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[Shiggy]

They never explained what the monks were getting from ruling Earth.

True, why did they choose to come to Earth?

 

[funkystudent]

Still catching up.

So far this episode with the pope is a great super Moffat-y episode.


Curious if it sticks the landing. See you in a 20 minutes.

 

[WhatWeLeftBehind]

Funny how many people want to blame Moffat for this. That H.Bomberguy video has gotten people in the mood for a good old fashioned Moffat pile-on.

You want to blame someone? Blame Toby Whithouse, the same guy who ruined the underwater ghost two parter in series 9. Also, don't give me any guff about Moffat setting the tone. As a headwriter he isn't known for doing rewrites. That was always more Davies's style.

 

[Boem]

Really really liked this three-parter, even with the messy middle part.

Just to mention one thing I really liked in this episode (and a couple of the previous ones), I really like them not hiding the political undertones. The Doctor (while pretending he joined the monks) ranting about humans not learning anything from history, like fascism, the Doctor calling that last room literally 'Fake News Central', Trump's image showing up when the Doctor is trying to rewrite the Monk's version of history (at the point where every other image is just a Monk)...

Brilliant stuff. Maybe I've been reading too many Phil Sandifer articles about Who, but I always love when Who gets rebellious towards the real world. One reason I'm still hoping that, some day, Charlie Brooker will finally write his Doctor Who episode.

As for Moffat hate - I really don't get why people keep comparing him negatively towards RTD, especially given the incredible cringeworthy lows of that era. I still think he's brilliant, even with his faults and missteps here and there. I've sworn off biting every time that stuff comes up, but man, Who fandom can be so incredibly negative most of the time. Focus on what it's doing well, and there's a lot to enjoy. And I don't mean you should say you enjoy every episode if you don't - I don't enjoy everything myself - but man, so much complaining all the time. Even on episodes, like this one, he didn't even write. Sometimes I don't get how it can fill pages of a thread devoted to a show made by a man who's been running it for years and years now. At some point, you know what you're going to get and if you should care about it.

In the end, this is just an episode of geeky British children's television about a dystopian world in which the bad space monks won, with some good jokes, some great moments, amd a lot of digs against Trump (again, kids tv!). At the very least, I'd say that's pretty fun.

 

[tomtom94]

You want to blame someone? Blame Toby Whithouse, the same guy who ruined the underwater ghost two parter in series 9. Also, don't give me any guff about Moffat setting the tone. As a headwriter he isn't known for doing rewrites. That was always more Davies's style.

I'm going to go with little from column A, a little from column B. Moffat has rewritten Harness' last two episodes to the extent he got a co-writer credit and I find it hard to believe he didn't have a strong hand in this one to make sure the story arc was carried through.

Equally Whithouse has written bad stuff before (Vampires in Venice anyone?) and I think either he wasn't given the full picture of the preceding episode or he just dropped the ball on the Monks.

 

[Boem]

Equally Whithouse has written bad stuff before (Vampires in Venice anyone?)

Vampires in Venice is honestly one of my favorite episodes of the Smith era. Not even kidding. Hilarious, amazing visuals, great location work. Just the Doctor being out and having a fun adventure, and, if I remember right, the first time the show established how Rory would react to weird space adventures. The cast really gelled in that ep, and you could tell Smith was having the time of his life. The plot, of course, was straightforward Who, but executed extremely well I thought. It was all about Smith, Amy and Rory just playing off each other. The opening scene where Smith crashes Rory's stag party is a classic, as is that later payoff where the Gondola guy is wearing Rory's stag shirt. The baddies are good, classicly over the top evil fun, and Smith geeking out when facing sexy vampires is just great. Lots of great moments.

Sorry for going on. TL;DR, Vampires in Venice is one of the underrated ones.

 

[tomtom94]

Vampires in Venice is honestly one of my favorite episodes of the Smith era. Not even kidding. Hilarious, amazing visuals, great location work. Just the Doctor being out and having a fun adventure, and, if I remember right, the first time the show established how Rory would react to weird space adventures. The cast really gelled in that ep, and you could tell Smith was having the time of his life. The plot, of course, was straightforward Who, but executed extremely well I thought.

