point would work if PS5 games were programmed against this thick and frankly somewhat wasteful abstraction layer which is where performance waves bye bye. Not really the console recipe.

Or you would think about virtualising the previous console in something like a VM and well, that is kind of what they do in a next generation machine already where the HW as a whole is allowed to change drastically. It takes time for something like this to get working well.

To be frank, I'd take a 5% performance hit with less "code to the metal" if it meant complete BC, with no worrying if things might break in a specific portion of a specific game.
As for VM on PS6, maybe. But that could entail no performance boosts of BC games, since you virtualize the exact PS5 hardware.

I think this work is part of what they have done for the Slim SoC redesign, it is possible that PS5 Pro will use the same manufacturing node as PS5 Slim or maybe anything they can get with an automated design adaptation to a denser node. This is one of the reasons why reusing Zen 2 (with a decent clock speed bump as well as higher memory bandwidth solution, which Zen 2 likes a lot) makes sense for the Pro model.

CPU is not the area they want to invest the most in a Pro console, it was not the area the design needs the most impact (you can get a lot of the wins you need with a decent clock speed boost anyways, 80:20 principle). RT, sound processing, and upscaling/ML (latter being somewhat of a way to prototype ideas for PS6) are. This is where it makes sense to take ideas from RDNA3 and RDNA4. Filling an important gap in how RT is expected to use and a big way to show your premium design off.

The slim is on 6nm, which Zen2 is already ported by AMD for their laptop wins since 2 years ago.
It's impossible for the Pro to be made on 6nm, not for the economies and power consumption of a console. Regardless, the leaker already said it's on 4nm.
CPU is the Central Processing Unit. If it is not fast enough, nothing else is. And it is not much investment by Sony either. Zen4 and Zen4C IP are readily available, by AMD, for 15 months now. Sony would be in on the designs for far longer than that.
Like I said, they have to go out of their way to port Zen2 to the 5nm family. And I think the primary reason is that BC does not work properly if they upgrade the architecture.

I hope they know what they are doing, but as has happened with the PS4 Pro, there were games where they had the exact same frame drops on base PS4 because the GPU of the Pro was not the issue but the CPU was.

 

[Fess]

XBox didn't go early. The PS3 was meant to ship in the same year as the 360. It was only hardware issues that caused the delay for SONY.
2027 would be a better date to go, if we're not getting a Pro Xbox model

Xbox 360 launched only 4 years after Xbox and a year ahead of PS3. I always saw it as a way to aggressively kickstart a new generation. And I think that’s exactly what’s needed now as well.

But 2027 is way too late, after another 3 years of plummeting sales figures there would be no way to turn the brand around.

With a Xbox Series ”Pro” they could possibly take a less aggressive approach but they would still struggle since Playstation is so far ahead in marketshare. Only reason to wait is if they need to wait on some new AMD or Nvidia tech. But the longer they wait the worse it’ll get, without another strategy.

No joke, I would pull the plug and start over, early 2025. Just release Hellblade 2 and Avowed, maybe Fable too, the games where gameplay is shown. Then launch a new serie of well-designed Windows Big Screen mode boxes, Steam compatible, a slick Xbox launcher available on regular desktop PCs and ROG Ally etc, Steam Deck too if possible for a curated Gamepass list at least. And mobile where the power is enough. Go wide. There is no reason to pretend the platform is isolated to one single box anymore when their games are released on Steam now and even streamable through Geforce Now.
They can still keep games from Playstation and Nintendo consoles to not upset the fanbase too much and make themselves irrelevant for those who don’t use PCs.

 

[Nonehxc]

I mean that’s what Sony did when Xbox360 launched early, Xbox360 is more like Xbox 1.5, next gen doesn’t start until we say it does yadayadayada.
And it totally works for a popular brand like Playstation. Hype can carry it a long way.

It doesn’t work for Xbox.
Microsoft needs to launch their new thing early enough that Sony is caught not being able to hype up their next console without hurting sales of something they still want to sell a couple more years. I think they’ll miss that unless they launch Xbox Series 2 in 2025 at the latest. The 2026 strategy talked about will fail, it’s too late, and will likely result in MS fastforwarding the Xbox launcher strategy instead.
/nostradamus

Hello!

