Dota 2 Beta Thread V: Real Talk Strikes Back [Tutorials]
- Thread starter Artanisix
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I think the metagame can handle full damage on the bonus star, judging by how much Puppey was hyping 25% extra damage (and then by how it changed nothing).
But you can still drastically lose it even if you bottle crow. If you're bottle crowing, then that means you probably are always getting beaten to the runes, and whoever your opponent is is getting them. Depending on what hero they are, they can probably kill you with the right rune, some cases tower diving you. Assuming you know they got the rune, you will beug forced to play it safe while they use it, meaning no farm for you and possibly no experience, depending where the creep line is.
I don't understand the hate for bottle crowing. It's an essential skill for playing mid. You will not get 100% of the runes every single game. If you're a Pudge vs a Death Prophet with points in Witchcraft and boots, and both sides have wards and map awareness, you aren't getting any runes as Pudge unless you get lucky and DP is out of lane.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
Bottle crowing should have a limit then. 2 times every 6 minutes.
If you can't make it to runes then level up your gameplay.
If you can't make it to runes then level up your gameplay.
hook her away from the rune and body block her to beat her to it
obviously
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i dont think the power difference between a rune bottle and bottle crow is enough to reward good rune control
^^
It increases the variety in viable mid heroes, and prevents things from snowballing into a total stomp.
I'm sure people will say 'you deserve to get stomped if you can't rune control, cry more noob', but stomps are fucking boring to watch, especially if it is largely decided by something as random as rune spawns.
I'll take the added variety of heroes and more back and forth play over more fights over runes early any day.
Because really what would happen is that people would just pick mids who don't need bottle like OD and Invoker
yep, bottle crowing and ms inflation from phase/drums/yasha stacking are the dumbest shit in dota right now
nerf drums nerf bottle crow 2013 #icefraud
PillowKnight
Member
AKA , League of Legends levels of anti-fun. Mid lane used to be the lane you watched to see big plays, and just an overall insane show-case of skill. Casters don't even bother to look mid anymore, that's how boring that shit has gotten.
wakajawaka
Member
Which heroes do you think would get hit the hardest by this nerf, competitively? I'm guessing magnus, of the most common ones nowadays.
The game should not be balanced around a 1v1 matchup, it's a team game.
Also I've seen plenty of bottle crowing mids die in a 1v1 lane. Bottle doesn't do shit if you get burst down from 100%, which plenty of mids are capable of. Especially if they get a rune and you are stuck bottle crowing.
There are plenty of 1v1 matchups where no one is going to die and they will just trade farm even without bottle crowing, why does bottle crow change anything? Plenty of heroes are passive early game, that's just the way the game works.
melees; heroes like DK. Mag wouldn't even hurt that bad because he can get runes with skewer and his shockwave is 90 mana which is insanely low. Sure, it would cripple him against a midlaner like QoP, but I mean, some of these melee heroes have no business going toe to toe with QoP (which bottle crowing enables).
Stahsky
A passionate embrace, a beautiful memory lingers.
No, the mid lane was designed around careful rune positioning and zoning in lanes. Mid being the most volatile of the three. Yet bottle crowing cuts that aspect off completely.
It will promote more risk taking, more zoning, and more interesting interactions mid overall. There's like literally nothing happening mid with bottle crowing now. It's Leagues mid, Dota everywhere else.
It's just better dota
No, league is the game where you can't come back from behind and everything slowly snowballs out of control, Dota is the game where skillful exploitation of all the resources available to you allows you to trade an advantage in one area for a different advantage. You can lane magnus or DK mid and give up free farm to the opposing mid in the hopes that you will be able to find the items you need to contribute. It is a strategic tradeoff and it is what makes the game interesting..
What makes Dota so great is that you can lane a non-standard mid hero and not fall so far behind that you can't catch up if you play it smart. I don't want to see puck/qop mid every single game. It would be terrible if the metagame stagnated like league's because only heroes who can control runes are viable mids.
To me, bottle crowing at mid is the equivalent of old OP tranquil boots in lane. It takes away the urgency of midlane, it massively negates kill potential, demotivates harassing (don't bother using your mana to harass, he's just bottle crowing, just use it to aoe creeps) and makes it so you never have to go to well. It's stupid.
yes and i'd love to be successful with a clinkz + sf lane, but that shit ain't happening. Dota is a game of roles, and bottle crowing enables some heroes to go toe to toe with a hero like QoP mid. It's fine if panda and DK want to mid, but they shouldn't be on equal footing with a QoP (a hero basically designed to win mid) because of bottle crow. It's zero risk dota.