I rewatched it recently and it still feels to me like there are two ideas - "they're vampires but actually aliens" and "we are the last of our species" and they don't work together all that well. Whithouse was given a lot to do in that episode, of course; it being Rory's proper introduction and patching things up with Amy and continuing the Silence arc and all the rest of it.

 

[Boem]

I rewatched it recently and it still feels to me like there are two ideas - "they're vampires but actually aliens" and "we are the last of our species" and they don't work together all that well. Whithouse was given a lot to do in that episode, of course; it being Rory's proper introduction and patching things up with Amy and continuing the Silence arc and all the rest of it.

Oh I agree that the plot is light in this one, but I feel like that's intentional, and it's definitely not the focus of the episode. The aliens were meant to be throwaway, and the Silence thing is just a couple of lines. That's not really what the episode is about, it's written as a fun comedy romp in history, and it achieves that with flying colors to me (with, indeed, Rory's first real introduction, which works tremendously).

But hey, that's just me. Just one of those eps that always makes me happy. It can't always be the large dark series wide schemes, you need a bunch of light character pieces inbetween. And the comedy is on point.

Edit: (sorry if I come across as suddenly coming down on every opinion that doesn't happen to be positive, after that earlier post. Not my intention, it's totally fine that you don't like it, and I can see why it wouldn't work for anyone - I was simply reacting since it really is one of my favorites. I'll just shuffle off now).

 

[WhatWeLeftBehind]

I'm going to go with little from column A, a little from column B. Moffat has rewritten Harness' last two episodes to the extent he got a co-writer credit and I find it hard to believe he didn't have a strong hand in this one to make sure the story arc was carried through.

Then start believing. The reason why Moffat was credited last week was because he did the last draft of the script according to Harness. Any time Moffat isn't credited the only thing he really does is something like the final scene of the episode.

According to an interview Harness did, Whithouse and his script were being developed seperately before the production(I.E. Moffat) decided to link the three episodes together. Anything regarding plot in the individual eps is all on the credited writers however.

Give this podcast a listen to get some insight. Harness talked about developing his episode and talks about the process of how the ideas come up and who writes what on Who.

http://pexlives.libsyn.com/eruditorum-presscast-the-pyramid-at-the-end-of-the-world

 

[AHA-Lambda]

Liked the episode, but a couple of holes for me:

So why didn't the propaganda machine thing fry Bill's brain like the Doctor said it would then? Just cos of the power of love and mum? (seriously I hate the cheesy stuff like that this show does at times)

Also, if people forgot the monks were there then why does Bill and the Doctor remember?

 

[thefro]

Liked the episode, but a couple of holes for me:

So why didn't the propaganda machine thing fry Bill's brain like the Doctor said it would then? Just cos of the power of love and mum? (seriously I hate the cheesy stuff like that this show does at times)

Also, if people forgot the monks were there then why does Bill and the Doctor remember?

I think the Monks can only modify real memories, so since Bill's memories of her mom are imaginary they can't touch them.

The "people forgot this happened" is sort of a Doctor Who trope at this point.

 

[Beaniedude]

Eh, didn't really feel it. I enjoyed the first episode of the monks but not the other two

 

[Kevin]

Eh, didn't really feel it. I enjoyed the first episode of the monks but not the other two

Yeah the first episode had some really good dialogue and writing along with some decent twists and good visuals. The other two while not horrible just felt really flat. Without even looking, I'm going to assume that Moffat wrote the first episode and had very little to do with the other two episodes.

Also next week's "Empress of Mars" episode looks pretty mediocre but I am hoping that I am wrong.

 

[iMax]

Pearl's performance with Peter in this episode, particularly right before the regeneration scene, was incredible.

 

[Dryk]

Once again we were promised truth and consequences, but the boxes remained empty.

 

[Fuu]

That was alright, ended up being the bog standard fascism stuff in a 1984 for kids way, but I appreciate how tight it was after the messy one last week. Great first part, bad middle and ok end. I felt like they could have done more on the Monk's side in the third part, they almost felt like villain stand-ins during the conclusion and it wasn't clear exactly why they went through all the trouble with Earth.

