Support NeoGAF

[Celcius]

Animation needs to be improved, A.I. needs to be improved, and full ray tracing needs to be more widely adopted. We also need to stick to 4K for a long time and not push for 8K and higher imho.

 

[Duchess]

I'm sure a lot of us can recall a time in the past 20 years when we've thought, "wow, graphics can't possibly get better than this..!"

 

[lh032]

hopefully it hits at the wall asap so devs actually focus on frame rate rather than visuals.

 

[Guilty_AI]

We're at a point where art and visual design matter more than graphics as far as 'looking good' is concerned. Full ray tracing, 4k textures and infinite poligons displayed in a boring manner cannot beat a carefully crafted scene.

 

[Represent.]

Not even close. Technically, the end game is Avatar 2 graphics in real-time gameplay. 50 years from now? Sure. But as long as Hollywood keeps progressing, games will always have a target to chase.

Technology isn't just going to suddenly stop improving. Graphics will always get better. There's no end point

 

[Victor Omega]

Not even close. Technically, the end game is Avatar 2 graphics in real-time gameplay. 50 years from now? Sure. But as long as Hollywood keeps progressing, games will always have a target to chase.

Technology isn't just going to suddenly stop improving. Graphics will always get better. There's no end point

Avatar's Graphics is not what made Avatar what it is, its animation, its motion capture tech. Movement in 3D is what make it realistic.

 

[Represent.]

Avatar's Graphics is not what made Avatar what it is, its animation, its motion capture tech. Movement in 3D is what make it realistic.

None of that would equate to anything without the world class CG and VFX though. It's a combination of everything

 

[clampzyn]

Technology isn't just going to suddenly stop improving. Graphics will always get better. There's no end point

Graphics at certain point in time will look all photo-realistic, what people should expect is the experience of gaming in the future, surely there will be something new besides from keyboard/mouse/vr/controller to play a game, there will be something new that'll replace this input devices for a different experience in playing games. Though I don't know if our current generation will be able to experience that as it maybe 100/200/300 years in the future before that tech comes to life.

 

[Chronicle]

I think creativity has hit a wall, that and games being built with last gen consoles in mind. Devs should push for better physics and world simulation.

Perhaps but tens of millions of us buy popular games (GOW, COD, Elden Ring) because they're very fun, exciting and gorgeous. It's a big risk to invest in a blockbuster game with awesome physics and world simulation when the proven formula is loved by so many.

 

[BennyBlanco]

the tech used to advance at a crazy rate.

that was a 3 year gap in the 90s. look at the difference between a 2019 and a 2022 game. it barely exists.

 

[asdasdasdbb]

I was impressed by the 3dmark Speedway demo (watching it on Youtube). There's no way you could get that level of fidelity on the current generation of consoles though, even at 30 fps.

 

[clampzyn]

I was impressed by the 3dmark Speedway demo (watching it on Youtube). There's no way you could get that level of fidelity on the current generation of consoles though, even at 30 fps.

The only reason why we can't get those kind of visuals is because developers won't risk their game requiring high end build for gamers to run their game, imagine if games today minimum requirement is a 4090, you'll freaking see those level of visuals ez from talented high budget studios. At the end of the day, majority of the pc builds are around low-mid end build coz people just see no reason to spend 3000-5000$ for a gaming hardware, that's why consoles will always stay relevant because of the price/performance consoles offer.

 

[RoadHazard]

We need full real-time RT (GI, shadows, reflections, all of it) to become the norm to have that next big leap. And the new generation of consoles just aren't powerful enough to do that. PC hardware is getting there, but will never move too far ahead of the console baseline (or maybe the low-end PC baseline). So this generation will kinda be an upgrade of the last one rather than the big leap we're accustomed to. And then the next one after that will be a similarly smallish upgrade, BUT when compared against the PS4 generation it will be a very big leap. So I don't think we've hit a wall, but it's taking more and more time to see significant improvements.

