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Dota 2 |OT| To Hell and Back and Back to Hell

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H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Some people are just really interested in self improvement, for good or for ill. I would like to know my own stats, if nothing else.
 
B

Boken

Banned
balladofwindfishes said:
Yes

And it doesn't have a ladder

Think about it. If a ladder really was required to be a competitive game, why is Dota one of the most competitive games ever, despite not having one?

I think its importance is overstated and the game itself does not need it to grow or be competitive. And the downsides to having one are pretty substantial, especially when Valve wants to grow Dota 2 into having the best community of MOBA games.
Click to expand...
the community created that themselves in dota1
the pub environment itself was absolutely trash meaning i never tried to properly get good at the game. stats and rating make targeted improvement easier and obvious
fiore said:
Yes, I agree. Valve is doing something right when it manages to be #1 in the Steam stats by far.
Click to expand...
not saying anything about your argument, i just think your evidence is meaningless. its easy to be #1 on the steam stats.
 
K

KingKong

Member
CSGO system works well. Its nothing more than assigning a rank to your invisible mmr ranking bracket but you can see it go up or down to track your progress. Make it invisible to everyone else if you have to
 
A

Anbokr

Bull on a Donut
balladofwindfishes said:
Yes

And it doesn't have a ladder

Think about it. If a ladder really was required to be a competitive game, why is Dota one of the most competitive games ever, despite not having one?

I think its importance is overstated and the game itself does not need it to grow or be competitive. And the downsides to having one are pretty substantial, especially when Valve wants to grow Dota 2 into having the best community of MOBA games.
Click to expand...

I disagree completely. Some sort of ranking or ladder will only improve dota and make it a more fun game overall. People like to track their improvement, people like to set goals for themselves, and in dota 2 there is no metric to do this. What are the substantial downsides from having a LoL-esque ladder system or a private MMR system? To me, the positives far outweigh the negatives.

Grow Dota 2 into having the best community through an effective system of punishment/encouragement, not by removing any and every statistic or skill metric in the game.

Every competitive player/pubstar played in leagues in dota 1 precisely because it didn't have a ranking system. Hell, entire mods were created around measuring and displaying skill. It's kind of like how more and more people are moving to IXDL open and other leagues in dota 2 for some sort of a competitive feel to matchmaking. Wouldn't it be nice if Valve could incorporate leagues or ranking, support an IXDL-esque system in client so the community doesn't have to do their job like it's a 1998 blizzard game?
 
B

balladofwindfishes

Member
Anbokr said:
I disagree completely. Some sort of ranking or ladder will only improve dota and make it a more fun game overall. People like to track their improvement, people like to set goals for themselves, and in dota 2 there is no metric to do this. What are the substantial downsides from having a LoL-esque ladder system or a private MMR system? To me, the positives far outweigh the negatives.

Grow Dota 2 into having the best community through an effective system of punishment/encouragement, not by removing any and every statistic or skill metric in the game.

Every competitive player/pubstar played in leagues in dota 1 precisely because it didn't have a ranking system. Hell, entire mods were created around measuring and displaying skill. It's kind of like how more and more people are moving to IXDL open and other leagues in dota 2 for some sort of a competitive feel to matchmaking. Wouldn't it be nice if Valve could incorporate leagues or ranking, support an IXDL-esque system in client so the community doesn't have to do their job like it's a 1998 blizzard game?
Click to expand...

Valve tried a strict punishment system and the community hated it.

LoL also doesn't have to deal with voice chat, which often can be harsher than anything people would bother typing.
 
A

Anbokr

Bull on a Donut
balladofwindfishes said:
Valve tried a strict punishment system and the community hated it.
Click to expand...

strict doesn't always equal effective. Valve's "strict" system wasn't effective in the slightest because people reported for anything and everything, in fact, they reported you for feeding or if they just didn't like you--it became another way of "flaming" someone. Simply report them and with 1-2 reports, bam chat banned. That's not effective. The current system is much more effective where I personally know the constant trash talkers on my friends list are always muted but there aren't any innocent casualties this time around.

balladofwindfishes said:
LoL also doesn't have to deal with voice chat, which often can be harsher than anything people would bother typing.
Click to expand...

So let's remove voice chat then, someone flamed me over voice chat one time, VALVE PLZ HALP. What valve is currently doing is removing any and every feature that can be used to flame. Well, voice chat and chat in general are tools used to flame let's remove those #valvelogic. I think we should also hide player names, let's use player x, y, z, b, d instead so that your steam name (which can be derogatory, give away your ethnicity, etc...) can't become a flamer weapon.