Didn't mind the regeneration fake out as I knew that would be the case with them teasing it so much in the trailers.

 

[Santiako]

The end was kind of a fart, but I liked the rest of the episode.

 

[mightynine]

Started out strong, fizzled into nothing. First clunker of the season for me.

 

[aHebrewMenagerie]

Probably the best directed so far, really enjoyed it, except for the power of love bullshit.

Highlights were the Doctor's fakeout, and the last few minutes with "Apalling Hair"

If this episode carried the momentum from the first 15 minutes, this could have been an AMAZING episode

 

[Bluth54]

I thought the ending was a little weak but overall it was a pretty good episode.

 

[somedevil]

I did like the call back to a past episode for her memory of her mom to work.

 

[ghstwrld]

don't really buy into the idea bill would sacrifice the earth for the doctor tbh; feels a lot like clara committing suicide by jumping into the doctor's time line i.e., an emotional response the show hasn't earned

 

[Bluth54]

Has the Doctor ever explained regeneration to Bill? She probably had no idea what was happening when he was starting to glow yellow.

don't really buy into the idea bill would sacrifice the earth for the doctor tnh; feels a lot like clara committing suicide by jumping into the doctor's time line i.e., an emotional response the show hasn't earned

I don't think Bill (or anyone) knew how totally the Monks would take over the Earth.

 

[GodParticle]

Felt like a 3-parter condensed into 40 minutes. The sappy music didn't work at all, either

 

[Mariolee]

Really liked the episode. Only part I didn't like was the resolution, but I'm a sucker for power of love stuff so I can forgive it.

Missy, Bill, and the Doctor gave out some incredible performances this episode too. I'm gonna truly miss this cast.

 

[hamchan]

I did like the finale of this three-parter. Good acting from Peter and Pearl. I think it helps that I didn't expect much of consequence even if Moffat was hyping it up. Don't believe him ever!

Don't really know how Bill survived the brain meld when the Doctor said she would die but ok, happy ending I guess.

 

[paradox121]

I feel like I liked the episode in spite of how frustrating it was. There are so many aspects that could have been explored more that end up just fizzling out. If nothing else, after three episodes of building them up, having the Monks zoom off into space because a couple of humans got tetchy with them is really disappointing. I'm pretty sure they don't even speak to any of the main cast.

The weird thing is that, on reflection, each of these three-parts feels like it should have been an entirely separate two-parter of its own, mainly due to how disjointed they feel. Extremis could have been followed up with another thriller-type episode, perhaps with the Doctor trying to avoid repeating the same mistakes Groundhog Day style. Pyramid could have had another episode cranking up the tension and with a greater sense of impending war. And then Lie of the Land could basically have been split down the middle - have part one be Bill trying to figure out what's real against the backdrop of a 1984 dystopia, and then end in the cliffhanger of her shooting the Doctor. Then come back and make part two the resistance fight, perhaps even seeing how the Doctor recruited his army, becoming a figure of hope etc.

The AV Club review really nails the problems with the episode. As it points out, memory wipe or not, people died because of the Monks and it all just gets shrugged off as people being dopey. As I say though, I still can't help but like the episode, mostly due to the acting chops of the leads and a general love of soul-crushing dystopias.

 

[Android18a]

Probably my least favourite of the three part episodes to be honest.

I'm not sure what it was, but I think my biggest issue was that it didn't really have any sense of scale. Sure we had a few quick shot of monk statues around the world but other than that, it didn't really feel like the whole world was in peril. We saw a handful of human characters all episode, usually in fairly sparse or small locations, and it just didn't really feel like Earth had been taken over much. A little more world-building in the first half would have helped if they could have grounded the invasion a little better.

Didn't care for the resolution either, felt like a cop out ending to me. Kind of disappointed because I really enjoyed the first episode and the second wasn't too bad despite some wonky acting. This one just felt really amateur hour to me.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

This was pretty lame.

The reasoning behind consent wasn't good and there was no explanation behind how the monks could give the doctor his sight back.

Seems weird to have so much build up for a damp squib.