 

[clampzyn]

We need full real-time RT (GI, shadows, reflections, all of it) to become the norm to have that next big leap. And the new generation of consoles just aren't powerful enough to do that. PC hardware is getting there, but will never move too far ahead of the console baseline (or maybe the low-end PC baseline). So this generation will kinda be an upgrade of the last one rather than the big leap we're accustomed to. And then the next one after that will be a similarly smallish upgrade, BUT when compared against the PS4 generation it will be a very big leap. So I don't think we've hit a wall, but it's taking more and more time to see significant improvements.

agree, its just not possible for game tech/visuals to move fast because not everyone upgrades their gaming hardware when new ones come out, lots of them only upgrade when they feel their hardware are very outdated.

 

[Knot3D]

I'd be more concerned about NPC AI hitting a wall.

 

[RoboFu]

Well yeah there is a point where you hit time, budget, and skill walls. That's why middleware like unreal is so popular.

 

[clampzyn]

I'd be more concerned about NPC AI hitting a wall.

Don't worry, we'll probably be out of this world when that time comes. Future generations might already get everything procedural generation on their games where everyone will have different experience on their game, basically only the Title of the game is the same but the experience for everyone will be different. Let's face it, our current tech is just a small stepping stone for future generations, so might as well enjoy what there is to play with.

 

[Topher]

Avatar's Graphics is not what made Avatar what it is, its animation, its motion capture tech. Movement in 3D is what make it realistic.

Yep. And AI is going to really broaden animation. I'm guessing mocap is on borrowed time.

 

[mortal]

No, realtime visuals have yet to hit a wall.

 

[Shifty1897]

the tech used to advance at a crazy rate.

that was a 3 year gap in the 90s. look at the difference between a 2019 and a 2022 game. it barely exists.

I agree with your sentiment but why on earth would you choose these two games as your example?
These games are two different consoles, plus only one of these games still looks good today and it ain't Mario 64.

 

[rofif]

Slowly yes.
Yeah, I know ray tracing and so on.. but to be honest, raster techniques and shaders are so fucking good, that the gap between raster and RT is not that huge.
Uncharted 4 still looks amazing and it's 2016 game without any ray tracing... Death Stranding characters look almost real. There is not THAT MUCH better they can get. Obviously they will lkook a lot better but we are in 95% already.
OBVIOSULY Tlou2 and Part1 both look better than uc4 but I wanted to find the older game to show that .... hey... it is fucking 2016 game !!!
I know it's backed... but so what? It looks better baked than similar in real-time.
So if anything, games will look at least that good but fully real time like Metro Exodus.

Some games 6 YEARS later.... yeah. Look better. but much better? no.

 

[Ev1L AuRoN]

I think we're putting a lot of effort into graphics right now with ray tracing. I believe people are so used to the gamey look to the point where they don't really think about how an RT game looks more natural, RTGI, RTAO and shadows are game changers for pretty much any game, just look at Portal RTX.

 

[TheGodfather07]

It'll always continue to advance. It's just at a slower rate than it was in the past. I do expect some insane looking games to come this generation from studios like rockstar and naughty dog.

 

[Danknugz]

it's because a lot of up and coming game devs are just following in the footsteps of those who came before and now have a bunch of tools, templates, prefabs, assets and code they can re use and then rely on remasters and refined graphics to fill in any lack of creativity or innovation

 

[Throttle]

Those objects have physics, they are no attached to the table. Static objects have the usual lightmap shadows, but interactive objects need real time lighting.

Forza Horizon 4 (probably 3 as well) has shadows for destructible objects, even after they are destroyed and moving. Seams to me CDPR just didn't bother to implement classic shadows for that non ray-tracing scene. They would not look as correct, but should make it look more similar.

 

[nial]

Slowly yes.
Yeah, I know ray tracing and so on.. but to be honest, raster techniques and shaders are so fucking good, that the gap between raster and RT is not that huge.
Uncharted 4 still looks amazing and it's 2016 game without any ray tracing... Death Stranding characters look almost real. There is not THAT MUCH better they can get. Obviously they will lkook a lot better but we are in 95% already.
OBVIOSULY Tlou2 and Part1 both look better than uc4 but I wanted to find the older game to show that .... hey... it is fucking 2016 game !!!
I know it's backed... but so what? It looks better baked than similar in real-time.
So if anything, games will look at least that good but fully real time like Metro Exodus.

