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[Pixel Pete]

Cool beans!

Latency no longer a Factor in Diablo 3 Combat?

"According to a few sources playing the F&F Beta, it seems that Blizzard may have found a way to completely remove the delay of character combat actions resulting from network latency.

F&F sources have it that Blizzard are using a new method of client/server communication that provides a secure and tamper-proof method of using the local client to handle its own calculations, while sending the data to the server for verification."

 

[red731]

Sweet! Bring on the PvP!

...and I red it as super sources...

 

[squidyj]

Cool beans!

Latency no longer a Factor in Diablo 3 Combat?

"According to a few sources playing the F&F Beta, it seems that Blizzard may have found a way to completely remove the delay of character combat actions resulting from network latency.

F&F sources have it that Blizzard are using a new method of client/server communication that provides a secure and tamper-proof method of using the local client to handle its own calculations, while sending the data to the server for verification."

Secure and tamper-proof? I will believe it when I see it.

 

[Pixel Pete]

Secure and tamper-proof? I will believe it when I see it.

 

[squidyj]

Sweet! Bring on the PvP!

...and I red it as super sources...

I'm not sure it would be a good idea for PvP as it would either give laggers a huge upper hand (they already have the upper hand) or by having a lot of double kills going on where you both kill each-other because the spell you cast went ahead before your game found out your enemy had already killed you, or some such.

 

[lordy88]

I'll be 100% honest here. I am incredibly hyped about Diablo III and have been for a long, long time. But I don't think I've ever been as hyped as I have right now after making my Nuke build for DH:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#jPiReS!gVW!YcccYZ

Skills

Cluster Arrow [Shooting Stars] = Fire 9 rockets @ 220% Weapon Damage
Strafe [Rocket Storm] = In addition to normal shots, fires homing rockets @ 120% Weapon Damage
Multishot [Arsenal] = Also fires 10 rockets @ 150% Weapon Damage each
Sentry [Spitfire Turret] = Also fires a homing rocket every 1.5 seconds @ 240% Weapon Damage
Marked For Death [Contagion] = Once target is killed it spreads to 8 other enemies
Shadow Warrior [Night Bane] = Restore 7 Hatred/second while in use

Passives

Ballistics = Doubles my Rocket damage
Custom Engineering = Doubles both Sentry and Marked For Death damage
Archery = More Damage/Crit

Concept

The idea of me running around, blasting the shit out of everything with rockets sounds like PURE GOLD. I'd start with MFD and Sentry, and then mix up Multishot and Cluster Arrow, using MS for the front of packs, and Cluster to get the ranged gents. Then I'd throw in a strafe whilst on the move and follow it up with Shadow Warrior after to get to the next battle and get my Hatred back in order. Ballistics and Custom Engineering are self-explanatory, and I went with Archery ofr #3 after long consideration. I would also consider Grenadier, Sharpshooter, Vengeance or Fundamentals for the final spot, depending on much Hatred Regeneration I need or if I'm feeling I want a boost for either my crits or Cluster Arrow damage.

I am so amped for this build you have no idea. Monsters in your way? Fuck it, let's nuke 'em!

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

What does it mean? :O

 

[lordy88]

What does it mean? :O

The last one is most likely an "un-attuned" rune. As it was described previously, runes will not take form until you physically place them into a skill. It's kind of like Identifying an item through socketing. There's also rumor that runes might additionally carry some prefixes and/or suffixes as well, just to keep the item hunt more interesting.

Keep in mind though, in order to de-socket a rune, you have to pay your Mystic some cash. So if you don't like the select rune for the skill, you're going to have to spend some money. It's another way of adding a gold sink.

This is all up the air still, however. We'll see what happens on gameday.

