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[FightyF]

Years ago saw some Christian pastor/priest/scholar (or should I just say "holyman") on the TV talking about how it's understood to be a day that was ascribed by the Romans as a day of celebration, and then it got mixed with Christianity. The arguements and evidences were pretty convincing, and he knew what he was talking about, and apparently this idea is held by many Christian scholars.

Having grew up in Red Deer, home of some large Christian colleges (well, they are nearby). A place where people know their Bible better than most. Anyways they celebrated Christmas as if it was his birthday, because as I've heard "we'll never know the true day of his birth". My guess is that this is common knowledge...but on the other hand I read articles on the web and in print that explicitly state that it is his birthday. In other situations, I see the wording "Dec 25 is a celebration of Christ's birthday", which seems more accurate, ie. Dec25 is a placeholder day, but it's done for the sole purpose of celebrating Jesus's day of birth.

I know that Christianity as it's practiced across this hemisphere is quite varied and different. Go to the Maritimes and people close up shop on Sunday. But in the west here, we work on Sundays. Go down to Mexico and Easter celebrations are more lively...etc. Perhaps it is taken more literally in Southern USA, for example?

I have a good grasp on the demographic of this forum, so I'm wondering who here does believe that Dec 25 is Jesus's birthday? Until I saw the show, years ago, I wouldn't have known that Christians believe this. I've always taken it literally, not taking into account that this day was chosen for a day of celebration. The fact that I was 19 or so before knowing this, tells me that a) this is probably taught in Church and my ignorance is due to the fact that I don't go to it...or b) this isn't common knowledge to begin with. I see evidence for both a and b, and that's why I'm asking.

 

[tenchir]

I heard that it isn't the day of his birth, the Roman just chose that day to "celebrate his birth." That day happens to be very popular among the "pagans" and used to be called Winter Solstice.... I just read it from somewhere, so I am not sure about this.

Just googled and found this.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/winter_solstice.htm

CHRISTIANITY: Any record of the date of birth of Yeshua Ben Nazareth (later known as Jesus Christ) has been lost. There is sufficient evidence in the Gospels to indicate that Yeshua was born in the fall, but this seems to have been unknown to early Christians. By the beginning of the 4th century CE, there was intense interest in choosing a day to celebrate Yeshua's birthday. The western church leaders selected DEC-25 because this was already the date recognized throughout the Roman Empire as the birthday of various Pagan gods. 1,2 Since there was no central Christian authority at the time, it took centuries before the tradition was universally accepted:

 

[Phoenix]

Nope. Its just a chosen day, much like Sunday being the 'day of rest' (when actually most historians say the Sabbath would have been a Saturday).

 

[Mejilan]

It is my understanding that what we know and accept as Christianity (including the Christmas Tree tradition) today is actually a celebration of the Winter Solstice celebrated by the peasants. A holiday incorporated by the ruling Romans into Christianity in order to make the religion more palatable to the commoners. They took the day and the traditions and "converted" it, if you will, to the Christian cause.

If this is true, I don't see how the day is actually the day that Christ was born, unless it's by the wildest of coincidences.

Actually, wasn't he born in the Spring or something?

 

[Mejilan]

Nope. Its just a chosen day, much like Sunday being the 'day of rest' (when actually most historians say the Sabbath would have been a Saturday).

Interesting note: In Judaism, Saturday IS the Sabbath, the day of rest. And, actually, it begins Friday night at sundown, and lasts until an hour beyond sundown (or when the first star shines in the night sky) on Saturday night. Even more interesting, the Hebrew word for "Saturday" is Yom Shabat (which means Day of Sabbath) or just plainly, Shabat.

 

[Saturnman]

Isn't Easter a more important holiday as far as Jesus and Christianity is concerned?

I prefer to celebrate the winter solstice on Xmas.

 

[NLB2]

I do not.
The calendar doesn't make any sense. We number our years based on Jesus' birth, yet Jesus' birth isn't the new year. Why is that?

 

[Chony]

Isn't Easter a more important holiday as far as Jesus and Christianity is concerned?

