Support NeoGAF

[MasterCornholio]

He mentioned this briefly here, and more in the DF commentary, but he feels this is mostly due to GPU limitations in scenes with a lot of greenery.

Well it's interesting that he thinks that when I read that SSDs can help with that kind of thing. But yes in the end the GPU has to draw it in.

 

[diffusionx]

Well it's interesting that he thinks that when I read that SSDs can help with that kind of thing. But yes in the end the GPU has to draw it in.

What did you read, that Next Gen hype thread? Probably should stop reading that.

 

[Tulipanzo]

Doesn't "soften" the BS his spitting, it only further proves that there is no such thing as real time lighting and he's only trying to fool the audience. How you explain the lack of shadow here under other objects as well?

UE5 PS5 demo did 16K real-time shadows instead of those flickery low res shadows shown on the demo.

I honestly have no idea how he could have not appeared biased to you.

He specifically criticized:
- Poor lighting with little gains
- Extreme pop-in
- Worse designs from previous Halos
- Opaque effects
- Poor facial animation
- Cross-gen development holding games back
He ends the video by suggesting MS should lower resolution!!

I can understand disagreeing or feeling Alex is sometimes too soft, but this is brutal.

 

[pawel86ck]

My friend, photo mode except in GT Sport and Forza are always representative of actual visuals in-game, but characters have LOD's, same for environments. The further you go the less details are drawn, and vice versa.

Photomode

Cutscene

Ingame character model looks the worst (and Nathan is the main character, NPCs looks even worse). Photomode looks a little bit better, but cutscene a different league on it's own due to beautiful lighting.

 

[MasterCornholio]

What did you read, that Next Gen hype thread? Probably should stop reading that.

No I read about asset streaming from several different threads and how it can help with LOD.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Photomode

Cutscene

Ingame character model looks the worst (and Nathan is thr main character, NPCs looks worse). Photomode looks a little bit better, but cutscene a different league on it's own due to beautiful lighting.

You're still using crops by the way.

 

[diffusionx]

No I read about asset streaming from several different threads and how it can help with LOD.

I don't know how much it will help with LOD, because something like grass would already be in RAM. But, I don't know. I was surprised at the pop-in too, and it's not like the game was lush with grass. I know not every game can be Ghost of Tsushima, but yea, really weird.

 

[Tiamat2san]

The lighting thing is fascinating. Halo Infinite is behind, and nothing will change that, but it's something I've been noticing lately.

Far Cry 5, for example. At the right time of day, and lighting conditions, that game can look stunningly gorgeous. At others? Decidedly more average. It's almost a generational difference between scenes.

It's something I'd like DF to look at more. This weird inconsistency depending on lighting is a new thing to gaming, and seeing it addressed for the first time was really interesting.

I am still amazed by the difference with ray tracing in their video of metro exodus.
To bad that's so expensive and our next-gen consoles will only be capable to do a little of this.
I hope some solutions will come in the future.
RT with DLSS might be part of the answer.
DLSS is so incredible too.
I am pro ultra resolution but DLSS changed my mind about quality image.

Launch games (on both machines) will be a decent upgrade but I am impatient to see what will come in 2 or 3 years.

 

[MasterCornholio]

I don't know how much it will help with LOD, because something like grass would already be in RAM. But, I don't know. I was surprised at the pop-in too, and it's not like the game was lush with grass. I know not every game can be Ghost of Tsushima, but yea, really weird.

Basically if the assets were loaded fast enough you wouldn't even notice the pop-in. Essentially you could have some really low quality grass in the distance and as you get closer you can swap it out for a much higher quality grass. If this is done fast enough you won't even notice the change. That's something that SFS is supposed to help out with in combination with a fast SSD.

But remember this demo was made on PC so it might be missing some of the I/O features the XSX has. The final product could be better.

 

[diffusionx]

Basically if the assets were loaded fast enough you wouldn't even notice the pop-in. Essentially you could have some really low quality grass in the distance and as you get closer you can swap it out for a much higher quality grass. If this is done fast enough you won't even notice the change. That's something that SFS is supposed to help out with in combination with a fast SSD.