 

[squidyj]

I'll be 100% honest here. I am incredibly hyped about Diablo III and have been for a long, long time. But I don't think I've ever been as hyped as I have right now after making my Nuke build for DH:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#jPiReS!gVW!YcccYZ

Skills

Cluster Arrow [Shooting Stars] = Fire 9 rockets @ 220% Weapon Damage
Strafe [Rocket Storm] = In addition to normal shots, fires homing rockets @ 120% Weapon Damage
Multishot [Arsenal] = Also fires 10 rockets @ 150% Weapon Damage each
Sentry [Spitfire Turret] = Also fires a homing rocket every 1.5 seconds @ 240% Weapon Damage
Marked For Death [Contagion] = Once target is killed it spreads to 8 other enemies
Shadow Warrior [Night Bane] = Restore 7 Hatred/second while in use

Passives

Ballistics = Doubles my Rocket damage
Custom Engineering = Makes my Sentry last longer
Archery = More Damage/Crit

Concept

The idea of me running around, blasting the shit out of everything with rockets sounds like PURE GOLD. I'd start with MFD and Sentry, and then mix up Multishot and Cluster Arrow, using MS for the front of packs, and Cluster to get the ranged gents. Then I'd throw in a strafe whilst on the move and follow it up with Shadow Warrior after to get to the next battle and get my Hatred back in order. Ballistics and Custom Engineering are self-explanatory, and I went with Archery ofr #3 after long consideration. I would also consider Grenadier, Sharpshooter, Vengeance or Fundamentals for the final spot, depending on much Hatred Regeneration I need or if I'm feeling I want a boost for either my crits or Cluster Arrow damage.

I am so amped for this build you have no idea. Monsters in your way? Fuck it, let's nuke 'em!

I have a similar build but with a few variants, check it out and tell me what you think.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#jPTRek!gVf!YcbcYa


Also, I move that builds focused on maxing rocket damage be called 'Rocket Launchers' from here on.

 

[lordy88]

I have a similar build but with a few variants, check it out and tell me what you think.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#jPTRek!gVf!YcbcYa


Also, I move that builds focused on maxing rocket damage be called 'Rocket Launchers' from here on.

Just my 2 cents here, we haven't even played it yet!

I considered Bat Companion as well, but I came to the conclusion that Shadow Warrior would be best given that most of the Hatred Regen would be needed in the thick of things. This makes me go for the 70 hatred in 10 seconds than a slower, consistent regen with Bat Companion. Not to mention the 55% increase in attack speed is pretty awesome and would certainly be a bigger advantage than 20 damage every so often.

I can't say I agree with Preparation either, given that you won't be using all too much Discipline. I think you'd benefit a lot more adding either Shadow Warrior or Multishot to spice things up (And hey, this is a Rocket Launcher after all!).

I can certainly understand Grenadier, I'll have to test it out myself when it arrives.

 

[koji]

Exactly, both leagues are completely separated.

Hold on, so I won't be able to coop with my mates if they don't play hardcore and I do?

I have no idea how the mp/coop will work.

 

[lordy88]

Hold on, so I won't be able to coop with my mates if they don't play hardcore and I do?

I have no idea how the mp/coop will work.

Yeah, the Hardcore league will be completely separate from the non-hardcore. It's to make it a lot more difficult for Hardcore players to get incredible loot to maintain their elite status. Same reason why there won't be an RMAH for hardcore (they could just buy amazing items to make it through!). Makes a lot of sense when you think about it.

 

[squidyj]

Just my 2 cents here, we haven't even played it yet!

I considered Bat Companion as well, but I came to the conclusion that Shadow Warrior would be best given that most of the Hatred Regen would be needed in the thick of things. This makes me go for the 70 hatred in 10 seconds than a slower, consistent regen with Bat Companion. Not to mention the 55% increase in attack speed is pretty awesome and would certainly be a bigger advantage than 20 damage every so often.

I can't say I agree with Preparation either, given that you won't be using all too much Discipline. I think you'd benefit a lot more adding either Shadow Warrior or Multishot to spice things up (And hey, this is a Rocket Launcher after all!).

I can certainly understand Grenadier, I'll have to test it out myself when it arrives.

Are we limited to one turret at a time? It doesn't say that we are but I could understand if we were. I think that's what turns the tables on whether or not preparation is worthwhile in this build. I just like the passive aspect of the Companion where I don't have to spend discipline to generate that hatred all the time, I spend it once until my pet dies and then I'm good.

