The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Its kind of the trap of the cyclic nature of the show. You end up having to have certain repetitive plots.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Doctor Who Series Seven |OT| The Question You've Been Running From All Your Life
- Thread starter Mr. Sam
- Start date
- Status
Its kind of the trap of the cyclic nature of the show. You end up having to have certain repetitive plots.
Dr Zhivago
Member
Eh? Not sure how.
As I said earlier, Moffat's put greater focus on time travel without making it more consistent, which I think is to the show's detriment.
EndcatOmega
Unconfirmed Member
I don't think any of that is really out of character for Who.
Though I'm sure everyone is thankful for Mercy that this time there wasn't a bloody stupid singing narrator.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Goddammit Moffat you fucking bastard what the fuck at that ending.
That is the most depressing thing I've seen in Doctor Who.
Now that'd be cool. JGL for a DW Special Companion!
That is the most depressing thing I've seen in Doctor Who.
Now that'd be cool. JGL for a DW Special Companion!
Jason Frost
Member
It was a good episode, but it was really strange to see that the ending of Amy and Rory was already an idea they had used before in a webisode of Doctor Who...
Doctor Who Adventure Calendar - A Ghost Story for Christmas:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MafsgqApk0E
Doctor Who Adventure Calendar - A Ghost Story for Christmas:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MafsgqApk0E
Overall I really enjoyed the episode. However, I agree that the Amy's and Rory's send off was a bit disappointing. It appeared to me that they tried to mimic the emotions surrounding Rose's send off with the Alternative timeline/universe etc but they missed the mark.
Also, now what happens with Baby Melody? Didn't the Doctor promise to find and return Melody last season? It seems that the whole plot point has been forgotten or did I miss some timey wimey explanation for them giving up the search?
Although, I have loved all of the episodes this season there just seems to be something missing....not sure how to explain it but it just seems to me that this season needed an overarching evil which would have helped make the entire send off more emotional e.g. Bad Wolf or the Silence.
Anyways, I am really looking forward to the Christmas Special. It will be interesting to see what direction they take the show in.
Also, now what happens with Baby Melody? Didn't the Doctor promise to find and return Melody last season? It seems that the whole plot point has been forgotten or did I miss some timey wimey explanation for them giving up the search?
Although, I have loved all of the episodes this season there just seems to be something missing....not sure how to explain it but it just seems to me that this season needed an overarching evil which would have helped make the entire send off more emotional e.g. Bad Wolf or the Silence.
Anyways, I am really looking forward to the Christmas Special. It will be interesting to see what direction they take the show in.
APZonerunner
Member
This thread has always been fairly apart and different from the Who fan places, but all we're seeing right now is a very similar reaction to when Rose left. There was an outcry of how it was a disservice to her and questions and explanations of this way and that way he could go back and get her.
We all know where that led. Good luck! Moffat has proved that he does listen when people winge, too, several times - most notably the shitty Dalek design backpedal.
The showrunner can never win. Moffat kept his "good rep" on Outpost Gallifrey for about 2 weeks after his run started, but since that Dalek episode he has been progressively treated as more like the antichrist and this week it has reached a head, as bad as anything I've during the RTD era, and even people in here, a generally overwhelmingly positive thread, are moaning. It's sad. It wasn't perfect, but I felt this was a solid episode.
River is hit-and-miss and sometimes a pain in the arse, but she's his legacy, in a sense, so I get it.
We all know where that led. Good luck! Moffat has proved that he does listen when people winge, too, several times - most notably the shitty Dalek design backpedal.
The showrunner can never win. Moffat kept his "good rep" on Outpost Gallifrey for about 2 weeks after his run started, but since that Dalek episode he has been progressively treated as more like the antichrist and this week it has reached a head, as bad as anything I've during the RTD era, and even people in here, a generally overwhelmingly positive thread, are moaning. It's sad. It wasn't perfect, but I felt this was a solid episode.
River is hit-and-miss and sometimes a pain in the arse, but she's his legacy, in a sense, so I get it.
APZonerunner
Member
That's sort of my point. When you get the wider bloggers who are usually only interested in wanking off to colour-altered gifs of each episode becoming part of the chorus from OG, you know you've reached critical mass in a sense.
They're all knobs as far as I'm concerned. Fuck 'em.
