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[Mrmartel]

I picture Eyes wide shut situations, with orgies, occult masses and the occasional murders of sex workers. But beyond that who knows

 

[Bob Coffee]

nanomachines son

 

[Minus_Me]

I picture Eyes wide shut situations, with orgies, occult masses and the occasional murders of sex workers. But beyond that who knows

Mandy was a junkie, she OD'd and nothing else.

 

[Oersted]

I agree completely. What I was trying to argue with my post is that considering this is true, it doesn't seem to far fetched to believe there could be one group that rises to power and thus has absolute power over the proceedings of the world.

There are people far more powerful than we will ever be. Larry Fink for example. But this is hardly a secret. Why is there a need for a secret organization?

 

[Mrmartel]

Mandy was a junkie, she OD'd and nothing else.

Yes Mr Pollack, btw you left your mask on my pillow

 

[FlyingSaucer]

'And what do you do?' he asked me one evening, as we were both leaning against the far end of the zinc bar, pressed close together by a festive crowd. He used the formal pronoun. In those days we all called one another by the familiar tu, even students and professors, even the clientele at Pilade’s. 'Tu—buy me a drink,' a student wearing a parka would say to the managing editor of an important newspaper. It was like Moscow in the days of young Shklovski. We were all Mayakovskis, not one Zhivago among us. Belbo could not avoid the required tu, but he used it with pointed scorn, suggesting that although he was responding to vulgarity with vulgarity, there was still an abyss between acting intimate and being intimate. I heard him say tu with real affection only a few times, only to a few people: Diotallevi, one or two women. He used the formal pronoun with people he respected but hadn’t known long. He addressed me formally the whole time we worked together, and I valued that.

'And what do you do?' he asked, with what I now know was friendliness.

'In real life or in this theater?' I said, nodding at our surroundings.

'In real life.'

'I study.'

'You mean you go to the university, or you study?'

'You may not believe this, but the two need not be mutually exclusive. I’m finishing a thesis on the Templars.'

'What an awful subject,' he said. 'I thought that was for lunatics.'

'No. I’m studying the real stuff. The documents of the trial. What do you know about the Templars, anyway?'

'I work for a publishing company. We deal with both lunatics and nonlunatics. After a while an editor can pick out the lunatics right away. If somebody brings up the Templars, he’s almost always a lunatic.'

'Don’t I know! Their name is legion. But not all lunatics talk about the Templars. How do you identify the others?'

'I’ll explain. By the way, what’s your name?'

'Casaubon.'

'Casaubon. Wasn’t he a character in Middlemarch?'

'I don’t know. There was also a Renaissance philologist by that name, but we’re not related.'

'The next round’s on me. Two more, Pilade. All right, then. There are four kinds of people in this world: cretins, fools, morons, and lunatics.'

'And that covers everybody?'

'Oh, yes, including us. Or at least me. If you take a good look, everybody fits into one of these categories. Each of us is sometimes a cretin, a fool, a moron, or a lunatic. A normal person is just a reasonable mix of these components, these four ideal types.'

'Idealtypen.'

'Very good. You know German?'

'Enough for bibliographies.'

'When I was in school, if you knew German, you never graduated. You just spent your life knowing German. Nowadays I think that happens with Chinese.'

'My German’s poor, so I’ll graduate. But let’s get back to your typology. What about geniuses? Einstein, for example?'

'A genius uses one component in a dazzling way, fueling it with the others.' He took a sip of his drink. 'Hi there, beautiful,' he said. 'Made that suicide attempt yet?'

'No,' the girl answered as she walked by. 'I’m in a collective now.'

'Good for you,' Belbo said. He turned back to me. 'Of course, there’s no reason one can’t have collective suicides, too.'

'Getting back to the lunatics.'

'Look, don’t take me too literally. I’m not trying to put the universe in order. I ‘m just saying what a lunatic is from the point of view of a publishing house. Mine is an ad-hoc definition.'

'All right. My round.'