As far as dropping Multi-shot, on paper I'm having a hard time seeing where I could use multi-shot that I wouldn't be better off using cluster arrow, particularly with the Grenadier passive

 

[FieryBalrog]

Pre-fixes and suffixes for runes? Fuck me.

 

[koji]

Yeah, the Hardcore league will be completely separate from the non-hardcore. It's to make it a lot more difficult for Hardcore players to get incredible loot to maintain their elite status. Same reason why there won't be an RMAH for hardcore (they could just buy amazing items to make it through!). Makes a lot of sense when you think about it.

Makes sense indeed, something I have to think about, don't think my mates will play HC. :-/

Thanks for the info!

 

[rakhir]

I tried to fiddle with the calculator, but i just can't do it.

Right now it's so completely detached from the game, we only vaguely know how the spells work in-game, how they'll play within the encounters. The sheer amount of abilities don't help - you have basic spells, but with all the gems there are hundreds of possibilities.
I've tried the barbarian, figured i've know something about him from D2, but not quite - even he is so different that's hard to imagine how he'll play in D3.

I envy you guys for the ability to do a whole build with only the text and raw numbers .

 

[FieryBalrog]

I tried to fiddle with the calculator, but i just can't do it.

Right now it's so completely detached from the game, we only vaguely know how the spells work in-game, how they'll play within the encounters. The sheer amount of abilities don't help - you have basic spells, but with all the gems there are hundreds of possibilities.
I've tried the barbarian, figured i've know something about him from D2, but not quite - even he is so different that's hard to imagine how he'll play in D3.

I envy you guys for the ability to do a whole build with only the text and raw numbers .

You're not the only one. It's too overwhelming. The skills all look ridiculous and mega-powerful to me in a vacuum.

 

[forrest]

Just my 2 cents here, we haven't even played it yet!

I considered Bat Companion as well, but I came to the conclusion that Shadow Warrior would be best given that most of the Hatred Regen would be needed in the thick of things. This makes me go for the 70 hatred in 10 seconds than a slower, consistent regen with Bat Companion. Not to mention the 55% increase in attack speed is pretty awesome and would certainly be a bigger advantage than 20 damage every so often.

I can't say I agree with Preparation either, given that you won't be using all too much Discipline. I think you'd benefit a lot more adding either Shadow Warrior or Multishot to spice things up (And hey, this is a Rocket Launcher after all!).

I can certainly understand Grenadier, I'll have to test it out myself when it arrives.

Don't forget you can load Preparation with a Crimson rune to get...

Punishment - Removes cooldown. Skill now costs 19 Discipline to cast but restores all Hatred instead of all Discipline.

Depending on you Discipline pool, I'd imagine this ability would let you unleash a world of pain. I posted a Rocket/Grenade build a couple pages back and had preparation/punishment in there for spamming rocket madness. I do like your idea for the turret and marked for death, but the engineering passive increases duration, not damage.

Here you go, I really like this Rocket/Grenade build. I just can't pry vault out of the build. I like the idea of a lot of mobility, not to mention it's useable out of combat when just running around.

 

[MrKnives]

Funny how people are gong crazy over builds and playing them and making guides and shit when we haven't even touched the game. Same thing was with Starcraft 2.

Blizzard sure knows how to make hyped games.

 

[FoxSpirit]

Wow, just took a look. That skillpool for each class is insane!!

 

[MrKnives]

Every build I have seen for DH has been

 

[Trickster]

I tried to fiddle with the calculator, but i just can't do it.

Right now it's so completely detached from the game, we only vaguely know how the spells work in-game, how they'll play within the encounters. The sheer amount of abilities don't help - you have basic spells, but with all the gems there are hundreds of possibilities.
I've tried the barbarian, figured i've know something about him from D2, but not quite - even he is so different that's hard to imagine how he'll play in D3.

I envy you guys for the ability to do a whole build with only the text and raw numbers .

Exactly my thoughts as well. I can look at the skills and runestones, but without experience and context, it makes no sense for me to fiddle with all these skills and runestones yet.