Ikuu said:
People just want a number so they know who they can talk down to.
Click to expand...

Private number bud.
 
S

SamVimes

Member
Ikuu said:
People just want a number so they know who they can talk down to.
Click to expand...

What if i want a number to track my progress over time? What i would love in an explicit mmr system would be just
1)My mrr
2)Top 100 players mmr
3)Average mmr

Nothing else, anything more or less would actually be detrimental.
 
B

Boken

Banned
balladofwindfishes said:
Valve tried a strict punishment system and the community hated it.

LoL also doesn't have to deal with voice chat, which often can be harsher than anything people would bother typing.
Click to expand...
it was strict because it wasnt effective. it took no regard to the content or truthiness of reports and chatbanned people
valve really need to just copy lol's tribunal system already
Ikuu said:
People just want a number so they know who they can talk down to.
Click to expand...
is that too much to ask
 
1

1.09

Low Tier
legit it doesnt matter if theres a rating system or not its very obvious just how bad you are at this game like in a public game its very obvious which players are good and which arent you dont need a number to verify this just keep the numbers for self improvement or for friendly comparison amongst friends stop crying so much just because youre not that good the numbers are there to aspire you to become better instead of just sinking into the cesspool of low skill that youll eventually end up in if theres no stats
 
S

SteveWinwood

Member
I'm not quite sure why they seemed to have abandoned the low priority and mute systems so quickly. I would have liked to see them play with them some and try lots of different approaches to gather as much data as they could. I don't know how much behind the scenes stuff they ended up changing that we didn't see, or what data they did get. I guess they had a reason and thought it best to try other things.

At the very least just about anything they've done is better than putting out after school PSAs on youtube about being nice.

Edit: :)
 
A

Anbokr

Bull on a Donut
Boken said:
it was strict because it wasnt effective. it took no regard to the content or truthiness of reports and chatbanned people
valve really need to just copy lol's (starcraft's) ranking system already

is that too much to ask
Click to expand...

fixed

I think the current mute system is fine. If you're crazy over the top, you're bound to get muted eventually (see Loki/Thor). Occasional and non-trash talkers are rarely banned. So yeah, more flamers slip through, but the system can't be abused very easily and the worst offenders are punished.
 
K

Kalnos

Banned
Not going to lie, it was satisfying looking at pubstats and seeing my progress from normal -> high -> some very high. If Valve feels the community is too toxic for public ratings, which it probably is, then I don't see why private ratings shouldn't be considered.
 
C

CarbonatedFalcon

Member
I was iffy on the item changes at first, but as long as they cycle stuff so nothing that wasn't already immortal comes back eventually, it's probably a good thing. Anything that can go on the market is pretty much permanently on sale, and creators get a cut of the churn, from items that otherwise might have just dropped which they got nothing from. Especially from older sets that wouldn't be moving very fast.

Already got the BH mask from Frostivus I've wanted for ~35 cents (people had to spend a key for that, so bargain!), and Anuxi's Flares of the Solar Divine for $1.70 (regular price was $5.99).
 
A

Anbokr

Bull on a Donut
Boken said:
im talking about the community report judgement system

and pff, lol's ranking system is probably gonna show personal MMR soon. lol > sc2
Click to expand...

I know you were, I simply changed the copy mute system to copy the ranking system. I don't care about LoL's tribunal system, it might be effective but I'm fine with the current dota one. I just want some sort of public or private stat tracking/ranking. I really really like the LoL system (which is basically the SC2 system).
 
S

SteveWinwood

Member
I wouldn't mind a ladder similar to LoL's or Sc2 as long as it didn't have explicit promotion matches.

hey guys try hard i gotta win this to get to gold
 
A

Atlantis

Member
God bless the Community Market.

well shit, all 3 of my sets were removed. Know what this means? you guys should buy them for ass cheap on the marketplace!! :D
Click to expand...

Your wish is my command! Got items for Lich, Rubick, TA, and WD along with a ward. Still haven't burned through the five dollar minimum yet. Craziness.
 
