EleventhDoctor
Banned
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Doctor Who Series Seven |OT| The Question You've Been Running From All Your Life
- Thread starter Mr. Sam
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I love you.
The episode wasn't bad, in and of itself, but as the send-off of Amy and Rory it fell short.
Honestly, I would have liked their departure more if they'd simply chosen to stop going with the Doctor. Just live their normal lives. It was a real waste of the prior episode's premise to have the whole alien invasion shit, as others have said.
It should have been about them, their lives, and them coming to the decision that it was time for them to grow up.
Frankly, the only episode I've truly liked - from start to finish - this season was Asylum. All the others have felt half-baked to me.
Honestly, I would have liked their departure more if they'd simply chosen to stop going with the Doctor. Just live their normal lives. It was a real waste of the prior episode's premise to have the whole alien invasion shit, as others have said.
It should have been about them, their lives, and them coming to the decision that it was time for them to grow up.
Frankly, the only episode I've truly liked - from start to finish - this season was Asylum. All the others have felt half-baked to me.
Well, I guess... But the Doctor does prefer to avoid paradox's like that. Plus, the whole 'knowing the future means it must happen' thing. I dunno, some of you are thinking this through way too much.
Pushes him towards Darth Plageuis territory. All this power, all that strutting around he's been doing since he was 10 about how he is the Victorious Time Lord and all and when he needs to use Time to save the people he doesn't.
EDIT: I really think that The Power of Three was a better send off for Amy and Rory.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
I agree that them coming to their own decision about leaving the doctor was a better option. Also:
Rory's dad: Go with the Doctor and see the universe!
*never sees them again*
King of the Potato People
Member
Does anyone remember in Time Crash when Peter Davison is older due to "time differential"?
The time-travel is nonsense, I try not to let it ruin my enjoyment too much.
The time-travel is nonsense, I try not to let it ruin my enjoyment too much.
Future Foundation
Member
There have been pictures of him filming w/ Vastra. Since a bit of S7 Part 2 is apparently in the Victorian era, he'll be around with the slayers. Which is awesome!
Napoleonthechimp
Member
In stories that don't involve alternate timelines/realities, I'm not a believer in paradoxes for the following reason:
The universe wouldn't allow it. My reasoning is as follows (this is copied from the Looper thread):
I have to wonder would a paradox collapse all of reality completely, or just everything up to the point that created the paradox? Maybe the universe would get stuck repeating that moment until the person made a different decision that ensured the continuation of the timeline, thus rendering a paradox impossible (because the universe wouldn't exist if it was).
The universe wouldn't allow it. My reasoning is as follows (this is copied from the Looper thread):
I have to wonder would a paradox collapse all of reality completely, or just everything up to the point that created the paradox? Maybe the universe would get stuck repeating that moment until the person made a different decision that ensured the continuation of the timeline, thus rendering a paradox impossible (because the universe wouldn't exist if it was).
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
One thing about this. Why? Why would they get tired of seeing all of infinity, with the only family outside of Rory's dad they have? It made somewhat sense when they were in baby makin' mode, but afterward, it would've made far, far less sense to me that they looked at all of time and creation, with infinite possibilities and gave it all up for a flat in Manchester. After the previous episode, they put that to bed, anyway, and the opening of the finale showed them totally at peace with traveling around still. Just chillin' reading crappy books and having a picnic and whatnot.
The Real Abed
Perma-Junior
That's it. Now I have to rewatch Silence in the Library and Forest of the Dead.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
I hope River isn't brought back any time soon. I'm getting pretty tired of her now.
I actually had a similar thought, that maybe Amy would mention "your friend Jack" in the epilogue, but Jack's time in 1930's New York is also fixed I believe.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Did I totally miss something? I thought it was made clear that River wrote it and Amy became a publisher or something and published it, and only wrote the afterward.
At least Ten went and apologized to Donna's grandfather. Why doesn't Rory's dad get some closure? Guy would've made a great companion, too. His one wish was to eat his lunch and look down at the earth.
Fixed shmixed. All it would take is like a day for Jack to run on by Amy and Rory, take them to, I dunno, DC, and let the Doctor carry them off. He can stop banging and having his blood sold to crazies for one day to do a personal favor for the Doctor's in-laws.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Yeah, well, if there's one thing the last couple seasons have had trouble with its exploring emotional reprecussions. (not that previous seasons were great at that)
Future Foundation
Member
Any time I think about "lack of emotional repercussions", I think of Joan Redfern.