 

[Raide]

Funny how people are gong crazy over builds and playing them and making guides and shit when we haven't even touched the game. Same thing was with Starcraft 2.

Blizzard sure knows how to make hyped games.

Its what happens with WoW if they announce class changes. Forums fill with speculative Talent Specs for people to droll/argue over.

 

[Jira]

Cool beans!

Latency no longer a Factor in Diablo 3 Combat?

"According to a few sources playing the F&F Beta, it seems that Blizzard may have found a way to completely remove the delay of character combat actions resulting from network latency.

F&F sources have it that Blizzard are using a new method of client/server communication that provides a secure and tamper-proof method of using the local client to handle its own calculations, while sending the data to the server for verification."

wat

Isn't this literally impossible to do? Even on LAN you have a 1-5ms ping.

 

[rakhir]

Its what happens with WoW if they announce class changes. Forums fill with speculative Talent Specs for people to droll/argue over.

It's different though - we already played WoW, know all the abilities. We know how increasing cooldown on a shield block will change the tanking on a warrior, since we've been hitting that button for years now.
I don't know what exactly happens with diablo 3 abilities beyond what's in this calculator.

 

[Number45]

wat

Isn't this literally impossible to do? Even on LAN you have a 1-5ms ping.

Basically says that the game doesn't wait for a response so it's as if playing offline - if any shenanigans are discovered then it will disconnect.

The Client doesn’t require the server to respond, hence removing Latency from the equation. The exact technical information of how this works is unknown, particularly how it protects the game from tampering with the client, however it is believed that the server checks all the data that comes from the client, and if it detects tampering it disconnects the client. This eliminates the need for the client to have to wait for a response from the server, and runs as business as usual unless the server doesn’t like what the client has sent it.

 

[Raide]

It's different though - we already played WoW, know all the abilities and know how, i don't know, increasing cooldown on a shield block will change the tanking on a warrior, since i've been hitting that button for years now.
I don't know what exactly happens with these abilities beyond the info in this calculator.

It will be great to finally play the game and figure out what all this stuff is.

 

[red731]

Exactly my thoughts as well. I can look at the skills and runestones, but without experience and context, it makes no sense for me to fiddle with all these skills and runestones yet.

I agree with you both. I must play the game first and then will decide what path will I take.
Reading and knowing is ok, but applying it just from "nonplayble" skill calculator won't do it for me.

 

[raphier]

wat

Isn't this literally impossible to do? Even on LAN you have a 1-5ms ping.

I bet there is latency, it's not an issue anymore.

 

[KKRT00]

Basically says that the game doesn't wait for a response so it's as if playing offline - if any shenanigans are discovered then it will disconnect.

The Client doesn’t require the server to respond, hence removing Latency from the equation. The exact technical information of how this works is unknown, particularly how it protects the game from tampering with the client, however it is believed that the server checks all the data that comes from the client, and if it detects tampering it disconnects the client. This eliminates the need for the client to have to wait for a response from the server, and runs as business as usual unless the server doesn’t like what the client has sent it.

Good info for legit players and unfortunately great for hackers.

 

[Belgorim]

Good info for legit players and unfortunately great for hackers.

Sounds like a hackers dream yeah...

 

[Trickster]

Good info for legit players and unfortunately great for hackers.

When you say hackers, do you mean people that hack other people's accounts, or people that use bots, maphack etc.?

Also, I'm not really too knowledgable about this kinda thing, so I'm curious what it is about this that makes people say it's good for hackers.

 

[Belgorim]

When you say hackers, do you mean people that hack other people's accounts, or people that use bots, maphack etc.?

Also, I'm not really too knowledgable about this kinda thing, so I'm curious what it is about this that makes people say it's good for hackers.

I think what he is referring to is the rampant duping and botting that went on in d2.

edit: Duping would be the complete nail in the coffin for the RMAH.

 

[Number45]

I don't see how it's good for hackers - assuming the server side tech is up to snuff it can (and will) disconnect anything that doesn't fit within the standard profile. I can see them being very aggressive about it, unlike with WoW where their bot-customers pay the same amount as normal customers.

