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[GillianSeed79]

I really didn't mean to kill this discussion off with my own off-topic personal baggage. I have a knack for doing this kind of thing

By all means ignore the last page. Here, I'll start off things again.

I often use the phrase son of a bitch. Isn't that like dividing by zero?

 

[Partial Gamification]

Isn't that like dividing by zero?

No, because son-of-a-b is not undefined nor infinite.

 

[SmokyDave]

For the sake of clarity, I would like to make it clear that I am not interested in debating moderation policy. We are not going to treat "dick" or "prick" in the same manner as actual slurs, nor are we going to allow the usage of slurs like "bitch" or "cunt" or "faggot" as freely as some posters would evidently like.

So with that said:

I think that one possible point of disconnection is that I (and I suspect Opiate, though I have not asked him) differentiate between "slurs" and "insults." Not every word that is insulting, even words that are gendered in some way (and I agree with Karsticle's argument insofar as his reasoning for "dick" being gendered goes), is necessarily a slur. While "dick" is mildly insulting, it does not possess the social or historical venom to make it rise to the level of a slur. The mere fact that it is gendered does not mean that it it is therefore equally as offensive as a slur like "faggot" or "cunt".

Where does 'twat' stand? It's not gendered in common usage, being equally applicable to men and women. There are other uses too (I twatted him for twatting the ball over the fence, the twat).

I don't think 'faggot' belongs with 'cunt', 'twat', 'cock', 'prick', 'knobhead' or 'dick'. It's closest relative would be 'nigger' to my mind.

 

[THRILLH0]

Like I said in the Ugly Stewart thread, male demeaning words among others should be bannable too. Otherwise it's hypocritical.

:lol this is gaf dude. Mods don't give a flying fuck if you call someone a retard, let alone prick.

Hell you can get away with calling someone a brainless moron because they believe in god but don't dare use an insult that's associated with the fairer sex.

 

[Mumei]

Where does 'twat' stand? It's not gendered in common usage, being equally applicable to men and women. There are other uses too (I twatted him for twatting the ball over the fence, the twat).

It is mildly gendered insofar as it does technically refer to female genitalia, but it is around the same level as "dick."

Someone else from UK-GAF PM'd me asking about this, actually. I had thought it was mentioned in the topic.

 

[THRILLH0]

The job of the moderation staff is to encourage positive discussion and community contributions while discouraging things that make the community less pleasant, less welcoming, and otherwise less good than it could be.

We don't want GAF to be a community where it's okay to talk shit about people... as long as they're women, or as long as they're fat, or as long as they don't speak English, or as long as they're mentally ill, period. We don't want GAF to be a community where it's okay to try to push the boundaries of how rude and offensive the things you call people are. Just in general, this is not a place where it's okay to be rude and abusive to other people.

It's really not that hard to treat other people right. I really, honestly don't think we're asking too much of people.

Then how do you justify mods constantly turning a blind to "retard", a word far more of a slur than bitch is?

 

[nckillthegrimace]

Then how do you justify mods constantly turning a blind to "retard", a word far more of a slur than bitch is?

The allowance of retard has always seemed bizarre given the litany of other ignorant and vile nonsense that's actively discouraged.

 

[Akainu]

*Also, why is it wrong for gendered insults for women to be used but if a girl gaffer referred to a guy as a dickhead, cock, prick i doubt people would bat an eyelid.

The mods are all unabashed misandrist you know. They don't care what you call men. With all the that male privilege and what not.

I call everyone everything. He's a bitch, she's a dick everyone is an asshole it's all cool.

 

[The Anti-Monitor]

Some people should remember than in this forum at least gendered insults towards women have especially negative connotations as women are still seen as strangers and "the other" in the boy's clubs that videogame forums tend to be.

 

[cutmeamango]

For the sake of clarity, I would like to make it clear that I am not interested in debating moderation policy. We are not going to treat "dick" or "prick" in the same manner as actual slurs, nor are we going to allow the usage of slurs like "bitch" or "cunt" or "faggot" as freely as some posters would evidently like.

So with that said:

I think that one possible point of disconnection is that I (and I suspect Opiate, though I have not asked him) differentiate between "slurs" and "insults." Not every word that is insulting, even words that are gendered in some way (and I agree with Karsticle's argument insofar as his reasoning for "dick" being gendered goes), is necessarily a slur. While "dick" is mildly insulting, it does not possess the social or historical venom to make it rise to the level of a slur. The mere fact that it is gendered does not mean that it it is therefore equally as offensive as a slur like "faggot" or "cunt".