'All right. Less ice, Pilade. Otherwise it gets into the bloodstream too fast. Now then: cretins. Cretins don’t even talk; they sort of slobber and stumble. You know, the guy who presses the ice cream cone against his forehead, or enters a revolving door the wrong way.'

'That’s not possible.'

'It is for a cretin. Cretins are of no interest to us: they never come to publishers’ offices. So let’s forget about them.'

'Let’s.'

'Being a fool is more complicated. It’s a form of social behavior. A fool is one who always talks outside his glass.'

'What do you mean?'

'Like this.' He pointed at the counter near his glass. 'He wants to talk about what’s in the glass, but somehow or other he misses. He’s the guy who puts his foot in his mouth. For example, he says how’s your lovely wife to someone whose wife has just left him.'

'Yes, I know a few of those.'

'Fools are in great demand, especially on social occasions. They embarrass everyone but provide material for conversation. In their positive form, they become diplomats. Talking outside the glass when someone else blunders helps to change the subject. But fools don’t interest us, either. They’re never creative, their talent is all second-hand, so they don’t submit manuscripts to publishers. Fools don’t claim that cats bark, but they talk about cats when everyone else is talking about dogs. They offend all the rules of conversation, and when they really offend, they’re magnificent. It’s a dying breed, the embodiment of all the bourgeois virtues. What they really need is a Verdurin salon or even a chez Guermantes. Do you students still read such things?'

'I do.'

'Well, a fool is a Joachim Murat reviewing his officers. He sees one from Martinique covered with medals. ‘Vous etes negre?’ Murat asks. ‘Oui, mon general!’ the man answers. And Murat says: ‘Bravo, bravo, continuez!’ And so on. You follow me? Forgive me, but tonight I’m celebrating a historic decision in my life. I’ve stopped drinking. Another round? Don’t answer, you’ll make me feel guilty. Pilade!'

'What about the morons?'

'Ah. Morons never do the wrong thing. They get their reasoning wrong. Like the fellow who says all dogs are pets and all dogs bark, and cats are pets, too, and therefore cats bark. Or that all Athenians are mortal, and all the citizens of Piraeus are mortal, so all the citizens of Piraeus are Athenians.'

'Which they are.'

'Yes, but only accidentally. Morons will occasionally say something that’s right, but they say it for the wrong reason.'

'You mean it’s okay to say something that’s wrong as long as the reason is right.'

'Of course. Why else go to the trouble of being a rational animal?'

'All great apes evolved from lower life forms, man evolved from lower life forms, therefore man is a great ape.'

'Not bad. In such statements you suspect that something’s wrong, but it takes work to show what and why. Morons are tricky. You can spot the fool right away (not to mention the cretin), but the moron reasons almost the way you do; the gap is infinitesimal. A moron is a master of paralogism. For an editor, it’s bad news. It can take him an eternity to identify a moron. Plenty of morons’ books are published, because they’re convincing at first glance. An editor is not required to weed out the morons. If the Academy of Sciences doesn’t do it, why should he?'

'Philosophers don’t either. Saint Anselm’s ontological argument is moronic, for example. God must exist because I ^can conceive Him as a being perfect in all ways, including existence. The saint confuses existence in thought with existence in reality.'

'True, but Gaunilon’s refutation is moronic, too. I can think of an island in the sea even if the island doesn’t exist. He confuses thinking of the possible with thinking of the necessary.'

'A duel between morons.'

'Exactly. And God loves every minute of it. He chose to be unthinkable only to prove that Anselm and Gaunilon were morons. What a sublime purpose for creation, or, rather, for that act by which God willed Himself to be: to unmask cosmic mo-ronism.'

'We’re surrounded by morons.'

'Everyone’s a moron—save me and thee. Or, rather—I wouldn’t want to offend—save thee.'

'Somehow I feel that Godel’s theorem has something to do with all this.'

'I wouldn’t know, I’m a cretin. Pilade!'

'My round.'

'We’ll split it. Epimenides the Cretan says all Cretans are liars. It must be true, because he’s a Cretan himself and knows his countrymen well.'

'That’s moronic thinking.'