WrenchNinja
Member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDCAWb1zecA&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Saw this on YouTube, got all misty eyed. I really started watching Doctor Who with series 5, so Matt and Karen are my Doctor and companion. Seeing Amy and Rory take their exit...man. Like I watched all the other nuWho series after finishing series 5 and while those exits were touching most of the time, this really hit me hard the most. Guess the idea that their adventures would end like the others never dawned on me. When Matt leaves, I don't even know if I can still watch the show...
Saw this on YouTube, got all misty eyed. I really started watching Doctor Who with series 5, so Matt and Karen are my Doctor and companion. Seeing Amy and Rory take their exit...man. Like I watched all the other nuWho series after finishing series 5 and while those exits were touching most of the time, this really hit me hard the most. Guess the idea that their adventures would end like the others never dawned on me. When Matt leaves, I don't even know if I can still watch the show...
APZonerunner
Member
Murray Gold sometimes goes a bit OTT and the mix has always been done weird on New Who, often too loud - not his fault - but his soundtrack work is generally amazing. I think the Gallifrey Track from series 3 (which is even more amazing when coupled with the live version and the audience giving every single incarnation of The Doctor love) remains my favourite. I was so worried he was going to leave at the end of the RTD era, but Moffat persuaded him to stay, and I'm so glad he did. Really hope they do one of these concerts again next year for the 50th. I'd absolutely love to hear some of the Series 6/7 music live.
sums it up quite well.
Did you even read the thing?
We accept it in other episodes because it doesn't carry that much emotional weight on its back. It's usually just a thing that gets you from point a to point b. This time was different. Two major characters were leaving the show, characters that hardly got anything cool to do in previous episodes this series and that were slowly settling on staying behind anyway. It was handled poorly. They couldn't even explain it themselves which is why it came down to Amy asking "can't we just go back" the Doctor saying "no, big paradox kaboom!" and River saying "mother, it's true" which is supposed to be enough.
Agreed. A big problem of this episode is that it wasn't about them. They just ended up as random casualties. That whole teaser intro felt unnecessary (since we saw the exact same beats happen with Rory later), the whole "collector" guy plot was unnecessary, the basement was unnecessary. Their story begins at the park and picks back up once they get to the hotel. All the stuff in between is hot air with no relevance to anything.
"not them. never them"
... yea, right. And I bet we won't ever see the Doc go and tell Rory's dad at least.
Goddammit Moffat you fucking bastard what the fuck at that ending.
That is the most depressing thing I've seen in Doctor Who.
haha what is it with that image and gifs of people on CW shows crying
Let me take it a step further: JGL is the slightly younger version of The Doctor (age 1000 rather than 1200). Giant prosthetic chin should do it.
APZonerunner
Member
I think it'll be easier next time. This era was as much of a jumping on point for people - especially Americans - as Series One was, and just as getting rid of Rose was difficult, this was too, because it's difficult to please when people love these characters so much. I imagine Amy/Rory will be the thing many compare back to for a long time to come. You really do never forget your first TARDIS team.
Completely forgot Matt had done the amazing scene where he plays the role live, and drags a kid into the 'scene'. Amazing ad-libbing, too... he's really, really good. http://youtu.be/oOlgl4k4b6I?t=2m41s
Completely forgot Matt had done the amazing scene where he plays the role live, and drags a kid into the 'scene'. Amazing ad-libbing, too... he's really, really good. http://youtu.be/oOlgl4k4b6I?t=2m41s
maybe that always happened (the doctor coming back and telling stories)? Thats what makes her go really crazy with the raggedy doctor dolls and pictures. Otherwise she only had a moment with him and might have forgotten him.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
That is what gets to me about this recent episode. There is nothing to stop the Doctor from going back, rescuing them and putting the gravestone there to make sure he goes back (which is similar to what he has done before and is also what happens with the book IN THE SAME EPISODE).
There is no paradox. It was a lazy way of explaining why they'll never be seen again.
I don't quite know why they're always keen to have the companion not only leave, but to never be contactable again in DW now. I mean, Rose, Donna and now Amy and Rory have all been not only jettisoned, but in a way that means they can never return!
I think it would be nice if there was a companion who, I dunno, maybe they come too close to death for comfort and realise that travelling with the Doctor is too much flying by the seat of their pants.
Or perhaps something like Sarah Jane, where the Doctor has a funny turn, takes a joke too seriously and their relationship just sort of falls apart in front of their eyes.
