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[Screaming Meat]

So, you guys do or don't think that there's a possibility of a third rudder, or layer, or level of the equation that tries to act in the shadows? Something besides the sword and shield. And no, not like the CIA. Something truly mostly sort of secret?

Gimme an example.

 

[Who]

That's not how it works though. It's not up to us to prove something doesn't exist.

Did you read my OP?

I did my best and try to give credence to the idea of such a force existing. There are people that believe we live in a representative republic in America. I don't believe such a thing exists, do you?

 

[m_shortpants]

It may not be some shady organization like the illuminati, but there are definitely groups of people with massive influence. Take the Bilderberg Group. Hugely influential people meeting privately. There's nothing wrong with that, but I also think it would be naive to think they're meeting to discuss how to give their wealth and power to the common man/woman.

 

[Orayn]

Did you read my OP?

I did my best and try to give credence to the idea of such a force existing. There are people that believe we live in a representative republic. I don't believe such a thing exists, do you?

The idea that we live in a representative republic is falsifiable, and plenty of things would falsify it. I'm not sure I the same can be said about the rest of the stuff in your OP.

 

[Shy]

also OP. you should watch some videos by robert anton wilson, as he shows alot of conspiracies aren't real.
you shoud watch R.A.W. in general, as he's a very interesting man.

 

[Screaming Meat]

also OP. you should watch some videos by robert anton wilson, as he shows alot of conspiracies aren't real.
you shoud watch R.A.W. in general, as he's a very interesting man.

Don't forget the Illuminatus! Trilogy.

Fnord.

 

[LCGeek]

So, you guys do or don't think that there's a possibility of a third rudder, or layer, or level of the equation that tries to act in the shadows? Something besides the sword and shield. And no, not like the CIA. Something truly mostly sort of secret?

There is but it's not merely another layer it's many layers and some people within groups only care to do their job on one aspect, it's very compartmentalized.

Anything on the surface is just another outlet for recruit, promote, or excute things. The big planning is always in the dark and rarely revealed until things are in motion and can't be stopped. CIA isn't even the deepest part of what we know about american black ops, that's nsa to me all cia does is drug run, stir up shit, and fail invasions after building a reasonable movement behind them. There is no secret now that that government has counter intelligence program to infiltrate groups and delegitimatize in that way, tea party and truthers are proof of that There is no secret that business and politics will hire trolls and shills for their causes. This is insanely dangerous for our culture to shrug it off while complaining about half the problems we do.

 

[vpance]

I don't even think they're secret anymore. It's just that no one cares that much.

 

[DiscoJer]

Not secret societies, but basically oligarchs.

 

[Oersted]

I don't even think they're secret anymore. It's just that no one cares that much.

Not secret societies, but basically oligarchs.

Yes and yes.

 

[akira28]

There is but it's not merely another layer it's many layers and some people within groups only care to do their job on one aspect, it's very compartmentalized.

Anything on the surface is just another outlet for recruit, promote, or excute things. The big planning is always in the dark and rarely revealed until things are in motion and can't be stopped. CIA isn't even the deepest part of what we know about american black ops, that's nsa to me all cia does is drug run, stir up shit, and fail invasions after building a reasonable movement behind them. There is no secret now that that government has counter intelligence program to infiltrate groups and delegitimatize in that way, tea party and truthers are proof of that There is no secret that business and politics will hire trolls and shills for their causes. This is insanely dangerous for our culture to shrug it off while complaining about half the problems we do.

it's only natural, natural forces, natural human behaviour, like Woodrow said.

 

[Who]

I don't even think they're secret anymore. It's just that no one cares that much.

I agree with this. My problem is that everybody seems to know this but when it comes election time they still defend their shiny piece of shit candidate as if it really matters. Its like a fucking game we play. Why.

 

[Winterfang]

I think the people that believe things like that, are often none religious people that still want to believe in outlandish things to make sense of the word will live in.

 

[LCGeek]

it's only natural, natural forces, like Woodrow said.

lmao... most us presidents are highly suspect no matter what message they are giving me.

I prefer eisenhower message about the military indsutrial complex or various presidents who had concerns about banking institutions and what would happen to this country if they ever got power they wanted.

Peeing is natural too but there is a reason it's discourage from being done in public. boys will be boys and all that jazz but those sentiments are a nasty way of enabling us to be the worst we can be at times.

 

[Who]

I think the people that believe things like that, are often none religious people that still want to believe in outlandish things to make sense of the word will live in.

What about my reasoning do you disagree with? I don't claim to believe anything outlandish, its all based on facts and reasoning.