 

[mrklaw]

Liked the episode, but a couple of holes for me:

So why didn't the propaganda machine thing fry Bill's brain like the Doctor said it would then? Just cos of the power of love and mum? (seriously I hate the cheesy stuff like that this show does at times)

Also, if people forgot the monks were there then why does Bill and the Doctor remember?

My thinking was that they're relying on her brain for the source of the original psychic link, so they can't fight back as hard?


The 'everyone forgot' was unnecessary to me. It would arguably have been more powerful to have everyone remember. Bill talking about making sure it never happens again and then the Doctor coming back with examples of how we never learn so we're still probably screwed

 

[wetflame]

I'm not sure what it was, but I think my biggest issue was that it didn't really have any sense of scale. Sure we had a few quick shot of monk statues around the world but other than that, it didn't really feel like the whole world was in peril. We saw a handful of human characters all episode, usually in fairly sparse or small locations, and it just didn't really feel like Earth had been taken over much. A little more world-building in the first half would have helped if they could have grounded the invasion a little better.

I like to explain this away by tying it in with the scene where Nardole sees no monks guarding the pyramid and then tells the others there were about a dozen there - the monks' actual forces on the ground are limited and they're using the transmission to make it seem as though they have a much stronger hold on the Earth than they do. Once the transmission is stopped, they don't have the grip they needed to resist attacks from the humans and so flee. It was essentially a skeleton crew maintaining order rather than an invasion force, keeping everyone believing "this is how bad it's always been".

 

[ClivePwned]

Well, I liked the last three episodes more than the space suit one or Knock Knock. They weren't perfect and full of Moffatisms (really, really convoluted explanations why something heartbreaking has to happen and characters have no choice. But it was mostly pulled off in a good way so that plot holes (like the hungover guy last week) didn't irritate me. And for the first time ever in the series, the Love conquers thing actually made a lick of sense.

next week, Ice Warriors. I hate the screechy voice of the queen (the whispering voices of classic Ice Warriors was always a thing that set them apart) but I did like how the bone shattering sonic weapons seems to have been kept.

 

[hamchan]

I will say these monks weren't worth 2 episodes worth of buildup.

 

[PaulloDEC]

next week, Ice Warriors. I hate the screechy voice of the queen (the whispering voices of classic Ice Warriors was always a thing that set them apart) but I did like how the bone shattering sonic weapons seems to have been kept.

Yeah, the female IW's voice is a bit disappointing; it's just a generic monster voice that could've come from any old creature.

The weapon effect is interesting though; I think it walks a strange line between disturbing and hilarious:

 

[Kneefoil]

Really glad we finally got some good scenes for Missy/Master this episode. Really looking forward to Ice Warriors, too. We haven't seen enough of them in NuWho.

Bill's growing on me more and more as well. Wasn't very impressed with her at the beginning of the series, but she's been really good for a while now.

The episode itself was mostly good. I agree that the ending was lame.

 

[Joqu]

I enjoyed it a whole lot more than the second part of the three-parter, but neither of them came close to the initial episode which is a bit of a bummer. The monks just ended up being a huge disappointment, did they even have any dialogue in the 3rd episode? Because I don't remember any.

But yeah, I still thought it was good.

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

Yeah the first episode had some really good dialogue and writing along with some decent twists and good visuals. The other two while not horrible just felt really flat. Without even looking, I'm going to assume that Moffat wrote the first episode and had very little to do with the other two episodes.

Also next week's "Empress of Mars" episode looks pretty mediocre but I am hoping that I am wrong.

Moffat wrote Extremis
Peter Harness and Moffat wrote The Pyramid at the End of the World.
Toby Whithouse worte The Lie of the Land.

If the episodes feel disjoined, it's probably because it had three different writers.

I don't know, the whole three parter felt just a touch disappointing.

 

[takriel]

So this whole thing could have been avoided if the Doctor and Nardole (two individuals with super high intelligence) had taken some precautions prior to entering the contaminated lab, instead of just running out of the Tardis. Seriously, how dumb was that?

 

[Tizoc]

Funny how it took me a while til I realized that the Monks could act like a callback to The Master's decaying form during the 70s era.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

Moffat wrote Extremis
Peter Harness and Moffat wrote The Pyramid at the End of the World.
Toby Whithouse worte The Lie of the Land.