Stahsky
A passionate embrace, a beautiful memory lingers.
shira
Member
Zeus also becomes kinda useless mid. Too slow to race for runes, high mana cost for medium level spells early on.
PillowKnight
Member
The league of legends part was a joke.
Resources like hp and mana? Which you carefully use before replenishing it not 60 seconds later. Used to be, you wasted your hp/mana you were basically fucked, which meant that a player displayed their skill by carefully using their hp/mana!
Your magnus/ck examples are pretty much a perfect example of how bottles dumb down mid and take the skill out of playing mid. Those two heroes literally sit in the lane spamming skills for cs while waiting for their bottle crow refills, that ability is basically their entire defining talent in the mid lane. You don't win lanes vs those heroes but they also never seem to win their lanes; they always turn into a boring stalemate farm fest.
Except mid is your ganker, tempo-setter, and is(was) the stage where players can out-skill another play drastically enough to alter the game. Do stuff heroes like SF, Lion, Pudge, Zeus. Nowadays, the only heroes you'll see mid most of the time are tanky heroes with cheap aoe nukes like DK, Magnus, Panda, Beastmaster. Not only this, but bottle crowing actually makes losing mid impossible, as the amount of hp/mana you gain out of it and the amount of cs you can spam out of it means you'll always be around the amount of farm you want or higher.
Plenty of mids are capable of 100 to 0 yes, but only against squishier hero matchups. If you see a DK vs Magnus or anything like that mid, expect nothing to happen in that lane except constant harass and csing.
And while you say plenty of heroes are passive early game, how many of those are traditional solo mid heroes? Most of these heroes have lots of kill potential right around level 3 and higher, and with runes provide alot of gank potential for their team and provide tempo to the game. And the few solo mids that can still stand against constant bottle crow spamming have had their playstyles changed into a passive farm-style; Tinker used to go laser rocket and provide a ton of burst to the sidelanes, but now just goes March build and bottle crow and stacks his way to BoTs. Overall, all the solo mids play alot more passive nowadays, which leads to a much staler spectator and player game.
No it doesn't. It just lets you make strategic trades if you choose to do so.
Like I said above, League is the game where advantages become insurmountable. Dota is the game where you can trade a deficit early for an advantage late, where you can make comebacks through skillful play.
It would be boring as shit if only highly mobile strong level 1 heroes were ever picked as mids.
Stahsky
A passionate embrace, a beautiful memory lingers.
Supports should be helping with rune control too. Whether that be them personally guarding it or dewarding.
Bottle crowing does not let magnus or DK go 'toe to toe' with QoP in mid lane. It allows mag to survive while giving QoP free farm and rune control basically. It is a strategic tradeoff, it does not come without costs.
You might think it's a boring playstyle, but that is subjective opinion. I for one will take interesting strategic decisions over high stakes action any day.
All that said, does anyone have any actual stats on the prevalence of early game mid lane kills? I don't think there has been as big of a shift as people complaining about it make it out to be. IMO most of the change from mid lane focus has been because trilane vs trilane has become almost standard and that means that is where most of the action will be happening.
Also it's not like bottle crowing is anything new. I think this is just everyone bitching about Mag mid in disguise. Which is all fine and good, mag probably does need a nerf, but this change would make him basically unplayable competitively because he sucks basically anywhere but mid, and he only survives mid because of bottle crowing.
Trilanes have been the meta since 2009...
Also bottle crowing became prominent in the scene around a couple months after Magnus got into CM, when they started transitioning him from long lane to mid to insure a fast arcane boots blink. Then teams realized you can do this shit with anyone, and started putting DKs, BMs, and a whole motley of heroes mid that would be successful just off of bottle crowing. And it's not even interesting ffs you can't even compare the entertainment value of 1v1s now vs like 2 years ago.
PillowKnight
Member
The difference in play mid is beyond obvious to everyone who played the mid lane before/after bottle crowing became massively popular. I don't even understand how there's an argument here, pro players are pretty much unanimous on bottle removing the skill factor from mid.
