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Dota 2 Beta Thread: [Brewmaster]
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When you're playing a carry, yes it is.
Keyword: potentially. Bad carry is going to have shit farm regardless
if there is bad support, the carry will either not get farm because he's "brought down," or the carry will get farm because he's "not shitty." If the carry is bad, he gets bad farm or bad items either way.
None of the above.
Procarbine
Forever Platinum
Are you guys really making this argument?
Support heroes are support heroes because they need very little outside of their abilities to do what they need to for the game. Show up to the fight, cast skills, that's it. Yes, you can stun the wrong target, yes, you can have a suboptimal ulti, but those skills still do something. Some hero is taken out of the fight for some period of time, and it helps.
Compare this to a carry, they need to use their scaling, item dependent abilities, usually auto attacks, to positively effect a fight. You can make the counterargument that this still helps in some small way, but doing some small amount of damage before getting wrecked is much less helpful than a skill landing.
My point being that in a no skill - no skill comparison a support hero is hurt only once, even with bad positioning or awareness their skills can still help even if they have no items, but a carry is hurt twice. With no items and no awareness a carry can do almost nothing at all. Making the convoluted argument that bad support can drag down bad carry is very weak, as strong carry players are easily capable of winning games alone.
Support heroes are support heroes because they need very little outside of their abilities to do what they need to for the game. Show up to the fight, cast skills, that's it. Yes, you can stun the wrong target, yes, you can have a suboptimal ulti, but those skills still do something. Some hero is taken out of the fight for some period of time, and it helps.
Compare this to a carry, they need to use their scaling, item dependent abilities, usually auto attacks, to positively effect a fight. You can make the counterargument that this still helps in some small way, but doing some small amount of damage before getting wrecked is much less helpful than a skill landing.
My point being that in a no skill - no skill comparison a support hero is hurt only once, even with bad positioning or awareness their skills can still help even if they have no items, but a carry is hurt twice. With no items and no awareness a carry can do almost nothing at all. Making the convoluted argument that bad support can drag down bad carry is very weak, as strong carry players are easily capable of winning games alone.
The_Player
Member
Oh you so sure? +9 to all atributes and +9 damage, as well as buff of 5% attack and movement speed for fukken 1725 isn't good enough for ya mate?
Togglesworlh
Banned
Togglesworlh
Banned
Wards?!
Procarbine
Forever Platinum
Did you just ignore my post?
man i dont give a shit if riki uses silence or not if he has 800gpm w/ maxed items
Togglesworlh
Banned
No, but you're just repeating what some others have already said, and I don't feel the need to respond to it again.
Horrible logic. Riki's silence can make or break a team fight no matter how farmed he is if the other team is equally as farmed.
Dismissed
Here's the bottom line bro, a bad support makes the game harder but still winnable, a bad carry is a loss, unless the other team also has a bad carry. Simple as that, case closed. It doesn't matter if you have Fnatic.MSI Nova supporting you in lane, playing the best Lich game of his career if your missing last hits and over extending. Your not carrying anything without gold, your not getting gold if you suck at farming.Togglesworlh said:
There isn't much to debate beyond that, without bordering on situations that rely too heavily on circumstance. Assuming equal skill levels, as well as an equal game ( No stomps ).
And to take it even further it's harder to play carry then support, more at stake, need better decision making, need better Game Sense.
Togglesworlh
Banned
The bottom line is that's not always true, as much as you'd like to believe it is. It is an objective fact that if you have two evenly matched teams, and then replace one player with a worse player, then that team is now at a disadvantage. There is absolutely no logical way to deny this. No matter what game you're playing, no matter what role that person is playing, it will always and forever be true.
Also that specific quote you responded to was down an entirely separate line of discussion and had nothing to do with supports vs. carries. Just so you knowwwww.
Togglesworlh
Banned
ahhhh kirby
oh you
but yeah that's pretty much it, and i'm not gonna say anymore on the topic for now 'cause at this point we're jus' runnin' in circlessss D:
oh you
but yeah that's pretty much it, and i'm not gonna say anymore on the topic for now 'cause at this point we're jus' runnin' in circlessss D:
How does "Makes the game harder but still winnable" not mean that your at a disadvantage?