Well, they need that...and much more.

They need Sony and the world to fuck up in every way imaginable like they did with PS3:

-Huge yield problems.
-Assembly and solder problems. Maybe us Europeens can got you bro Microsoft again and order some new change in solder like the unleaded soldering then but this time it's made of some sort of biodegradable Middle East child droppings bought under fair price or something...which fucked up Microsoft and Sony alike, if I remember correctly.
-Pricing
-Lacklustre documentation of every nook and cranny of a shift in architecture paradigm to make developers go nuts.
-New architecture with new instructions and yet to be discovered nuts and bolts, which required lots of research by said developers, which slowed development greatly.
-Eat the 2008 crisis when in a long economic downturn environment in Japan, then eat the other crisis in 2011, then have a huge earthquake AND a tsunami and one or two nuclear reactor meltdowns.
-Etc etc etc

And even with all that...Sony won on the finish line.

Maybe World War III is gonna be a blessing in disguise for Microsoft, and they will finally hit the jackpot.

Xbox Series Ω Fallout Edition anyone?

 

[Team Andromeda]

Xbox 360 launched only 4 years after Xbox and a year ahead of PS3. I always saw it as a way to aggressively kickstart a new generation. And I think that’s exactly what’s needed now as well.

But 2027 is way too late, after another 3 years of plummeting sales figures there would be no way to turn the brand around.

With a Xbox Series ”Pro” they could possibly take a less aggressive approach but they would still struggle since Playstation is so far ahead in marketshare. Only reason to wait is if they need to wait on some new AMD or Nvidia tech. But the longer they wait the worse it’ll get, without another strategy.

No joke, I would pull the plug and start over, early 2025. Just release Hellblade 2 and Avowed, maybe Fable too, the games where gameplay is shown. Then launch a new serie of well-designed Windows Big Screen mode boxes, Steam compatible, a slick Xbox launcher available on regular desktop PCs and ROG Ally etc, Steam Deck too if possible for a curated Gamepass list at least. And mobile where the power is enough. Go wide. There is no reason to pretend the platform is isolated to one single box anymore when their games are released on Steam now and even streamable through Geforce Now.
They can still keep games from Playstation and Nintendo consoles to not upset the fanbase too much and make themselves irrelevant for those who don’t use PCs.

That's splitting hairs. If not for a hardware delay the N64 would have gone in 1995 just 5 years after the Super Famicom and that Nintendo at their height.
The only reason the PS3 didn't come out at the same time as the 360 was over issues with Hardware and even with a year's delay. The PS3 still shipped with an underpowered CPU and a worse memory system.

Far better to go early in 2027 IMO

 

[Fess]

Hello!

Well, they need that...and much more.

They need Sony and the world to fuck up in every way imaginable like they did with PS3:

-Huge yield problems.
-Assembly and solder problems. Maybe us Europeens can got you bro Microsoft again and order some new change in solder like the unleaded soldering then but this time it's made of some sort of biodegradable Middle East child droppings bought under fair price or something...which fucked up Microsoft and Sony alike, if I remember correctly.
-Pricing
-Lacklustre documentation of every nook and cranny of a shift in architecture paradigm to make developers go nuts.
-New architecture with new instructions and yet to be discovered nuts and bolts, which required lots of research by said developers, which slowed development greatly.
-Eat the 2008 crisis when in a long economic downturn environment in Japan, then eat the other crisis in 2011, then have a huge earthquake AND a tsunami and one or two nuclear reactor meltdowns.
-Etc etc etc

And even with all that...Sony won on the finish line.

Maybe World War III is gonna be a blessing in disguise for Microsoft, and they will finally hit the jackpot.

Xbox Series Ω Fallout Edition anyone?

Looking further into the crystal ball. No WW3 needed, MS could still come out on top of Sony and Nintendo in the end since I 100% think the future is about launchers and ecosystems and not isolated boxes.

But as I said I think MS should do their own thing. Stop trying to be Sony. Just perfect a Windows box experience and focus on Gamepass instead of the traditional locked down brand-specific boxes under the TV you need to replace every 4-7 years. Why aren’t they already doing that? No idea.

