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[shuri]

semi off topic but..

Gang Violence is going out of control. I just learned today that the local market / mini mall where I used to get hang out when I was a kid is completly overrun by some haitian gang. Last week they actually stormed the market place, started gang-fondling (wtf) this random girl who worked there, and started running around, trashing stuff around and throwing fruits to each others. That's straight out of a Steven Segal movie intro.

I hate to fucking take the bus late at night because the terminus 3 streets away from my house became a fucking gang meet up spot. The cops arent doing anything, they're never around. I dont feel safe on the streets that I grew up on. This is horrible. I dont want to move out from this neighberhood because of those 4th class citizens thugs who will probably move out to Toronto or the states in a few years.

Walls of the school I went to are now covered in grafitis, signs, a few years ago some retard thought it would be funny to spray paint my father's work truck with G'ZAM WUZ HERE or something in fucking yellow. If I found them and tried to give them some taste of alluminium justice *I* would go to jail while those fuckers would be free to roam the street and harass my family.

oh well.

 

[border]

60-70 years ago deeply religious Southerners were hanging blacks in trees and burning them alive. Even the people that didn't commit lychings showed up to the events like it was a fucking party, and took home body parts as souvenirs. Those black citizens never felt safe in the neighborhoods they grew up in, even when they were growing up.

Violence is always a problem, but I think people miss the boat when they say lack of religious faith is inherently linked with how violent a society is (not that Naked Shuriken was specifically saying anything of the sort). All those evil atheists in Western Europe.....yet they're astounding less violent than we are.

 

[Fresh Prince]

semi off topic but..

Gang Violence is going out of control. I just learned today that the local market / mini mall where I used to get hang out when I was a kid is completly overrun by some haitian gang. Last week they actually stormed the market place, started gang-fondling (wtf) this random girl who worked there, and started running around, trashing stuff around and throwing fruits to each others. That's straight out of a Steven Segal movie intro.

I hate to fucking take the bus late at night because the terminus 3 streets away from my house became a fucking gang meet up spot. The cops arent doing anything, they're never around. I dont feel safe on the streets that I grew up on. This is horrible. I dont want to move out from this neighberhood because of those 4th class citizens thugs who will probably move out to Toronto or the states in a few years.

Walls of the school I went to are now covered in grafitis, signs, a few years ago some retard thought it would be funny to spray paint my father's work truck with G'ZAM WUZ HERE or something in fucking yellow. If I found them and tried to give them some taste of alluminium justice *I* would go to jail while those fuckers would be free to roam the street and harass my family.

oh well.

Law and Order != Belief in God*

*since you said semi-related I thought you trying to make some point about God and Justice, Morals etc- if you didn't mean this don't ake any offence

 

[etiolate]

It does sort of feel like there are less agnostics and more athiests these days. It could just be the change of what we base our society around. For all the religious right you see on TV news, there are tons of pharmaceutical ads. Science is strong here.

 

[Hitokage]

It does sort of feel like there are less agnostics and more athiests these days. It could just be the change of what we base our society around. For all the religious right you see on TV news, there are tons of pharmaceutical ads. Science is strong here.

Pseudoscience is stronger.

 

[Mumbles]

How is it BS? Do you deny that things in society such as violence has escalated to uncontrolable levels?

Actually, violence in the US appears to be positively correlated to belief in gods, rather than non-belief (IOW, religion among prison inmates, income levels, regions all link violence with theism, and in particular christianity).

But yes, agnosticism, atheism, and general apathy towards the subject (which may as well be the same thing, since the definitions are so muddled) are generally on the increase in the US.

 

[megateto]

In Spain, I can definitely yes: after years of a dictator who was there "by the grace of God", coming from a profoundly religous country, the 70's came, Franco died, we had the transition to democracy and with it came the loss of power from the catholic church.

Good for everyone¡¡¡

 

[G4life98]

I hate when people talk about the 50's and 60's as the fucking good'ole days and fail to realize that most of those godfearing generations treated women and minorites like shit.

And i dont think we are becoming "godless" per se. but more inclined to question religious leaders and their motivations.

 

[Lara]

Why don't you go get some data to back up your claim, and then we'll talk?

(By the way -- even though some data would be nice, you also have to realize that surveys only measure what people are willing to say, and not necessarily what they really BELIEVE.)