 

[maabus1999]

Cool beans!

Latency no longer a Factor in Diablo 3 Combat?

"According to a few sources playing the F&F Beta, it seems that Blizzard may have found a way to completely remove the delay of character combat actions resulting from network latency.

F&F sources have it that Blizzard are using a new method of client/server communication that provides a secure and tamper-proof method of using the local client to handle its own calculations, while sending the data to the server for verification."

I don't think this is confirmed. This is a bunch of Australians assuming something with no confirmation.

In counterpoint, there are a few posts on the beta forums where people complain about lag and rubber banding so I'm not sure where these guys are coming from.

 

[CaLe]

The battle.net website is down and you can't login to your diablo 3 account.

Invites incoming today ?

Edit: Battle.net just went back up, still can't login though.

 

[KKRT00]

I don't see how it's good for hackers - assuming the server side tech is up to snuff it can (and will) disconnect anything that doesn't fit within the standard profile. I can see them being very aggressive about it, unlike with WoW where their bot-customers pay the same amount as normal customers.

They can reverse engineer inputs and outputs and have control over it, they can research what client outputs to Diablo 3 servers denies and which one accept, so they can find easier ways to create items or clone items, boost chars etc.
It will be also easy to make offline version of D3, because of it. Making mods will be also easier.

 

[Twinduct]

Cool beans!

Latency no longer a Factor in Diablo 3 Combat?

"According to a few sources playing the F&F Beta, it seems that Blizzard may have found a way to completely remove the delay of character combat actions resulting from network latency.

F&F sources have it that Blizzard are using a new method of client/server communication that provides a secure and tamper-proof method of using the local client to handle its own calculations, while sending the data to the server for verification."

And with that, i'm completely on board! I didn't care about the always online portion. Hell I though it was pretty cool. But I was worried about latency. Getting around 400-500 ms latency to official Euro WOW servers had me worried. But this is great news!

 

[flashburn2012]

I don't think this is confirmed. This is a bunch of Australians assuming something with no confirmation.

In counterpoint, there are a few posts on the beta forums where people complain about lag and rubber banding so I'm not sure where these guys are coming from.

As of last week (there hasn't been a patch) there definitely is rubberbanding and other lag issues. One problem I've had several times is where you can move around just fine and attack, but you can't damage anything and the mobs don't move or attack either.

 

[Belgorim]

As of last week (there hasn't been a patch) there definitely is rubberbanding and other lag issues. One problem I've had several times is where you can move around just fine and attack, but you can't damage anything and the mobs don't move or attack either.

That would mean it is server-side. So all good in that case.

 

[Corky]

Too little media

too little...

*sob*

 

[red731]

Too little media

too little...

*sob*

Yeah

well, at least two streams are on

 

[Corky]

Yeah

well, at least two streams are on

(ノಠ益&#3232ノ彡┻━┻

To heck with your streams!!! GIVE ME REAL FOOTAGE GAAAAAAH...

Lassie...c'mere boy, go get BlimBlim...

 

[chris-013]

They can reverse engineer inputs and outputs and have control over it, they can research what client outputs to Diablo 3 servers denies and which one accept, so they can find easier ways to create items or clone items, boost chars etc.
It will be also easy to make offline version of D3, because of it. Making mods will be also easier.

That what I was thinking too but now they add some informations and this system only work for combat. Loots, random maps, chests, etc... is still server side.

 

[Corky]

omgggg the gore is amzaaaaaaaaing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTfb9I2zB60&feature=player_detailpage#t=117s

Look! LOOKT AT IT!

edit : 1080p. Pick! PICK IT!

 

[forrest]

Every build I have seen for DH has been

fuckingrockets.png

Actually I posted a Shadow Power/Regen build a few pages back. Was actually my first build thoughts, then thought about a Rocket/Grenade build.

 

[red731]

(ノಠ益&#3232ノ彡┻━┻

To heck with your streams!!! GIVE ME REAL FOOTAGE GAAAAAAH...