But in that new era they have to compete with Valve too. Which is extremely well-positioned through their games library, market share, and also handheld. That’s the big player nobody talk much about. I’m currently using a docked Steam Deck in the living room. Feels every bit like a console. It’s essentially a Steam Switch, with less walls. It’s awesome.

And a serious question. What is actually needed for Valve to completely steamroll (no pun intended) the console space?
A well-designed Steam box with the same care and quality as Steam Deck plus wider marketing. That’s it. I would pack down my regular consoles at once if they did that.

 

[thismeinteil]

I mean that’s what Sony did when Xbox360 launched early, Xbox360 is more like Xbox 1.5, next gen doesn’t start until we say it does yadayadayada.
And it totally works for a popular brand like Playstation. Hype can carry it a long way.

It doesn’t work for Xbox.
Microsoft needs to launch their new thing early enough that Sony is caught not being able to hype up their next console without hurting sales of something they still want to sell a couple more years. I think they’ll miss that unless they launch Xbox Series 2 in 2025 at the latest. The 2026 strategy talked about will fail, it’s too late, and will likely result in MS fastforwarding the Xbox launcher strategy instead.
/nostradamus

Regardless of what MS does HW-wise, it will fail. They haven't addressed their biggest issue, management and game output. If they launch early, they HAVE to support the Series S, which makes up their largest customer base this gen, so it will continue to be an anchor around their neck. Or, they can choose to dump this gen, which will piss off a lot of the supporters they still have, and they'll have less interest in their new HW.

You see, launching early did jack squat for 360. Same goes for Dreamcast. After an entire year of being the only next gen system on the market, it sold just 6M. Even the $200 more expensive PS3 did 7M it's first year. It only became a viable option once the PS3 launched and stumbled out of the gate with a weak launch window lineup and weaker 3rd party performance. Launching early this time isn't going to mean anything when Sony isn't going to be making the same mistakes, and will 100% have the more powerful system with their PS6, since it will be launching ~2 years later and come with all the advancements in tech that will bring.

Speaking of power, how much more powerful do you think the NeXbox can even be launching just one year after the Pro, which means it'll be mostly using 2024 tech? Since Sony is focusing on GPU advancements, I'd imagine the biggest difference would be the CPU. Even if they can do twice the Tflops of Pro, which this gen taught us doesn't mean as much with a 10Tflops machine going toe to toe with a 12Tflops one, what are we looking at? Maybe a 30Tflops machine? How's that going to play out when Sony announces the 50-60Tflops PS6 just a few months after the NeXbox arrives?

And I'm sure Sony won't announce the PS6 before 2026, but really all they have to do to compete against the NeXbox is drop the PS5/Pro by $100 and they're golden.

 

[MisterXDTV]

Far better to go early in 2027 IMO

Far better to achieve what?

They have two consoles on the market NOW, nobody cares about them...

People won't throw away their digital libraries just because they launch ANOTHER system earlier....

They will keep PS5 (Pro) and wait for PS6...

 

[splattered]

Regardless of what MS does HW-wise, it will fail. They haven't addressed their biggest issue, management and game output. If they launch early, they HAVE to support the Series S, which makes up their largest customer base this gen, so it will continue to be an anchor around their neck. Or, they can choose to dump this gen, which will piss off a lot of the supporters they still have, and they'll have less interest in their new HW.

You see, launching early did jack squat for 360. Same goes for Dreamcast. After an entire year of being the only next gen system on the market, it sold just 6M. Even the $200 more expensive PS3 did 7M it's first year. It only became a viable option once the PS3 launched and stumbled out of the gate with a weak launch window lineup and weaker 3rd party performance. Launching early this time isn't going to mean anything when Sony isn't going to be making the same mistakes, and will 100% have the more powerful system with their PS6, since it will be launching ~2 years later and come with all the advancements in tech that will bring.

Speaking of power, how much more powerful do you think the NeXbox can even be launching just one year after the Pro, which means it'll be mostly using 2024 tech? Since Sony is focusing on GPU advancements, I'd imagine the biggest difference would be the CPU. Even if they can do twice the Tflops of Pro, which this gen taught us doesn't mean as much with a 10Tflops machine going toe to toe with a 12Tflops one, what are we looking at? Maybe a 30Tflops machine? How's that going to play out when Sony announces the 50-60Tflops PS6 just a few months after the NeXbox arrives?