I prefer to celebrate the winter solstice on Xmas.

Because giant rabbits with eggs makes more sense than a fat guy living in the north pole with elves.

 

[pnjtony]

Yes, the Roman Catholics declared Dec 25th Jesus's birthday to coincide with Yule (pagan holiday) to make the conversion from paganism to christianity easier for them. A lot of traditions like Evergreens indoors, evergreen wreaths, gift giving, singing and feasts was observed during Yule.

 

[karasu]

I don't even see how some Christians can view the Sabbath as Sunday, that isn't even biblical. It isn't even the Sabbath.

But no, Christmas is just another Pagan holiday stripped of it's original meanings. Like Halloween, but some Christians seem to hate that one.

 

[pnjtony]

The romans tried creating All Saints Day "Nov 1st" to counter Halloween or "Samhain" to make the conversion painless but that's the one that didn't catch on, so the catholic church demonized it and deemed it evil

 

[Amir0x]

It is my understanding that what we know and accept as Christianity (including the Christmas Tree tradition) today is actually a celebration of the Winter Solstice celebrated by the peasants. A holiday incorporated by the ruling Romans into Christianity in order to make the religion more palatable to the commoners. They took the day and the traditions and "converted" it, if you will, to the Christian cause.

If this is true, I don't see how the day is actually the day that Christ was born, unless it's by the wildest of coincidences.

Actually, wasn't he born in the Spring or something?

Ding Ding Ding.

The actual date is speculated to be late September/early October.

 

[Saturnman]

Because giant rabbits with eggs makes more sense than a fat guy living in the north pole with elves.

The rabbits and eggs are just the pagan renmants of the holiday and are used as kid stories and the commercial aspect of the holiday.

Easter is the resurection of the Christ, the cornerstone of Christian belief. It is more important than Xmas, religiously.

 

[Brendonia]

Christmas in general is an extention of the Roman/Latin festival of Saturnalia that was celebrated during December. Being a Christian myself its not always an easy thing to believe but once you think about it pinpointing the exact date of the birth of Christ isn't the easiest thing one can figure out. And for anyone who isn't religious it's just a joke anyway so they don't even care.

For the guy who asked, yes, Easter is a much more religious holiday for Christians. It marks the resurrection of Christ who died for the sins of the Christians. Again, if you aren't religious, it's a stupid holiday, but if you are, it's extremely important, much moreso than Christmas is in theory, but Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays anyway!

 

[cvxfreak]

I heard once that it could've been July 25, and that's my mother's birthday.

Christmas during the middle of the year? O_O (I'd say summer but that applies to Australians).

 

[3phemeral]

Hrm.. I was reading how the tradition of the Christmas Tree is derived from Nordic myth, where Odin's spirit resides within the tree. When winter came, the God's would leave so decorating the tree and lighting candles were an effort to convince them that Spring never left, thereby fooling the God's into returning once again.

I can't seem to find this information anywhere so I have no idea where I read it from. Anyone familiar with this as well? Seems to be wrong according to my research. Just curious where I could have read something like that

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

No

 

[Tarazet]

It's as good as any other guess.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

pope constintane changed this among other things

 

[xsarien]

It is my understanding that what we know and accept as Christianity (including the Christmas Tree tradition) today is actually a celebration of the Winter Solstice celebrated by the peasants. A holiday incorporated by the ruling Romans into Christianity in order to make the religion more palatable to the commoners. They took the day and the traditions and "converted" it, if you will, to the Christian cause.

See also: Halloween

 

[Crow357]

No, I don't believe that. It's just the day that Christians have chosen to celebrate the birth.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

evidence suggests he wasnt born nowhere near close that day so no i dont believe.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

If this is Jesus, then yes.

 

[ConfusingJazz]

Lets put it this way, its no coincidence that the two major holidays of Christianity are celebrated around the winter solstice and spring equinox, two major holidays in most other religions, pagan or otherwise.

EDIT:

If this is Jesus, then yes.

Thats just begging to be photoshopped with a cross behind him or something...