They are all slurs. All. Slurs.
To whom? Offensiveness isn't a innate value of a construct of symbols/phonemes.

This: "not possess the social or historical venom to make it rise to the level of a slur." makes no sense at all. 'Slur' is not a step in a gradation of terms.
The argument of "it is a patriarchal society thus insults directed or referred to women are oppressive in nature" makes more sense, even if oppression is an attributed value, but we can live with that.

Although, personal opinion here, it is the worst way of doing things. You are looking for balance or equality in your manners?

 

[Ezalc]

I'll follow the rules and try to refrain from posting it but I don't agree with the decision at all.

 

[Zoe]

The Madonna thread made me realize I don't know what else to call someone when they're a bitch. I honestly can't think of a synonym that encompasses all of the qualities in one word.

 

[blame space]

that's what makes words good

 

[Future]

Bitch is an interesting case. It's all over tv and I thought widely considered as a more basic insult. I'd argue slut has more venom when used as a slur. Cunt and faggot are on an entirely different level

 

[Seraphinianus]

i have been banned for bitch, but never dick, dickhead, cock, cocksucker, etc.

I guess the "secret rules" thing works well for evilore/mods/the community somehow. Alternatively, you could just make the rules 100% clear so people know what they're signing up for.

But it would most likely piss off the users and viewers to have a rule like "Gendered insults for women result in a ban; gendered insults for men: A-Ok!"

 

[malingenie]

I am coming to terms with a society that will yell at you for using shock words, even if you use them sporadically and without hate. I don't like it and have resisted it in the past, but that that is probably where we are heading.

Spoiler

fucking pussies

 

[nVidiot_Whore]

It seems like you just need to try not to say nasty things about people, on this forum. (people from the forum, or random people that are topics here like celebs)

And that is especially true of females.

It's not difficult to avoid.

And you just sort of have to let go of the fact that tons of insults do go unnoticed.. just because someone got away with insulting you in a thread, doesn't mean you won't find yourself banned for doing the same in another thread. It's sometimes hypocrisy or selective modding.. or perhaps it's just what they did or didn't notice..

Either way... keep the insults to a minimum and you'll be fine.

 

[pigeon]

I guess the "secret rules" thing works well for evilore/mods/the community somehow. Alternatively, you could just make the rules 100% clear so people know what they're signing up for.

In my experience, attempting to strictly define rules causes even more arguing about rules than just saying "The rule is don't be a jerk and if you find this rule vague and hard to define that's kind of on you."

 

[Seraphinianus]

actually, they could codify it if they wanted to take the time (it would take a while and probably involve lots of infighting), but the vague stuff is just sufficient for the purposes of the board, which is fine.


i don't care about the overall rule structure style, but it was annoying to get banned for "bitch" when it seemed to fit the context and knowing that I've probably been tagged "sexist" by mods. And this whole "bitch = bad, things that refer to men = ok" thing comes off as a very dubious application of sociological ideas. Especially the idea that bitch attacks womanhood while "dick, cock" etc. don't attack manhood and that this can't be questioned or argued about or even given an inch of respect from people who are commonly found in these gender debate threads. whatever. i let mod sort em out

 

[apocalidiot]

Hell yeah I do

 

[lupinko]

I just tell everyone that they like Domino's pizza.

The greatest insult of all, just like Dr. Pepper.

 

[Mudkips]

When I'm in road rage mode I use "bitch" and "bastard" for the respective genders.

Bastard isn't gendered.

For the sake of clarity, I would like to make it clear that I am not interested in debating moderation policy. We are not going to treat "dick" or "prick" in the same manner as actual slurs, nor are we going to allow the usage of slurs like "bitch" or "cunt" or "faggot" as freely as some posters would evidently like.

So with that said:

I think that one possible point of disconnection is that I (and I suspect Opiate, though I have not asked him) differentiate between "slurs" and "insults." Not every word that is insulting, even words that are gendered in some way (and I agree with Karsticle's argument insofar as his reasoning for "dick" being gendered goes), is necessarily a slur. While "dick" is mildly insulting, it does not possess the social or historical venom to make it rise to the level of a slur. The mere fact that it is gendered does not mean that it it is therefore equally as offensive as a slur like "faggot" or "cunt".

