GodParticle
Member
Would be funny if they do kill off clara and leave it ambiguous as to whether it was her or a zygon
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Doctor Who Series 9 |OT| Let Zygons Be Zygons
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Skyward Sheep
Banned
Thought the episode was fine, nothing too special. It had both ups and downs, but judging from some of the reactions here you'd think it'd killed your dog or something.
ClivePwned
Member
well, the pile of fur next to the TV proves it. Either than or I need to brush it more often.
when the Zygons kill someone, they all dissolved into a puddle of Steven Moffat's hair.
Agreed.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
So, anyway, yeah, that was pretty subpar. The Doctor had like all the effect of a Doctor Who standee. He just kinda walked into scenes, stood there, and scowled at things ineffectually. The worst being the raid on Zergistan or wherever. Firstly: No way he rolls like "Try not to kill a bunch of them" as if its fait accompli (he's the PRESIDENT OF THE WORLD so far as they're concerned, why isn't he throwing weight. This Doctor LOVES to throw weight.) Secondly, no way he signs off on a plan that consists of "Everybody run up on a church front door, and then stand there to be talked out of getting Osgood by obvious false copies."
Basically, the entire scene is completely, 100% bullshit. AND it's unnecessary, because you could simply have the Doctor decide to bail to the town BY HIMSELF as a means to beat UNIT to the bombing, only to find out the Zygons have already abandoned it after killing a bunch of people, and left Osgood under the floor. So that way you have a Doctor who is still in character, is actually proactive and employing his own agency, and you completely sidestep that uninvolving, poorly acted horseshit.
The rest of the episode is more or less okay: Slow-paced setup that doesn't really hit the notes it quite wants to hit, but is at least setting up a decent part two (hopefully). But holy shit, everything having to do with the Doctor from the second he arrives in that staging area from the moment he has the conversation with Osgood is just ass.
Basically, the entire scene is completely, 100% bullshit. AND it's unnecessary, because you could simply have the Doctor decide to bail to the town BY HIMSELF as a means to beat UNIT to the bombing, only to find out the Zygons have already abandoned it after killing a bunch of people, and left Osgood under the floor. So that way you have a Doctor who is still in character, is actually proactive and employing his own agency, and you completely sidestep that uninvolving, poorly acted horseshit.
The rest of the episode is more or less okay: Slow-paced setup that doesn't really hit the notes it quite wants to hit, but is at least setting up a decent part two (hopefully). But holy shit, everything having to do with the Doctor from the second he arrives in that staging area from the moment he has the conversation with Osgood is just ass.
APZonerunner
Member
This is the core problem with the 'world president' thing, which is 100% a classic Moffatism, he does it all the time (though RTD was guilty of this a few times, never as often) - it's a funny gag that somehow has become an actual thing, but as an actual thing it doesn't serve the story at all and doesn't make any sense - because you're right, it either sucks any tension out of the Doctor/UNIT relationship or it makes it nonsensical - they either listen to him and it's dull, or they don't and... well, it doesn't make sense that they wouldn't take his orders.
Generally the way UNIT stuff has been going with the Doctor I dislike recently; the sort of hero worship thing. The Black Archive makes a modicum of sense, that they'd bring companions in, interview them and wipe their memories (but at the same time I'm not sure I buy it: Would Rose, bought in by UNIT, divulge any of her life with the Doctor as is suggested? I don't really think so) for intelligence... But it's often in the little details - like the UNIT safehouse tonight having a portrait of Hartnell on the wall. When did this happen? In the past, the Doctor was part employee, part secret weapon, part alien threat to UNIT, and they kept him at a precise sort of distance to balance the three; the relationship was never cosy. Even when there were characters in that wheelhouse who adored him, like the Brig, or Martha, or Osgood, the organization itself would be more cautious. They would salute him, they would listen to his words, but they wouldn't always obey and they certainly wouldn't worship him. The Sontaran Strategem isn't a great episode, but it's fairly comparable to this, and I think about how the Colonel in that episode is visibly awestruck by the Doctor, but very quickly comes to plainly be a bit put off by him, and later rejects him and goes against his suggestions; I like that - but the official portraits of him and world president thing undermines that, I think. They're dialling his mobile and giving him a private jet and I just think it's less compelling, massively. New Who has even done this to the old UNIT retroactively, in a respect - like, the relationship between the Doctor and the Brig was quite often antagonistic, but that's been papered over now. They were Best Buds and will be forever, etc etc.