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

Could it be? And maybe I'm stretching a bit that the Bible isn't REALLY a true and actual accounting of events but, more of a mythological account based on actual tales that were passed down from person to person until one day they were captured on scripture once that was done they added a bit of creative editing to insure that it would resonate with the largest amount of people?


Just a thought.

 

[SteveMeister]

Yes, the Roman Catholics declared Dec 25th Jesus's birthday to coincide with Yule (pagan holiday) to make the conversion from paganism to christianity easier for them. A lot of traditions like Evergreens indoors, evergreen wreaths, gift giving, singing and feasts was observed during Yule.

Yule was a pagan tradition of Norway, not Rome. Romans never celebrated Yule.

There was a show on the History Channel the other day that covered the history of Christmas, very interesting.

For many many years, Christmas was celebrated in a fashion more like Mardi Gras in much of Europe. Drunken revelry, debauchery, and role-reversal (a peasant would be chosen to rule for a day, peasants could demand entry into rich peoples' homes and if they didn't let them in, they'd do a "trick", etc.) Then the Puritans came along and outlawed the holiday.

This continued in the newly formed United States, too -- there was no Christmas holiday. Then in the 1800's, the holiday was reinvented. Traditions from other countries were adapted & combined to create a holiday that, while still celebrating the birth of Christ, centered around children and family. Old traditions such as bringing evergreens into the home around the winter solstice to symbolize fertility & life. Turning St. Nicolas/Sinter Claus into Santa Claus. The public ate it up, especially with the poem 'Twas The Night Before Christmas and Dickens' A Christmas Carol painting the picture so vividly.

So instead of a drunken orgy, Christmas had been turned into a time of giving, of spending time with family, of focusing on the children.

And that's the true meaning of Christmas, Charlie Brown.

 

[Gantz]

Nope. Its just a chosen day, much like Sunday being the 'day of rest' (when actually most historians say the Sabbath would have been a Saturday).

Well the Sabbath is still Saturday for Jewish people. It's just silly Christians decided to have services on Sunday.

 

[Shogmaster]

Yule was a pagan tradition of Norway, not Rome. Romans never celebrated Yule.

There was a show on the History Channel the other day that covered the history of Christmas, very interesting.

For many many years, Christmas was celebrated in a fashion more like Mardi Gras in much of Europe. Drunken revelry, debauchery, and role-reversal (a peasant would be chosen to rule for a day, peasants could demand entry into rich peoples' homes and if they didn't let them in, they'd do a "trick", etc.) Then the Puritans came along and outlawed the holiday.

This continued in the newly formed United States, too -- there was no Christmas holiday. Then in the 1800's, the holiday was reinvented. Traditions from other countries were adapted & combined to create a holiday that, while still celebrating the birth of Christ, centered around children and family. Old traditions such as bringing evergreens into the home around the winter solstice to symbolize fertility & life. Turning St. Nicolas/Sinter Claus into Santa Claus. The public ate it up, especially with the poem 'Twas The Night Before Christmas and Dickens' A Christmas Carol painting the picture so vividly.

So instead of a drunken orgy, Christmas had been turned into a time of giving, of spending time with family, of focusing on the children.

And that's the true meaning of Christmas, Charlie Brown.

I thihk that program delt with recent history of X-Max. pnjtony was talking about ancient history of X-Mas, and Yule tradition started back in the Druids period, And the Pope (what he meant by "Catholics") did the switchroo to ween the people off of Pagn Yule traditions by making 12-25 into Christ's birthday around 5th century.

 

[Shompola]

The pagan god that was born 25 December is Mithras. Winter Soltice has allways been celebrated a few days before that i.e. 21 December or 22 December depending on how accurate you follow the star charts every year.

 

[firex]

Jesus (well, black Jesus, anyway) was born on February 17, 1963.

 

[jett]

I thought it was obvious to everyone on this planet that it's just a symbolic date.

 

[MrPing1000]

I thought it was obvious to everyone on this planet that it's just a symbolic date.

indeedy

 

[Pellham]

Well the Sabbath is still Saturday for Jewish people. It's just silly Christians decided to have services on Sunday.