But remember this demo was made on PC so it might be missing some of the I/O features the XSX has. The final product could be better.

I really doubt the game was running on a PC that wasn't at least as capable as a XSX, it was almost certainly far more powerful. It's not like they plugged it into a PC running a 1050ti with a 5400rpm HDD.

You're gonna see pop-in next gen. It will help with game development of course, because faster is better than slower, but it's not going to fix everything. All the talk we have seen from the beginning to now has been hype.

 

[sendit]

The graphics are incredibly flat, borderline horrible for a console with 12 teraflops. However, it's Halo. This is still a day 1 game for me.

 

[pixelation]

Yeah but lighting is not the only issue though, what about those textures, sub-par character models, hexagonal geometry, pop-in, and grass that magically grows in front of your eyes?

 

[diffusionx]

Yeah but lighting is not the only issue though, what about those textures, sub-par character models, hexagonal geometry, pop-in, and grass that magically grows in front of your eyes?

He mentioned some of those, seriously, do people just comment in these threads without watching?

 

[sendit]

Yeah but lighting is not the only issue though, what about those textures, sub-par character models, hexagonal geometry, pop-in, and grass that magically grows in front of your eyes?

To piggy back, let's not forget the horrible/lack of foliage interaction and movement. The world 343i created is incredibly static.

 

[pixelation]

He mentioned some of those, seriously, do people just comment in these threads without watching?

I watched it so please don't assume things. I say that because most people are running with that whole "oh it's just the lighting that's causing the bad look!" excuse and to that I say... Nope, not it's not.

 

[sendit]

He mentioned some of those, seriously, do people just comment in these threads without watching?

 

[Esca]

Graphics so flat they make Brie Larson look like she has an ass

 

[Senua]

Graphics so flat they make Brie Larson look like she has an ass

can ye say the same about her chesticles tho?

 

[sendit]

Basically if the assets were loaded fast enough you wouldn't even notice the pop-in. Essentially you could have some really low quality grass in the distance and as you get closer you can swap it out for a much higher quality grass. If this is done fast enough you won't even notice the change. That's something that SFS is supposed to help out with in combination with a fast SSD.

But remember this demo was made on PC so it might be missing some of the I/O features the XSX has. The final product could be better.

Without knowing the technical details. Judging it by face value, there was nothing shown from the Halo Infinite gameplay bit that looks like it requires anything more than a regular hard drive.

 

[DonMigs85]

Reminds me of the flak Perfect Dark Zero got during the Xbox 360 launch. Actually a lot of 360 launch titles didn't look much better than OG Xbox other than being 720p.

 

[RayHell]

Over dramatic.

Cross gen title not utilizing next gen tech. There is your summary.

But yet a Ray Tracing patch will be added later. Try again.

 

[Strider Highwind]

The lighting, ground textures, animation, and colors do look better in the new commercial that started running on youtube after the showcase. Are they using a different build, or were the people who put together the showcase reel just terrible at doing so?



Cause the 4k 60 of this commercial vs the 4k 60 of the showcase are two different beasts...the colors pop really good in the commercial. Noticed some bad framerate drops when the grappling hook is used however

Textures on the main bad guys face are still terrible too

 

[Yoboman]

Exhibit A right here. There isn't a single Xbox thread were this guy isn't shitting on Xbox one way or another.

My man, have you seen your own post history?

 

[LordOfChaos]

The lighting, ground textures, animation, and colors do look better in the new commercial that started running on youtube after the showcase. Are they using a different build, or were the people who put together the showcase reel just terrible at doing so?



Cause the 4k 60 of this commercial vs the 4k 60 of the showcase are two different beasts...the colors pop really good in the commercial. Noticed some bad framerate drops when the grappling hook is used however

Textures on the main bad guys face are still terrible too

It almost looked like the stream had the desaturation that comes with an HDR video played back on an SDR screen, but the trailer was properly captured or converted. The other issues still stand, but it doesn't look as muted.

