You have to go REALLY low end to get to cards without GDDR5. DDR3 bottlenecks even integrated GPUs and the Nvidia 640 is really awful compared to similarly priced AMD cards because it has DDR3 and it is nowhere near mid range performance (7850).
DF: Orbis vs Durango Spec Analysis
- Thread starter iamshadowlark
- Start date
You have to go REALLY low end to get to cards without GDDR5. DDR3 bottlenecks even integrated GPUs and the Nvidia 640 is really awful compared to similarly priced AMD cards because it has DDR3 and it is nowhere near mid range performance (7850).
When the "source material" is a computer generated image processed at exactly that specific resolution, I don't see how anything else can be the "most important facet": No other assets can be displayed at a high fidelity when the rendering resolution is low to begin with.
Sakura
Member
Well I mean the GTX 295 says it does 1.78TF and it's only got GDDR3. I wasn't imagining the GDDR5 would not be better, but that at some point the midrange card would be a bottleneck, unable to fully utilise the RAM's speed. Kind of like a car that can do 200mph but it is restricted to driving on streets where the speed limit is 100. Still better than a 60mph car obviously, but the difference not being as large in practical use as on paper. But I guess it doesn't work like that, and even a midrange card can make full use of the GDDR5's speed.
dynamitejim
Member
Display resolution isn't the same as rendering resolution. Pixar movies look good at 720p because they were originally rendered at a much higher resolution. A Pixar movie made at 720p native would look pretty blurry. The only way to get rid of aliasing in 3D rendering is more samples, and samples basically = pixels. Even MSAA is a form of higher resolution rendering.
les papillons sexuels
Banned
kinda, i think the ps4 is going to be bottle-necked by latency.
Lovely Salsa
Banned
I don't think even DF is too sure of that...
The average resolution of games should be the same throughout the console lifespan. Like this gen there were a bunch of sub HD games at each launch and continued to be later.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Good to know. Thanks.
i-Lo said:
I'll wager that all first party games from MS/Sony will be 1080P native for at least the first 2 years or even all generation.
nelsonroyale
Member
Why would you think that?
That GDDR3 in the GTX 295 did 3X the rumored bandwidth of the DDR3 in Durango. And more than the GDDR5 in Orbis could ever hope to, if Sony sticks with a 256-bit bus.
Durango isn't using GDDR3, if that wasn't clear.
30fps needs to go away and never come back. It's 2013. It's time for 60 to become the new standard.
Any 720P game that is released should be 60FPS always. No exceptions. Use SMAA if you need AA as it has no blurring like FXAA and it's performance hit is a little heavier than FXAA.
SMAA was used in Killzone 3.
Any concession for 30 would be outputting @ 1080P and even then I think I would be fine with some possible reduction somewhere else to make sure 60 is hit.
putting 30 and 60 side by side and the difference is night and day.
Any 720P game that is released should be 60FPS always. No exceptions. Use SMAA if you need AA as it has no blurring like FXAA and it's performance hit is a little heavier than FXAA.
SMAA was used in Killzone 3.
Any concession for 30 would be outputting @ 1080P and even then I think I would be fine with some possible reduction somewhere else to make sure 60 is hit.
putting 30 and 60 side by side and the difference is night and day.
MLAA actually.
DeuceGamer
Member
Ive read the article but I'm guessing we wont know definitively which ons is more powerful until launch, or after. I can't wait to see the games. I'm cautiously optimistic in the power leap but we definitely need new hardware.
SMAA actually
http://www.iryoku.com/smaa/
scroll down
"September 6, 2011: version 2.4 released, featuring predicated thresholding (Killzone 3 edge detection method)."
Edit: It seems SMAA is a more advanced version of MLAA.
1st Course
Member
AMD flops =/= Nvidia flops.
Why do you "fear" the possibility of one console being better than the other?
Last generation was terribly drab, consoles should never be so similar that they're referred to as "twins."