It's yet another thing that the roman catholics changed to convert pagans (who worshipped on sunday to celebrate the sun). Although I believe they also wanted to distance themselves from jews.

The funny part is that there are a lot of fundamental christians out there who've actually come up with bullshit to justify the change to sunday (there is absolutely no mention of such a change in the bible or in written history other than when Constantine had the day changed to sunday).

 

[Seth C]

Well the Sabbath is still Saturday for Jewish people. It's just silly Christians decided to have services on Sunday.

Christianity isn't Judaism. We don't "remember the Sabbath, to keep it Holy" because you can't find that commandment in the New Testament, and the scriptures contained in the Old Testament were for Jews, not for the whole world. Christianity is a new religion, with roots in Judaism (obviously), but with its own laws and guidelines. Yes, many of them were originally from Moses' laws, but some did not carry over. This is simply one of them.

Anyone who tells you that Christian's worship on the Sabbath and that it is now Sunday is simply foolish. It has absolutely nothing to do with that. We worship on Sunday because, well, it is the only specific day given that the early Christians came together. In all reality, they probably came together to worship on many days. We also don't believe we cannot work on Sunday, or any of the other practices that went along with the Sabbath. Why? Sunday isn't the Sabbath day. It's just the day we come together to worship.

Pellham:

Acts 20:7 And on the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to depart the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight.

There is no command to come together on the first day, but there is certainly an example of it happening, and long before Constantine, sorry.

 

[Gattsu25]

Dec 25 is supposed to be a day of rememberance...not a birthday :b

 

[CrunchyB]

If this is Jesus, then yes.

No, it's actually Saint Nicholas, Bishop of Myra.

 

[Gantz]

Christianity isn't Judaism. We don't "remember the Sabbath, to keep it Holy" because you can't find that commandment in the New Testament, and the scriptures contained in the Old Testament were for Jews, not for the whole world. Christianity is a new religion, with roots in Judaism (obviously), but with its own laws and guidelines. Yes, many of them were originally from Moses' laws, but some did not carry over. This is simply one of them.

Anyone who tells you that Christian's worship on the Sabbath and that it is now Sunday is simply foolish. It has absolutely nothing to do with that. We worship on Sunday because, well, it is the only specific day given that the early Christians came together. In all reality, they probably came together to worship on many days. We also don't believe we cannot work on Sunday, or any of the other practices that went along with the Sabbath. Why? Sunday isn't the Sabbath day. It's just the day we come together to worship.

Yet Jesus worshipped on the Sabbath Saturday so why don't Christians? Christianity is not a new religion. It's a sect/splinter of Judaism. Sunday was decided by Christians as a day a convience. Christians in the days of Jesus worshipped on the Sabbath (Saturday).

 

[Iceman]

We celebrate the birth of Jesus on this day! (MERRY CHRISTMAS, BTW)

Where is the big controversy?

Christians in hispanic countries celebrate the giving of gifts from the magi on January 6th. So if anything, IMO, the celebration of Jesus' birth is weeks long, not just one specific day.

And the sabbath is the seventh day... who care's what day it is specifically? As long as you're routine about it. The seventh day is for rest. For a community that is ruled by religious law, like say Hebrews, then its probably better that it be one specific day for all. But for everyone else it's moot. I go to church services on Wednesday as well as Sunday... what if I considered Wednesday the day of rest?


So we finally got a snowfall here in Madison and of all days it's Christmas. Wow.

Not that I like snow.

 

[Iceman]

"Yet Jesus worshipped on the Sabbath Saturday so why don't Christians? Christianity is not a new religion. It's a sect/splinter of Judaism. Sunday was decided by Christians as a day a convience. Christians in the days of Jesus worshipped on the Sabbath (Saturday)."

Did you know that Jesus healed a man on the Sabbath and that infractions is what the Pharisees used to imprison and put him on trial for blasphemy? Jesus was a rule breaker man... Changed the whole way people viewed the scriptures, with he himself as the fulfillment of the prophecies. I definitely wouldn't describe Christianity as simply a splinter of Judaism. He turned the faith on its head.

