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DOOM Franchise Community Thread: That's one doomed space marine!

This reminds me, I need to get around to working on my Doom maps.



If anyone's interested I'm going to start rambling incoherently about Dooms level design, the trade-offs between more open or more linear styles of level layout, and other such things. Feel free to laugh at me if you manage to get through the upcoming wall of text. I'm sure I'm gonna say a lot of dumb stuff.

The primary difference between Doom and more modern games (disregarding the 2D) is that levels in Doom are far less linear than in most modern FPS. In fact, many levels have multiple different routes to the exit, and that's not even counting the secrets! Doom also features far more open areas than most shooters today, with most levels being a combination of large rooms joined together by maze like passageways. Speaking of mazes, those were something Doom had plenty of, while you're unlikely to see mazes in any game aside from puzzle dungeon crawlers these days. Finally, one of the most notable differences in level design between Doom and more modern games is Secrets. Plenty of areas in Doom were totally concealed, with nothing more than a slightly discolored wall to mark their location. Often these areas would hold useful weapons, powerups, shortcuts, and sometimes alternate exits!

Modern FPS games (that bother with level design) take a fairly different approach. I'm going to ignore the games that quite literally shepard you through the game and make no attempt at level design aside from strategic cover and focus on ones that make a concerted effort (Borderlands 2, Left 4 Dead, etc.) The biggest feature that these modern games have that Doom lacks is verticality. Doom tried this with it's elevations, but combat is still purely horizontal. As for level layout, modern games in general have adopted the philosophy that clarity matters. If someone might have difficulty finding their way, that is considered a problem and steps are taken to fix that (such as the giant glowing arrows in the Slab Hideout in BL2). In the same vein, modern games normally make the "optimal path" for going through a level compulsory. This means that while you might have plenty of freedom of choice and movement in encounters, once you leave the encounter arena you basically have no choice in where you go next in order to minimize the chances of you getting lost. Finally, levels are now full of so many more things such as props, cover, particle effects, and loads of other visual distractions.

Skip here if you want to hear my thoughts on Doom style level design compared to modern level design.

The first thing that needs to be mentioned when talking about the merits of Doom's design philosophy is that there are multiple ways to complete any level. This is actually really uncommon, not just in FPS but in all genres. We're starting to see more of this with the coming age of the proceduraly generated Rouge-Like, but honestly it's been something of a rarity throughout all of gaming history. Traditionally it's been confined to MetroidVania, Stealth Games, and the occasional adventurous dungeon crawler or RPG. There are a few reasons for this, one of the biggest ones being that it's hard as hell to do right. It's just requires you to design more encounters, place more collectibles, and just do more work in general to create a level. Harder still, it requires you to say "I'm ok with the player missing content." because honestly that's what's gonna happen. Most gamers aren't going to go through the whole level, they're gonna head straight to the exit and leave as soon as they get there. If you have more than one route to the exit, that means they've missed everything on all those other routes. I'm not talking about missing collectibles or upgrades here, I'm talking about missing gameplay. It’s really tempting to take that awesome fight with the Beholder and the wrecking ball and put it in a place where the player can’t miss it, because you worked so hard on it and you know it’s totally awesome. It’s hard to shove that off in some corner where the player might go if they decide to go left at one point and press E in front of the right statue. However while missing that awesome fight might suck for everyone who doesn’t get there, it’s gonna be somewhat cooler for everyone who manages to find it. The question you need to ask yourself is if you’re willing to potentially let all your hard work go to waste and allow many of your players to miss out on the fruits of you labor just to provide an extra reward for the adventurous few who manage to find it.