Dick and prick are every bit as much slurs as the others.

 

[Seraphinianus]

Bastard isn't gendered.

bastardess

Spoiler

ok, i made that up

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

Some people should remember than in this forum at least gendered insults towards women have especially negative connotations as women are still seen as strangers and "the other" in the boy's clubs that videogame forums tend to be.

GAF tends to fall on either extreme. Sometimes the people around here seem genuinely gender blind. Then sometimes.... damn.... you just have to think "do the people on here EVER interact with the other gender?" I will say that female Gaf has been guilty of this as well, though certainly less since you guys ARE a minority around here.

 

[pigeon]

Especially the idea that bitch attacks womanhood while "dick, cock" etc. don't attack manhood and that this can't be questioned or argued about or even given an inch of respect from people who are commonly found in these gender debate threads. whatever. i let mod sort em out

There are quite a few people in this thread who are agreeing that "dick" is a patriarchal attack on the masculine ideal.

 

[Seraphinianus]

There are quite a few people in this thread who are agreeing that "dick" is a patriarchal attack on the masculine ideal.

wait...this thread is 5 pages.

goddamnit, i need to pay attention before opening my...fingers

 

[Apath]

I understand bitch. What I do not understand is cunt. Calling a man a cunt doesn't imply he is being weak, feminine, or emasculating him. Seriously, cunt is interchangeable with dick, asshole, etc. Or as a more extreme version of twat, where twat can mean stupid or dense, and cunt adds being mean.

Or maybe twat is a gendered slur and I am just not aware of it. I was using the word for years before I knew it meant vagina.

 

[Mumei]

Dick and prick are every bit as much slurs as the others.

I realize that not everyone differentiates between words that are "pejorative" and words that are "slurs", but for me the basic difference is that in the case of the latter, the words in question are connected to larger patterns of (and reflect) marginalization of a particular group of people. I understand the inherent logical consistency behind the idea that calling someone a dick is similar to calling someone a cunt, as both are ostensibly implying that penises or vaginas are bad. But because (social context) dick is not connected with any larger pattern of marginalization (or otherization or discrimination), I do not think of it as a slur.

I think perhaps a somewhat analogous situation would be with differentiating between racism and prejudice. Racism is systemic and institutionalized, and these patterns create a racial hierarchy through their effects. Prejudice is reflective of an individual's thoughts and beliefs. So in this conception, if a minority behaves in a discriminatory manner against a white person, it may be reflective of prejudice (or bigotry, if you like), but it does not reflect racism.

The primary problem with the above analogy, I think, is that, "One reason why, in general terms, whites and people of color cannot agree on racial matters is because they conceive of terms such as "racism" very differently. Whereas for most whites racism is prejudice, for most people of color racism is systemic or institutionalized," and this means that there are probably quite a few people who will reject both conceptions. But I hope that I have at least adequately explained how I am approaching this.

 

[blame space]

but isn't the best way to combat that marginalization to strip the words of their "weight" rather than not say them? doesn't banning them contribute to their power?

 

[flippymittens]

I personally do not, I do not even ask women out other than on FB lol. I stopped doing that because like 8 women rejected me and/or felt harassed by me so I stopped.

I think the best thing to do is probably think about how the other person would feel before you say something.

That said I personally am disgusted by our society making a huge deal of some forms of discrimination while ignoring blatant forms of discrimination such as lookism, ageism, and heightism.

I mean making fun of someone's physical appearence is considered fair game in modern society while making fun of someone's fictionally constructed race is not.

I would say that racism falls under lookism and that it is less acceptable to make fun of skin tone than it is to make fun of asymmetry.

 

[Omegasquash]

Just use words like asshole and shithead.

They're not gender specific.

 

[Mumei]

but isn't the best way to combat that marginalization to strip the words of their "weight" rather than not say them? doesn't banning them contribute to their power?

I think that you do not defang words by reinforcing their negative qualities. In other words, I do not think that teenage boys calling each other fag and faggot all the time defangs those words or disconnects those words from their status as a slur for gay men. Instead, the ubiquity of the term as a casual insult instead heightens its status as a word reflecting a pariah state.

Or even if a particular group succeeds in making in-roads to reclaiming a slur (e.g. the n-word for black people, or queer for gay people), those words still retain their ability to hurt when they are used for that purpose.