If the episodes feel disjoined, it's probably because it had three different writers.

I don't know, the whole three parter felt just a touch disappointing.

I think that the episodes feel disjointed because they the strongest episode had nothing to do with the others. The monks entire simulation was to determine humanities weaknesses so that they could plan the perfect attack to which there would be no counter.

Episode two reveals said attack is dependant on monitoring one lab where something goes wrong and reality altering magic that required a true sacrifice of freedom. Then episode 3 revealed that they ran simulations of the entire history of humans but thought it best not to have people guarding their headquarters and the end solution was love rather than sacrifice. I'm more inclined to go with what paradox said. The arc could have made for 3 interesting two parters.

 

[Team Filler]

Ugh, didn't particularly care for that end, Craig reversing the cyberman effects through the power of parental love was more believable.

 

[Mr. Bad Example]

They never explained what the monks were getting from ruling Earth.

They didn't, did they? A friend of mine tried to handwave this away by saying "They wanted to control humanity", but that's a goal, not a motivation.

Look, I'll accept unfathomable/unknowable/obscure drives from a really weird alien race, like a Lovecraftian group of fungi or something...but if your alien species looks like humans who didn't moisturize for a couple of thousand years and walks around talking perfectly comprehensible English, then I'm going to need to know a little more about why they want to rule the world than "because reasons".

 

[The Hobo]

What was the point of setting up that using the machine would kill Billie, only to have her walk away completely unscathed? No stakes, no consequences. What a poor end to the storyline.

 

[Protome]

I enjoyed these last two episodes, even if they weren't as strong as the rest of the season. I always have a soft spot for Doctor Who's ham fisted handling of social issues

Spoiler

Fear isn't consent. Fake news.

It really didn't make any sense at all though that the monks ran simulations on how to take the planet including the Doctor in them but apparently never took into account their propaganda wouldn't work on him or that given there were only a handful of them on Earth, a few people could just walk in and take them out.

They didn't, did they? A friend of mine tried to handwave this away by saying "They wanted to control humanity", but that's a goal, not a motivation.

Look, I'll accept unfathomable/unknowable/obscure drives from a really weird alien race, like a Lovecraftian group of fungi or something...but if your alien species looks like humans who didn't moisturize for a couple of thousand years and walks around talking perfectly comprehensible English, then I'm going to need to know a little more about why they want to rule the world than "because reasons".

Humans have invaded other countries for less. The monks invading humans for nothing more than "well we wanted to add Earth to the list of planets we run" isn't that weird.

 

[Blader]

I liked this one, it was my favorite of the three parter.

Next week's looks pretty shit though. I didn't even have to look it up to know it's a Gatiss ep.

 

[The Elite]

And that three parter started out so well too. I actually didn't mind most of this episode but that resolution was terrible.

 

[Davide]

Next week's looks pretty shit though. I didn't even have to look it up to know it's a Gatiss ep.

Hopefully it's his last Doctor Who episode.

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

Yeah, the female IW's voice is a bit disappointing; it's just a generic monster voice that could've come from any old creature.

The weapon effect is interesting though; I think it walks a strange line between disturbing and hilarious:

Meat Cube-rizer!

also the episode was alright for about 2/3, but then decided to have a change of heart for some reason. It really felt as if they had hard-changed the ending to suddenly have Bill walking around right after the supposed dramatic high. It was weird. Also, they did not establish motive for the monks. I think it was more meant to be a 'doctor deal with fake news' thing, but that's not really possible since these were probably filmed before the Brexit vote. So, why would that be a thing now?

 

[Razmos]

The only reason that Bill was dying was because the monk's mind was fighting back right?
So when she overpowered it with her imagination of the mum she never got to know, it couldn't fight back.

That's why she survived. I thought that was pretty obvious.

Also every scene with Missy in this episode was just pure amazing. Really well shot, written and acted.

 

[Type40]

Oh boy, that was a waste of 3 episodes. This was a worse version of The Year that Never Was. At least we have 2 episodes with classic villains up next.