And I'm sure Sony won't announce the PS6 before 2026, but really all they have to do to compete against the NeXbox is drop the PS5/Pro by $100 and they're golden.

It's a $300 console that has been fine for most people. If I had bought one on the cheap but then have to drop it to go to a high end next Gen system so be it. Yeah it will make some people mad but if next Gen offering looks good and it plays all the games that were bought for the series S but better then a lot of people will just get over it.

 

[Fess]

Far better to go early in 2027 IMO

Why? You need to explain that because I just see a 3 year long dwindling spiral downwards with that strategy.

 

[thismeinteil]

It's a $300 console that has been fine for most people. If I had bought one on the cheap but then have to drop it to go to a high end next Gen system so be it. Yeah it will make some people mad but if next Gen offering looks good and it plays all the games that were bought for the series S but better then a lot of people will just get over it.

As a very loyal Xbox gamer, you may get over it. However, there are a lot of owners who will not. It's part of the reason 360 had such a slow start, even with people knowing the price of the PS3 was going to be $200 more, brand confidence and interest. Because they chose to just abandon the OG Xbox, confidence and interest were low.

And right now, when confidence and interest in their brand is now back to those levels, again, it's not a time they should just be abandoning them and moving on to the next gen.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Why? You need to explain that because I just see a 3 year long dwindling spiral downwards with that strategy.

Because SONY will go in 2028 and so MS wouldn't be so outgunned if they really want to go early. Plus given the 4 year development cycle for most games these days, it will give the teams more time to get BIG games ready early in before the PS6 fires

 

[Fess]

As a very loyal Xbox gamer, you may get over it. However, there are a lot of owners who will not. It's part of the reason 360 had such a slow start, even with people knowing the price of the PS3 was going to be $200 more, brand confidence and interest. Because they chose to just abandon the OG Xbox, confidence and interest were low.

And right now, when confidence and interest in their brand is now back to those levels, again, it's not a time they should just be abandoning them and moving on to the next gen.

I read that 75% of the Xbox users have a Series S. This tells me the market already treat it like it’s at the end of the generation when a lower price is what is pulling in more people. And if we had official sales numbers we would likely see a typical end gen graph where sales are vastly slowing down. I’ll be extremely surprised if there is an upwards peak coming in hw sales, especially if Sony is releasing PS5 Pro this year and MS have nothing, it’ll be a slaughter.

 

[thismeinteil]

I read that 75% of the Xbox users have a Series S. This tells me the market already treat it like it’s at the end of the generation when a lower price is what is pulling in more people. And if we had official sales numbers we would likely see a typical end gen graph where sales are vastly slowing down. I’ll be extremely surprised if there is an upwards peak coming in hw sales, especially if Sony is releasing PS5 Pro this year and MS have nothing, it’ll be a slaughter.

Sales aren't slowing down because people are acting like it's the end of the gen. They're slowing down because people have lost interest in Xbox, period. The third year of a console should be its peak, however, it looks like year 2 was the peak for Series. That's not good. And just abandoning those people who did choose to support you, just cause you're losing, isn't going to help matters.

 

[Fess]

Because SONY will go in 2028 and so MS wouldn't be so outgunned if they really want to go early. Plus given the 4 year development cycle for most games these days, it will give the teams more time to get BIG games ready early in before the PS6 fires

The majority of their studios are working on games that should arrive in 1-4 years going by how long since their last release. Releasing those games on Series X would mean we won’t see much or anything at all from them on the next console, everything would drop on a more or less dying platform, then nothing until late gen.

If they go next gen faster it would mean they could have the already worked on titles as launch titles, an impressive new Gears at or near launch, imagine that, and within a year or two a new DOOM, Indiana Jones, Forza Horizon 6, Wolfenstein, maybe the mysterious Everwild, Mara, State of Decay 3, Perfect Dark, Psychonauts 3, The Outer World 2, etc. Plus definitive editions of Starfield and Fable and Hellblade 2.
Also, it would erase the awkward scenario of being forced to have the best version of 1st party Call of Duty on a competitors platform because your own console is weaker.