King of the Potato People
Member
I did cringe when the Doctor regenerated her wrist, I didn't know he could do that!
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I didn't think that was too out of universe, I didn't even blink when it happened. River implies that its a huge deal and he's an idiot for doing it.
EDIT: Also just started rewatching Silence in the Library again and at the very beginning 10 says that deaths are important, that they help frame our lives, kind of in stark contrast to 11's hatred of endings. I think there's something interesting comparing their characters there, but I can't think of what to say about it at the moment.
I didn't understand why, did he use a whole regeneration or something?
King of the Potato People
Member
He could have tried doing that to the Master when Lucy shot him, ok maybe I'm over analysing it now.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
Perhaps 10 not wanting to go impacted 11's opinion on endings and death.
He could still tell him, the season isn't over (where as Donna leaving was, was it not?) If Moffat wanted to add actual weight to their departure, he'd have the Doctor go and explain it to Rory's dad and the fallout from that.
It wasn't a full regen, but a) it basically makes him a magic; b) wasn't necessary at all, c)I'm sure River is worried about any complications playing around with regeneration energy may bring to her 'Sweetie.'
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Maaaaan, Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead is just about everything good about Who. I love coming back to these episodes.
Future Foundation
Member
The Real Abed
Perma-Junior
Well, I would think bringing another Timelord back to life is quite a bit more energy draining than just fixing a wrist.
Who knows what actual drawbacks there are for a Timelord to heal people E.T. style (Can he only do it to other Timelords or possibly normal people or other species?) so there's probably a big reason why he's never done it before for anyone else except someone he really cares about. And a big reason for River to be really pissed off at him for doing it.
Just one of those things we don't need to know except that it's something you don't go around doing willy nilly.
I just love it when a good writer drop Tenth into a group of humans (The Impossible Planet, Silence, Midnight, The Waters of Mars, Human Nature). It's always fun and tragic, and usually hits all the right notes.
Based on her response? I'd say it's possible he did. Otherwise I don't know why she would get that angry at him over it.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
And you know that's not the last time that little trick is getting addressed.
Dammit, maharg.
EleventhDoctor
Banned
I mean technically speaking if you really want to nitpick (And I guess some people do-and Doctor Who is the worst show to nitpick, because rules and continuity take a backseat to the story being told), technically all that would need to happen is have Amy or River go in the TARDIS to a point PRIOR to Rory being sent back....maybe land in Philadelphia, go wait for Rory, pick him up, drive back to Philadelphia and then all is well.
But The Ponds were leaving-that's really all that's important-is that they left The Doctor, they're not companions anymore and they chose to be with each other.
That's it.
But The Ponds were leaving-that's really all that's important-is that they left The Doctor, they're not companions anymore and they chose to be with each other.
That's it.
King of the Potato People
Member
I've been wondering this series "who turned out the lights?"
Same here, having some problems with the emotional repercussions in this season and last season too.
All these episodes about Rory and Amy wondering about their life on earth and their life with the doctor, just to go that way feels like a waste of episodes.
And I don't know, I didn't feel sad when they left, even though I love Rory, it felt half-assed.
The fact that we don't even see Rory's father is sad, it could have added some emotions.
It's just not on par with how all I felt emotionaly watching the tenth, especialy in season 4.
All these episodes about Rory and Amy wondering about their life on earth and their life with the doctor, just to go that way feels like a waste of episodes.
And I don't know, I didn't feel sad when they left, even though I love Rory, it felt half-assed.
The fact that we don't even see Rory's father is sad, it could have added some emotions.
It's just not on par with how all I felt emotionaly watching the tenth, especialy in season 4.
I would say that about a lot of this season though. Just feels like Moffat doing whatever is "cool" while ignoring any implication.
Future Foundation
Member
I think we'll see something with both sets of Pond parents, at the very least Brian.
For a man who was in what, three episodes, he really deserves it. I just hate the way it happened because the entire season was spent building up to an entirely different conclusion: That Amy and Rory would choose of their own free will to stop traveling with the Doctor. Who really loses in that scenario? The fans who want to see the Doctor sad get to, the people who want Amy and Rory to step aside get that, the people who would like for them to make unexpected appearances every so often or at least dream about it are satisfied, and the ending is precisely what the plot lead up to.
Instead we got an unexplained angel and an experience somewhere between ripping off a bandaid and a casual shanking. Nothing said to the angel, no resolution at all, no apologizing to Brian Williams for failing to keep the promise he made 1 episode back, nothing.