You're not being fair on the original poster. You should be aware that there is no way that he can possibly satisfy - on an internet messageboard, no less - a claim of such enormous scope. Certainly, he can provide some historical evidence (or 'data', as you call it), but this still won't justify his claim in any way. That doesn't mean, however, that his question isn't worthy of any consideration.

Further, there is more evidence that may be considered than merely the data which you allude to, i.e., oral surveys. Practice would be the most obvious example. And although you are right to identify a gap between what people say (or do) and what they may believe, does this mean that no conclusions (however tentative) can be inferred about past or present mentalités/thought-worlds? If not, how would you test the strength of any such inferences?

 

[Outcast2004]

Why another religion thread? nothing good ever comes of these, it usually just ends up 10 pages of flames between people who believe and those who don't.


And for some reason the conclusion is made that if you believe in a faith or God it makes you "stupid", "ignorant", "dumb". Why this conclusion is jumped to I'll never know.


If you beleive fine, if you don't fine. Just don't make it a point to shove your agenda in others faces. And I assure you of this, beleiveing or not believing in something is in no way linked to ones intelligence.

 

[Minotauro]

Pseudoscience is stronger.

I'd type a long response to this post but I'm late to my appointment with my chiropractor.

 

[Nerevar]

This whole topic is about America. Don't deny it. Besides, you're right....I've never heard an American talk about world history.

I've never heard an American talk intelligently about American history, either. And I'm an American. Hell, I would say the average person over here probably doesn't know Gettysburg from Antietam, or understand how Plessy v Ferguson relates to Brown v Board of Education, etc.

 

[Minotauro]

And for some reason the conclusion is made that if you believe in a faith or God it makes you "stupid", "ignorant", "dumb". Why this conclusion is jumped to I'll never know.

Because they believe that the universe is run by some benevolent father figure in the sky who loves you unconditionally but will punish you for all eternity if you cross him?

Personally, I've never understood this line of reasoning. Shit, I don't think you could even find a human parent who would sentence one of their children to eternal suffering. Wouldn't you expect at least equal treatment by a supreme being?

 

[Outcast2004]

Mino, then you don't beleive it. Simple. But that doesn't make someone who does dumb.

You can't prove He exists, but you can't disporve He exisits either.

Just because you believe in somehing doesn't make you dumb.

for the record I'm agnostic, but I see both sides of the fence.

 

[Memles]

I could have sworn this was an appreciation thread for 13 Tales from Urban Bohemia's opening track. The Dandy Warhols are for more interesting than this argument.

 

[Gorey]

God Is Dead

If you meet the buddha on the road.....

 

[pnjtony]

Well..here's a rather short study on the importance of religion in the world. You'll notice that the US is the only major industrialized nation on the top half right above Mexico, then there's a really big gap.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_impo.htm

you'll also notice that canada isn't the least religious country, just the least religious that i'd prolly wanna live in.

 

[Outcast2004]

Since we like to quote NIN songs...

God is dead,

and no one cares....

if there is a hell

I'll see you there...





Thank you Downward Spiral

 

[Minotauro]

Mino, then you don't beleive it. Simple. But that doesn't make someone who does dumb.

You can't prove He exists, but you can't disporve He exisits either.

Just because you believe in somehing doesn't make you dumb.

for the record I'm agnostic, but I see both sides of the fence.

Okay, so, if I told you that I believe that Jon Voight is the ruler of the universe and he birthed a wombat out of his belly-button that was to die for all my transgressions, you wouldn't think I was stupid? People have a right to their beliefs. Likewise, I have a right to deem them stupid or not.

Also, agnosticism is a far cry from any of the major religions. I have no argument with someone believing in an ultimate creator. My problem is with organzied religion and the people who follow them.

 

[Outcast2004]

Mino, if that's the case then I'm sorry that makes you just as "dumb" and "ignorant". Or in this case, narrow-minded.

Organized regligion isn't a bad thing, it's the extremists inside said religions that take whatever dogma they have and twist it around to sit their own twisted needs. Say someone saying they killed someone because "God told me too".

It's also those that follow blindly that give any religion a bad name, it's fine to be a Catholic, or whatever sect you choose to follow. You should question your faith though, you need to know for yourself if it's your path. There are certain things in the Bible (or any Holy scripture) that don't apply or the meanings have changed. For instance, I don't think my wife would enjoy being beaten so she knows her submissive role in the household.