'Saint Paul. Epistle to Titus. On the other hand, those who call Epimenides a liar have to think all Cretans aren’t, but Cretans don’t trust Cretans, therefore no Cretan calls Epimenides a liar.'

'Isn’t that moronic thinking?'

'You decide. I told you, they are hard to identify. Morons can even win the Nobel prize.'

'Hold on. Of those who don’t believe God created the world in seven days, some are not fundamentalists, but of those who do believe God created the world in seven days, some are. Therefore, of those who don’t believe God created the world in seven days, some are fundamentalists. How’s that?'

'My God—to use the mot juste—I wouldn’t know. A moron-ism or not?'

'It is, definitely, even if it were true. Violates one of the laws of syllogisms: universal conclusions cannot be drawn from two particulars.'

'And what if you were a moron?'

'I’d be in excellent, venerable company.'

'You’re right. And perhaps, in a logical system different from ours, our moronism is wisdom. The whole history of logic consists of attempts to define an acceptable notion of moronism. A task too immense. Every great thinker is someone else’s moron.'

'Thought as the coherent expression of moronism.'

'But what is moronism to one is incoherence to another.'

'Profound. It’s two o’clock, Pilade’s about to close, and we still haven’t got to the lunatics.'

'I’m getting there. A lunatic is easily recognized. He is a moron who doesn’t know the ropes. The moron proves his thesis; he has a logic, however twisted it may be. The lunatic, on the other hand, doesn’t concern himself at all with logic; he works by short circuits. For him, everything proves everything else. The lunatic is all id6e fixe, and whatever he comes across confirms his lunacy. You can tell him by the liberties he takes with common sense, by his flashes of inspiration, and by the fact that sooner or later he brings up the Templars.'

'Invariably?'

'There are lunatics who don’t bring up the Templars, but those who do are the most insidious. At first they seem normal, then all of a sudden...'He was about to order another whiskey, but changed his mind and asked for the check. 'Speaking of the Templars, the other day some character left me a manuscript on the subject. A lunatic, but with a human face. The book starts reasonably enough. Would you like to see it?'

'I’d be glad to. Maybe there’s something I can use.'

'I doubt that very much. But drop in if you have a spare half hour. Number 1, Via Sincere Renato. The visit will be of more benefit to me than to you. You can tell me whether the book has any merit.'

'What makes you trust me?'

'Who says I trust you? But if you come, I’ll trust you. I trust curiosity.'

A student rushed in, face twisted in anger. 'Comrades! There are fascists along the canal with chains!'

'Let’s get them,' said the fellow with the Tartar mustache who had threatened me over Krupskaya. 'Come on, comrades!' And they all left.

'What do you want to do?' I asked, feeling guilty. 'Should we go along?'

'No,' Belbo said. 'Pilade sets these things up to clear the place out. For my first night on the wagon, I feel pretty high. Must be the cold-turkey effect. Everything I’ve said to you so far is false. Good night, Casaubon.'

.

Of course secret societies rule the world.
Of course secret societies do not rule the world.
Both propositions are true.

 

[Oersted]

I picture Eyes wide shut situations, with orgies, occult masses and the occasional murders of sex workers. But beyond that who knows

Orgies aren't also a particular secret

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3727565

 

[LCGeek]

I think if you confronted the reality of a secret society it would lose a lot of the "shadowy mastermind" assumptions we have about them. Like, it's basically just a powerful corporation or NGO that didn't advertise its existence.

This goes too far like minds meet and when business is involved humans have shown no matter the time period the brightest, the worst, and even the best can fall susceptible to the temporation to abuse power or their position. We have exactly that the difference most people refuse to acknowledge the impact of pro business mindsets and some of the goals they have. How about the two faced hypocrisy of politicans preaching american sovereignty/any nation while doing everything they to globalize the world or empower corporations. Such labels empower people to become something they really aren't.

Even if the top rich people got together and made plans to steer the world in certain directions, they wouldn't have the omnipotence that we assume when we hear these stories. Even a secret cabal of billionaire masterminds can't really manipulate all the moving parts of the world in a way that we assume when we hear about a "secret society".