There are more practical reasons why the open style of level layout isn’t used very much, the biggest of which being length. Length is one of those things that people see as a measure of a game’s worth. People will complain if a game only took them 6 hours to beat, and other people might hear that complaining and shy away from the game. In the eyes of many devs trying their hardest to meet a length quota without going under budget, if you’ve got an encounter you’re gonna put it after the last encounter and force the player to go through it. Whether this is artificially lengthening the game or providing more open levels is artificially shortening it I can’t say. The sad fact is that level layouts like Doom’s are a luxury, one that is often too expensive nowadays with how costly it is to make games. It was doable back when anyone with coding skill, talent, and a decent computer could make a top of the line game, but it’s not so easy now. The second practical reason why Doom style level design isn’t practiced so much these days is getting lost. Let’s face it, getting lost in games normally sucks (with the only exceptions being games like TES that are so full of content getting lost just means you’ll find something else awesome) and it’s purely detrimental to gameplay. One of the traits of a great level designer is the ability to prevent the player from getting lost without excessive handholding. However that’s honestly pretty difficult, especially when you’re in a confined space and aren’t able to use tricks like background landmarks to help give the player a general idea of where to go next. Rather than risk the player getting lost and quitting, it’s easier to make it impossible for the player to lose their way by giving them only one way to go. The worst possible scenario though is if you allow the player to miss an item that they really should have to be able to continue on in the game, but that they don’t necessarily need. There’s really no excuse for allowing that to happen and it’s just poor level design if it does, and it’s much more likely to happen in a game with more open levels than a linear game.

Now I feel like I’ve been being a little hard on Doom style level design in the past 2 paragraphs, so this one is gonna be all about the great things it can offer, because it’s seriously cool. Honestly, when done right it’s awesome, and it’s fully possible to do right while still avoiding most of the pitfalls lined out earlier. You can do things like allow the player to tailor their game experience to their own preferences without them even knowing it! Take this example; the player has to get inside a factory. There’s the front door, the sewers, and a pipe connecting to the roof. The player remembers that the previous sewer level wasn’t exactly her cup of tea, but she really loves battling the areal enemies using her jetpack. Bam! Suddenly you’ve just empowered your player with choices and made the game experience better. Also replay value from more open levels is pretty huge. Sure, a level with all the content lined up will probably contain more exciting moments the first time you go through it, but how about the second time, or the third? By giving your player the option to essentially customize their game experience every playthrough you ensure that they’ll be enjoying their fifth go at the game just as much as the first (well, almost as much). Even if they don’t know what’s coming the first time around they’ll at least be able to say “I remember I hated that fight last time, I’m going the other way.” during their second attempt. To go back to the first paragraph in this section where I talk about how an Open level design artificially shortens the play experience it’s possible to see that aspect of it as once again allowing the player more customization of their gameplay experience. I’m pretty sure this is one of the reasons why Doom just holds up so goddamned well even 20 years after its release. As a side not, if you do have the luxury of being able to pursue an open style of level design in a game you make you’re able to create the “optimal path”, which represents the bare minimum of exploration needed to finish the game, then add on plenty of other areas to explore and potential shortcuts and secrets. This both satisfies the unadventurous players and those who want something more from their games and don’t mind having to explore a little to find it. The one thing to remember about this approach is that you need to very clearly mark the “optimal path” so that the unadventurous gamers don’t get lost. This won’t impact the experience of the explorers; it just makes your game more accessible to everyone else.

Skip here if you want to my opinion on how good the map design of Doom itself is.

Well, I’ve sure been talking a lot about open level design and the pros and cons of it, but it seems like I’m forgetting something… Oh right! I need to actually talk about Doom itself! Well to get right down to it it’s good. However it also isn’t perfect, which is fairly understandable seeing as Doom itself was something of a grand adventure into the world of game design. If I had to select one thing that it consistently does badly all I’d really be able to come up with was that Romero was something of a miser when it came to information. Typically, he was very good when it came to laying out levels in a manner that both guided players towards the exit while allowing them to explore and take different routes (See House of Pain), but there were a few levels that were really bad about that (like the extraordinarily stupid Slough of Despair). I also think he liked mazes a little too much. That said he also managed to use his habit of withholding information from the player to provide some great experiences. It’s a purposeful design philosophy and one that I don’t personally think meshes all that well with open level design (allowing someone to make choices is meaningless if they don’t know what choices they’re making) but Romero was damned good at it.