Stahsky
A passionate embrace, a beautiful memory lingers.
I'm not sure if this is what spurred the debate, but in that EG AMA earlier, Demon said he hated it and hoped it was pulled completely. This is definitely not the first time I've seen a pro-gamer hate on crowing
Trilanes sure, but it seems much more common to run tri vs tri recently. Also I see much less jungling than I did before.
Bottle crowing existed and was popular way before Magnus mid became popular.
As for comparing entertainment value, it's largely subjective, and I'd still like to see some data or at least some interesting anecdotes to support the thesis that mid lane has become so much more passive.
While I don't doubt that a mag or a DK results in a more passive lane, I do doubt that it has substantially impacted the overall level of aggression across the entire metagame.
Saying it's obvious without any examples or stats to back it up isn't very convincing. The only change I've noticed in western dota mid lanes has been magnus, which does result in a more passive lane, but that's one hero. I hardly think one hero is indicative of bottle crowing ruining the game. In the east they do it with DK and Jugg, so i guess that makes 3 total?
Also since when was bottle crowing ever unpopular? When did a mid ever say 'damn, missed the rune, better sit on this empty bottle and do nothing for the next 2 minutes'?
So how about this for a bottle crowing nerf: Only one courier per team. You can't get a second courier to crow with to avoid tying up the original courier when the side lanes or jungle need it. The constant bottle crowing can be taxing on the rest of the team, especially depending on what they are up against in lane. They may need to call in more regen or finish an early game item, like a Midas or Soul Ring. Granted a lot of the pieces to those can be bought at side shops, recipes can't, Midas recipe is too expensive to buy with starting gold, and if your safe lane is constantly pushed in by an Ion Shell spamming Dark Seer, and you can't get to your side shop, you're going to need the courier.
I don't think bottle crowing should be completely eliminated, but after reading the arguments about it, I can see the need for a nerf.
I don't think bottle crowing should be completely eliminated, but after reading the arguments about it, I can see the need for a nerf.
Procarbine
Forever Platinum
I would submit a mid match up from IHs last night between milk and myself as to why bottle crow is really silly. It was wisp v zues, myself on the zues getting smacked around with orbs but nuking right back. Both of us bottle crowed and it was just the two of us trading health and mana pools and nothing happening ultimately because neither of us could burst the other down yet. Yeah, harass and movement were happening, but unless one or the other makes a huge mistake, you aren't going to die and nothing is doing to get done. You feel complacent because going in and losing a bunch of HP really has no impact on the lane if you can bottle back up within 30 seconds guaranteed. Blow your mana to do the same to your opponent and, surprise, you're both back at square one. Furthermore, being able to bottle crow takes away the need to leave the lane for runes, allowing the mid to just sit there and never have to make a decision about missing exp or getting the rune.
Compare this a world without bottle crowing. Mid becomes a game of inches, where each trade of HP and mana is important. You want those creep kills but you need to save the mana in case the opponent becomes aggressive, you have to make the decision on what to do. More focus comes in to the rune spawns, yes blinkers like qop, puck, etc have an advantage, but it brings the supports into play and makes rune control more of a team element, not that it isn't already.
This is absolutely something that has been brought more into the mainstream via mag mid in the west, no question about it imo. Pinoy dota has been doing it forever though, and as my anecdotal example illustrates the problem is not mag, but the change in the nature of the lane. It has never been abused to this extent, and dota is a game of trending strategies more than anything. People have realized how effective the tactic is, and if you aren't doing it you are going to be behind.
Compare this a world without bottle crowing. Mid becomes a game of inches, where each trade of HP and mana is important. You want those creep kills but you need to save the mana in case the opponent becomes aggressive, you have to make the decision on what to do. More focus comes in to the rune spawns, yes blinkers like qop, puck, etc have an advantage, but it brings the supports into play and makes rune control more of a team element, not that it isn't already.
This is absolutely something that has been brought more into the mainstream via mag mid in the west, no question about it imo. Pinoy dota has been doing it forever though, and as my anecdotal example illustrates the problem is not mag, but the change in the nature of the lane. It has never been abused to this extent, and dota is a game of trending strategies more than anything. People have realized how effective the tactic is, and if you aren't doing it you are going to be behind.