Look at publically acknowledged organizations... Even Microsoft can't throw money and influence at society and get people to use the Surface or Windows Phone. Even America couldnt use its military to redefine Iraq as a western style state.

That's not the point some people have when talking about their theories. How about we just talk about how it's bad for some ogranization to have too much power. Corporations are proof of what happens when you don't give them restrictions. I loved how rachel maddow showed how one big oil company tried buying out elections only to fail. The problem is they aren't failing half as much as some of us would think and their ideas goals are what the majority of our law makers spend time on instead of what really matters.

A secret society would be another one of these flawed and imperfect organizations, struggling against the randomness of human affairs in order to enact their will. So take the mystery out of the concept: That won't exist in that way. A real secret society wouldn't be all that "sexy". Even a group of ultra rich men with a plan can only do so much.

As flawed as it would be organized committed people are inherently going to accomplism more than societies who are stuck in their lives to notice the bigger things being done by such organizations. I'm more like you though most of these societies aren't all that secretive and some are overt/hiding in plain sight, vs being totally unknown and in the dark.

 

[DigitalRicket]

I think believing in secret societies that rule the world is giving humanity and mankind too much credit. People just don't want to believe that their governments are run by men and women who really don't know what they're doing.

 

[akira28]

yes.

nothing special about it, just when you organize to keep the best resources for your own aims, and cooperate with others in positions of power who do the same thing, it's amazing how things get done.

and they aren't exactly transparent about it, or anything.

edit: while you imagine orgies, I'm imagining board meetings and tacit agreements.

 

[Who]

There are people far more powerful than we will ever be. Larry Fink for example. But this is hardly a secret. Why is there a need for a secret organization?

Whats secret about it as the so many Americans are under the assumption that their elected officials are the one that make the decisions when the real powers at hand are nameless.

Politicians are nothing more than dispensable mouth-pieces that act as pawns for the truly responsible, whom will never face scrutiny because they operate in the shadows

 

[Disgraced]

I picture Eyes wide shut situations, with orgies, occult masses and the occasional murders of sex workers. But beyond that who knows

When you put it that way, it makes me think of the SCP Foundation. Specifically 231. Lots of nasty occult sex evildoings implied with that one there.

 

[Scrooged]

Many like to explain conspiracy theorists’ “outlandish” beliefs by saying something to the effect of: “Some people just can’t accept that bad things happen in the world so they comfort themselves by making themselves believe that there is a single evil force causing all this to happen.” A simple counter to that is: “Some people just can’t accept that the powers at hand have no interest in our well being so they comfort themselves by making themselves believe that bad things are isolated events that just happen.”

Anyways. Thanks for Reading.

You're still assuming X exists. A proper counter would be good evidence that X exists. The argument you're making boils down to a type of faith that these organizations exist and have the power you say they have.

To show how hollow that 'counter' is, consider this equivalent argument.

"Some people just can't accept that bad things happen in the world and there is no supernatural force behind the scenes." A simple counter to that is: "Some people just can't accept that there is a God that loves them and wants to save their soul and is testing people by letting bad things happen in the world."

 

[speculawyer]

Of course . . . the Pentaverate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKRFlNryaWw

 

[Screaming Meat]

There are small groups of people who run the world. They meet in secret. They pull the strings. They lie to our faces everyday.

They are called governments.

 

[Who]

You're still assuming X exists. A proper counter would be good evidence that X exists. The argument you're making boils down to a type of faith that these organizations exist and have the power you say they have.

To show how hollow that 'counter' is, consider this equivalent argument.

"Some people just can't accept that bad things happen in the world and there is no supernatural force behind the scenes." A simple counter to that is: "Some people just can't accept that there is a God that loves them and wants to save their soul and is testing people by letting bad things happen in the world."

Both parties are guilty of assumptions. I did my best to illustrate why I assume the way I do. Having an assumption that is simply more mainstream than the other doesn't exempt you from having to defend it.

