Support NeoGAF

[Knitted Knight]

Here are some of the issues...

Source:

Spoiler

Summary:

No shadows under NPCs, including Chief. No shadows under plasma grenade (shadow inconsistency/lack-off everywhere).
Texture/object pop-in everywhere (far away and close), not just lighting reflection lag.
Lack of reflections on muzzle flash. Lack of muzzle flash effect but yet gun displays reflections. Reflection glitches everywhere basically.
Static environments - no dynamism on trees, wind etc on troop carriers. World feels lifeless.
No windshield shading (Ship getting shot point blank but no cracks/effects or any sort of damage to the ship's hull while the scene plays out - just crappy "shaking"). I might add: crappy dialogue that doesn't sell aka poor script/voice acting. Facial animation is off too (aka get better mocap).
No bullet shading on armor of enemies getting shot.
Crappy animations - lack of detail and delayed reactions.
No animation reaction on naded' enemies compared to past Halo's. Enemy AI simply dumbed down.
Grappling hook poorly showcased with the level/encounter design (could have been better).
Poor particle effects/FX on plasma grenades compared to past Halo's.
No scorch marks - lack of shading for after effects of fire/grenade explosions on grass/environments.
Character models lack detail. Animations don't sell the emotion.

Conclusion: Looks like a current gen game missing last gen details. Digital foundry damage controlled by focusing on lighting and wasn't anywhere near thorough enough in pointing out the problems with the game.

Here is the crux of the issue.

Battaglia did the least critique he could to give some credibility to the piece and ended up using it as a way to essentially make a case for "wait for the RT patch" to define how the game can be saved.

That is true here regardless of the lack of a deeper dive that people are trying to pass by as "you're too picky".

 

[Gravemind]

I have seen people complain about many aspects of halo infinite graphics, but no one said "flat" just unimpressive for many reasons.

Wtf happened to Halo?

The franchise is now in the hands of a subpar studio filled with mediocre developers.

People go on about how cross gen is holding this game back, but I honestly think it has more to do with 343 Industries itself. There are very good looking Xbox One/PS4 games. Games that put the Halo Infinite demo to shame graphically. There's no reason why the game's textures, lighting, and model detailing should be this bad, especially on the XSX version of the game that was shown off.

The character models look like something out of the late xbox 360 generation. It's that bad.

 

[VulcanRaven]

The game has to work on the original Xbox One so I'm not suprised that it doesn't look next-gen.

 

[FranXico]

The character models look like something out of the late xbox 360 generation. It's that bad.

Kingthrash showed Halo 3 footage. It looked better than HI in literally every way.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

People go on about how cross gen is holding this game back, but I honestly think it has more to do with 343 Industries itself.

Agreed, if this was only about graphics... I mean, what would a game like Gears 5 look on high end PCs or the series X? what about RDR2? and there would be no point in modding games like shyrim/GTA5, etc. They all can have RT tacked on and be made to look shinier, run at higher resolutions and frame-rate.

The benefits of true "next-gen" games will still be visible (I think the variety of landscape and movement speed of open world games will be greatly improved). Closeup details have a potential of being very much improved as well, if we are to believe the Horizon Zero Dawn 2 reveal (and it would make sense).

The game has to work on the original Xbox One so I'm not suprised that it doesn't look next-gen.

This is a cop out, there are plenty of much better looking games that have to work on the one.

 

[Vae_Victis]

Saying that the lighting is a mess and needs fixing, and saying that that is the ONLY problem, are two very different things.

There are other deep issues in the demo from both a technical and an artistic point of view. Apart from the very evident pop-in and short draw distance, the world is just completely static and dead. Trees might as well be made of stone, and not a single blade of grass seems to move, ever, no matter what happens. Shots and even explosions leave zero visible marks on enemies or the environment, once they go off it's like they never existed to begin with. Smoke and fire effects are dead flat. In-game models are mediocre, animations are very basic and sometimes shoddily jointed, ragdoll seems wonky in one or two instances, even the mo-cap work is imprecise and over exaggerated, failing to convey any subtle facial movement and relying on extreme facial expressions that border the parody.

I'm not even going into the more purely technical things, like a very visible lower resolution in the shading of surfaces in the distance, something that is visible even in some of the promotional screenshots (and something which, BTW, is the kind of stuff Digital Foundry often is overly-anal about even when it's NOT immediately noticeable to the eye, let alone in cases like this).