"The Angels Take Manhattan" was a great episode for the Angels and a bad send off for Rory and Amy.
Dissatisfied sums up the way I feel.
Even assuming it were true, they have infinite time and can acquire another one of those wrist bands with relative ease between River and The Doctor. Then River takes one as she warps back to Manhattan and boom, there's Rory and River in time for shakes.
The need to make the choice was forced, but they still made the choice. Or at least Amy did. She could have chosen to go with the Doctor to try to find some way to break the rules but she chose definite Rory and maybe Doctor over definite Doctor and maybe Rory.
Also, he didn't break his promise. Amy and Rory live long and full lives.
Personally, I fucking love Amy and Rory and am glad to see them get an ending with finality rather than some wishy washy sentimentality-driven keep-them-coming back RTD copout. I'm also glad that ending leaves them living.
The thing about DW at this point is that you don't really buy any of the "can't do that" and "impossible" claims anymore, because they fairly arbitrarily decide when they want to ignore that. It's certainly part of the fun, don't get me wrong, but when you're sending off well-established and well-loved companions, why not play a little bit more honestly and just make it a natural parting of the ways, like has been implied over these last several episodes? What's the point about Amy talking about all the adventures feeling like running away and then River warning them this episode to never let the Doctor see you age and other similar discussion, if you're just going to turn around and create a forced parting of the ways like this?
Not to mention that the way Amy and Rory get "offed" is essentially no better than what most of the second-rate victims in the Whoverse get. It's red shirt worthy, not companion worthy.
IMO, I could have done without another Angels episode anyway. I would have preferred seeing Power of Three fleshed out into a two parter to properly address the criminally underserved final act of that episode and more naturally segue into a parting of ways.
But, wrt this episode, was there any significance to that plaque the Doctor used as a mirror just before he went to see River for the first time in this episode? They focused on the writing on the plaque for a split second as he turned away. Was wondering the significance of it.
Not to mention that the way Amy and Rory get "offed" is essentially no better than what most of the second-rate victims in the Whoverse get. It's red shirt worthy, not companion worthy.
IMO, I could have done without another Angels episode anyway. I would have preferred seeing Power of Three fleshed out into a two parter to properly address the criminally underserved final act of that episode and more naturally segue into a parting of ways.
But, wrt this episode, was there any significance to that plaque the Doctor used as a mirror just before he went to see River for the first time in this episode? They focused on the writing on the plaque for a split second as he turned away. Was wondering the significance of it.
What's wrong with this show?
The entire idea is space and time. But this season has been..
Old American Western, 1930s/40s/50s? Dinosaurs/Big Game Hunters/Cleopatra? etc.. WTF?
The writing is fine. The acting is fine. etc.. but the themes are played out american tales/scenery for the sake or attracting the american audience.
There is a reason I discovered Doctor Who just last year, early this year. It was not the same old same old I'm used to seeing on tv. I was looking for something new.
Even the Weeping Angels who are to me the best villains next to the The Silence.
I can only hope the Xmas episode redeems the show as a whole and leads into a new direction/cast.
From what I've read, while Amy/Rory were known to leave mid season
, Matt Smith is also ready to leave. I can only assume he will be there until the last 2 episodes of this season or xmas episode or at least an intro to the next depending on the transition they go with.
It's still a clever show but its just not as interesting. It's not an insult but I'd rather watch a rerun of Red Dwarf right now.
I still think Christopher Eccleston deserved a longer run and David Tennant was one of the best Doctors to date. Matt Smith might go down as one of the best (most popular [2011] ) and worst (the beginning of the end for what made the show good[2012])
Its almost like someone wrote a show about Amy and Rory as a sitcom but threw in Doctor Who to attract viewers.
As I watch the last few minutes of the recent episode, it almost feels like a British love story based on The Final Destination Movie Series.
NOW I'm ready for Lucy Liu as Doctor Watson...............
Sigh...
The entire idea is space and time. But this season has been..
Old American Western, 1930s/40s/50s? Dinosaurs/Big Game Hunters/Cleopatra? etc.. WTF?
The writing is fine. The acting is fine. etc.. but the themes are played out american tales/scenery for the sake or attracting the american audience.
There is a reason I discovered Doctor Who just last year, early this year. It was not the same old same old I'm used to seeing on tv. I was looking for something new.
Even the Weeping Angels who are to me the best villains next to the The Silence.
I can only hope the Xmas episode redeems the show as a whole and leads into a new direction/cast.