James Sawyer Ford
Banned
This article has basically confirmed the suspicions that some of the more rational posters had all along - namely, that special sauce is fairly insignificant and the major components (GPU/CPU) are directly comparable. Special sauce differences are largely the result of Microsoft's attempt to patch up large bandwidth deficiencies, which aren't a problem on Sony's system.
It was a little frustrating hearing from insiders like aegis and proelite constantly saying that the gap would be magically made up by these unknown components without delving into specifics.
The gap this coming gen will be larger than the 360/PS3 gap, and instead of arguing over a few more missed frames on one version, or slightly better textures on another, we could definitely see a much larger gap in effects/framerate/resolution/AA, etc.
It was a little frustrating hearing from insiders like aegis and proelite constantly saying that the gap would be magically made up by these unknown components without delving into specifics.
The gap this coming gen will be larger than the 360/PS3 gap, and instead of arguing over a few more missed frames on one version, or slightly better textures on another, we could definitely see a much larger gap in effects/framerate/resolution/AA, etc.
I think final specs for Orbis and Durango will surprise you.
There is no special sauce. Just up to date specs.
James Sawyer Ford
Banned
Which specs are out of date?
There were a few insiders here saying that the specs haven't changed, though.
And indeed, the article that EG just posted said that specs are unlikely to shift.
BruiserBear
Banned
I'm not sure why you bothered reading it if you were going to come to your own conclusions anyway.
So what's different? Is Durango on par with Orbis?
Terbinator
Member
On par? Durango is miles ahead once the Wizard Jizz is coded for.
BruiserBear
Banned
Digital Foundry seems pretty damn sure, and they're about as trustworthy as it gets. Not sure why you'd be so sure they don't know what they're talking about.
One of these people are lying, or hiding something, or spot on.
We'll find out soon enough.
Don't be quick to give a power victory to either side before getting all the final details.
I'm gonna be really blunt here: people are being banned for less. If you know something, spit it out or shut up.
Didn't SuperDAE and MTW continually post that we're going to get updated specs soon on Durango?
From Kotaku nonetheless.
That's all I've been going by.
He really has nothing to gain for being a liar on Twitter. He'll just get trolled harder.
And then there's this post from Beyond 3D
http://beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1704614&postcount=1872
Shifty GeezerB3D said:
James Sawyer Ford
Banned
SuperDAE hasn't proven to be the most trustworthy of sources.
Whereas we have multiple sources confirming that the main system components are locked in.
There's very little either company can do at this point other than to adjust clocking frequency or memory tweaks, but even that is unlikely to change due to yields/power consumption.
GPU/CPU have to be pretty much well established for a long time in order to provide thorough testing and satisfactory yields for what will be a large Q4 launch.
Eurogamer pointed this out as well, and I have very little reason to doubt their logic simply because SuperDAE posted something vague on twitter.
BruiserBear
Banned
So you trust SuperDAE more than Richard Ledbetter, who makes a living covering these topics and talking to people who know this shit?
That guy claims he's not emotionally invested, but then goes on a rant that sounds like someone who is emotionally invested.
If he is lying, he's just setting himself for constant trolling on his account. Especially for calling out NeoGAF members.
He's a "wildcard". Maybe he's right, maybe he's wrong. Let's see if he's full of crap or not. Wouldn't hurt. It's all speculation until official specs are revealed anyway.
If Richard knows something particularly sensitive about Orbis & Durango, He won't discuss it. NDA and all. The latest article is merely pointing out information already talked about on B3D.
The information in this article is covered by NDA, leaks don't care about that. If he knows something (and is reasonably sure of it's credibility) it should be reported.
That's lovely, but the realty is people are playing games on PC with near perfect image quality without issue. I'm not sure how you can be such a big proponent of IQ and then pretend the PC doesn't exist lol. I'm about to play Sleeping Dogs at 2560x1440 with 4xAA on my TV. The "purpose" of a PC as you put doesn't change that little fact.
I'm pretty sure he's also seen some next gen games that he's under NDA too.
Should he reveal it too?
The trick is to wait till someone else breaks NDA first.