 

[PumpkinPie]

I think the real issue here needs to be discussed: have they fixed the controls of the Warthog yet?

 

[Hawking Radiation]

The game has to work on the original Xbox One so I'm not suprised that it doesn't look next-gen.

But MS told me that next gen games won't be held back by current gen tech.

So yet more lies from Spencer and co.

 

[oldergamer]

But MS told me that next gen games won't be held back by current gen tech.

So yet more lies from Spencer and co.

Who says thats the reason it looks like it does. Look at farcry, does it look like its held back due to ps4 and xbone?

 

[Shmunter]

Who says thats the reason it looks like it does. Look at farcry, does it look like its held back due to ps4 and xbone?

Logic meet oldergamer, oldergamer meet logic. Get to know each other, even get a bit frisky if you will.

 

[azertydu91]

Who says thats the reason it looks like it does. Look at farcry, does it look like its held back due to ps4 and xbone?

Well it has no gameplay available it's impossible to tell.But I'd say probably...
Simply for the ssd (and it's not a ps5 vs xsx both have one) you can probably create world with better fast travel, loading and textures.Load elements almost on the go from it, that can change gamedesign quite a bit.
To add a bit of example I feel like all cross gen games at the start of this gen were limited by the previous gen and that's why we can now see incredible looking games like Horizon or Gears 5 and I'm not sure they could've been so good if they had to be compatible with ps360.

 

[Aceofspades]

Here are some of the issues...

Source:

Spoiler

Summary:

No shadows under NPCs, including Chief. No shadows under plasma grenade (shadow inconsistency/lack-off everywhere).
Texture/object pop-in everywhere (far away and close), not just lighting reflection lag.
Lack of reflections on muzzle flash. Lack of muzzle flash effect but yet gun displays reflections. Reflection glitches everywhere basically.
Static environments - no dynamism on trees, wind etc on troop carriers. World feels lifeless.
No windshield shading (Ship getting shot point blank but no cracks/effects or any sort of damage to the ship's hull while the scene plays out - just crappy "shaking"). I might add: crappy dialogue that doesn't sell aka poor script/voice acting. Facial animation is off too (aka get better mocap).
No bullet shading on armor of enemies getting shot.
Crappy animations - lack of detail and delayed reactions.
No animation reaction on naded' enemies compared to past Halo's. Enemy AI simply dumbed down.
Grappling hook poorly showcased with the level/encounter design (could have been better).
Poor particle effects/FX on plasma grenades compared to past Halo's.
No scorch marks - lack of shading for after effects of fire/grenade explosions on grass/environments.
Character models lack detail. Animations don't sell the emotion.

Conclusion: Looks like a current gen game missing last gen details. Digital foundry damage controlled by focusing on lighting and wasn't anywhere near thorough enough in pointing out the problems with the game.

Here is the crux of the issue.



That is true here regardless of the lack of a deeper dive that people are trying to pass by as "you're too picky".

Brutal analysis, DF should be ashamed.

 

[Evangelion Unit-01]

DF did a nice job of laying out a bunch of the issues with the demo. Some of them can be "fixed" but it remains to be seen how many of the issues will be. Considering RT is coming in a patch after launch I'm not exactly hopeful.

I think the art style is another issue. During the full show recap they compared Halo with Destiny on several occasions. I think this is an apt comparison in many ways. Artistically, Destiny is an evolution of what Bungie did on Halo, particularly Halo Reach. 343 changed the art style drastically in 4/5. The new art broke continuity and IMO was not as striking as Bungie's. Halo 5 in particular suffered from this plastic almost toy like appearance to metals-particularly the weapons and armor. Despite moving closer to Bungie's art it seems some of that plastic appearance carried over to Infinite. The weapons lack that grit, wear, and tear from the Bungie games. Furthermore a lot of the blocky brute redesigns and modern looking weapons did not land with me. All of that said, I was really excited about The return to classic art but I wish they would have fully committed. They did so with Halo 2 Anniversary singleplayer and that game looks incredible-a true evolution of Halo's aesthetic as opposed to 4/5's overhaul or Infinite's hybrid approach. I will say the Chief's armor is absolutely fantastic and the best he has looked in a long time.