As for what Doom did right… Well, basically everything else. Honestly, Doom’s level design is so good that it’s kinda hard to talk about, since it’s just easier to point out the few things it did wrong than everything it did right. Collectables and powerups were very well distributed so you almost always had exactly what you need. Secrets were hard to find, but not impossible. Romero also knew exactly how the game was supposed to be played and he laid out his encounter arenas masterfully. Just like collectables were always right where you needed them (although some took a bit of looking), fights were also always laid out so that the terrain would either provide you with the tools you needed to win an otherwise hard encounter or would turn an otherwise dull fight into a fun and challenging one. If you were in a fight against an enemy who you needed to be mobile to survive, you had the space you needed. The enemy placement was superb. Enemies placed specifically to surprise you were never anything you couldn’t handle easily if your reflexes were good enough and they never felt cheap. Another thing that was really well done about the level design in that game was the texture placement. Romero might not have always wanted you to know which way you were supposed to go, but he did want you to be able to differentiate between different areas in a level. No two sections of any map looked exactly like each other, so even with the fairly maze like design of the map it was surprisingly hard to get lost. I can probably sit here and keep thinking of things Doom did well with level design all day, but I’m gonna wrap it up.

Summary
Doom is actually a very hard game to talk about. Comparing its level design to that of more recent (good) games is unfair for both parties, since both simply are unable to do some of the things that make the other party great. Its open world level design philosophy is pretty damned cool, but sadly it also has its tradeoffs and is a luxury that few game devs are able to afford in this day and age. Disregarding it’s exploration based level design, it’s still an incredibly competently designed game.

TL;DR – Doom gud.
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
DOOM II can be atmospheric at times but that's really it.

Actually, I didn't play DOOM back in the day because I was afraid of it and its ilk of first person shooters. I was like six when DOOM came out and primarily was just bothered by not being able to see around my character in a game. That plus you fighting demons and having your remaining health determined by an exact number plus your character's face -- which seemed very fatalistic to me at the time -- made DOOM look scary as hell. I never acclimated to FPSs until Turok and GoldenEye came out. GoldenEye specifically was easier for me to handle because it had a health bar and human enemies. Even then I had to run through Duke Nukem 64 with cheats enabled. I've only been able to go back to these old FPSs in the last couple years to be honest.
 
Man fuck Plutonia Experiment. Dropped it around map 10. It's beatable for sure, but just too frustrating and cheap with its enemy placement.
I haven't played Plutonia yet, but I've currently gotten to map 21 in TNT: Evilution and it's been a smooth ride thus far. Played Ultimate Doom and Doom 2 a bunch throughout the years, but never really delved into Final Doom 'til now, and I don't have much of a reason as to why. Probably some latent lack of interest in playing content that wasn't created by id themselves, which extends to never playing the Quake and Quake 2 expansions either. Only recently started delving into wads as well, Scythe and Alien Vendetta were great fun until the final few levels where enemy spam gets to the point that levels become more trial and error puzzles than anything. Hope that doesn't become a common theme with wads from the community.
 

Raptomex

Member
You know what's really underrated? You may say Doom 64, maybe even Hexen or Heretic, what about Chex Quest? No. It's Strife. 1996. Semi-open world, id tech 1, RPG elements, incredible. Now abandonware, it should also be compatible with most Doom source ports.
 
Loved the games back in the day, even though i was exposed to them years prior... a highlight was having multiple network games running when we should have been doing school work. One of my deathmatch highlights was fooling a few people by typing "player one has left the game" in the chat and people fell for it! Not many people were fond of it at the time but Level 24 in DooM 2 made for an awesome 4 player death match map.

X-Mas DooM 2 was one of my first external wads. My favorite of all time is Simpsons DooM 2, such a classic. It was even funnier watching deathmatch recordings with the Simpsons DooM 2 wad makeover (i still have the recordings saved somewhere too).
 
You know what's really underrated? You may say Doom 64, maybe even Hexen or Heretic, what about Chex Quest? No. It's Strife. 1996. Semi-open world, id tech 1, RPG elements, incredible. Now abandonware, it should also be compatible with most Doom source ports.