 

[Fess]

Sales aren't slowing down because people are acting like it's the end of the gen. They're slowing down because people have lost interest in Xbox, period. The third year of a console should be its peak, however, it looks like year 2 was the peak for Series. That's not good. And just abandoning those people who did choose to support you, just cause you're losing, isn't going to help matters.

And you think the interest will increase if they do nothing?
They wouldn’t abandon a big userbase of supporting core gamers. They would prepare a big group of people who buy a new console when it’s cheaper that it’s time to start saving up soon. And the 25% or whatever supporting core gamers would be excited for a new gen Xbox guaranteed.

 

[thismeinteil]

And you think the interest will increase if they do nothing?
They wouldn’t abandon a big userbase of supporting core gamers. They would prepare a big group of people who buy a new console when it’s cheaper that it’s time to start saving up soon. And the 25% or whatever supporting core gamers would be excited for a new gen Xbox guaranteed.

They'll increase interest if they address their management and games output problems. But, even that will take years of consecutive good output to recover. The point is, HW has never been their problem.

As I said, just dropping this gen will do nothing but lower the confidence and interest in their brand even more. Why buy into a system when, if it underperforms, again, MS has a track record of just abandoning your system. Or there's a possibility that MS would just bow out of the HW market altogether, since this would be the 3rd time in a row.

 

[Fess]

They'll increase interest if they address their management and games output problems. But, even that will take years of consecutive good output to recover. The point is, HW has never been their problem.

As I said, just dropping this gen will do nothing but lower the confidence and interest in their brand even more. Why buy into a system when, if it underperforms, again, MS has a track record of just abandoning your system. Or there's a possibility that MS would just bow out of the HW market altogether, since this would be the 3rd time in a row.

Hardwarewise this gen is already over for MS, that’s why a drastic move is needed. With impressive launch games and impressive hardware comes hype and with hype comes opened wallets. Some disgruntled customers are worth it if a new hype cycle can be kickstarted through a new generation. And I don’t see that happen with Series S/X.
With new hardware there is also the possibility to do something cool and unexpected. Right now they’re stuck in a really bad place with no realistic turn-around in sight.

 

[cireza]

With new hardware there is also the possibility to do something cool and unexpected.

We have yet to see something cool and unexpected on current gen consoles. More hardware is utterly pointless. Start using current gen correctly FFS.

 

[Mahavastu]

Speaking of power, how much more powerful do you think the NeXbox can even be launching just one year after the Pro, which means it'll be mostly using 2024 tech? Since Sony is focusing on GPU advancements, I'd imagine the biggest difference would be the CPU. Even if they can do twice the Tflops of Pro, which this gen taught us doesn't mean as much with a 10Tflops machine going toe to toe with a 12Tflops one, what are we looking at? Maybe a 30Tflops machine? How's that going to play out when Sony announces the 50-60Tflops PS6 just a few months after the NeXbox arrives?

Just think about what you would do if you are Microsoft and you want the fastest console and really make a last try in console space no matter the cost (not likely).

As we know, so far Sony and MS are quite conservative about which TSMC node they are using. They are using a node which at launch is about 2 years old, is mature and has a pretty good yield, keeping the costs low.

If MS wants to really make a splash and does not look for the money, they might bribe TSMC and get (like Apple) access to the latest and greatest node. This would be way more expensive because of bad yields, but maybe with things like chiplets this problem might not as big.
It would allow them to start 2 years earlier but with about the same node Sony will use like 2 years later, leveling the battlefield a bit. So the next gen XBox would have arround the same transistor density/budget as the PS6

The biggest jump would probably be the cpu, which is the latest and greatest Zen they can get. And with the small node they might even add much larger caches then Sony has.
The GPU would not be RDNA3.5, but rather RDNA4.5, probably much better ray tracing and as I said, much larger caches. The CUs wont be that much different, but because of the smaller node you can add much more of them and run them with higher clock speed.
Some of the newer AMD GPUs came with a huge infinty cache. Maybe by the time of XBox Nextgen it might be possible to add a much larger cache too, maybe using chiplets?
For the RAM they might use something like GDDRW or GDDRX to double the bandwith to the RAM, also getting a nice overall speed up.

Anyway, using the latest and greatest TSMC has to offer is probably way to expensive, so I doubt the scenario above will become reality. And even if they pull it off, would it really make a difference in sales?