GodParticle
Member
If this weren't doctor who, I'd have dropped it years ago. I'm just holding out hope that someone new will take over before I can't take it anymore
Ugh, seeing Gretchen Egolf in this reopened up the Journeyman wounds.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0251098/?ref_=tt_cl_t2
woah! i knew she looked familiar but couldn't place her
R_thanatos
Member
i'm conflicted by this episode ..
Loving the premise , good jokes at the start ..
And then .. what ? i really thought that clara a unit member would never let that child in that situation and then the whole "i've got to check my things" was forced ..and then it was revelead to be part of some plan and i was happy because that above felt way off.
The whole play on psychology in order to weaken the soldiers in a freaking good idea , but it wasn't that cleverly done
Overall it wasn't that great of a episode , but it wasn't bad either...the effectiveness of this arc will depend on next wekk performance.
Why the convenient prisoner in the basement of the church with no guards ? Where did all the zygons go after they zapped everyone ?
Loving the premise , good jokes at the start ..
And then .. what ? i really thought that clara a unit member would never let that child in that situation and then the whole "i've got to check my things" was forced ..and then it was revelead to be part of some plan and i was happy because that above felt way off.
The whole play on psychology in order to weaken the soldiers in a freaking good idea , but it wasn't that cleverly done
Overall it wasn't that great of a episode , but it wasn't bad either...the effectiveness of this arc will depend on next wekk performance.
Why the convenient prisoner in the basement of the church with no guards ? Where did all the zygons go after they zapped everyone ?
Will need a rewatch before I have a verdict on this one, but a couple of observations:
Was the village in Whateveristan the same village from Matt Smith's final episode? On the Christmas planet?
I wish the Zygons' weapons weren't just some generic lightning bolt. Like, couldn't they have blasted people with gas or spores or something? Something that fit with their organic look?
If the mummies boy soldier weren't already dead, he'd be so fired. How utterly dumb can you be?
Was the village in Whateveristan the same village from Matt Smith's final episode? On the Christmas planet?
I wish the Zygons' weapons weren't just some generic lightning bolt. Like, couldn't they have blasted people with gas or spores or something? Something that fit with their organic look?
If the mummies boy soldier weren't already dead, he'd be so fired. How utterly dumb can you be?
R_thanatos
Member
-Don't know the day and place of birth
-Don't know the name of the favorite toy
Sure let's follow you !
*My sides*
lol
How have you missed the obvious story arc they've been hammering into us all series?
"You mean like a HYBRID!!!????"
What story arc are you referring to?
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Every episode this season has referred to a hybrid at least once.
"Hybrid" is this season's "Bad Wolf."
Nobody knows how it's gonna tie into the finale, but everyone can tell "hybrid" is going to have something to do with it.
The only thing funnier than frothing Moffat rage is hilariously wrong Moffat rage.
Re: the church scene, while I'll admit it wasn't great (I suspect Harness got caught up on trying to make us root for both the Doctor and Rebecca Front's character and forgot that the soldiers needed compelling character motivations as well) I will just say that letting soldiers die for a possible tactical/intelligence advantage is kind of Twelve's thing.
I will say that this episode reminds me a lot of Kill The Moon, clearly Harness has a style, for better or worse. I think that's probably why I for instance liked it and others didn't, tbh.
Re: the church scene, while I'll admit it wasn't great (I suspect Harness got caught up on trying to make us root for both the Doctor and Rebecca Front's character and forgot that the soldiers needed compelling character motivations as well) I will just say that letting soldiers die for a possible tactical/intelligence advantage is kind of Twelve's thing.
I will say that this episode reminds me a lot of Kill The Moon, clearly Harness has a style, for better or worse. I think that's probably why I for instance liked it and others didn't, tbh.
Freewheelin'
Member
Sounds like the first 35 years of Doctor Who
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Oh, no doubt. And that's why I was willing to see it through as it played out as opposed to rejecting it outright on its face. But usually when Twelve lets someone die, it's because it either furthers the plan he's already got in place, or it's an inevitability for the situation and he lets it happen as a means to spot whatever crack in the seams he needs to exploit.
Neither of those happened in this story, though. There was no real plan, and letting those people die (or letting the Zygons die, as he was prepared to do) would have actually gotten him what he wanted ultimately. Which is why I compared him to a cardboard standee. He's just there letting bullshit happen.
Moffatt better have something AMAZING up his sleeve to make me ignore the fact that the Doctor has been the source of several important hybrids already in the new series alone
tonysidaway
Member
This is almost word for word what I said after the Time Lords exiled Doctor Who to Earth in the seventies. I've never been fully on board with Doctor Who stories that lack any element of time travel, and the Unit strand exemplifies that. That said, I find Moffat to be the ideal show runner from my perspective. He's a great writer by any measure, and on top of that he really gets that the show is first and foremost about a mysterious, time travelling alien.