BruiserBear
Banned
Richard stated quite clearly (more than once in this newest article) that he's nearly certain these specs won't change. Again, he does this for a living. He's not some dude on a twitter account, or some random ass guy on a message board. He's a guy who pays his bills based on his credibility.
Digital Foundry said:
Digital Foundry said:
At no point did I ever say I was an insider. I'm speculating in a speculation thread.
I hope Leadbetter is right. I just want some finality. At least we'll get some for Orbis on the 20th.
BradleyLove
Member
It's an easily provable premise. Take a PC game and set it to 1080p with no AA and no AF. Take the same PC game, set it to 720p, crank the AA to 8x MSAA, 16x AF and scale to 1080p.
Anyone with a decent PC and photoshop could prove this right now. 1080p with zero IQ enhancements versus 720p with IQ enhancements up the wazoo, scaled to 1080p.
Again, resolution isn't the sole ingredient for IQ; it's easily provable. It's funny how whenever Pixar is mentioned folks concentrate on everything but the point being discussed: resolution.
A mod just threatened to ban you. I'd choose your exact wording more carefully next time.
James Sawyer Ford
Banned
Well somebody is lying. Either aegis or Richard are lying (saying Durango specs won't change), or SuperDAE is lying.
And Richard is not bound by an NDA. He was the one who posted the original expose on the Orbis (even before VGLeaks) back in January.
All of these details he is discussing are clearly details that are under NDA for certain people that are working on projects related to next-gen development.
Again, he hasn't signed any NDA, so he can speak freely about what he knows.
I'm not an insider. I don't know anything. I'm speculating.
Is that easy enough for you to understand?
I agree with this. If this is completely legit I'll be happy. It's just odd we have people with conflicting sources as you described saying something different.
He almost certainly hasn't signed an NDA regarding next gen console specs. If he signed a NDA for something else he should of course be professional and not leak.
Any next gen games he's seen wouldn't be running on consoles anyway, theres little chance theres been a secret next gen console unveiling to the press.
That is true. But when you get a hold of sensitive info it can change the way you post. Right now BruceLeeRoy is sitting on a goldmine of NDA info, and he can't say nothing until the 20th:/
James Sawyer Ford
Banned
Agreed, it's odd. But at the same time, someone like Richard Ledbetter holds a lot more credibility in my view than some twitter personality that has shown a lack of consistency in the past.
RECALL - Eurogamer actually had the Vita's specs DEAD NUTS ON back in 2009! That's how long these systems take to develop and release. Core specs are set in stone nearly a year in advance, or longer.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-psp2-features-quad-core-gpu-blog-entry
They have a LOT of credibility in my view, and wouldn't post articles that could have blatantly wrong info to a large degree.
SuperDAE may even be right - the final specs may be SLIGHTLY different in certain areas (for BOTH consoles), but ultimately it won't be any major changes (which Richard argued).
SuperDAE sort of suggested that up to date specs would bridge the performance gap, and I find that highly unlikely at this stage.
Really? Has he made any recent posts suggesting he knows a lot?
It's surprising to see that the spec difference between the two consoles is seemingly bigger next-gen then what it was last gen (and that with the PS3 releasing a year later!). Sony are taking all the correct steps when it comes to hardware and dev environment concerning the Vita and PS4.
Yeah. His source says we're going to be in for some nice surprises on the 20th. Check his post history.
In the end I still see Orbis coming on top power wise. The only question is it significantly or slightly.
I think it boils down to this : If the february reported specs are dev kit specs, then there would be room for considerable improvement; if they were pitched as target specs, however (which is more probable, imo), then what you heard is what you will get.
Durango is quite powerful, and its architecture makes a lot of sense. None of its components seems out of place, imo. People that advocate changing the GPU or beefing up the CPU look at the trees instead of the whole forrest.
Either one of them will have a slight advantage, unless law of physics can be broken...
Durango is quite powerful, and its architecture makes a lot of sense. None of its components seems out of place, imo. People that advocate changing the GPU or beefing up the CPU look at the trees instead of the whole forrest.
Either one of them will have a slight advantage, unless law of physics can be broken...