Do you alternatively believe that we live in a representative republic in which our voices are heard and where real change can be effected? Because I find that belief outlandish as hell.

 

[Orayn]

I think the people that believe things like that, are often none religious people that still want to believe in outlandish things to make sense of the word will live in.

They fill a similar psychological need. Everyone likes to feel that they understand how life, the universe, and everything works. For a lot of people, it's uncomfortable to think that it's a chaotic, tangled mess with no universal force or principle controlling it other than the laws of physics.

 

[ThatStupidLion]

it's not really a secret society that exists...but a nameless mentality that has developed over years and years.

 

[Skyzard]

How is believing in a conspiracy more comforting than believing an official narrative :S That is some twisted logic.

Each government has the potential to hide secrets from the public.
Powerful agencies and companies with political ties may have unfortunate influences.
Money, power and fear are strong motivators.

 

[Disgraced]

Gimme an example.

Touché, touché.

I'm just getting at the basic idea of the Illuminati, really. Kind of like the lobbyists we're talking about here, but something like shadow lobbyists, if that makes sense. My example would be a rough combo of what we're already getting at here, the possibility of shadow corporations sending money here and there, subtly influencing opinions through investments. Not the cliched subliminal messaging, but by pushing power towards objects of their concern, creating a "shadow" sphere of influence, if you will. With two hitches: one--a possibility of them having their own enforcing and physical ability to influence alongside the backroom. Their own "shadow" military, seamlessly blending in with things like standard enforcement and the CIA. Men in black. And two--the possibility of dabbling or experimentation with mysticism. With a wildly varying success rate on this end.

Do you think there's a possibility of this layer's existence to the system?

There is but it's not merely another layer it's many layers and some people within groups only care to do their job on one aspect, it's very compartmentalized.

Anything on the surface is just another outlet for recruit, promote, or excute things. The big planning is always in the dark and rarely revealed until things are in motion and can't be stopped. CIA isn't even the deepest part of what we know about american black ops, that's nsa to me all cia does is drug run, stir up shit, and fail invasions after building a reasonable movement behind them. There is no secret now that that government has counter intelligence program to infiltrate groups and delegitimatize in that way, tea party and truthers are proof of that There is no secret that business and politics will hire trolls and shills for their causes. This is insanely dangerous for our culture to shrug it off while complaining about half the problems we do.

I can see that.

I don't even think they're secret anymore. It's just that no one cares that much.

That's probably it, dude.

 

[UrokeJoe]

Now that they have been outed we can talk about what we need to do squirrel!

 

[Orayn]

What about my reasoning do you disagree with? I don't claim to believe anything outlandish, its all based on facts and reasoning.

Do you alternatively believe that we live in a representative republic in which our voices are heard and where real change can be effected? Because I find that belief outlandish as hell.

Where you go wrong is leaping from "we live in a system where it's very hard for an individual to cause a major change" to "there is a global conspiracy pulling every imaginable string." That's a huge gap, though you obviously expended a lot of effort trying to make it seem smaller.

 

[Who]

How is believing in a conspiracy more comforting than believing the official narrative :S

Each government has the potential to hide secrets from the public.
Powerful agencies and companies with political ties may have unfortunate influences.
Money, power and fear are strong motivators.

Right? I really dont get that "psychological explanation"... one is much more comforting than the other in my opinion.

My beliefs have me startled and put me at awe, as opposed to being the little Republican "America is great!" child I grew up as.

 

[Screaming Meat]

I view this whole 'secret society in charge of the world' deal much like I do God.

I don't believe in either. Both comfort people. Neither can be disproven, or seen, or tasted, or touched; so they'll always be there for the believers. They make people who believe in them feel special, as if they have are privy to some knowledge that others are not. They give believers a sense that things are under control, whether positively or negatively. They both drive their believers to convert the non-believers/sheeple.

Conspiracy Theories are a modern, syncretic, gnostic religion. I don't think it's a coincidence that many Conspiracy Theorists are also religious. It's almost like a new larval evolution of Christianity.

 

[Scrooged]

Did you read my OP?

I did my best and try to give credence to the idea of such a force existing. There are people that believe we live in a representative republic in America. I don't believe such a thing exists, do you?

I appreciate your enthusiasm on the subject, but most of your points are guesses on top of hunches on top of an underlying "what if..." scenario. This is a problem with most conspiracy arguments. You start with a a conclusion and then pick the evidence that you think supports the conclusion.

Yes, there are powerful people in the world that have influence over certain things. Corrupt governments take advantage of their people. No one would deny this. But to go a step further and say that there is a shadow organization that ultimately controls all governments...it's just a bald face assertion. Corporations and governments having their own agendas does not in any way necessitate the existence of a higher level actor feeding them instructions.