Some games 6 YEARS later.... yeah. Look better. but much better? no.

Uncharted 4, despite being released over half a decade ago, still holds up due to its great art direction.
People need to remember that graphics won't automatically look good if they push for more polygons, it all comes down to what artists can do.

 

[kiphalfton]

Graphics in a lot of games have a long ways to go.

Animations in pretty much all games have a really long ways to go.

I'd take the latter honestly over the former though. Well that and better lighting.

 

[Kazekage1981]

no, it hasn't hit a wall. These factors still tank performance:

-Raytracing
-Path tracing
-Foliage
-Water physics
-cinematic motion/animation
-resolution

-character facial animations and movements still look like stiff manikins, lifeless puppet dolls.
-Even if you were to have dense forest, shrubs, trees, flowers, plants or whatever, they can't look stiff either because the wind blows against them.

These graphical features to be implemented and incorporated takes vast amount of resources and time, which could potentially cost shitty gameplay, and short gameplay

still got a long way to go.

 

[amigastar]

Every day I care less and less about overly detailed graphics.

I just want good games that have a cool art style.

Same, i've stopped caring a while ago. Good graphics will come eventually in the near future. I just like good games as you said.

 

[Killer8]

In terms of resolution, we have reached the limit of what the human eye can resolve on large 4K screen at a typical viewing distance. And a lot of people can't even tell the difference between 1080p and 4K for that matter. Like CD quality audio, resolution is now so high that it's outpaced human biological limits.

Even once 8K starts getting pushed, I have a feeling 4K is going to be the mainstay resolution that gaming (and movie content) will continue to be authored in. Native 8K is only going to be a luxury for a few niche projects, "because they can" so to speak. We're also seeing better and cheaper AI upscaling techniques, so 8K as a final quality step could essentially become 'free' at some point, with developers barely having to lift a finger.

 

[NightmareFarm]

No it's just that devs are too focused on making games for last gen and the switch and as a result graphics are held back.



I don't even know if I can complain tbh because if we get next gen graphics we will probably lose 60fps option.

 

[Deputy Moonman]

As long as movie picture quality can continue improving there will always be room for game graphics to improve. Unfortunately, the self-inflicted recession we are going through has sent development costs through the roof and console makers can't exactly push the limit with games.

 

[kyliethicc]

Its mainly an issue of time, labor, & money. Resources limited.

The max potential of the hardware is out of reach now for most developers given all the contraints.

 

[BennyBlanco]

I agree with your sentiment but why on earth would you choose these two games as your example?
These games are two different consoles, plus only one of these games still looks good today and it ain't Mario 64.

The tech in mario 64 is just leagues beyond what they could do on SNES is what I was trying to illustrate. If you wanna look at 2 different consoles, compare RDR2 to any modern Xbox or PS5 game.

 

[Amiga]

GOWR runs on the 1.8 TFLOPS PS4.

Almost every PS5 game can run in the PS4 if it had the same SSD.

 

[rapid32.5]

We are at the point when devs can't release games day one and early adopters wait weeks or years for patches in order to replay complete and playable games.

 

[Kenpachii]

Graphics haven't been relevant to me for a long time, in my 20's i cared a lot, in my 30's i give zero shits.

About realistic graphics? we aren't even close yet. Everything is still very game looking and acting. AI is trash, Physics is trash, visuals are extremely limited still in general. Even movie CGI is lacking in my view. While sony does a good attempt and pushing motion capturing forwards, its still very limited.

 

[ÆMNE22A!C]

I did when playing Halo CE at launch.

It'll happen again.

Not soon tho I reckon.

 

[ZoukGalaxy]

No, there is so much to do. Just look a movie VFX.

Well, when we'll reach a atomic level of "polygon" rendering, that would be the end indeed

Also, physics has a lot to offer, we barely improved this important aspect, as well as lighting which is still work in progress.

Also, nothing immersion breaking that polygons clipping each others:
"hey, look at that wondeful armor !" *Hair clipping all through it and weapon deep in the back*

Or

"Leh'qhide beside this wall" *Half body clipping inside wall, rocks, grass...*

 

[iHaunter]

I think creativity has hit a wall, that and games being built with last gen consoles in mind. Devs should push for better physics and world simulation.