Pinoys will be angry, also that is so much gold from the supports that it is fairly self punishing.
Really I'm not even against a bottle crow nerf, I just think removing it outright puts such a strict limit on the pool of viable mid heroes that it would be terrible.
Most of the bottle crow nerfs I've heard suggested seem pretty terrible and hacky, like the 2/3rd full one or the 'drop it on the ground to fill' one. Best option I can think of is that you make it take time to fill, say 5 secs per charge.
Pinoys will be angry, also that is so much gold from the supports that it is fairly self punishing.
Really I'm not even against a bottle crow nerf, I just think removing it outright puts such a strict limit on the pool of viable mid heroes that it would be terrible.
Most of the bottle crow nerfs I've heard suggested seem pretty terrible and hacky, like the 2/3rd full one or the 'drop it on the ground to fill' one. Best option I can think of is that you make it take time to fill, say 5 secs per charge.
Who says that cash has to come out of a support's pocket? 175 gold to guarantee winning your lane without curtailing your team sounds like a very worthwhile investment to me.
I find it ironic that you keep insisting on drawing league parallels to prove your argument while being completely wrong about the bottle and having no real experience with how league is at the top level
bottle crow mid is actually fundamentally worse than league mid because there is no way to stay indefinitely in lane in league
I saw tonnes of DK v Magnus mid in the past week
Thats not entertaining
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tbh i just want to own faces with qop again
Pinoys will be angry, also that is so much gold from the supports that it is fairly self punishing.
Really I'm not even against a bottle crow nerf, I just think removing it outright puts such a strict limit on the pool of viable mid heroes that it would be terrible.
Most of the bottle crow nerfs I've heard suggested seem pretty terrible and hacky, like the 2/3rd full one or the 'drop it on the ground to fill' one. Best option I can think of is that you make it take time to fill, say 5 secs per charge.
Ye but because there's bottle crowing alot of viable mid heroes became obsolete. Pudge, SF, Pugna, Lion, Invoker, Viper, Doom come into mind.
I'm not sure how instructive a wisp vs zeus mid is of anything. Two heroes with no real lock down or disable probably aren't going to kill each other no matter what unless the other player makes a mistake. The only thing bottle crow changes in that scenario is that instead of having to go back to base after every exchange you could just back off to bottle up.
and yet with bottle there is no advantage to be gained from better usage of positioning or mana
where as going back to base wastes time, and if you can force them to go back more often then you, you have won
Invoker I could see being more viable without bottle crowing, but I don't think bottle crowing is the reason most of those heroes don't see play.
B/c that hero has like 600 hp and actually can't stand up to DK Magnus BM or well, any of the current mids b/c they just take a nice lil dump on his shadowface. Sure his razing lets him flash farm very well, but the main difference between him and the other common bottle crowers is that the current mid heroes are all tanky and/or have an escape mechanism. When SF gets gone on, he can't do anything to stop himself from dieing except x z and right clicking.
Also, bladesguy, are you even 1800+?
holy shit
People have realised what it is capable of and using that to put tanky, easy+safe farm heroes in mid and make it a snooze fest
Procarbine
Forever Platinum
Are you kidding with this? My point was there is no momentum in the lane, no hp loss or mana expenditure has a real effect if it's being constantly replenished.
Which match ups would you consider instructive? I honestly can't think of heroes that can burst you 100% at any time before level 6, and if they do kill you it's with the aid of runes. Unless you get caught out of position and/or outplayed, but again, that rarely results in a kill if you start at 100%. Mid isn't a big place for lockdown and disable outside of 6.
There's advantage to be gained, it is just a much smaller advantage than it would be without bottle crowing.
Ah so its a match up problem not exactly related to SF not being able to abuse crow himself.
Anyway I would love for SF to make a return in the meta. Too bad that won't happen until some crazy buffs. Most baller hero ever.
It will also significantly curtail his ability to stack and Raze jungle camps if you fall behind. You will be blowing most of your mana pool catching up instead of having it in lane. Some would say "Well don't lose the lane." but one side has to lose the lane...
So you are agreeing with me that the rune buff is reward enough?
Are you saying you never miss a last hit or lose out on some xp when you have to back off to bottle up? How much advantage should the rune provide? Should it be an automatic lost lane if you get beat for 2 runes? 3 runes?
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