Your original point was;
Your saying that a Crystal Maiden that's playing badly holds as much weight as an Anti-Mage playing badly, you realise this right? That CM that's not hitting Frostbite on the correct targets, or using Crystal Nova on the max number of units, is as big a detriment to the team as the AM that's missing last hits, getting ganked, and using Mana Void on the Skeleton King instead of the Storm Spirit. The effect on the team fight overall and the chance of winning is night and day in those two situations alone, not even mentioning item choices.
It's about whether the disadvantage is surmountable or not, a bad carry is by far harder to win with then a bad support, it's tried and true. How you don't see this is beyond me. This is why you never see the experienced players in this thread suggest carries to the people that post in here saying their new and don't know where to start.Togglesworlh said:
I was just putting an end to your line of thinking which is not only wrong in regards to Riki, at 800GPM his usage of cloud doesn't even matter because he's maxed out in items and is demolishing the enemy team to the point that kills are boosting his gpm by 300~, but also wrong in regards to the relationship between Carries and Supports in relation to their team.
Togglesworlh
Banned
Okay I'm responding because I found where the miscommunication occurred.
No, I'm not, as explained below.
I never said anything to the contrary.* All I said is that "an awful support can ruin a game just as much as an awful carry." What is a ruined game? To me, it's a lost game. A bad support can result in a loss. A bad carry usually results in a loss. Ergo, a bad support can ruin a game just as much as a bad carry. If you still don't agree, under my supplied definitions, then I guess we're at an impasse.
If the other team isn't similarly farmed, this is correct. If they have an Anti-Mage or whatever the fuck also at 800GPM**, then both teams need to use every single skill they have in their repertoire to gain the upper hand. Everything I've said has been in the context of an even game, unless I explicitly state otherwise. Everything.
*If you've been reading anything like that in my posts, then clearly I did a horrible job of conveying my position, and I apologize, because that is totally not what I intended.
**This is unlikely, if not impossible, of course - both teams having a carry in such a position is... well. Yeah. I was working under the assumption that he was exaggerating re:800GPM. I suppose I shouldn't have.
No, I'm not, as explained below.
I never said anything to the contrary.* All I said is that "an awful support can ruin a game just as much as an awful carry." What is a ruined game? To me, it's a lost game. A bad support can result in a loss. A bad carry usually results in a loss. Ergo, a bad support can ruin a game just as much as a bad carry. If you still don't agree, under my supplied definitions, then I guess we're at an impasse.
If the other team isn't similarly farmed, this is correct. If they have an Anti-Mage or whatever the fuck also at 800GPM**, then both teams need to use every single skill they have in their repertoire to gain the upper hand. Everything I've said has been in the context of an even game, unless I explicitly state otherwise. Everything.
*If you've been reading anything like that in my posts, then clearly I did a horrible job of conveying my position, and I apologize, because that is totally not what I intended.
**This is unlikely, if not impossible, of course - both teams having a carry in such a position is... well. Yeah. I was working under the assumption that he was exaggerating re:800GPM. I suppose I shouldn't have.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Nature's Prophet should be banned from all Pub games. My god most worthless hero in the hands of scrubs. Every one of them wants to play a single player game from the looks of it.
Procarbine
Forever Platinum
Yeah you did. What you were really just saying was bad players make it hard to win.
Togglesworlh
Banned
Yes. That should have been obvious from my first post. I'm honestly surprised it wasn't. Were you guys just looking for a fight, or what?
I mean, Artinisix said exactly what I was saying. Also, you never said anything that actually disagrees with what I said.
C'est la vie.
Listen, if somebody says "by far harder" then you say you're not disagreeing when you say "just as much," you clearly have no concept of superlatives. 100 is "by far" bigger than 6. 50 is "just as" big as 5 x 10. Can you understand how when you say something contrary to the truth people think you don't know what you're talking about?
and we disagreed with artanisx too. It is worse to have a bad carry than bad support, hands down. That is why i get pissed when you guys recommend heroes like Skeleking and AM to new players.
and we disagreed with artanisx too. It is worse to have a bad carry than bad support, hands down. That is why i get pissed when you guys recommend heroes like Skeleking and AM to new players.