 

[Dresden]

It's almost like a new larval evolution of Christianity.

PentaGod?

 

[IDKAboutThat]

The evil rich people that control the world aren't all in a club, they all operate for their own selfish reasons entirely separate from each other.

 

[Orayn]

Right? I really dont get that "psychological explanation"... one is much more comforting than the other in my opinion.

My beliefs have me startled and put me at awe, as opposed to being the little Republican "America is great!" child I grew up as.

People find it comforting because it allows them to put themselves in a privileged group of who can see the true nature of things, and everyone else is just a sheep. Again, like religion, this can have some uncomfortable implications, like believing in an all-loving God who still condemns people to an eternity of torment in hell. In the end, however, just thinking that you've finally have it figured out for real can provide peace of mind and validation.

 

[Who]

Where you go wrong is leaping from "we live in a system where it's very hard for an individual to cause a major change" to "there is a global conspiracy pulling every imaginable string." That's a huge gap, though you obviously expended a lot of effort trying to make it seem smaller.

I do think its possible, given the current landscape, that a small group of men could rise up to power and have control over damn near every aspect of our society, yes. Do i claim to believe that outright? Nah. Im wise enough to know I dont know anything. I outlined my reasoning to that possibility in my OP. Care to give me any examples where my scenario is flawed? Id love to have a conversation.

 

[Mrmartel]

I don't even think they're secret anymore. It's just that no one cares that much.

Ya I think if some of the practices (up to you whether you consider them depraved or not) that the elite's did were exposed to the general public in decades and centuries past. Well there would be some heads rolling and purifying by fire. Nowadays tho, the general public doesn't care or does the same things. Putting on masks/animal heads and f-king is just another Saturday night at Windsor Castle.

 

[Screaming Meat]

PentaGod?

Wow. That's got Section 8 written all over it.

 

[Orayn]

I do think its possible, given the current landscape, that a small group of men could rise up to power and have control over damn near every aspect of our society, yes. Do i claim to believe that outright? Nah. Im wise enough to know I dont know anything. I outlined my reasoning to that possibility in my OP. Care to give me any examples where my scenario is flawed? Id love to have a conversation.

I think you have a few decent insights but ultimately fall into circular reasoning. See my first post in the thread.

Also, I don't think a conversation would really do much good. My presence in the thread has mostly been for other people to read, despite the fact that I'm replying to and talking about you.

 

[UrokeJoe]

The evil rich people that control the world aren't all in a club, they all operate for their own selfish reasons entirely separate from each other.

Not entirely, because some other evil rich bitch got to slap them down! Mess up their couch and shit with mud.

So there is a hierarchy.

 

[Skyzard]

People find it comforting because it allows them to put themselves in a privileged group of who can see the true nature of things, and everyone else is just a sheep. Again, like religion, this can have some uncomfortable implications, like believing in an all-loving God who still condemns people to an eternity of torment in hell. In the end, however, just thinking that you've finally have it figured out for real can provide peace of mind and validation.

The information isn't comforting. The "privilege" puts them at odds with the rest of society.

Seems like reverse logic and hypocrisy.


Some people may push theories in a way that makes them seem all-knowing. That doesn't mean much. You'll get people who do that with anything.
Really poor quote imo.

 

[Who]

People find it comforting because it allows them to put themselves in a privileged group of who can see the true nature of things, and everyone else is just a sheep. Again, like religion, this can have some uncomfortable implications, like believing in an all-loving God who still condemns people to an eternity of torment in hell. In the end, however, just thinking that you've finally have it figured out for real can provide peace of mind and validation.

Ugh.

You are intent on attacking my character and grouping me into the group of "conspiracy theorists" instead of addressing my reasoning. Every belief in the fucking world leads to some level of entitlement. You don't believe in God? You just put yourself in a privileged group as a way of comforting with the realities of our world. You do believe in God? Same thing. Do you Believe in science? All you're doing is coping by associating with a group who can see the true nature of things.

Do you see how ridiculous that is?

 

[Screaming Meat]

I'm just getting at the basic idea of the Illuminati, really. Kind of like the lobbyists we're talking about here, but something like shadow lobbyists, if that makes sense. My example would be a rough combo of what we're already getting at here, the possibility of shadow corporations sending money here and there, subtly influencing opinions through investments. Not the cliched subliminal messaging, but by pushing power towards objects of their concern, creating a "shadow" sphere of influence, if you will. With two hitches: one--a possibility of them having their own enforcing and physical ability to influence alongside the backroom. Their own "shadow" military, seamlessly blending in with things like standard enforcement and the CIA. Men in black. And two--the possibility of dabbling or experimentation with mysticism. With a wildly varying success rate on this end.