Holy shit, Strife. I LOVED this game. It's not that it's underrated, because anyone that has played it would rate it very highly. It's that NOBODY has ever HEARD of this game. I loved that it was a "Doom game" with a hub world, and NPCs, and quests, and a setting that was REALLY engrossing. Seriously. I could go on and on about that game.
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
I haven't played Plutonia yet, but I've currently gotten to map 21 in TNT: Evilution and it's been a smooth ride thus far. Played Ultimate Doom and Doom 2 a bunch throughout the years, but never really delved into Final Doom 'til now, and I don't have much of a reason as to why. Probably some latent lack of interest in playing content that wasn't created by id themselves, which extends to never playing the Quake and Quake 2 expansions either. Only recently started delving into wads as well, Scythe and Alien Vendetta were great fun until the final few levels where enemy spam gets to the point that levels become more trial and error puzzles than anything. Hope that doesn't become a common theme with wads from the community.

Yeah TNT is much better. Tough, but fun.
 
Never really took a stab at these games, I finally sat down with Doom 1 to test my GCW Zero and it completely grabbed me, its very addicting, finished the first episode, the one where you walk into a pentagram and then you are in a dark room and nothing happens.

Just started the second episode and its been awesome so far.

There is a certain charm with the engine and how everything works and looks, its completely different from everything else, easy to understand the devotion and dedicated fanbase after all these year.
 

Raptomex

Member
Yeah TNT is much better. Tough, but fun.
Overall I think Final Doom is inferior to both Doom and Doom 2. The level design just didn't do it for me. But if you just want more Doom, it's great. TeamTNT also created Eternal Doom. From what I've played of it, I like it better than Final Doom.
 
*is crushed under text*

just kidding. Would love to read it but busy at work. Hopefuly get a chance soon. Love how you snagged the top of the page, haha.

Yeah, I'm quite glad I got the top myself. I'm experienced in writing walls of text on forums and getting top of a page is really conductive to actually getting anyone to read the damned things.
 
Great OP! Doom will always be one of my favorite games of all time. Have lost so many countless hours playing it.

I just beat Congestion 1024 today on Ultra Violence which was absolutely insane. It's amazing the amount of detail the mappers fit into small spaces.
 

Nerdkiller

Membeur
I haven't played Plutonia yet, but I've currently gotten to map 21 in TNT: Evilution and it's been a smooth ride thus far. Played Ultimate Doom and Doom 2 a bunch throughout the years, but never really delved into Final Doom 'til now, and I don't have much of a reason as to why. Probably some latent lack of interest in playing content that wasn't created by id themselves, which extends to never playing the Quake and Quake 2 expansions either. Only recently started delving into wads as well, Scythe and Alien Vendetta were great fun until the final few levels where enemy spam gets to the point that levels become more trial and error puzzles than anything. Hope that doesn't become a common theme with wads from the community.
I never been able to finish Plutonia myself, mainly because I kept getting distracted in one form or another. But once I get my new laptop, I'll finally see if I can beast through it.

I wonder if they ever made a WAD that lets you shoot at ponies.

Doom 64 Ex > *
Don't you need an actual Doom 64 ROM in order to play that WAD (I think there's a different one that doesn't require it)?

And speaking of WADs, did anyone ever play Back to Saturn X? Really fun with Brutal Doom.
 

120v

Member
is Doom 3 really all that bad? i know its virtually nothing like the first two games but i always wanted to play it back in the day but my PC couldn't handle it. thinking about getting BFG...
 

Raptomex

Member
I never been able to finish Plutonia myself, mainly because I kept getting distracted in one form or another. But once I get my new laptop, I'll finally see if I can beast through it.

I wonder if they ever made a WAD that lets you shoot at ponies.

Don't you need an actual Doom 64 ROM in order to play that WAD (I think there's a different one that doesn't require it)?