Morgan Jeffrey of Digital Spy liked this episode a lot, and I tend to agree with his take. This is an episode for the big kids. The political element is handled with great skill, and it's a pleasure to see the venerable old show is still capable of covering serious topics occasionally.
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/tv/s7/d...s-a-superb-sci-fi-fable.html#~psMb04mC7y1C0kk
And now Clara is gone, replaced by evil, sexy Bonnie. Pardon me for being surprised that this thread isn't filled with joyful whoops. Or do all the Clara haters think this is going to be like that Fred/Illyria deal in Angel?
Didn't like it very much and I changed my mind about the format. I was excited about double episodes at first, but they are all almost like finales and lack build-up. They should've put fluff episodes in-between and divide the Arya story between beginning and end of the season.
edit: the political message is great though.
edit: the political message is great though.
ClivePwned
Member
Shots fired. Five Rounds Rapid.
That's interesting, because I didn't make the association that the author was the same, but I was still making comparisons to Kill The Moon for another reason:
Every character of importance, bar the Doctor, is female. The most important non-female character? Probably that one soldier who struggles to believe that his mother is a Zygon, unless I've missed one. The Zygons even almost exclusively adopt female forms.
It's awesome. Tempered slightly by the fact that it does appear that Osgood is the only competent member of UNIT!
I'm fully expecting Kate to have been more aware of what was going on than she appeared to be at the end of this, though
Speculation for part 2:
There was a box given to the Osgoods in the intro; I suspect that contains the gas outlined in various asides early on. I'm expecting there to be some situation where they have to decide whether to release the gas around Osgood, without being certain if she's human or Zygon
paradox121
Member
I thought it was fine. Definitely had its problems but also had a lot going for it. I kinda wish Who GAF had been a thing back during Fear Her because going by the reactions to this ep people must've been exploding.
I love the expansive feel of the episode. Splitting up everyone across the globe (even if those CG mountains weren't the best) just made the scale of everything feel so much bigger. It also gave Kate the opportunity to actually feel like a legitimate UNIT leader for once, and I kinda like the somewhat poorly explored theme of these being the young, rebel Zygon kids.
I think the episode's main problem, and perhaps why everyone freaked out about it initially, is that Harness clearly doesn't care all much about writing for the Doctor. In both of his episodes now he's basically just been a figurehead that people keep around only to ignore. On the one hand, it's kinda nice to have an episode driven by the side characters, and there were times when it just flat out felt like some kind of UNIT spin-off, but stuff like the apparently now infamous church scene suffer precisely because Harness seems to forget about who/what the Doctor is. In both Kill The Moon and this he just tends to write him as being extremely passive and hands off, which, when in both instances the entire Earth is in peril, just ends up feeling odd.
I love the expansive feel of the episode. Splitting up everyone across the globe (even if those CG mountains weren't the best) just made the scale of everything feel so much bigger. It also gave Kate the opportunity to actually feel like a legitimate UNIT leader for once, and I kinda like the somewhat poorly explored theme of these being the young, rebel Zygon kids.
I think the episode's main problem, and perhaps why everyone freaked out about it initially, is that Harness clearly doesn't care all much about writing for the Doctor. In both of his episodes now he's basically just been a figurehead that people keep around only to ignore. On the one hand, it's kinda nice to have an episode driven by the side characters, and there were times when it just flat out felt like some kind of UNIT spin-off, but stuff like the apparently now infamous church scene suffer precisely because Harness seems to forget about who/what the Doctor is. In both Kill The Moon and this he just tends to write him as being extremely passive and hands off, which, when in both instances the entire Earth is in peril, just ends up feeling odd.
tonysidaway
Member
It appears the Digital Spy review wasn't a fluke. This is a rather widely praised episode.
I've looked around at a lot of different places, and GAF is the only place I've found with such a widespread tepid reaction. That's what baffled me so much. Even Gallifrey Base was, by their standards (they are unbelievably negative towards everything), mostly positive about the episode. The IMDB user score is (though it's with fewer votes than the other episodes so far) 8.6, which is just 0.1 points from the highest this series (The Magician's Apprentice/The Witch's Familiar both have 8.7).
Exterminieren
Banned
I must admit I'm baffled by all the reactions here. I thought this was a remarkably assured, convincingly dark and intriguing set-up for the two-parter as a whole, but some of you guys seem almost personally offended by how bad it was.