Lassie...c'mere boy, go get BlimBlim...

I want real foota- hell! I want to play the game already!

I know what all of us are feeling, I will be even sadder if I don't make it to beta

And I know that people who get there will piss me off...which is sad too, but that is the way it is.

omgggg the gore is amzaaaaaaaaing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTfb9I2zB60&feature=player_detailpage#t=117s

Look! LOOKT AT IT!

edit : 1080p. Pick! PICK IT!

At home, on TV... weeee

 

[V_Arnold]

Favoring hackers? Hell no. The way I see this is this:

We have a scene.
Mob X1, Mob X2, Mob X3 is present at the screen.
Also, Character 1.

Character 1 hits an ability. Like a Cleave. The Server and the Client both know the proper range of the cleave and both has the same data regarding the "hitbox" and damage of it.

So what is happening with a hypothetical "process first, send later" system:

0ms: button pressed
0+x ms: action recognized, Cleave has hit mob x1 and mob x2 (those were in range)
0+x ms: action history sent to server for checking.
0+ x ms + y ms: action history recognized by the server, checking
0+ x ms + y ms + z ms: server processing done, recognized action as valid (no feedback), or invalid (disconnect)
0+ x ms + 2y + z ms: action feedback back to the client. Gameplay continues.

Now, compare this to the standard "laggy way" where it is simply 0 ms + x + 2y between the buttons hit and the action being dealt with in the game. X is the time spent between thie frame you pressed button and the frame that it was recognized and processed as a command, y being the time you need to upload your data to the server, and z the time Blizz's servers take to process (verify) your data.

I do not see where this can help hackers.
At the keyboard state? Well, all bots use artificial keyboard states anyway, which is something that Blizzard has a lot of experience dealing with thanks to their Warden system in WoW.
At the mob behavior state? How come? The server will check the data anyway. If you try to make the server believe that the mobs moved differently than they were supposed to, then it is a DC, and no loot. Same goes for the damage part: if your hitbox sent is larger than the action's supposed hitbox size, it is a DC. Nothing more.

Of course, it should be already obvious that no item duplications will be possible with this architecture, because a mob will only drop loot if its death was clean and verified, and I am pretty sure Blizzard made sure that ALL loot is individually recognized and ID-d, therefore there is no possibility of any hacking around that part.

Blizzard has already proved to me that they are able to protect their servers (see: WoW), and that they have the additional methods (Warden, unknown checking/verifying system for combat, loot being server-side) to defend it further.

I do not see how this system would benefit hackers at all, as opposed to players seeing more fluid, responsive combat. Especially when they play alone.

 

[zoukka]

Haha the twitching animation of a dead electrocuted enemy is amazing.

 

[TheExodu5]

V_Arnold, in your hypothetical, you're still assuming the client only sees feedback for their action once the server processes the action and sends back a response. If there is truly no lag, then the feedback would have to occur client side.

My guess: there are two states. There is a client-side state, and a server-side state. The client-side state is going to be y ahead of the server. How I would go about doing this:

Have the client side generate the action with the random seed associated to that action, and send it to the server.
By this point, the client has already resolved the action and the player has gotten feedback.
The server then checks the uploaded action, along with the generated random seed or the full client-side state, and validates it.
If there are any discrepencies, the server disconnects the player.

Of course, the question here for hackers is this: what can be spoofed? If the client needs immediate feedback, then the client is determining the random seed for the attack, which means that could technically be spoofed. Hackers could possibly make their weapons output the max damage on their weapon every time.

Anyways, that's one theory.

I really don't see any way to make it lag-free (client-side) without leaving the game vulnerable to hackers.

edit: the problem I'm seeing here is with the random seed. However, come to think of it, maybe the server could determine a bunch of random seeds ahead of time and send them to the client. Then, the client wouldn't lag out until it ran out of random seeds. The important thing here is to have the random seeds be generated by the server.

I'm quite interested in this...I hope we find out just how it works. Any evolution beyond stateful client-server architecture is a big plus to me, as long as they can somehow keep it secure.