 

[plasmawave]

Even when you're not in the shadows it still looks like crap.

 

[JLMC469]

But yet a Ray Tracing patch will be added later. Try again.

Try again what?

 

[bishopcruz]

I believe the issue is that he seemed to be defending it first then criticized it later . He even mentioned that thousands of games have had this lighting issue but have you ever seen a video from DF highlighting this in this way on any of those thousands of games?

If he had done a normal game analysis first and then talked about what could be done it would have come across different.

Well, when is the last time there was a massive Sony reveal from one of the biggest franchises of all time that disappointed graphically?

Explaining what the hell happened is a good take. Because having textures that looked that bad is something that I sure as shit had questions about.

 

[Shmunter]

The studio doesn't need to do anything. The game is designed for parity amongst multiple skus including range of PCs and cloud streaming on a phone where it looks good enough.

Surely by now people can plainly see XsX is not a sales priority but more of an inconvenient necessity forced by a tech arms race with the competition. Would not exist otherwise. Funnily People considered Kinect a detriment to gamers, welcome to the beginning of the end.

Xbox = Gamepass - Xcloud (ASAP)

 

[Mister Wolf]

The lighting, ground textures, animation, and colors do look better in the new commercial that started running on youtube after the showcase. Are they using a different build, or were the people who put together the showcase reel just terrible at doing so?



Cause the 4k 60 of this commercial vs the 4k 60 of the showcase are two different beasts...the colors pop really good in the commercial. Noticed some bad framerate drops when the grappling hook is used however

Textures on the main bad guys face are still terrible too

That's because they are in direct sunlight. It shows the limitation of the GI solution they decided to use when its not in direct sunlight.
In all honesty the Switch version of Crysis Remastered has a more advanced realtime global lighting solution with SVOGI(Voxel GI) built into CryEngine 3.

 

[Knightime_X]

If it only looked like this on the right

Isn't ray tracing patch a free download?
It'll look better than the photoshop picture

 

[TheGreatWhiteShark]

It almost looked like the stream had the desaturation that comes with an HDR video played back on an SDR screen, but the trailer was properly captured or converted. The other issues still stand, but it doesn't look as muted.

Agreed.
Here is that same video converted to 1000nits HDR. IMO worth a look for anyone that has a good 4k hdr display

 

[Mister Wolf]

Isn't ray tracing patch a free download?
It'll look better than the photoshop picture

If they use it for lighting. If we hear these guys talking about reflections then you know they've completely shit the bed.

 

[DynamiteCop!]

Lighting is everything.

 

[Knightime_X]

If they use it for lighting. If we hear these guys talking about reflections then you know they've completely shit the bed.

You have a point, but game will still be fun.
Nobody hates minecraft so yeah.

 

[Mister Wolf]

You have a point, but game will still be fun.
Nobody hates minecraft so yeah.

Of course. I'm getting it day one. I'm deeply invested in Halo's story and the series still has my favorite shooter gameplay.

 

[cryptoadam]

Its a last gen game. Maybe MS hyped it too much but it shouldn't be a surprise. It probably ends up getting a "remastered" version that will be done through smart delivery a year down the line.

For a last gen game running 4K60 its not bad. If you really like Halo you could probably play it on the One X and get a pretty good experience, it doesn't scream you need to upgrade to a series X for this.

 

[sinnergy]

That's because they are in direct sunlight. It shows the limitation of the GI solution they decided to use when its not in direct sunlight.
In all honesty the Switch version of Crysis Remastered has a more advanced realtime global lighting solution with SVOGI(Voxel GI) built into CryEngine 3.

SVOGI should be implemented at least for One X and series X before the ray tracing patch drops for the later.

 

[Mister Wolf]

SVOGI should be implemented at least for One X and series X before the ray tracing patch drops for the later.

Makes you wonder if this engine they spent this time and money creating even supports something like Voxel GI.

 

[longdi]

Agreed.
Here is that same video converted to 1000nits HDR. IMO worth a look for anyone that has a good 4k hdr display

This does look a lot more striking on my 1000nits display.