Terrible take. We're still in the transition stage of consoles.

 

[Dust-by-Monday]

I think we still need to get rid of stuff like pop in, texture loading issues and LOD switching before stuff is truly immersive. However, it seems like UE 5.1 does pretty much that so it's very exciting to see where games can go from here.

 

[Knightime_X]

This example is not about not being able to spot the difference, it's about there being a way smaller difference than the previous 2 tenfold increases

I believe at some point in time, AI technology will easily fill the gaps in whatever devs and gamers are striving for.
These topics won't age well.

 

[lachesis]

I also think it has hit the point for that it looks good enough for most laymen's eyes in a lot of cases.
Certain ones, say - TLOU2 - they did wonderful job of capturing and almost overcoming the "uncanny valley" effect. I still see some unnatural aspects, but whether I like the game or not, the graphics seems have come a long way.

However, more realistic it gets - more resources - both manpower + smart usages of available resources that are more or less limited (budget, or system power for that reason) - and those 2 are not likely to go away. Perhaps if AI would be implemented in art, maybe it will be helpful in that department on manpower (artists) + resources... but at this point of time, I think we hit a point where the investment on gfx has hit some limit on the diminishing return, not because of we can't create something that's truly realistic looking.

And there comes in the subjective part of "art direction". Say, that blue-green-brownish tint of Kojima and his uses of lighting, while looks good, it's not really "realistic" in a sense of how we perceive the world with our eyes. Just like all the Asian girls using photo filter that makes them look like a doll or sort. So it really depends on the person to person, also to the ability of each and everyone's comprehension, or willing to accept that specific look.

Say... Avatar 2. I am in awe (haven't seen the movie, but saw plenty of previews) of details and pupils, whatnot. However I just cannot accept that they are "real" because in my mind, it's fantasy. There are no 8ft tall blue colored folks as far as I know. That's because I have not seen them in real life, moving, breathing etc... and perhaps that's why I cannot see them as "real" or even "realistic" no matter how good the renderings are.

But some slightly older movies with fake water - I could say, "oh, it looks pretty good". Even something like that falling "donk" dude from old Titanic, I thought it looked real enough when I watched the movie, and also felt the pain when he hit the propeller of the sinking ship. That type of perception I am talking about - and maybe it's just me.

More than that - little off topic though - I'm more concerned of more or less relative stagnation of the interactivity of video game itself - that have we truly mastered the basic, visceral, primitive tactile pleasure of pressing a button and seeing the result on screen? Even to this day, some games just feels meh in that department, and it seems like only select few devs are really have mastered that. So - in a sense, I'm relieved that I don't have to play everything to get the enjoyment with my limited time... But of course, your miles may vary as it's all "personal" enjoyment of the medium!

 

[SlimySnake]

Nah. It's not the graphics. It's the developer's ambition, their pride and their talent. We are living in an era where the top line studios are content making last gen trash three years into next gen. They are the reason why it seems like we have hit a wall.

This is whats possible on next gen consoles.

 

[JimboJones]

I'm actually really excited in seeing more old games get the ray tracing treatment.

 

[daveonezero]

I think artistry, talent and creativity have been effectively killed off in the industry.

No true geniuses or visionaries.

It makes things stagnant.

 

[Banjo64]

Graphics are the poor man's gameplay.

 

[hinch7]

That's a hard no. Current generation consoles are barely scraping the barrel.. With RT performance @30FPS and low res. And those are the baseline for current generation games.

WIth that said.. we can get good fidelity given the right talent and devs, going by the UE5 tech demo's.

 

[pramod]

Not even close. Technically, the end game is Avatar 2 graphics in real-time gameplay. 50 years from now? Sure. But as long as Hollywood keeps progressing, games will always have a target to chase.

Technology isn't just going to suddenly stop improving. Graphics will always get better. There's no end point

Are we even at realtime Toy Story 1 or Jurassic Park level yet though? That was almost 30 years ago. The gap between what is "possible", and what is practical, just seems to keep widening over time...

 

[The Infectious Paradox]

AI and physics over graphics