 

[FightyF]

Did you know that Jesus healed a man on the Sabbath and that infractions is what the Pharisees used to imprison and put him on trial for blasphemy? Jesus was a rule breaker man... Changed the whole way people viewed the scriptures, with he himself as the fulfillment of the prophecies. I definitely wouldn't describe Christianity as simply a splinter of Judaism. He turned the faith on its head.

From what I know, I'd agree with that assesment. For his time, he was a bleeding heart liberal. I use the term "liberal" relatively, but "bleeding heart" without a doubt. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a situation with a prostitute where Jesus said that the law should change to be more forgiving? Something like that.

 

[doncale]

no I don't believe that Dec 25th is the birthday of Jesus.


YES I BELIEVE JESUS IS THE SON OF THE ALMIGHTY GOD.... I ain't gonna deny HIM in public



everyday should be JESUS DAY.



no I ain't gonna say merry christmas....blah to that.

 

[AlphaSnake]

Jesus (well, black Jesus, anyway) was born on February 17, 1963.

But Morgan Freeman was born on June 1st, 1937. :\

 

[karasu]

We celebrate the birth of Jesus on this day! (MERRY CHRISTMAS, BTW)

Where is the big controversy?

Christians in hispanic countries celebrate the giving of gifts from the magi on January 6th. So if anything, IMO, the celebration of Jesus' birth is weeks long, not just one specific day.

And the sabbath is the seventh day... who care's what day it is specifically? As long as you're routine about it. The seventh day is for rest. For a community that is ruled by religious law, like say Hebrews, then its probably better that it be one specific day for all. But for everyone else it's moot. I go to church services on Wednesday as well as Sunday... what if I considered Wednesday the day of rest?


So we finally got a snowfall here in Madison and of all days it's Christmas. Wow.

Not that I like snow.

Because if the Sabbath is the seventh day, celebrating it on the 1st day is no Sabbath.

 

[Truelize]

Ding Ding Ding.

The actual date is speculated to be late September/early October.

Wrong..

The actual date is believed to be April 6th. Christmas is just the day we CELEBRATE his birth.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Because if the Sabbath is the seventh day, celebrating it on the 1st day is no Sabbath.

Well, there are calendars that list Monday first.

 

[ManaByte]

Wrong..

The actual date is believed to be April 6th. Christmas is just the day we CELEBRATE his birth.

Yup, it was in the Spring. And the "Three Wise Men" actually didn't arrive to see young Jesus until he was somewhere around 10 or 12.

 

[Stele]

Yup, it was in the Spring. And the "Three Wise Men" actually didn't arrive to see young Jesus until he was somewhere around 10 or 12.

If that shit even happened.

 

[firex]

But Morgan Freeman was born on June 1st, 1937. :\

jordan!

I debated trying to find Tupac's birthdate instead.

 

[soundwave05]

Even Easter I believe is that date because it was previously a pagan festival to commorate the onset of spring.

The Roman authority simply "adjusted" these popular pagan festivals because it would make the onset of Catholicism easier to digest.

Various pagan gods like Dionysis I believe and several others (even Hercules IIRC) claim December 25th as their birth day, but this is more likely a date that's popular because of its the time of the winter solstice.

And celebrating Sabbath on Sunday, again, was something I think either the Romans pushed for again or something Paul might have instilled to make the religion more paltable to gentiles.

Even though Chrsitanity may claim to be the religion of one Yeshua ben Nazarene, it really doesn't follow any of the precepts that he followed, which basically was liberal Judaism (ie: don't stone people, forgive others, turn the other cheek, etc.).

 

[Crow357]

Yes Saturday was most likely the Sabbath. When Jesus was crucified, they decided to break the legs of the 3 guys on the crosses that day. They wanted them to die faster so they wouldn't be left hanging on the Sabbath. They didn't have to break Jesus' legs, because he was already dead.

The ultimate goal of the Bible is not to be a historical record, but to point the way to salvation. The Old Testament is used to convict the sinner of his sins and the New Testament is used to share the good news of Jesus.