From what I've read, while Amy/Rory were known to leave mid season
I believe the original plan was for them to walk into an empty police box
It's still a clever show but its just not as interesting. It's not an insult but I'd rather watch a rerun of Red Dwarf right now.
I still think Christopher Eccleston deserved a longer run and David Tennant was one of the best Doctors to date. Matt Smith might go down as one of the best (most popular [2011] ) and worst (the beginning of the end for what made the show good[2012])
Its almost like someone wrote a show about Amy and Rory as a sitcom but threw in Doctor Who to attract viewers.
As I watch the last few minutes of the recent episode, it almost feels like a British love story based on The Final Destination Movie Series.
NOW I'm ready for Lucy Liu as Doctor Watson...............
Sigh...
It's funny because this is how I would describe their going out. It feels like a cheap grab for heart-strings when you spend the season exploring them making the choice to stop adventuring and then instead all but kill them off. Sure Amy chose, and sure, they lived happily, but to everyone else they died. The Doctor promised he wouldn't let anything bad happen to them, and then he failed to prevent the Angel from getting them one last time.
Except there's no reason that Angel should have BEEN there. That's the problem. It isn't even so much that Amy and Rory were stuck somewhere in Time never to see the Doctor again, it's that the way it happened was so contrived. "Hey we just blew up all the Angels! Except one! And as soon as it fulfills its purpose of ridding the show of us, NO ONE WILL MENTION IT AGAIN!" That, plus the aforementioned decision to discard the entire "It's their own choice" in favor of this cheap ploy is what really ruins the episode.
As I said before, if things had ended for them in The Power of Three, it would have been much better. You have The Doctor and Amy talk about it, you spend an entire episode focusing on it, and in the end, a very sad Doctor flies away from a very sad Amy knowing that he can pop back some time for crumpets but that Amy is out of his life otherwise.
Instead we get to deal with The Doctor post the tragic and abrupt loss of a companion. Boy, haven't we done that already?
Its the whole "Doctor being a God" thing. That's why she got upset.
Do you, by chance, have a tardis? Because I sure would like to have seen the whole season already too.
Dwelling in the past is something RTD did. I don't expect to see a lot of it here.
BJK
Member
I'm not so sure that the writers couldn't bring back the Ponds if they wanted to...
We have no idea how old Amy was when she wrote the last page of the book. If the book was written in 1940, she could have seen the Doctor at a later point in time without changing anything.
Likewise, while 1930s New York is TARDIS-proofed, there's no reason the Ponds couldn't just shuffle off to Buffalo and rendevouz with the Doctor there. (It's not like it's impossible to communicate, as River will be delivering a manuscript at some point.)
...
The bottom line is that Amy made her choice: her husband over the Doctor. For all we know, even if the Doctor did break them out of the past, the Angels could try to send them back once more.
I would have liked it if we had been given a short scene of River giving Amy and Rory instructions as to how / where to find a regenerating youngster in New York 20-30 years later (giving them back the chance to raise their daughter), but we didn't get that.
I'd also rather see Amy & Rory leave a message to Brian than any communication with the Doctor, FWIW.
We have no idea how old Amy was when she wrote the last page of the book. If the book was written in 1940, she could have seen the Doctor at a later point in time without changing anything.
Likewise, while 1930s New York is TARDIS-proofed, there's no reason the Ponds couldn't just shuffle off to Buffalo and rendevouz with the Doctor there. (It's not like it's impossible to communicate, as River will be delivering a manuscript at some point.)
...
The bottom line is that Amy made her choice: her husband over the Doctor. For all we know, even if the Doctor did break them out of the past, the Angels could try to send them back once more.
I would have liked it if we had been given a short scene of River giving Amy and Rory instructions as to how / where to find a regenerating youngster in New York 20-30 years later (giving them back the chance to raise their daughter), but we didn't get that.
I'd also rather see Amy & Rory leave a message to Brian than any communication with the Doctor, FWIW.
I really like River
I like River, but I also think her potential was squandered.
So, Rian Johnson wants to direct a Who episode, too.
He recently did Looper, for anyone who doesn't know who he is, which deals with time travel.
He recently did Looper, for anyone who doesn't know who he is, which deals with time travel.
EleventhDoctor
Banned
If they do, we'll hear complaints that they're rehashing that plot. If they don't, we'll hear complaints that they're ignoring The Doctor's emotions from the fallout of losing his closest companions.
If I had a TARDIS I wouldn't accept not being able to get into New York as a valid reason to never see my friend again.
That's every show, though.
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