He couldn't have talked to her and then promised again that he'd be back in five more minutes, knowing that he couldn't deliver?
I think it would be nice if there was a companion who, I dunno, maybe they come too close to death for comfort and realise that travelling with the Doctor is too much flying by the seat of their pants.
Or perhaps something like Sarah Jane, where the Doctor has a funny turn, takes a joke too seriously and their relationship just sort of falls apart in front of their eyes.
He couldn't have talked to her and then promised again that he'd be back in five more minutes, knowing that he couldn't deliver?
WyndhamPrice
Member
They can't return because the actors' contracts run out and they (the people, not the character) don't want to come back.
I think some people don't realize that at the end of the day it's just a TV show and the actors are just doing a job. Karen Gillan specifically said she didn't want to come back after being on the show for 2.5 seasons, so they needed to write the show in such a way that dumb obsessed fans couldn't keep suggesting that maybe the Ponds will return (but they'll just do that anyway).
I don't see why it has anything to do with contracts. Dumb obsessive fans will suggest all kinds of stupid shit (and thanks to RTD enabling them by bringing Rose back it's not without precedent now), I don't see why it should have any effect on the show.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
The Ponds should have left in a mythos episode. Not in a random Monster of the Week. That's the only real complaint.
its odd because when Rose 'left', she really had a 'can never come back' thing going - different dimension/parallel universe whatever. Really really can't come back. And then she came back.
So in comparison, being in the same universe, just not being able to land the Tardis nearby, is hardly the end of the world.
Just treat it like the companion leaving as normal. Enjoy Smith's anguish at having Amy torn from him so suddenly, enjoy how it isn't even a question for her - of course she's going to be with Rory, even with the whole of time and space as the alternative. Enjoy how powerless the Doctor is in the face of love.
Don't nitpick the details.
So in comparison, being in the same universe, just not being able to land the Tardis nearby, is hardly the end of the world.
Just treat it like the companion leaving as normal. Enjoy Smith's anguish at having Amy torn from him so suddenly, enjoy how it isn't even a question for her - of course she's going to be with Rory, even with the whole of time and space as the alternative. Enjoy how powerless the Doctor is in the face of love.
Don't nitpick the details.
The main thing that bugged me was the way Amelia's name appeared on the tombstone. If the past wasn't "set in stone" in a way that she could add her own name, it implied the past could be changed to remove Rory's name. I think it would've been better to simply have part of the tombstone covered up (dirt? something else?) and then uncovered to reveal the name after Amy makes her exit. That would've fit the theme of the episode better.
Captain_Spanky
Member
Best justification I've read. Not sure if that was Moffat's intent, but your version reads well
Even my girlfriend who is a sci-fi nut commented she hated the constant homosexual mentions in RTD era Doctor Who and she had plenty of gay friends. You only have to read the Twitter accounts of Gatiss et al to realise Who is now a gentlemans old boys club of writers, unashamedly weeping and back slapping each other for any old tat that would have been shat upon if it appeared during the McCoy or Baker years.
Oh and Angels of Manhatten. Better. But the location filming was just a waste. You could have stuck them in Cardiff Park and said it was Central Park and a lot of people probably wouldn't have blinked, they should have more of Times Square etc.
Gay Agenda!
The first few episodes this season actually made me verbally spit out those words when the gay/lesbian references came up. (As it used to be such a funny trope with RTD that Mof has kept intact...but that people don't complain about any more)
PowderedToast
Junior Member
i want more gay in moffat who
my deviantart fanfiction:
matt smith gets anew male companion and slowly falls in love with him and suddently the male companion transforms in jack harkness and theymake love in the tardis
my deviantart fanfiction:
matt smith gets anew male companion and slowly falls in love with him and suddently the male companion transforms in jack harkness and theymake love in the tardis
Future Foundation
Member
Some people still do, but I think they call it "queer bating", which, judging by the reaction it gets from other sites (Tumblr), Moffat does it often I guess?
BattleMonkey
Member
Yea they really seemed to have wasted the whole NY setting.
JonathanEx
Member
Not a huge amount was actually filmed in NYC: they had no TARDIS/Angels, so anything with those was added in later. And to get shots for CG bits - so while the graveyard was in Wales, it was edited to have a skyline they filmed in NY.