Do you think there's a possibility of this layer's existence to the system?

Yes, but not in the romantic way you're describing it nor with the added mysticism and sleeper agents. It's much more mundane.

The problem with disproving conspiracies is, there have been conspiracies in the past. Obviously things happen behind closed doors. Obviously powerful people try to use their power to influence things. That's not really the kind of conspiracy the op is getting at. He's talking about a secret cabal working together with a singular purpose, which I don't believe.

The information isn't comforting. The "privilege" puts them at odds with the rest of society.

Seems like reverse logic and hypocrisy.

The less people know about it, the more special the information. Converting people to it also has it's rewards.

Being the outcast, the one sane person, the underdog; it's a very romantic notion. Plus, if you are right, you get to say: "I told you so".

You can't see the appeal in that?

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

I think it's not so much the societies are secret, it's that the intentions are hidden.
In each state there is probably one single person that owns it, and runs it. That person directs the government leaders on what to do, and what to tell the media. This way no one knows who that one person is or what their intentions actually are (Makin' that Money).

North Carolina's one man show is James Arthur "Art" Pope.
Who is he you ask?

• Budget Director for North Carolina Governor Pat McCrory (Then quickly resigned after he cut out help for the poor)
• CEO and board chairman of Variety Wholesalers (millions of moneys from daddy)
• President and Chairman of the John William Pope Foundation
• Co-founded the Libertarian Party of North Carolina
• Appointed to the board of directors for Golden LEAF (To push cigarette sales)
• Founding member of the NC Coalition for Lobbying & Government Reform
• Co-founded Real Jobs NC (The organization that ran attack ads against 20 state
  Democratic legislators in the North Carolina 2010 general elections) (Pope provided it with an initial $200,000 donation.)
• Played an active role in the 2010 redistricting of NC's electoral map as a "pro bono" legal adviser during the process. The redistricting effort shifting the state's house delegation from 7-6 Democratic to 9-4 in favor of Republicans.
• Served as a member of the Electoral College in 2012, casting one of North Carolina's electoral votes for Mitt Romney.
• Appointed to serve on the North Carolina State Goals and Policy Board from 1985-1989 and served on the North Carolina Capital Planning Commission.
• Supports the Koch Brothers-backed Americans for Prosperity, of whose board he is a member.
• Co-founded the John Locke Foundation
• Co-founded the John William Pope Center for Higher Education Policy.
• Director of the Americans for Prosperity Super PAC

Most of these foundations are evil bullshit republican ventures designed to give him republican control of the state. So how did he get to basically drive the state into the ground and turn it into a complete and utter pile of steaming shit? Well, his daddy John W. Pope was a super rich bastard that gave him everything he wanted.


So there you go super secret society conspirators, I've given you a glimpse into the path that leads you down the rabbit hole. It goes much further than this I'm sure, but you only need to go far enough to realize who your enemies and masters are.

 

[……forgetit]

No, what would be the point?

 

[UrokeJoe]

No, what would be the point?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDbpzjbXUZI

 

[Disgraced]

The information isn't comforting. The "privilege" puts them at odds with the rest of society.

Seems like reverse logic and hypocrisy.

But does it put them at odds? Do we know statistically how many people believe in the possibility of a world manipulating society? If someone could post and cite a study or something, that'd be radical.

Yes, but not in the romantic way you're describing it nor with the added mysticism and sleeper agents. It's much more mundane.

The problem with disproving conspiracies is, there have been conspiracies in the past. Obviously things happen behind closed doors. Obviously powerful people try to use their power to influence things. That's not really the kind of conspiracy the op is getting at. He's talking about a secret cabal working together with a singular purpose, which I don't believe.

Gotcha.

 

[Orayn]

Ugh.

You are intent on attacking my character and grouping me into the group of "conspiracy theorist" instead of addressing my reasoning. Every belief in the fucking world leads to some level of entitlement. You don't believe in God? You just put yourself in a privileged group as a way of comforting with the realities of our world. You do believe in God? Same thing. Do you Believe in science? All you're doing is coping by associating with a group who can see the true nature of things.

Do you see how ridiculous that supposition is?

You seem way more reasonable than most of the people I was describing, I didn't mean to put you into that bucket directly. Sorry if it came off that way.