And speaking of WADs, did anyone ever play Back to Saturn X? Really fun with Brutal Doom.
The Absolution uses the DOOM2.WAD and has some cool extra levels. I think EX is by the same guy. Yes, you neednthe ROM to generate the wad. But EX is more of a faithful port of DOOM 64. I don't think Absolution is developed anymore.
is Doom 3 really all that bad. i know its virtually nothing like the first two games but i always wanted to play it back in the day but my PC couldn't handle it. thinking about getting BFG...
Great game. But not a great Doom game. IMO BFG edition is superior. Ramps up the action by adding more ammo pickups. Less scrounging. But DOOM 3 with sikkmod+wulfen textures looks better.
 

hlhbk

Member
Holy shit what an amazing OT! I have been amped up for this ever since the OP suggested it a while ago! Best game ever that got me into computers which led me into my career path in IT!
 
Amazing OT. Doom has to be on my top 3 favorite games ever. It's one of the few games I can play often and never get bored. One problem though, I've never had any luck getting The Master Levels (bought em off Steam years ago) to work with GZdoom or Brutal Doom or anything. Can anyone help?
 

hlhbk

Member
BTW which source ports support the BFG version for the Doom 2 WAD file? I would like to play the extra levels.
 

Raptomex

Member
Amazing OT. Doom has to be on my top 3 favorite games ever. It's one of the few games I can play often and never get bored. One problem though, I've never had any luck getting The Master Levels (bought em off Steam years ago) to work with GZdoom or Brutal Doom or anything. Can anyone help?
If you can find a wad of just the master levels, that's the way. I THINK the Master Levels is PWAD using the DOOM 2 IWAD. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
 

G-Fex

Member
Man fuck Plutonia Experiment. Dropped it around map 10. It's beatable for sure, but just too frustrating and cheap with its enemy placement.

Plutonia is supposed to be balls to the wall difficult, especially the map Hunted.

Only time I beat it was with constant saves during each map.

but wow, the level design in Plutonia is just Tops, right up there with Ultimate Doom.

Onslaught is my favorite map

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gF_lwOqAxI4
 
If you can find a wad of just the master levels, that's the way. I THINK the Master Levels is PWAD using the DOOM 2 IWAD. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
It's like 20 PWADs using the Doom 2 IWAD. If you want them all in one place, you'd have to merge them together on your own. (S'what I did, anyway.)
 

Raptomex

Member
It's like 20 PWADs using the Doom 2 IWAD. If you want them all in one place, you'd have to merge them together on your own. (S'what I did, anyway.)
Yup. Exactly. There's a separate No Rest For the Living wad but you can't really distribute it legally. But some source ports support the updated IWAD now anyway.
 

Accoun

Member
Oh, yeah that reminds me. I need to add the real guns advanced mod.

Yeah, that one was a huge surprise for me. Suspected it totally sucks and is basically a joke played only for novelty factor. But it's playable and actually pretty fun.
Mostly because of Doom's awesomeness, though. :)
 
Fucking awesome thread!

Anyone have modding experience with WadED? I used to make levels in that shit during all of my youth. Got it on disc with the book 'Gurus of Doom' which was basically a 500 page (or pound) book detailing in excruciating detail all about the Doom engine and how to make your own levels. Fuck I wish I kept it.

Anyone use it over the years?
 
Fucking awesome thread!

Anyone have modding experience with WadED? I used to make levels in that shit during all of my youth. Got it on disc with the book 'Gurus of Doom' which was basically a 500 page (or pound) book detailing in excruciating detail all about the Doom engine and how to make your own levels. Fuck I wish I kept it.

Anyone use it over the years?
No real point to at this point, when Doom Builder 2 handles level design just swell, and SLADE3 handles editing of all the lumps inside your asset WADs.

...but no, I have not used WadED.
 

blurrygil

Member
The way I see it, Doom 3 is a great game, just not a great Doom game.

My opinions aside, my main goal of this thread was to worship the original games and keep GAF up to date with it's excellent source ports and mods. The lack of Doom excellence was lacking here. I had to change that.

Hopefully Doom 4 will be back on the right track. But I added some Doom 3 mods to the OP and I am looking forward to 4.

Brilliant. And I figured what you were going for with this thread. Extremely well done. :)
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
It's like 20 PWADs using the Doom 2 IWAD. If you want them all in one place, you'd have to merge them together on your own. (S'what I did, anyway.)