You can easily tell what was greenscreened and what wasn't. Unlike in most Hollywood movies where almost the entire movie is shot in LA greenscreened but can pass for any city in the world with good background replacement.
Eh, I think this is more than just nitpicking of minor details. I'm not upset that the Ponds are gone and just looking for loopholes to bring them back. They had a good run and I enjoyed it, but this is Who and it's time to move on.
What I lament is the opportunity they squandered to do better storytelling with their departure.
ScreenSplitter
Member
"Oh look a lesbian couple"
"Oh look, Canton is marrying a man"
"Oh, Oswin made reference to being bisexual"
We understand Moffat. We truly do. But please stahp.
but the suggestion is that better storytelling = more time to tell it. IMO the sudden departure is good. Long goodbyes lead to Tennant's farewell world tour and can be overblown IMO.
And I'm glad the ponds didn't decide to stop travelling. In the previous episode it was clear they couldn't just give it up. So it needed to be taken away from them.
My only complaint along these lines was that it always felt like Jack became MORE gay as time went on. Wasn't the guy supposed to screw anything that moved? Not just men?
He is still way, WAY better about that than RTD.
The trick is not to regard OG as a homogenous mass. I tend to hang out in the TV section rather than the episode-specific sections, and the folks there are calm, reasonable and interesting to read. Rather than making me want to play Tomb Raider the way Tim from Spaced did.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Are we talking about Torchwood here? I just rewatched Utopia last night and Jack was hitting on everyone male and female
EDIT: Also I don't really remember any gay elements in any RTD episodes, what are people talking about?
Agreed. He's been better with keeping it subtle. RTD was screaming from the mountain tops.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I believe all you guys I just don't actually remember anything you're apparently talking about. What did RTD do?
JoshuaJSlone
Member
Exactly. Last season was built around the idea that even if a point is fixed, it might not be what it seems. Setting up a book and headstone to keep things consistent seems easier than being shot and burnt in front of witnesses.hamchan said:
Oh look, Rory and Amy are married
Oh look, the Doctor and River are married
Oh look, Nefertiti and Riddell are hooking up
We understand Moffat. We truly do. But please stahp.
You're right, but it's been ages since I've seen them, but I am re-watching them soon. It was the second time I re-watched the series that I took notice to it.
Here are the ones I definitely remember:
Jack, despite being a Moffat character, is sort of the main thing. It's as if RTD needed to force in a reference per appearance. I won't mention Torchwood since this is a Doctor Who discussion, and I've only seen a few episodes of it.
There's the elderly lesbian couple in Gridlock. There was this exchange between them and Brannigan about it that just felt very shoehorned.
Call this reaching, but there's the Master and Doctor's relationship in season 3. The Doctor and Master are supposed to be rivals, but the Doctor acts like a desperate lover. Tumblr's smattering of gif and artwork should attest to this. I get that the Doctor is the supposed last of the Time Lords, and seeing the Master could be him relieved that he's not alone.
Hot Coldman
Banned
That's just Barrowman, man was spending way too much time on those musical talent shows
That's not my suggestion though. 5 episodes is more than enough to setup and resolve the Ponds leaving IMO. Technically it has already been a longer goodbye than Tennant's farewell since that's been the underlying theme for this first half of this season.
So why couldn't the Doctor be the one to take it away from them, rather than by some utterly contrived trap that they supposedly can't be rescued from?
It wouldn't take any more time to tell a story in which the Doctor realized he had to quit the Ponds cold turkey, both for his sake and theirs. Work with that natural friction that's been highlighted in the last few episodes about the Doctor's lifestyle vs. the average 21st century human being's lifestyle, the tremendous age differential and Doctor's unwillingness to see his companions get old. It seemed the writers were building towards a confrontation in which DW has to essentially kick the Ponds out, but then they chickened out at the last second and decided to go with a sappier ending in which everybody still loves each other and there's no hard feelings.
I want to clarify (in case it needed clarifying in the first place) that I'm not at all opposed to these gay references, but I'm simply pointing out RTD's affinity for bringing it up constantly.
I did a quick search for "Doctor Who gay references" and came up with this page. It covers the entire show, from 1-10. I jumped for 9 and 10, some are reaching for thin air, but there's definitely plenty of them scattered throughout his run.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
haha what is it with that image and gifs of people on CW shows crying
They cry so good.
ScreenSplitter
Member
Oh god the feels.
- Status