If you want to believe Jon Voight is your ruler of the universe so be it. It's not my place to say you're right or wrong. What you believe is what you believe. Doesn't make you any less "stupid" or "ignorant" as someone who believes that the is a God on the other side to take them to their Heaven. Only one way to find out if this is true, unfortunate thing is that there's no one free phone call from the otherside to find out who's right or wrong.

Besides, Jon Voight did create on thing heavenly...... Angelina Jolie..... drooooool.

 

[FortNinety]

Yeah, life was SO much better in the 50s and the 60s. Fucking whatever...

 

[maharg]

If you want to believe Jon Voight is your ruler of the universe so be it. It's not my place to say you're right or wrong. What you believe is what you believe. Doesn't make you any less "stupid" or "ignorant" as someone who believes that the is a God on the other side to take them to their Heaven.

Er, not that I necessarily agree with him, but isn't that his point?

 

[Manics]

God Is Dead

Nietzsche is Dead.

God.

 

[BuddyC]

Yeah, life was SO much better in the 50s and the 60s. Fucking whatever...

:lol

Someone once tried to convince me that American life was more fulfilling in the 50's and 60's. They were my age. I asked how they knew this, or if they could prove it. Their response? "Look at the TV shows and movies from that era! They just seem happier, more fulfilled!"

 

[Willco]

:lol

Someone once tried to convince me that American life was more fulfilling in the 50's and 60's. They were my age. I asked how they knew this, or if they could prove it. Their response? "Look at the TV shows and movies from that era! They just seem happier, more fulfilled!"

... Yeah, closet domestic abuse and lack of civil rights = happier middle class white people. Yay!

 

[xsarien]

This whole topic is about America. Don't deny it. Besides, you're right....I've never heard an American talk about world history.

Thanks to our educational system, your average American knows very little about it, that's probably why.

 

[G4life98]

... Yeah, closet domestic abuse and lack of civil rights = happier middle class white men. Yay!

fixed

 

[Phoenix]

The reason I believe this is just because of how society is now a days. Back then, you never had to worrry about things such as gang violence, sex before marriage, STDs, kids respected their elders ALOT more, etc. Although I have heard that Canada is the most un-religious nation in the world.

Because of how society is now a days? Lets see before 'these days' we had slavery, mass genocides, 2 world wars, lynchings, segregation based entirely on skin color, open blatant racism, and religious persecution on a scale not since witnessed. You STILL had gang violence back in the 60s - they just weren't armed with guns, you still had sex before marriage - it just wasn't as 'open' as it is now, you STILL had STDs - they didn't just crop up within the last 10 years, and I don't even know what to say about the elders thing with the larger number of kids doing service projects in nursing homes and such.

 

[Willco]

Thanks to our educational system, your average American knows very little about it, that's probably why.

Hell, thanks to our educational system, your average American knows very little about American history.

 

[Phoenix]

And more likely to believe in The Truth!

There is no spoon!

 

[pnjtony]

... Yeah, closet domestic abuse and lack of civil rights = happier middle class white people. Yay!

to be fair though, we still have the closet domestic abuse as well as out in the open domestic abuse. We also have a lack of civil rights...just not the same ones.

Hey, we STILL live in the 50's! What are people complaining about then?

 

[DaCocoBrova]

60-70 years ago deeply religious Southerners were hanging blacks in trees and burning them alive. Even the people that didn't commit lychings showed up to the events like it was a fucking party, and took home body parts as souvenirs. Those black citizens never felt safe in the neighborhoods they grew up in, even when they were growing up.

Violence is always a problem, but I think people miss the boat when they say lack of religious faith is inherently linked with how violent a society is (not that Naked Shuriken was specifically saying anything of the sort). All those evil atheists in Western Europe.....yet they're astounding less violent than we are.

Bingo!

 

[Cauliflower of Love]

Mino, if that's the case then I'm sorry that makes you just as "dumb" and "ignorant". Or in this case, narrow-minded.

Organized regligion isn't a bad thing, it's the extremists inside said religions that take whatever dogma they have and twist it around to sit their own twisted needs. Say someone saying they killed someone because "God told me too".

It's also those that follow blindly that give any religion a bad name, it's fine to be a Catholic, or whatever sect you choose to follow. You should question your faith though, you need to know for yourself if it's your path. There are certain things in the Bible (or any Holy scripture) that don't apply or the meanings have changed. For instance, I don't think my wife would enjoy being beaten so she knows her submissive role in the household.