The biggest complaint that I'm seeing is that UNIT were terrible at their jobs which, yeah, no shit, it's UNIT.
The biggest complaint that I'm seeing is that UNIT were terrible at their jobs which, yeah, no shit, it's UNIT.
WrenchNinja
Member
Honestly, I just really dislike modern day invasion episodes. Sontaran stratagem, death in heaven, army of ghosts, etc. There's just something about them that bores me.
To be fair to this, this isn't a wide scale invasion yet but as soon as Unit or Torchwood or the army gets involved in things I start tuning out
To be fair to this, this isn't a wide scale invasion yet but as soon as Unit or Torchwood or the army gets involved in things I start tuning out
Stallion Dan
Member
Awful episode. That is all.
ClivePwned
Member
They can't even keep the dates straight in their heads. That's the second time they've joke about that when Kate says things like 70s or 80s. The 1970s UNIT stories were meant to be set a few years in the future, which is why you get Sarah in a 1975 story saying "I'm from 1980, yada, yada, yada..."
I also took the reference to the Zygon Virus UNIT had previously developed to be Harry Sullivan.
Just maybe a little bit of a dull episode, not very subtle with it's messaging and some of the acting from the extras seemed bad, but otherwise I thought the story was OK as an invasion storyline. Probably won't watch it ever again but I feel my time wasn't wasted. Hope the second half can pay off.
I must say though, I really don't care for UNIT and the people that work there. They all suck.
r/doctorwho ain't exactly hot for this episode either btw.
I must say though, I really don't care for UNIT and the people that work there. They all suck.
r/doctorwho ain't exactly hot for this episode either btw.
MudoSkills
Volcano High Alumnus (Cum Laude)
Linkin Park are going to be in the series finale. That's my Hybrid theory.
*ba-dum-tish*
Can we all discuss the drone scene and how the Zygons knew to shapeshift into that soldier's husband and child despite the fact she was nowhere near the Zygons and viewing them through a screen?
Or the quick cuts from the picture to the screen like 6 times as if people didn't understand what was happening and needed to be shown.
Thinking about it, pretty much the entire Turmezistan storyline was utter trash, the rest of the episode was good.
Ignoring the President of The World, church and drone scenes, the episode was quite decent.
Or the quick cuts from the picture to the screen like 6 times as if people didn't understand what was happening and needed to be shown.
Thinking about it, pretty much the entire Turmezistan storyline was utter trash, the rest of the episode was good.
Ignoring the President of The World, church and drone scenes, the episode was quite decent.
AHA-Lambda
Member
Well that was fucking terrible, some awful dialogue and filled with plot holes.
I give up on this fucking show.
I give up on this fucking show.
To what plotholes do you refer?
AHA-Lambda
Member
Anything to do with the zygons manipulating people.
How do they know to appear as family members of an operator of a drone that they can't see?
How can they scan people's brains for loved ones from memories but can't answer anything about them?
Why is everyone in this episode, supposed trained professionals, all hit with the fucking stupid virus? We deserve to be invaded if that's our defense!
Add on some really cringe worthy dialogue, obvious twists and for it all to inevitably be cleaned up all too nicely next week by some deus ex machina, I'm fucking done with this show.
EDIT: ah it was from the guy who wrote kill the moon? That explains a lot!
You forgot Capaldi wondering from scene to scene, standing in the background, commenting on the going on.
It is just a really terrible episode. We're back to the community theater effort of season 1, just with a bigger budget and even less of a damn given.
Woah now. I realise you're upset here, but one thing you can't argue is that the production team on S1 didn't give a damn. Those guys worked their asses off.
Was ok. A good second part could redeem it.
This post. I like it.
Beaniedude
Member
I enjoyed it.
The drone scene did miff me a bit with the Doctor not stepping in but other than that it was alright.
I'm still betting that Osgood is a Zygon insurgent. She was found way too easily.
The drone scene did miff me a bit with the Doctor not stepping in but other than that it was alright.
I'm still betting that Osgood is a Zygon insurgent. She was found way too easily.
Yeah, I take that back. They did miracles with a budget that should have been lunch money.
But Doctor Who is established now and past that. I'm fine with it being geared towards kids, but these past few seasons have just been awful in the writing / directing / editing.
It's a shame, since Capaldi has the chops to do some wonderful stuff with the series.
Whens the last time we got a Doctor Dances, Water of Mars, Doctors Wife, or The Girl in the Fireplace?
Flatline and Mummy on the Orient Express