Aren't they balanced so you start each one with base weaponry though? I'm about to actually reinstall Master Levels (from Steam) and just zDoom each one individually.
 
Aren't they balanced so you start each one with base weaponry though? I'm about to actually reinstall Master Levels (from Steam) and just zDoom each one individually.
They're intended for pistol starts, yes. Doesn't mean you have to play by their rules.
 

Sophia

Member
Fucking awesome thread!

Anyone have modding experience with WadED? I used to make levels in that shit during all of my youth. Got it on disc with the book 'Gurus of Doom' which was basically a 500 page (or pound) book detailing in excruciating detail all about the Doom engine and how to make your own levels. Fuck I wish I kept it.

Anyone use it over the years?

I still actually have this book somewhere. It's massive, although my copy isn't in good shape. You could use it as a weapon, lol...

How do the Playstation versions of Doom games hold up on the Vita?

The PlayStation versions have different music, and they predate twin stick controls. Also the levels are not identical. Some have been altered in minor ways, and there's a few exclusive levels, and a brand new final level for Doom 2.

Ultimate Doom and Doom 2 are included merged as one game simply called "Doom", and then there's Final Doom, which has most of the levels from those two expansions.
 
Thank you. I'm a perfectionist so I would love it if it was a perfect port :(

I just wish Doom Classic Complete would be released on the Vita.
 

G-Fex

Member
I still actually have this book somewhere. It's massive, although my copy isn't in good shape. You could use it as a weapon, lol...



The PlayStation versions have different music, and they predate twin stick controls. Also the levels are not identical. Some have been altered in minor ways, and there's a few exclusive levels, and a brand new final level for Doom 2.

Ultimate Doom and Doom 2 are included merged as one game simply called "Doom", and then there's Final Doom, which has most of the levels from those two expansions.

Yup. here's my playthrough of PSX Doom II but not the authentic version, the total conversion still in beta

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS6U-s9umiA

and I'll be casting Brutal Doom II in a while for people if they want to watch.
 
Awesomeness

Was a great read. Lovely. Would love to read more if there are more of your such long posts. It was like a nice article. Will check your post history as well for more posts. And welcome to the GAF.

Lastly, awesome thread. I hope more people follow this and make OTs for old series and games.
 
Was a great read. Lovely. Would love to read more if there are more of your such long posts. It was like a nice article. Will check your post history as well for more posts. And welcome to the GAF.

Lastly, awesome thread. I hope more people follow this and make OTs for old series and games.

Thanks! I've only been active on here for something like 3 days so that's the longest thing I've put out here yet but I hope to consistently post things like that on this site. I love writing stuff like that.

I'm probably gonna pop up in more threads like this one, so if any other threads about old games (or just games I've played in general) with great level design spend time at the front page I'm likely to have some opinion on them that I'll want to share.
 

luka

Loves Robotech S1
Don't get me wrong, I love the original soundtrack as well. I just think the PS1 soundtrack is very well done and does a good job of setting the mood in its own right.

I made a post about this before, but the PSX soundtrack doesn't fit Doom. The game isn't and was never meant to be a slow, atmospheric crawl to haunting industrial sounds and eerie cries. HEAVY METAL is Doom. Alice in chains, Slayer, Pantera, Megadeth...it's music and art was all an homage and amalgamation of everything a group of twenty-something geeks in the 90s thought was awesome. If you take that away, you take away a big part of why Doom was so special.

On that note, no mention of the variety of free software synthesizers and soundfonts in the op? I'd hate to think that people are plaything these games with their OS' crappy default MIDI. Anyone who hasn't used a proper MIDI module or good softsynth before probably doesn't know how incredible the music can sound.
 

hlhbk

Member
Was a great read. Lovely. Would love to read more if there are more of your such long posts. It was like a nice article. Will check your post history as well for more posts. And welcome to the GAF.

Lastly, awesome thread. I hope more people follow this and make OTs for old series and games.

Lets hope the trend of OTs for classic games catch on! I am considering doing one for Panzer Dragoon Saga since I feel it never fully gets the appreciation it deserves due to being on the Saturn. I just am debating if there is enough interest by GAF to put in the effort.
 
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