If you want to believe Jon Voight is your ruler of the universe so be it. It's not my place to say you're right or wrong. What you believe is what you believe. Doesn't make you any less "stupid" or "ignorant" as someone who believes that the is a God on the other side to take them to their Heaven. Only one way to find out if this is true, unfortunate thing is that there's no one free phone call from the otherside to find out who's right or wrong.

Besides, Jon Voight did create on thing heavenly...... Angelina Jolie..... drooooool.

See, non believers typically take a logical path to things. Like, is it possible that someone who killed a person and repented can get to heaven, yet someone who had premarital (consensual) homer anal sex and doesnt repent goes straight to the depths of hell?

The little I know from religion(christian/catholic related) is illogical. The more I hear "explanations" as to why they are they way they are the less and less plausible it becomes. And typically illogical contradictions that you stand by unquestioned makes you stupid.

" 2+3 = 6 ! I know it does, and I believe it! "

That'd be stupid.

 

[Gattsu25]

I'm not even sure how you've formed this hypothesis. On what are you basing this 'God-lessness" on?

presses SUBMIT REPLY button

 

[megateto]

"Look at the TV shows and movies from that era! They just seem happier, more fulfilled!"

I'm going to keep this one, and it will be right there with:

-Do you have moon in Spain?

Please, do not forget about the PhD student who two weeks ago explained one of my lab partners (all of us working on population genetics) the complex mechanism that is a video-rental service.

Well, we wondered why there was people like that over there, but if you are telling me that not only they don't have a clue about the rest of the world, but lack basic USA history skills...

And we thought that our educational system was bad...

Sorry for the OT...

 

[xnipx]

See, non believers typically take a logical path to things. Like, is it possible that someone who killed a person and repented can get to heaven, yet someone who had premarital (consensual) homer anal sex and doesnt repent goes straight to the depths of hell?

The little I know from religion(christian/catholic related) is illogical. The more I hear "explanations" as to why they are they way they are the less and less plausible it becomes. And typically illogical contradictions that you stand by unquestioned makes you stupid.

" 2+3 = 6 ! I know it does, and I believe it! "

That'd be stupid.

And you know 2 + 2 = 4 because someone else told you so right? You believe what you want to believe everyone is entitled to have their own opinions. You just choose to believe in the explanations of math because you have faith in the people who created it and their knowledge. You wouldnt know how to count or use numbers if someone else didnt tell you how.

 

[Christoff Yurievich]

Like, is it possible that someone who killed a person and repented can get to heaven, yet someone who had premarital (consensual) homer anal sex and doesnt repent goes straight to the depths of hell?

I know someone who was sexually abused by her step-father. He's catholic, so he thinks that just because he went to confession and told a priest about it he's ok. Would God really say, "You know, that was a pretty foul thing you did there but since you said you're sorry, it's ok. Come on in!"?

 

[Willco]

I know someone who was sexually abused by her step-father. He's catholic, so he thinks that just because he went to confession and told a priest about it he's ok. Would God really say, "You know, that was a pretty foul thing you did there but since you said you're sorry, it's ok. Come on in!"?

Of course! God is down with confession like that, y'know what I'm sayin'?

... but the Jews! We've got an elevator for them. And it only goes down!

 

[pnjtony]

And you know 2 + 2 = 4 because someone else told you so right? You believe what you want to believe everyone is entitled to have their own opinions. You just choose to believe in the explanations of math because you have faith in the people who created it and their knowledge. You wouldnt know how to count or use numbers if someone else didnt tell you how.

ummmm......where to start.......

well the number system we mortals have devised goes like this 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 and so on. This is man made. You can physically see where the number four lies in the grand scheme of things.

If you John has two smilies ( ) and Jessica has two smilies as well ( ) and they decide to combine them you can plainly see they have a combined total of <---that's four!

See if you use the numbering system I pointed out earlier and just apply a number in succession to each smily, then you can PLAINLY see that John and Jessica have a combined total of four smily faces.

It wasn't because someone told me they had four and i blindly believed them...I could see it with my own two (count em two) eyes.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

It's not so much that it's more "Godless" as non-reliant on it, which weeds out the "Sunday morning Christians" who do it for social standing and in some cases a "Repent and Get Out of Hell Free Card", then do it all over again during the next week.

If anything, the number of born agains and people discovering religions of all types have increased as of late; although this maybe because of a larger pool of non-religious families from which to draw from.

 

[pnjtony]

OR.....due to national tragety

 

[Hitokage]

And you know 2 + 2 = 4 because someone else told you so right? You believe what you want to believe everyone is entitled to have their own opinions. You just choose to believe in the explanations of math because you have faith in the people who created it and their knowledge. You wouldnt know how to count or use numbers if someone else didnt tell you how.