 

[Knitted Knight]

Got me thinking how the demo had button prompts for the new Xbox Controller. If this thing hadn't blown up the way it did we would be here assuming the game was showcased on Series X and anyone attempting to say otherwise ridiculed... always misleading.

 

[BRZBlue]

Isn't there no such thing as VRS 3x3 tho? So what is it? Textures just not loading from placeholders?

 

[pawel86ck]

Here are some of the issues...

Source:

Spoiler

Summary:

No shadows under NPCs, including Chief. No shadows under plasma grenade (shadow inconsistency/lack-off everywhere).
Texture/object pop-in everywhere (far away and close), not just lighting reflection lag.
Lack of reflections on muzzle flash. Lack of muzzle flash effect but yet gun displays reflections. Reflection glitches everywhere basically.
Static environments - no dynamism on trees, wind etc on troop carriers. World feels lifeless.
No windshield shading (Ship getting shot point blank but no cracks/effects or any sort of damage to the ship's hull while the scene plays out - just crappy "shaking"). I might add: crappy dialogue that doesn't sell aka poor script/voice acting. Facial animation is off too (aka get better mocap).
No bullet shading on armor of enemies getting shot.
Crappy animations - lack of detail and delayed reactions.
No animation reaction on naded' enemies compared to past Halo's. Enemy AI simply dumbed down.
Grappling hook poorly showcased with the level/encounter design (could have been better).
Poor particle effects/FX on plasma grenades compared to past Halo's.
No scorch marks - lack of shading for after effects of fire/grenade explosions on grass/environments.
Character models lack detail. Animations don't sell the emotion.

Conclusion: Looks like a current gen game missing last gen details. Digital foundry damage controlled by focusing on lighting and wasn't anywhere near thorough enough in pointing out the problems with the game.

Here is the crux of the issue.



That is true here regardless of the lack of a deeper dive that people are trying to pass by as "you're too picky".

Alex mentioned pop-in issues as well, and he was right suggesting the lighting is the worst offender in halo. Many issues from King Thrash list can be fixed with RT, for example character and NPC shadows, grenade / weapon flash lighting effects, washed out textures (good lighting brings out fine details on textures and that's why the best looking games currently use additional lights just for cutscenes).

RT has the potential to fix flat lighting in halo, at least on PC, but I'm not so sure if XSX can run RT GI at 4K 60fps (probably not). I would rather want 1440p 60fps + RT GI like Alex suggest than 4K 60fps but with xbox 360 like lighting (even crysis 1 port on switch has better lighting than halo infinite). On top of that 4K in halo infinite has VRS macroblocks on all fast moving objects, so obviously 4K 60fps was to much even for 12TF XSX GPU (and I'm not surprised because even 2080ti Oc'ed to 17TF cant run many current gen games at locked 4K 60fps as well). If they really want to deliver 4K 60fps no matter what thry they should at least use prebaked GI like the vast majority of games on current gen consoles (preferably for each TOD settings).

 

[oldergamer]

Logic meet oldergamer, oldergamer meet logic. Get to know each other, even get a bit frisky if you will. ❤

I have a lead technical programmer friend that worked on the new Farcry. older hardware didn't hold back the game on newer hardware. period.

 

[oldergamer]

Well it has no gameplay available it's impossible to tell.But I'd say probably...
Simply for the ssd (and it's not a ps5 vs xsx both have one) you can probably create world with better fast travel, loading and textures.Load elements almost on the go from it, that can change gamedesign quite a bit.
To add a bit of example I feel like all cross gen games at the start of this gen were limited by the previous gen and that's why we can now see incredible looking games like Horizon or Gears 5 and I'm not sure they could've been so good if they had to be compatible with ps360.

This is what I've been saying. Gameplay wise there is nothing you can do on the new console, that can't be done on the old console in a smart scaled back way. The only thing you can't do is stream as many assets due to HD bandwidth, but we've seen no evidence that would impact gameplay if its for visual impact. Ratchet and Clank with fast travel/fast loads isn't the norm when it comes to gameplay.

 

[Shmunter]

I have a lead technical programmer friend that worked on the new Farcry. older hardware didn't hold back the game on newer hardware. period.