 

[Oersted]

Whats secret about it as the so many Americans are under the assumption that their elected officials are the one that make the decisions when the real powers at hand are nameless.

Politicians are nothing more than dispensable mouth-pieces that act as pawns for the truly responsible, whom will never face scrutiny because they operate in the shadows

Which just means we need to push them more into the spotlight. No need for mysticism.

 

[Screaming Meat]

Whats secret about it as the so many Americans are under the assumption that their elected officials are the one that make the decisions when the real powers at hand are nameless.

Politicians are nothing more than dispensable mouth-pieces that act as pawns for the truly responsible, whom will never face scrutiny because they operate in the shadows

Who are you referring to here?

 

[Disgraced]

I think believing in secret societies that rule the world is giving humanity and mankind too much credit. People just don't want to believe that their governments are run by men and women who really don't know what they're doing.

What if it's a bit of both? What if there is a secret society trying to pull strings from behind the scenes but they're also incompetent shit? In over their heads on a global scale, trying to bite off a whole world's worth of inedibility--trying to play god. What then?

Quite the conundrum, that'd be.

 

[Randam]

they do.

but pssst..

 

[richiek]

 

[Who]

Which just means we need to push them more into the spotlight. No need for mysticism.

Exactly. Instead all political threads of GAF seem to boil down to everyone just blaming the Republicans and defending Obama instead of placing blame on the system as a whole. Its completely ineffective and only adds fuel to the fire that powers the machine.

Its like the first boss in Chrono Trigger. If you attack anything but its head it will be impossible to defeat.

Spoiler

Yeah I went there

I think believing in secret societies that rule the world is giving humanity and mankind too much credit. People just don't want to believe that their governments are run by men and women who really don't know what they're doing.

I think one of the fallacies we have when looking at our country is mistaking evil intent for gross incompetence. Its a shield they hide behind: "We can't get anything done!" But when it comes to things that actually benefit the elite, they execute with laser precision.

 

[JumpJeff84]

I believe that Secret Santas rule the world.

THINK ABOUT IT MAN

 

[Minus_Me]

I think you would enjoy reading up on Vladislav Surkov.

 

[Screaming Meat]

What if it's a bit of both? What if there is a secret society trying to pull strings from behind the scenes but they're also incompetent shit? In over their heads on a global scale, trying to bite off a whole world's worth of inedibility--trying to play god. What then?

Quite the conundrum, that'd be.

What if there were in fact more than one of these incompetent groups of powerful figures, all constantly sabotaging each other's plans in their bid for global conquest? What would the fallout of their power struggles be?

 

[Orayn]

Some people just can’t accept that the powers at hand have no interest in our well being so they comfort themselves by making themselves believe that bad things are isolated events that just happen.

It's pretty easy for bad things to be uncorrelated events caused by individuals acting for selfish or irrational reasons. That's just entropy.

A super-secret, super-powerful cabal, however, is actually very delicate because it requires an exponentially large number of people to never reveal its existence. The bigger and more powerful, the easier it is for the whole thing to collapse because of whistle-blowers. Arguing that this conspiracy must be so powerful that they've managed to convince people that true claims about their existence are just nonsensical conspiracy theories is quickly treading into the realm of non-falsifiable beliefs, IMO, because it reinforces the idea of said conspiracy in a very circular way. "Evidence" for the conspiracy isn't believed because the conspiracy is just that powerful, lack of evidence becomes evidence of a masterful coverup, etc.

At a certain point it becomes a situation where all the special rules you apply could just as easily be explained by something spontaneous and disordered, like fervent religious believers going to great lengths to explain how God actually guided evolution in a way that just happens to look just like the actual (non-God-influenced) course of events.

I think Hanlon's razor still wins out: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

 

[poopninjamvc3mk]

he looks cool. i wish i was him

Doesn't take much just don't be a coward and smoke crack

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsfnuyyjaB0

 

[WhiskerFrisker]

I read the whole thing and I enjoyed it. Nice write up op. I honestly do think that such a thing does exists. It is a sad thing to think about, if it were true. 8 billion people live on the Earth, and we're being controlled by whatever number of powerful people. How would one even arrive at such a position? Where would they meet? So many questions to this.