Also, no, science is qualitatively different from dogmatic beliefs because it's a self-correcting process that doesn't claim anything with absolute certainty. It's not perfect and is still subject to certain biases that make long-standing ideas harder to challenge than they should be, but its overall methodology makes it a better barometer for "truth" and "reality" than most of the alternatives. It's not just another belief system because we can use it to make and do things that don't require belief in any way, shape or form.

 

[Kieli]

Do you mean the Illuminati, OP?

 

[DonasaurusRex]

The UN isn't all that secret but meh, there are secret societies out there ...aren't the Bush's in one the Skulls, that kind of stuff. Interesting read, now lets all go watch you tube of politicians and count how many times they say New World Order.

nothing is scarier than an all powerful government...

 

[vpance]

Ya I think if some of the practices (up to you whether you consider them depraved or not) that the elite's did were exposed to the general public in decades and centuries past. Well there would be some heads rolling and purifying by fire. Nowadays tho, the general public doesn't care or does the same things. Putting on masks/animal heads and f-king is just another Saturday night at Windsor Castle.

Yes, there has been some level of desensitization to it all, because of the massive amount of information about it simply being out there. The Internet has kind of leveled the playing field, and more people than you would think are open to the idea of a controlling elite nowadays.

Secret societies definitely exist, and have throughout history. It's just that what they are today aren't as romantic anymore. Now you can boil it down to groups of world leaders, banking oligarchs, oil barons, corporations and their lobbyists, and throw in a dash of old school royalty for good measure and that's basically it. And they are all just playing a massive game of Civ.

 

[LCGeek]

The UN isn't all that secret but meh, there are secret societies out there ...aren't the Bush's in one the Skulls, that kind of stuff. Interesting read, now lets all go watch you tube of politicians and count how many times they say New World Order.

nothing is scarier than an all powerful government...

Kerry was also in skull and bones, there have been some reputable figures in amercian politics that have been part of that secret group or freemasons.

nothing is scarier than an all powerful government...

That's nothing to fear its a all powerful government run by tyrannical nepotistic people....

 

[Who]

You seem way more reasonable than most of the people I was describing, I didn't mean to put you into that bucket directly. Sorry if it came off that way.

Also, no, science is qualitatively different from dogmatic beliefs because it's a self-correcting process that doesn't claim anything with absolute certainty. It's not perfect and is still subject to certain biases that make long-standing ideas harder to challenge than they should be, but its overall methodology makes it a better barometer for "truth" and "reality" than most of the alternatives. It's not just another belief system because we can use it to make things that work whether or not you believe in them.

Fair enough but I think being scientific minded, by your very definition, comes with being completely open to all possibilities, not just agreeing blindly with what the current scientific consensus is. That includes the concept of God etc. 100 years ago I would presume many scientists would view an accurate description of modern life as blasphemous and impossible.

But that's a conversation for another thread. Probably started by me

 

[Orayn]

Fair enough but I think being scientific minded, by your very definition, comes with being completely open to all possibilities, not just agreeing blindly with what the current scientific consensus is. That includes the concept of God etc. 100 years ago I would presume many scientists would view an accurate description of modern life as blasphemous and impossible.

But that's a conversation for another thread. Probably started by me

I'm also willing to let this go, but I do have a major point of contention with the bolded: Science doesn't have "blasphemy." The closest equivalent is a claim that sounds outlandish and would require a lot of established theory to be dramatically rewritten, but that's hard rather than impossible. If you can offer a new explanation that has more explanatory power and is properly put together, it has the potential (ideally) to be accepted no matter how ridiculous it might sound initially.

 

[m3r4]

Thank you very much for this thread, OP. I don't feel like I am able to contribute, not now at least, but all the input from different sides is definitely appreciated.

I am always jealous of people who are able to take a stance and communicate it in a convincing way. In my mind, I am always swaying to every side of the argument close to equally. It's annoying because subsequently any position I take is that of a sheep - just not bound to a single party, but the system itself, I guess.

 

[Skyzard]

The less people know about it, the more special the information. Converting people to it also has it's rewards.

Being the outcast, the one sane person, the underdog; it's a very romantic notion. Plus, if you are right, you get to say: "I told you so".

You can't see the appeal in that?

Sure. To people who enjoy being outcasts...it's not really about a theory there at all though just about petty people and discussion rivalry.

The comfort from believing an explanation is when it aligns with your views.

 

[Pilgrimzero]

Sometimes I really hope so, because I can't believe how stupid we all are.

 

[Brinbe]

There's no secret to it. But when an elite few have all the capital, of course they'll have an inordinate amount of influence. I doubt there's much insidiousness to it, other than maybe protecting what they have.