All other "you don't have the slightest fucking clue what you are talking about" comments aside.... ever heard of a proof?

 

[Cauliflower of Love]

And you know 2 + 2 = 4 because someone else told you so right? You just choose to believe in the explanations of math because you have faith in the people who created it and their knowledge. You wouldnt know how to count or use numbers if someone else didnt tell you how.

Nope.

Math doesn't change. The words your use to protray it do. Like said above.

They just need to be taught what + does. I could call that a monkey, and i could call "equals to" anals to , and then :

monkey anals to


Someone is told a sin is a sin because someone else believed they were spoken to by the creator. There's no reasoning behind it.

 

[BuddyC]

Of course! God is down with confession like that, y'know what I'm sayin'?

... but the Jews! We've got an elevator for them. And it only goes down!

:lol

 

[Dilbert]

You're not being fair on the original poster. You should be aware that there is no way that he can possibly satisfy - on an internet messageboard, no less - a claim of such enormous scope. Certainly, he can provide some historical evidence (or 'data', as you call it), but this still won't justify his claim in any way. That doesn't mean, however, that his question isn't worthy of any consideration.

I think there is a big difference between asking the question, "Do you think this is the most godless generation?" and seeking people's opinions...versus asking the question in the title of your post, and them making the claim that in fact this IS the most godless generation. The original poster clearly has a position on the answer, as evidenced in his later posts.

As you point out, it's a BIG claim, and finding evidence to back it up IS a big job. The easy way to avoid this is to either a) limit the scope of your theory to what you can prove or b) pose the question without an answer at the same time.

Finally, on the "data" front -- as far as I'm concerned, if something cannot be measured, you don't have very much to discuss since it's all going to boil down to "perceptions," which are all valid on their face, but not comparable. Certainly, there are plenty of historical situations where numerical data would be very hard to come by. (Exact number of deaths due to the Black Death, anyone?) However, he was comparing the 1950s to the present-day...and I suspect that some kind of data would be available.

 

[Overseer]

If you wanted John Kerry to win then you're an aetheist. <<<----Popular Opinion from my area


So basically I am ungodly because of that fact.

 

[xnipx]

What I am trying to say is there is nothing engrained in our minds saying what is right and what is wrong. You are taught certain things and you CHOOSE to believe them based on what is presented to you. If you choose to believe something because you feel like it is valid it doesnt give anyone else the right to call you dumb. I know nothing about math other than what is taught to me by someone else, or what I read in books so I believe it because I feel like it is right to me, and if I choose to believe in God that doesnt make me dumb. Even in math and science there are many different ways of explaining different things, and choosing to pick one way or the other doesnt make people on opposite sides any dumber or smarter than the other. If I choose to believe in ancient writings about religion that doesnt make me any dumber than somebody who chooses to believe in ancient writings about math and science to explain certain things.

 

[Hitokage]

What I am trying to say is there is nothing engrained in our minds saying what is right and what is wrong. You are taught certain things and you CHOOSE to believe them based on what is presented to you. If you choose to believe something because you feel like it is valid it doesnt give anyone else the right to call you dumb. I know nothing about math other than what is taught to me by someone else, or what I read in books so I believe it because I feel like it is right to me, and if I choose to believe in God that doesnt make me dumb. Even in math and science there are many different ways of explaining different things, and choosing to pick one way or the other doesnt make people on opposite sides any dumber or smarter than the other. If I choose to believe in ancient writings about religion that doesnt make me any dumber than somebody who chooses to believe in ancient writings about math and science to explain certain things.

Here's the funny part about math and science... you don't have to believe anything. In mathematics, you must provide each logical step in getting to any principle. Check the back of a college calculus book to see the "we're not making this shit up" section. In science, everything is a provisional conclusion made with data, procedure, and analysis laid bare so that anyone else with the proper time and equipment can repeat the work to confirm or disprove it. To this day hundreds of scientists continue to test Einstein's theories to see if he was wrong. Skepticism, not faith, runs the show here.

 

[Chipopo]

Boy, I sure hope this nonsense of equating a "belief" in science to a "belief" in religion doesn't start to become a trend.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

Nah. The next one will be even more godless. Then the one after that will be more godless. Then the one after that, and so on, and so on, etc. Eventually, there will be no more god(s).