 

[LCGeek]

What if there were in fact more than one of these incompetent groups of powerful figures, all constantly sabotaging each other's plans in their bid for global conquest? What would the fallout of their power struggles be?

That is basically what we have now between the NWO and the OWO. If anything I love nature for this reason our own demons sabotage these plans more than any direct failure of planning or executing of a plan.

 

[Chariot]

I think if you confronted the reality of a secret society it would lose a lot of the "shadowy mastermind" assumptions we have about them. Like, it's basically just a powerful corporation or NGO that didn't advertise its existence.

Even if the top rich people got together and made plans to steer the world in certain directions, they wouldn't have the omnipotence that we assume when we hear these stories. Even a secret cabal of billionaire masterminds can't really manipulate all the moving parts of the world in a way that we assume when we hear about a "secret society".

Look at publically acknowledged organizations... Even Microsoft can't throw money and influence at society and get people to use the Surface or Windows Phone. Even America couldnt use its military to redefine Iraq as a western style state.

A secret society would be another one of these flawed and imperfect organizations, struggling against the randomness of human affairs in order to enact their will. So take the mystery out of the concept: That won't exist in that way. A real secret society wouldn't be all that "sexy". Even a group of ultra rich men with a plan can only do so much.

Agreeing with this post.
There are hundreds, thousands of powerful visible and invisible powers that move the world. But even with a lot of influence they are made off humans with all the perks and flaws and thus I don't believe that there is THE conspiracy.

 

[Disgraced]

What if there were in fact more than one of these incompetent groups of powerful figures, all constantly sabotaging each other's plans in their bid for global conquest? What would the fallout of their power struggles be?

Yo, like I said, man, read 100 Bullets.

 

[HK-47]

"The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic. The truth is, that it is not the Jewish banking conspiracy or the grey aliens or the 12 foot reptiloids from another dimension that are in control. The truth is more frightening, nobody is in control. The world is rudderless."

Alan Moore

 

[Screaming Meat]

I think you would enjoy reading up on Vladislav Surkov.

"Surkov, you Magnificent Bastard; I read your short stories!"

 

[Disgraced]

"The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic. The truth is, that it is not the Jewish banking conspiracy or the grey aliens or the 12 foot reptiloids from another dimension that are in control. The truth is more frightening, nobody is in control. The world is rudderless."

Alan Moore

I'm beginning to hate this quote. I mean, I love it. I think it's a fantastic quote, and I think he's right. But its late insertion here seems totally dismissive of the progress we've made in this discussion, so like, c'mon man. Don't do that. Y'know?

 

[HK-47]

What if there were in fact more than one of these incompetent groups of powerful figures, all constantly sabotaging each other's plans in their bid for global conquest? What would the fallout of their power struggles be?

*looks out the window*

Eh

 

[The Incarnation]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/403303/The-Revelations-of-an-Elite-Family-Insider-2005#scribd

Always loved reading this and just hoping it was true. Maybe?

More than you know.

 

[Screaming Meat]

That is basically what we have now between the NWO and the OWO. If anything I love nature for this reason our own demons sabotage these plans more than any direct failure of planning or executing of a plan.

Yo, like I said, man, read 100 Bullets.

*looks out the window*

Eh

They're out there, man; small groups of powerful people that control vast interests, all vying for power and global domination. Again, they're called governments.

"The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic. The truth is, that it is not the Jewish banking conspiracy or the grey aliens or the 12 foot reptiloids from another dimension that are in control. The truth is more frightening, nobody is in control. The world is rudderless."

Alan Moore

Exactly.

 

[LCGeek]

They're out there, man; small groups of powerful people that control vast interests, all vying for power and global domination. Again, they're called governments.

I've had two personal experience one with scientologist and satanist that show me the problem with that. Governments and corporations act as shields and swords for each other when it matters. Not disagreeing with your notion just exposing my interpertation of it.

