White and Latino aren't mutually exclusive but Latino is an ethnic group that encompasses different race.
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Diet Racism is a real problem
- Thread starter SENPAIatLARGE
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This is how I see myself. The really fun thing is that being a white dude I have zero frame of reference, by which I mean that I have no idea where I am on that path or how close I am. It's all relative. I can say with certainty that I am closer today than I was a few years ago, but I don't feel close enough to apply the term "woke" to myself. I can almost guarantee the second I do, some backward-ass thing will pop in my head (or worse, out of my mouth), and I'll realize I still have a long ways to go.
So, with regards to the OP: yeah, it is. Some of us are working on it, honest.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Wrong thread!
Charles Brandon
Member
So where does this different ethnic race come from originally? This is a genuine question, I'm not disputing what you say.
BronsonLee
Member
Visibility + options they ignore
Probably because the representation of other ethnicities in media in this country vs. others is not reflective of the general population.
That would be my guess, anyway, without doing any research at all on the topic.
I have a question just for the sake of playing devil's advocate and hearing opinions on the matter. If I, as a biracial individual, dressed as a cowboy on Halloween - would I be accused of being culturally insensitive? One could argue that cowboys are a "western" culture, of which I technically am not a part of. Would that still be considered cultural appropriation, even though whites are the majority?
Cowboys were not exclusively white dudes, and it was an occupation, so I don't think so.
Sorry meant to say "encompasses different races" like you can be black and Latino or white and Latino
Charles Brandon
Member
Ah, that makes sense. OK I think I understand. Thanks.
Maybe something like a viking would be more appropriate for your question, since I'm pretty sure there were black cowboys
There are nutters on the internet saying the original vikings were black so you'll still offend SOMEone
I wouldn't say so because as Sai-kun said it was an occupation instead of a cultural thing. Maybe other people see it differently but I personally wouldn't see a white person dressing up as, for example, a Samurai, to be culturally insensitive; that same guy dressing up as a stereotypical "Japanese person" would be however.
Camp Freddie
Member
There were a LOT of black cowboys. It was a tough, dirty, low-wage and low-prestige job.
It was whitewashed because of the romanticism what was later attached to the job. Cowboys became a symbol of American independence, which wouldn't work (in a 20th century mindset) if that symbol was a black man.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
There were/are also a number of Native American cowboys, which made the whole 'cowboy vs Indian' thing kinda stupid.
I don't think you'd get many white people in the U.S. arguing against cultural appropriation in the first place.
And yea, there were black cowboys. If you really wanted to be different and go with the biracial angle you could be a llanero, who were basically all some mixture of black and other races. Plus they were instrumental in winning the wars for Spanish American independence; probably more important than the American cowboys were in their respective histories.
Hmm, well that's weird.
Brings to mind the historical accuracy argument, though. Like, should there be black or asian vikings in that Vikings TV show? I think that would be going a bit far.
Sunster
Member
hahaha yea, we as white people probably shouldn't ever call ourselves "woke" . Just gotta stay on the path, recognize and make changes where they are needed. Stay open to criticism and being called out too.
Charles Brandon
Member
I would say probably not. The show is reasonably historically accurate in that many of the characters existed, although the relationships between them may be invented (I'm pretty sure that Rollo and Ragnar were not brothers or even acquaintances) and the major events happened, although possibly not in that order. Having Vikings of different races would be jarring. You could possible argue for some black faces in England, although not amongst the aristocracy. They would most likely have still be very unusual at that time though.
On the other hand, there are a lot of Viking characters in the show who do not have blonde hair which is also likely to be somewhat inaccurate, so some liberties have already been taken.
Also, there is the case of Ahmad ibn Fadlān ibn al-Abbās ibn Rāšid ibn Hammād - The Arab ambassador to the Volga Vikings (and inspiration for The 13th Warrior) - this was sometime after the days of Ragnar and in the context of the Vikings who raided the east (Russia) - but given some of the poetic licence already used, a character based on this man could be used to provide some diversity without weakening the authenticity.
Vikings travelled all across the European continent and also made it to North America at some point. They even got to Constantinople and traded with them there and/or worked as bodyguards. In today's Istanbul there are engraved Nordic runes (tag) in one of the mosques.
So contact with other cultures and ethnicities and different amount of melanin aren't out of the question and could not only be imagined otherwise in a tv show or a film, but even have historically recorded leverage for such an inclusion.
So contact with other cultures and ethnicities and different amount of melanin aren't out of the question and could not only be imagined otherwise in a tv show or a film, but even have historically recorded leverage for such an inclusion.
Charles Brandon
Member
Constantinople would have been a predominantly European/white city at that time and crew that got to Newfoundland were much later than the time period of the show but yeah the point is taken. I recall that one of Ragnar's sons sailed into the med so presumably met some north African's on the way.
Hades Hotgun
Banned
This topic has some startling lack of self awareness.
It is an absurd false equivalency to argue that inclusion is no different than exclusion. White men are notoriously included while minorities and women are notoriously excluded.
People slot white guys in to roles as a result and continuation of a systemic process of presenting white people as the default version of humanity across all media.