This is what I've been saying. Gameplay wise there is nothing you can do on the new console, that can't be done on the old console in a smart scaled back way. The only thing you can't do is stream as many assets due to HD bandwidth, but we've seen no evidence that would impact gameplay if its for visual impact. Ratchet and Clank with fast travel/fast loads isn't the norm when it comes to gameplay.

Yes you can only drive a car in a driving game in so many ways, or smoke Russians in an FPS with so much gusto. Gameplay is usually restricted by human cognition and the imagination of the designers. Sometimes we see fresh ways to reinvigorate what a game can be, e.g. Death Stranding, but it's rare.

But holding games back in a technical sense is not a meme as Spencer puts it. Physics, world simulation, complex effects, density, are unlikely to be part of the design brief in a game that needs to run up and down a spec range. And you end up with basic rez bump and token effects like ray traced puddles - if that.

 

[Ascend]

Kingthrash showed Halo 3 footage. It looked better than HI in literally every way.

I doubt it's literally every way. Even if we use Halo 3 MCC PC, many textures in HI are still higher quality. I didn't watch this video yet. I will try to do so later.

 

[FireFly]

I doubt it's literally every way. Even if we use Halo 3 MCC PC, many textures in HI are still higher quality. I didn't watch this video yet. I will try to do so later.

Spoiler

 

[oldergamer]

I wouldn't even say Death stranding did anything all that innovative. It was more on the controls, then it was otherwise. At it's core its delivery or escort missions which have been around forever.

 

[Inuteu]

so the escuses are the lighting in that time of day and the pandemic?

ghost of tsushima looks beatiful in that time of day lighting

 

[HaveButOneLife]

As flat as Ellen Page.

so the escuses are the lighting in that time of day and the pandemic?

ghost of tsushima looks beatiful in that time of day lighting

TLOU2 looks pretty meh in daytime but CAKE during dusk/nighttime, Ghost didn't impress me during day time either.

 

[Coolwhhip]

I think the real issue here needs to be discussed: have they fixed the controls of the Warthog yet?

We don't talk about gameplay here.

 

[Shmunter]

I wouldn't even say Death stranding did anything all that innovative. It was more on the controls, then it was otherwise. At it's core its delivery or escort missions which have been around forever.

Everything is derivative in some way these days. Our imagination has run its course. Look at all the Hollywood gender flipped remakes.

 

[McCarth]

Here are some of the issues...

Source:

Spoiler

Summary:

No shadows under NPCs, including Chief. No shadows under plasma grenade (shadow inconsistency/lack-off everywhere).
Texture/object pop-in everywhere (far away and close), not just lighting reflection lag.
Lack of reflections on muzzle flash. Lack of muzzle flash effect but yet gun displays reflections. Reflection glitches everywhere basically.
Static environments - no dynamism on trees, wind etc on troop carriers. World feels lifeless.
No windshield shading (Ship getting shot point blank but no cracks/effects or any sort of damage to the ship's hull while the scene plays out - just crappy "shaking"). I might add: crappy dialogue that doesn't sell aka poor script/voice acting. Facial animation is off too (aka get better mocap).
No bullet shading on armor of enemies getting shot.
Crappy animations - lack of detail and delayed reactions.
No animation reaction on naded' enemies compared to past Halo's. Enemy AI simply dumbed down.
Grappling hook poorly showcased with the level/encounter design (could have been better).
Poor particle effects/FX on plasma grenades compared to past Halo's.
No scorch marks - lack of shading for after effects of fire/grenade explosions on grass/environments.
Character models lack detail. Animations don't sell the emotion.

Conclusion: Looks like a current gen game missing last gen details. Digital foundry damage controlled by focusing on lighting and wasn't anywhere near thorough enough in pointing out the problems with the game.

Here is the crux of the issue.



That is true here regardless of the lack of a deeper dive that people are trying to pass by as "you're too picky".

I didn't think the DF review was that bad, but this guy does a great job at pointing out a lot more issues. It really does seem like this game and what MS wants it to be just isn't in the wheelhouse of 343.

Unfortunately they will likely get a whole bunch of undeserved (some will be deserved I'll give you that) flak this Fall if they don't turn this ship around.

 

[Sony]

Whe

Here are some of the issues...