So, while I would agree that ironic in-group usage can help to reclaim a word, I do not think that this therefore strips the word of its power to hurt. And I also do not believe that going the opposite route of making the word ubiquitous as an insult strips the word of its power; I think it only compounds the effect that it has.

 

[blame space]

but once you consider it "OK" for ironic or in-group use isn't that pretty much the same thing as the teenage boys example you used? making it exclusionary just reinforces its power and ability to hurt.

EDIT you know i'm probably wrong. maybe i just don't get to say words unless i'm gay or black or a woman. that's probably ok. i'll shut up now.

 

[nVidiot_Whore]

It's just really too bad fag and faggot were associated with hatred of homosexuals.

Outside of their intended meaning as a slur, they are just awesome sounding swear words to me.

Too bad they were never just synonymous with asshole or idiot or whatever.

 

[Mumei]

but once you consider it "OK" for ironic or in-group use isn't that pretty much the same thing as the teenage boys example you used? making it exclusionary just reinforces its power and ability to hurt.

I am not sure I have understood your comparison, so could you please elucidate?

 

[nVidiot_Whore]

Teenage boys usage of fag and faggot relates to the homosexual slur meaning.

At least, it often clearly does..

It's like calling a white persona wigger and pretending that isn't completely offensive to black people. "What are you upset about, I'm basically calling a white person a nigger. Relax!" Right.. because you aren't attempting to put someone down by associating them with a negative sterotype.. surrree..

IMO, similar at least.

 

[flippymittens]

I think that you do not defang words by reinforcing their negative qualities. In other words, I do not think that teenage boys calling each other fag and faggot all the time defangs those words or disconnects those words from their status as a slur for gay men. Instead, the ubiquity of the term as a casual insult instead heightens its status as a word reflecting a pariah state.

Or even if a particular group succeeds in making in-roads to reclaiming a slur (e.g. the n-word for black people, or queer for gay people), those words still retain their ability to hurt when they are used for that purpose.

So, while I would agree that ironic in-group usage can help to reclaim a word, I do not think that this therefore strips the word of its power to hurt. And I also do not believe that going the opposite route of making the word ubiquitous as an insult strips the word of its power; I think it only compounds the effect that it has.

And...
If someone walks up to me and calls me ugly or another offensive term... If I get picked on which I and many other people in this world have been, we get over it or some people fight it I guess.
I think it is insane to expect society to give one group preferential treatment in terms of insults.
Why should I care that someone is discriminated against for being a different gender or being homosexual unless I myself do it or witness it.

To say certain words should not be allowed to be uttered is ridiculous imo. If society wants bigotry to stop just pay unattractive people or whatever to be biggots. Alot of the reason it all continues is because it is seen as edgey to say forbidden words and what not.

Heck if someone paid me to make bigotry seem lame or annoy people as a bigot I would do it.

I think the current methods of dealing with racism, sexism, etc. need to be rethought is just what I think.

 

[Devolution]

And...
If someone walks up to me and calls me ugly or another offensive term... If I get picked on which I and many other people in this world have been, we get over it or some people fight it I guess.
I think it is insane to expect society to give one group preferential treatment in terms of insults.
Why should I care that someone is discriminated against for being a different gender or being homosexual unless I myself do it or witness it.

To say certain words should not be allowed to be uttered is ridiculous imo. If society wants bigotry to stop just pay unattractive people or whatever to be biggots. Alot of the reason it all continues is because it is seen as edgey to say forbidden words and what not.

Heck if someone paid me to make bigotry seem lame or annoy people as a bigot I would do it.

I think the current methods of dealing with racism, sexism, etc. need to be rethought is just what I think.

What.

 

[blame space]

I am not sure I have understood your comparison, so could you please elucidate?

i'm really foggy today, i apologize. i don't know what i'm trying to say, i just don't want words to continue to hurt people. i like words.

 

[flippymittens]

What.

I am just saying life is unfair, if you are different there will always be a group of people who do not like it.

I mean not everyone is borne with high IQs and being "stupid" is considered to be a terrible thing. Why if it is not someone's fault?

Society in general suffers from lookism, and heightism as well and I do not see those going away.

I am not saying you do not have the right to complain over sexism, racism, etc. I just feel there are better ways to stop it.

I am saying that if you put out a negative image of racism, sexism, etc. rather than make it seem taboo, than it would help alot more.

 

[Devolution]

I am just saying life is unfair, if you are different there will always be a group of people who do not like it.