There are issues with Infinite, but the over-reactions have become concerned trolling.

Issues being
-flat lighting, which can be explain as hdr-sdr conversion and time of day with the lighting model they are using
-flat distant textures, imo streaming issues, Halo artwork was always more colorful WoW like
-343 needs more graphics engineers

But we have to remember, it is a much bigger world, i counted 9-10 AIs fighting every time, and this has to run 60fps on base Xbox One

 

[The Fartist]

Lighting is everything.

It sure is.

 

[Panajev2001a]

But we have to remember, it is a much bigger world, i counted 9-10 AIs fighting every time, and this has to run 60fps on base Xbox One

Is Xbox One holding XSX back then ?

 

[Panajev2001a]

Makes you wonder if this engine they spent this time and money creating even supports something like Voxel GI.

I hope so... else what will the RT update do when it is dynamic 4K on XSX (not just XOX... but on a console more than 2x as powerful).

 

[longdi]

Is Xbox One holding XSX back then ?

Phil already made it clear about cross-gen, always stated down, transparency and all.
In the past, 3rd parties are cross-gen.
I guess with Series X, first party are joining in the.. party.
At least with Gamepass, the cost of owning Series X is much cheaper, especially in the middle of a pandemic.

 

[GaviotaGrande]

He mentioned this briefly here, and more in the DF commentary, but he feels this is mostly due to GPU limitations in scenes with a lot of greenery.

I don't see a single scene in that gameplay demo with 'lot of greenery'. Few trees and flat looking, non-dynamic grass patches, that's it.

For reference, this is a lot of greenery (Witcher 3):

 

[Panajev2001a]

Phil already made it clear about cross-gen, always stated down, transparency and all.
In the past, 3rd parties are cross-gen.
I guess with Series X, first party are joining in the.. party.
At least with Gamepass, the cost of owning Series X is much cheaper, especially in the middle of a pandemic.

So you are now saying Phil made it clear that a cross generational approach would hold XSX back as you just stated in the previous post huh?

I seem to remember they said a cross generational approach would not and quite a few people running over each other to explain how simple it is to target multiple HW generations and maximise each console's potential too...

 

[longdi]

So you are now saying Phil made it clear that a cross generational approach would hold XSX back as you just stated in the previous post huh?

I seem to remember they said a cross generational approach would not and quite a few people running over each other to explain how simple it is to target multiple HW generations and maximise each console's potential too...

Infinite got a 4K/60 upgrade. Let's wait a few months to see the full game too.

 

[Zoro7]

The graphics are incredibly flat, borderline horrible for a console with 12 teraflops. However, it's Halo. This is still a day 1 game for me.

And this is why nothing will ever improve. Just like the Fifa games, people will still buy regardless of quality.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Infinite got a 4K/60 upgrade. Let's wait a few months to see the full game too.

What does this have anything to do with what you have stated so far?

"Oh this is the way it is because XSX is held back by Xbox One"

"Phil already admitted it would have been"

"Let's wait for E3... I mean let's wait"

Is a cross generational approach holding back XSX and if so where did Phil stated it was the case?

 

[Tulipanzo]

I don't see a single scene in that gameplay demo with 'lot of greenery'. Few trees and flat looking, non-dynamic grass patches, that's it.

For reference, this is a lot of greenery (Witcher 3):

Well, there seems to be a lot of vegetation, which is GPU heavy at that fps, apparently. I also agree I've seen way more impressive greenery elsewhere.

 

[longdi]

What does this have anything to do with what you have stated so far?

"Oh this is the way it is because XSX is held back by Xbox One"

"Phil already admitted it would have been"

"Let's wait for E3... I mean let's wait"

Is a cross generational approach holding back XSX and if so where did Phil stated it was the case?

I mean we should wait for more of the final game before passing judgement.
The flatness of the demo could be down to many factors that may not be in the final game
343i may need to hire more engineers perhaps?
Some games look good during early demos, but got downgraded in the final release.

That single level demo shown, has nothing to go against what Phil has spoken before.