Source:

Spoiler

Summary:

No shadows under NPCs, including Chief. No shadows under plasma grenade (shadow inconsistency/lack-off everywhere).
Texture/object pop-in everywhere (far away and close), not just lighting reflection lag.
Lack of reflections on muzzle flash. Lack of muzzle flash effect but yet gun displays reflections. Reflection glitches everywhere basically.
Static environments - no dynamism on trees, wind etc on troop carriers. World feels lifeless.
No windshield shading (Ship getting shot point blank but no cracks/effects or any sort of damage to the ship's hull while the scene plays out - just crappy "shaking"). I might add: crappy dialogue that doesn't sell aka poor script/voice acting. Facial animation is off too (aka get better mocap).
No bullet shading on armor of enemies getting shot.
Crappy animations - lack of detail and delayed reactions.
No animation reaction on naded' enemies compared to past Halo's. Enemy AI simply dumbed down.
Grappling hook poorly showcased with the level/encounter design (could have been better).
Poor particle effects/FX on plasma grenades compared to past Halo's.
No scorch marks - lack of shading for after effects of fire/grenade explosions on grass/environments.
Character models lack detail. Animations don't sell the emotion.

Conclusion: Looks like a current gen game missing last gen details. Digital foundry damage controlled by focusing on lighting and wasn't anywhere near thorough enough in pointing out the problems with the game.

Here is the crux of the issue.



That is true here regardless of the lack of a deeper dive that people are trying to pass by as "you're too picky".

When the gameplay was revealed, a lot of people thought the game looked bad. Something was off about it. The details you/that video listed are details that very much matter, but are not the reason for the generally mediocre reception. The DF video goes into detail on why the gameplay looks like the way it does and why people were so put off by it. Of course there are many more details missing, but those are not the details that caused the mass fallout.

The DF video does a great job explaining why the general reception to the gameplay was bad. The video is not called "All Graphical Features Missing in Halo Infinite". This DF bashing had to come to an end.

 

[Shinobitron]

Another Halo Breakdown from a dev

Nothing special, maybe more of the same, just another person with dev experience point of view.

 

[iconmaster]

I get what Alex is saying here, but it's an odd place to end up: the lighting looks flat because it's actually too accurate, but also ray tracing will help.

 

[Cacadookie]

Here are some of the issues...

Source:

Spoiler

Summary:

No shadows under NPCs, including Chief. No shadows under plasma grenade (shadow inconsistency/lack-off everywhere).
Texture/object pop-in everywhere (far away and close), not just lighting reflection lag.
Lack of reflections on muzzle flash. Lack of muzzle flash effect but yet gun displays reflections. Reflection glitches everywhere basically.
Static environments - no dynamism on trees, wind etc on troop carriers. World feels lifeless.
No windshield shading (Ship getting shot point blank but no cracks/effects or any sort of damage to the ship's hull while the scene plays out - just crappy "shaking"). I might add: crappy dialogue that doesn't sell aka poor script/voice acting. Facial animation is off too (aka get better mocap).
No bullet shading on armor of enemies getting shot.
Crappy animations - lack of detail and delayed reactions.
No animation reaction on naded' enemies compared to past Halo's. Enemy AI simply dumbed down.
Grappling hook poorly showcased with the level/encounter design (could have been better).
Poor particle effects/FX on plasma grenades compared to past Halo's.
No scorch marks - lack of shading for after effects of fire/grenade explosions on grass/environments.
Character models lack detail. Animations don't sell the emotion.

Conclusion: Looks like a current gen game missing last gen details. Digital foundry damage controlled by focusing on lighting and wasn't anywhere near thorough enough in pointing out the problems with the game.

Here is the crux of the issue.



That is true here regardless of the lack of a deeper dive that people are trying to pass by as "you're too picky".

This has been my problem with the Gameplay trailer. It really did lack dynamism. I was hoping we would see more physics simulations and more environmental interactions in the game considering there is now more computational power.

But instead we got gameplay where a warthog can't even leave tread marks and deform the terrain.

-No craters created from explosions.
-No environmental destruction like splintering tree from weapons fire.
-No water physics to be seen.
-No foliage sway or some kind of wind simulation.
-No show of weather effects like rain/storm simulation.
-Alien weapon projectiles don't even cast light sources anymore.

343i didn't show any of the technical feats of the engine; Just gameplay in a stale ass environment and that really blows.