I took your message in it's literal interpretation, that a bad support is equal to a bad carry. As for Arta, he did mention that he's not saying one is worse then the other.
To be honest though, I just dropped my Iphone 4S in the sink and I was a bit upset.
Togglesworlh
Banned
Kapura said:
The literal interpretation of the statement "Sorry, no, an awful support can ruin a game just as much as an awful carry" is not what you say it is!
Nowhere in that statement is the word "is" or "equal". The closest is "just as much". However! Too, the statement contains the word "can". Combined, "can" and "just as much" implies potential for equality, not absolute equality. My mistake was in not further clarifying how they were potentially equal, I admit, but I didn't really expect anyone to misinterpret the statement and so I didn't feel the need! Especially since, in the immediately previous post, I had espoused that I do, indeed, feel that carries are more difficult than supports for new players. Context! It's golden.
But now we're decomposing the English language, which is a waste of everyone's time... Unless you enjoy this. I could continue. I don't mind. I kind of enjoy it. I doubt anyone else does, though. Hee. UU:
Kapura said:
I never have, and never will do this. How dare you lump me in with those people. I should be offended because I interpret statements incorrectly.
Togglesworlh
Banned
:3
Even though it is sarcasm, it holds a grain of truth.
What the ... ? I haven't played DOTA in 4 years, has he changed at all? How can you mess it up? You tree people and then teleport as support right? What are they doing wrong?
I actually found AA to be pretty easy. But the people I was playing against were idiots who let me stun them every time, and I likely should of fired my ult off at least twice as much as I did.
Both of those. NPs so far have been a total hit or miss hero from what I've seen, the player behind it decides the whole game. Either the NP is totally useless or out of control.
Haven't had a game without Bounty Hunter since the patch, most of them aren't too good either. This guy went 2/5/something, but we had Pudge and 3 carries, him included, so can't blame him. Set himself up for too much competition, but what else can you pick when there's already 2 carries and a Pudge picked, really.
Togglesworlh
Banned
People like to farm all day long and not really contribute to the team fights. The latter part isn't even the worst of it. They won't push, either.
Why would you even make this post? I swear this thread has some of the dumbest shit I've seen on GAF.
If you feel I'm wrong, explain your self. I am no expert of Dota, I'm not that great at the game. Not going to stop me from talking about it, being lousy at TF2 didn't stop me from opening my mouth every other post in that topic to talk about the game. Or is there some other problem with my post that isn't you thinking I'm an idiot?
I only ever played pub games in DotA, mostly as NP as far as I could help it. Did not (and still did not until a few minutes ago) know things like carries, gankers, support (which I love to play but all the heroes listed under there have always bored me). I mean, I did read guides and stuff on heroes I picked up and enjoyed. So it is kinda surprising that all the stuff I did while playing NP (i.e. ganker, pusher) or whatever other heroes did (whatever their roles were) just made sense after looking at their abilities.
I still felt AA was pretty simple. The only thing in my few games playing him I didn't get was how to effectively make use of his Chilling Touch. I wouldn't suggest him to a new player due to the fact that his stun can be hard to pull off, and it takes some decent knowledge of the map and the overall game flow to make good use of his ultimate.
For new players, I have found Lich and Crystal Maiden pretty simply to play and be helpful to the team. Most of the Int Supports are fairly safe bets for a person just learning the ropes, since there is less at stake on the account of them being poor at the game, and having a giant nuke/hard disable is really useful.
For new players, I have found Lich and Crystal Maiden pretty simply to play and be helpful to the team. Most of the Int Supports are fairly safe bets for a person just learning the ropes, since there is less at stake on the account of them being poor at the game, and having a giant nuke/hard disable is really useful.
Togglesworlh
Banned
Why are you even posting this it's such a minor comment and unimportant to the greater dialogue, don't you know we're in the Dota thread, we have pressing and important matters to be speaking about, jesus christ let's be professional here.
Haven't watched though it all yet, but Purge made an hour long guide going over every item in the game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9-qHJGIUvU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Btd2HQf_jnE
Let's make a pact that we will never let Dota 2's community end up like this HoN game.
Let's make a pact that we will never let Dota 2's community end up like this HoN game.
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