People want women in battlefield because there is no reason they shouldn't be there.
There were certainly more women on the battlefields of the Great War than there were spawn points.
It is an absurd false equivalency to argue that inclusion is no different than exclusion. White men are notoriously included while minorities and women are notoriously excluded.
People slot white guys in to roles as a result and continuation of a systemic process of presenting white people as the default version of humanity across all media.
People want women in battlefield because there is no reason they shouldn't be there.
There were certainly more women on the battlefields of the Great War than there were spawn points.
The Last Wizard
Member
I don't think it's a lack of awareness. More of the fuck y'all variety, look at any thread that deals with diversity and see the vile shit a lot of people say.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
It's a strange Amercanism. Portugese and Spanish speaking people are still considered white in Europe. There's no distinction at all here.
Just another way humans find to separate themselves out.
Charles Brandon
Member
Of course there is a reason. Which is that, excepting a few Russian units and a handful of isolated examples elsewhere, there were no women on the frontline. You could use the Russian units if you wanted to I guess, but having female US, French, German or British units would be bizarre, from a historical point of view. Spawn points are other game mechanics are not the same thing.
That being said, I wouldn't object to giving people the option of choosing a female character. But to say there is no reason not to do it is silly.
Brianimaniac
Banned
Where do folks stand on things like pirate costumes, where people are dressing up like criminals who went around robbing and killing others for a living?
bootsthecat
Banned
I'll admit I don't keep up on my pirate history, but I don't recall them being systematically oppressed for any length of time.
I just almost died imagining modern day pirates going "my culture is not a costume"
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Wrong thread?
Charles Brandon
Member
You could say they were systematically oppressed but only because they were, by definition, criminals.
Brianimaniac
Banned
Yes. Had three threads involving racism open. Was meant for the one about problematic Halloween costumes.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
They certainly were systematically oppressed they criminals. The notable in the Caribbean the majority were pardoned in the end. There's nothing ethnically specific about being a pirate though, any ethnicity that was around at the were pirates and there's still pirates today.
BlazinSkatinAxel
Member
Spanish for a long time weren't because they are mixed with black.
Look up the Moors Spanish invasion.
The Last Wizard
Member
Still didn't stop them from treating people with darker skin like shit as well as second class.
Charles Brandon
Member
Whilst it is true that majority of the Spanish peninsula was rules by the moors at one point, I don't recall any evidence that the Spanish themselves were ever considered to be black by other europeans (although interbreeding no doubt occurred). That's not to say that you're wrong though, have you got a source?
SENPAIatLARGE
Banned
They're were black and biracial cowboys. Look up Bass Reeves.
SENPAIatLARGE
Banned
Moors dont exist?
At that point you've upgraded from diet racism to calorie rich full blown racism.
Charles Brandon
Member
Tarantino always seems to get very close to the line, if not way beyond it at times.
I never understood the problem with pandering .... like white characters ARE pandering. Straight characters ARE PANDERING. why it is only a problem when it is a minority pandering ?
CyclopsRock
Member
I think in South and Central America it's distinct because there was a lot more ethnic mixing between European settlers and indigenous ethnicities (compared to, say, in North America where this was relatively much less). That said, I saw someone mentioned how they were disappointed with the Harlem Hellfighters section due to the limited roll the protagonists actually had but said "at least one of the campaigns was Italian".
It's not the fucking Spanish peninsula. It's Iberian Peninsula.
Charles Brandon
Member
You're point is valid, I just got triggered...
Regarding the "Latin" definition in America, it's not about people from Portuguese and Spanish descent. It's about South and Central American people that are descendant from a mix of European (Portuguese and Spanish) settlers, African slaves and Indigenous tribes.
KonradLaw
Member
Thats because to have women in army in combat roles the country needs to in really dire straits. USA has never been in a war that would put it in such position. Every war it fought was very easy on the country, so it could afford to have only the men being sent to the front, thus the concept of women in army is alien to most americans.
Meanwhile in Europe it's a lot more acceptable because of WWII is still part of every nation's collective memory.
Charles Brandon
Member
I don't think any European army (apart from Russia) has ever used female soldiers in the modern period until very recently(?) (except in the case of handfuls of women who have pretended to be men). Russia is noted for having used female soldiers in battle, mainly in WW2 as snipers, but even then they were a very small part of a very big army.
Frozenprince
Banned
Battlefield 1 is a WW1 game where you spend 0 time in trenches and charge at people point blank, you respawn, there are "hero" characters.
I'm sorry fuck that historical accuracy bullshit excuse because it sure as shit doesn't apply to the actual game you play.
Charles Brandon
Member
It's a game that tries to recreate WW1 within the confines of something that is also fun to play. So there are many, many obvious concessions to game mechanics that don't reflect the actual experience of warfare in the period, some of which you have mentioned. Dice tried to keep things as accurate as possible by, for instance, including guns that did at least exist in the period, even if they were not widely used. It's not a simulation clearly. Does that mean that they could have included female combatants? Sure. But I don't think it's fair to say that there was no reason not to.
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