Some more of the gripes I have with the game .

-I really dislike the exaggerated death animations. A shotgun blast made a brute do a backflip. seriously?

-Grunts get shot in the head and keep doing the same arms up in the air animation (Remind me of the Elites in Halo 4 and halo 5 where they would get shot in the head and do that same tripping animation). Animated death animations that lead to ragdoll are getting stale.

-There needs to be more reactive ragdoll or animations on the fly like euphoria.



Considering machine learning physics is becoming a thing. I really hope physics in games would get better this time around. Xbox series X GPU does support int4, int8, FP8 and FP16 and has a powerful Zen 2 CPU.

Next generation seems to be so underwhelming.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Here are some of the issues...

Source:

Spoiler

Summary:

No shadows under NPCs, including Chief. No shadows under plasma grenade (shadow inconsistency/lack-off everywhere).
Texture/object pop-in everywhere (far away and close), not just lighting reflection lag.
Lack of reflections on muzzle flash. Lack of muzzle flash effect but yet gun displays reflections. Reflection glitches everywhere basically.
Static environments - no dynamism on trees, wind etc on troop carriers. World feels lifeless.
No windshield shading (Ship getting shot point blank but no cracks/effects or any sort of damage to the ship's hull while the scene plays out - just crappy "shaking"). I might add: crappy dialogue that doesn't sell aka poor script/voice acting. Facial animation is off too (aka get better mocap).
No bullet shading on armor of enemies getting shot.
Crappy animations - lack of detail and delayed reactions.
No animation reaction on naded' enemies compared to past Halo's. Enemy AI simply dumbed down.
Grappling hook poorly showcased with the level/encounter design (could have been better).
Poor particle effects/FX on plasma grenades compared to past Halo's.
No scorch marks - lack of shading for after effects of fire/grenade explosions on grass/environments.
Character models lack detail. Animations don't sell the emotion.

Conclusion: Looks like a current gen game missing last gen details. Digital foundry damage controlled by focusing on lighting and wasn't anywhere near thorough enough in pointing out the problems with the game.

Here is the crux of the issue.



That is true here regardless of the lack of a deeper dive that people are trying to pass by as "you're too picky".

Kingthrash stays catching them out.

They even tried to bust on his intro a little bit back for the Sony event and acted all doofy cringe.

 

[NeroDaGod]

Damn, Digital foundry has really lost a lot of credibility. It's really sad to see to be honest because I really used to love their videos but, I feel no sympathy for them, especially after all the stuff about Alex and the Xbox Discord came to light. Hope the money was worth it.

 

[BRZBlue]

Whe


When the gameplay was revealed, a lot of people thought the game looked bad. Something was off about it. The details you/that video listed are details that very much matter, but are not the reason for the generally mediocre reception. The DF video goes into detail on why the gameplay looks like the way it does and why people were so put off by it. Of course there are many more details missing, but those are not the details that caused the mass fallout.

The DF video does a great job explaining why the general reception to the gameplay was bad. The video is not called "All Graphical Features Missing in Halo Infinite". This DF bashing had to come to an end.

I really don't think it did do a good job, to be honest. They never really went into why such a bad illumination system was used, when we have systems in other games that are far better. They used Metro as an example, but then Metro also has better assets... so the example didn't make any sense. All the issues compound. Expounding on lighting (when its entirely possible that a Ray Traced Global Illumination system isn't even possible with the game) is an "odd flex", when there are other aspects that affect the game's "flatness" just as badly. Heck, a lot of the ground stuff is old school textures with normal maps, not a lot of geometry there, which is weird when current gen games are modeling a lot of rock and ground geometry beyond normal maps.

Good example would be from the "other" forum regarding the weird texture loading that looks like VRS. Someone actually asked "This looks like VRS 3x3", reply was "its not, nothing supports VRS 3x3, don't know what it is". That's great, don't know what it is. Its still there, and happening. Maybe these weird low-res textures scattered in the background everywhere could add to it? There's just so much wrong, it almost feels like lighting was the first thing picked because its easy to point-to as a fix, when other things, such as the seeming complete lack of any physics ANYWHERE isn't. No mud, no water physics, no wind, no grass interaction, really bad particle physics (they literally seem to disappear in a few frames... why?).