I mean not everyone is borne with high IQs and being "stupid" is considered to be a terrible thing. Why if it is not someone's fault?

Society in general suffers from lookism, and heightism as well and I do not see those going away.

I am not saying you do not have the right to complain over sexism, racism, etc. I just feel there are better ways to stop it.

I am saying that if you put out a negative image of racism, sexism, etc. rather than make it seem taboo, than it would help alot more.

We already put out a negative image of those who are overtly racist/sexist/homophobic and even penalize them as a society, it does not make the problem go away. Nor does it tackle instutionalized racism, accepted mainstream stereotyping or those with money/fame who get to espouse terrible racist or sexist statements. If you think it's as simple as "making racists look uncool", then I don't even.

 

[Vermillion]

The Madonna thread made me realize I don't know what else to call someone when they're a bitch. I honestly can't think of a synonym that encompasses all of the qualities in one word.

From the Political Animals Facebook page:

And for those of you wondering, Political Animals isn't a bad show.

 

[flippymittens]

We already put out a negative image of those who are overtly racist/sexist/homophobic and even penalize them as a society, it does not make the problem go away. Nor does it tackle instutionalized racism, accepted mainstream stereotyping or those with money/fame who get to espouse terrible racist or sexist statements. If you think it's as simple as "making racists look uncool", then I don't even.

Well it is already pretty condemned... I do not see why we do not tackle heightism, or or go more into lookism beyond skin tone.

 

[pigeon]

I am saying that if you put out a negative image of racism, sexism, etc. rather than make it seem taboo, than it would help alot more.

The best way for us to fight racism and sexism on this board is to just ban people who say racist and sexist stuff. Murdering people is taboo, too, but it doesn't inspire people to do it just to be cool, because there are actual consequences.

 

[flippymittens]

The best way for us to fight racism and sexism on this board is to just ban people who say racist and sexist stuff. Murdering people is taboo, too, but it doesn't inspire people to do it just to be cool, because there are actual consequences.

True but I see alot of people call others stupid or ugly (when an article with pictures is posted) on this board.

Is that not a form of discrimination as well.

Why are some insults over uncontrollable things allowed but others are not?

 

[Devolution]

True but I see alot of people call others stupid or ugly (when an article with pictures is posted) on this board.

Is that not a form of discrimination as well.

Why are some insults over uncontrollable things allowed but others are not?

Sometimes mods miss stuff but if you personally insult someone you're basically asking for a ban so I don't see your issue here.

 

[blahblah...blah]

Here's a question - fanny in the US means arse, but in the UK it means vagina. So calling someone a fanny is a gendered insult in the UK. So can we ban the word fanny?

 

[Vermillion]

Here's a question - fanny in the US means arse, but in the UK it means vagina. So calling someone a fanny is a gendered insult in the UK. So can we ban the word fanny?

US dominant, son.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

True but I see alot of people call others stupid or ugly (when an article with pictures is posted) on this board.

Is that not a form of discrimination as well.

Why are some insults over uncontrollable things allowed but others are not?

Help me to understand your ultimate aim, here. Do you think it's a problem that people have free reign to insult short people, as you've suggested? Or do you think that because those are allowed to occur, racism/misogyny/other prejudices that are especially frowned upon here should also be ignored in some desire for supposed equality?

To rephrase this in a more succinct manner, are you desiring more crackdown from the mods across the board, or is this a means to an "I want to be able to say the n-word without getting banned" end?

 

[UrbanRats]

I actually don't insult people at all on GAF, it's someone else's home(as in: a private space i'm invited into) and i try to respect its rules as best as i can.
Irl i don't speak english so different words have different weight, but generally i use the equivalent of "dick head", "piece of shit" and "shit", every once in a while "son of a bitch", all for men and women alike.. which doesn't make much sense, but it's not like i really think about the meaning of an insult when i use it, it's similar to a mantra, a sound i'm wired to use when mad.
Infact, i thik using something made up like "you papawakooker!" would have the same weight, for me, it's just a sound i correlate to the emotion, there's nothing wrong with being the son of a prostitute, nor does being a "dick head" makes any logical sense, especially if directed at a woman; these kind of insults are very much not personal and just something out of habit, suff i've heard as a kid and used ever since without much thought put into them.

Now, personal insults are a different thing, and i don't throw them out lightly at all, as they are related to the person i'm talking with and not generalizations with a group, and can cut deeper.