 

[Minus_Me]

"Surkov, you Magnificent Bastard; I read your short stories!"

I have to admit I'm not sure how I should read this post. Do you mean: Ya the man is interesting or the man's just a joke?

 

[Chariot]

They're out there, man; small groups of powerful people that control vast interests, all vying for power and global domination. Again, they're called governments.

But there is more out there. Not even hidden, everyone knows that lobbyists exists and that they have a certain influence.

 

[Screaming Meat]

I have to admit I'm not sure how I should read this post. Do you mean: Ya the man is interesting or the man's just a joke?

Referencing a line from Patton, and the fact that Surkov writes short stories that usually (purposely) give insight into his political tactics and ideas. He's a very interesting dude.

But there is more out there. Not even hidden, everyone knows that lobbyists exists and that they have a certain influence.

Yup. Then there are global conglomerates and corporations all doing the same thing. All of these small groups of powerful people are scratching and stabbing each other in the back.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

SERN and the Committee of 300.

 

[Who]

But there is more out there. Not even hidden, everyone knows that lobbyists exists and that they have a certain influence.

Sure but can we put a face to a name?

The military industrial complex most certainly had a huge impact on us going to war in the Middle East, but whos to blame? Just Dick Cheney? Well hes out of "power" now, so what about the guys in MIC. Nobody knows. All we can ever do is blame politicians who are just, as i said before, disposable mouth pieces for the ones that seemingly pull the strings.

 

[Scrooged]

Both parties are guilty of assumptions. I did my best to illustrate why I assume the way I do. Having an assumption that is simply more mainstream than the other doesn't exempt you from having to defend it.

That's not how it works though. It's not up to us to prove something doesn't exist.

 

[Minus_Me]

Referencing a line from Patton, and the fact that Surkov writes short stories that usually (purposely) gives insight into his political tactics and ideas. He's a very interesting.

Oh right the Rommel line! Nice reference.

 

[Disgraced]

They're out there, man; small groups of powerful people that control vast interests, all vying for power and global domination. Again, they're called governments.

I've had two personal experience one with scientologist and satanist that show me the problem with that. Governments and corporations act as shields and swords for each other when it matters. Not disagreeing with your notion just exposing my interpertation of it.

So, you guys do or don't think that there's a possibility of a third rudder, or layer, or level of the equation that tries to act in the shadows? Something besides the sword and shield. And no, not like the CIA. Something truly mostly sort of secret?

 

[Oersted]

Exactly. Instead all political threads of GAF seem to boil down to everyone just blaming the Republicans instead of the system as a whole. Its completely ineffective and only adds fuel to the fire that powers the machine.

Its like the first boss in Chrono Trigger. If you attack anything but its head it will be impossible to defeat.

Spoiler

Yeah I went there

Most systems in the western hemisphere are built around a mixture out of capitalism and republics with democratic elements. It is only natural that those who control lobbies, money etc are running the show. Most notorious example is the NRA. And it probably will only get worse, with marketing people already vastly outnumbering journalists.
Again, these are all not secrets. IMF, NRA, BAE Systems, Blackrock, Microsoft, Facebook, Nestle, Google... all known. Or can be easily known.
What we need is public awareness. No secrecy, no Illuminati, no mystic nonsense.
White hetero males( with now some chinese in between) run the world. Its our system, our culture.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

His name is Jesus

 

[Orayn]

That's not how it works though. It's not up to us to prove something doesn't exist.

We're playing by special conspiracy rules, Scrooged. The only possible outcomes are the conspiracy being true, or every possible alternative being false.

 

[Chariot]

Sure but can we put a face to a name?

The military industrial complex most certainly had a huge impact on us going to war in the Middle East, but whos to blame? Just Dick Cheney? Well hes out of "power" now, so what about the guys in MIC. Nobody knows. All we can ever do is blame politicians who are just, as i said before, disposable mouth pieces for the ones that seemingly pull the strings.

I honestly don't know, but we could probably if we would bother to watch them. Lobbyists aren't usually travelling through shadows or do the SEELE thing - they go to official meetings, right?