K

ksan

Member
one thing that surprised me about dota2/hon/league/sc2 is that people actually care about competitiveness even if they don't play at a particularly high level, that might be a good enough reason to let people see their own stats and shit like that
Boken said:
are inexplicit promo matches better?
Click to expand...

i think it's kinda weird with explicit games for that, it's just a statistical model that places you in a bracket on a continuous distribution with no other function than for show (or are the brackets segregated in play in LoL? cause they aren't in sc2)
 
F

fiore

Banned
Anbokr said:
I disagree completely. Some sort of ranking or ladder will only improve dota and make it a more fun game overall. People like to track their improvement, people like to set goals for themselves, and in dota 2 there is no metric to do this. What are the substantial downsides from having a LoL-esque ladder system or a private MMR system? To me, the positives far outweigh the negatives.

Grow Dota 2 into having the best community through an effective system of punishment/encouragement, not by removing any and every statistic or skill metric in the game.

Every competitive player/pubstar played in leagues in dota 1 precisely because it didn't have a ranking system. Hell, entire mods were created around measuring and displaying skill. It's kind of like how more and more people are moving to IXDL open and other leagues in dota 2 for some sort of a competitive feel to matchmaking. Wouldn't it be nice if Valve could incorporate leagues or ranking, support an IXDL-esque system in client so the community doesn't have to do their job like it's a 1998 blizzard game?
Click to expand...
So I looked up IXDL..and thought, why don't the people who are asking for match making stats and stuff just play there? It has everything a "pro" player can ask for.
 
T

TommyT

Member
fiore said:
So I looked up IXDL..and thought, why don't the people who are asking for match making stats and stuff just play there? It has everything a "pro" player can ask for.
Click to expand...

Asking for match making stats and numbers doesn't make you a "pro" player. IXDL, like most leagues and what not, are too insular. The pool of players can, and usually does, stagnate. Playing the same mode and being relegated to whatever hero/role you're assigned doesn't sit well with everyone.

edit: Now, if EVERYONE played there and it had more modes then it would be a different story. However, that's already accomplished in the regular client/mm.
 
B

Boken

Banned
ksan said:
one thing that surprised me about dota2/hon/league/sc2 is that people actually care about competitiveness even if they don't play at a particularly high level, that might be a good enough reason to let people see their own stats and shit like that


i think it's kinda weird with explicit games for that, it's just a statistical model that places you in a bracket on a continuous distribution with no other function than for show (or are the brackets segregated in play in LoL? cause they aren't in sc2)
Click to expand...
i think its because there will always be something to compare yourself to, even if you are alone (ranking)

actually the lol league system itself is dependant on the elo statistical model which is indeed a continuous distribution. elo is still used for matchmaking, but the league system operates as a slow response representation of your real MMR, but not necessarily indicative of it.
 
S

Shorty11857

Member
First game of the new mode, our captain picks one of the worst drafts I've ever seen and we get trashed, fun times

Edit: Go into matchmaking again and get the exact same teammates!
 
K

ksan

Member
Boken said:
i think its because there will always be something to compare yourself to, even if you are alone (ranking)
Click to expand...
I understand that some people have the need for that, and that's completely fine :p

Boken said:
actually the lol league system itself is dependant on the elo statistical model which is indeed a continuous distribution. essentially the league system operates as a slow response representation of your real MMR, but it not necessarily indicative of it.
Click to expand...

Yeah, gotcha.
But you can be matched up with high silver players if you are in the lower end of the gold right?
 
F

fiore

Banned
Apparently there's a new mode called auto draft that's not yet released, I'm excited for that. Especially since I have no idea what heroes should be picked.
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
If I recall correctly, League's "ranks" are relative within a division. Some divisions can simply be better than others, so a gold player in Division 423 might be at the level of silver players in Division 219. Not that it's going to be a significant disparity but it's not really an impartial gloal ladder. It just gives you something to work for. Positive reinforcement and all that.
 
B

Boken

Banned
Haly said:
If I recall correctly, League's "ranks" are relative within a division. Some divisions can simply be better than others, so a gold player in Division 423 might be at the level of silver players in Division 219. Not that it's going to be a significant disparity but it's not really an impartial gloal ladder. It just gives you something to work for. Positive reinforcement and all that.
Click to expand...

actually, the rank movement is still tied to your elo and so it works as a skill indicator. (except for the no tier demotion charity work by riot)

what it doesnt mean is that "20th in division 5 of silver" > "50th in division 5 of silver" since position is dependant on player #. however, division 2 is still > division 5 of silver
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
So your rank within a division is dependent on your ELO?

What about inter division comparisons? I'm not sure I'm reading you correctly.
 
S

SteveWinwood

Member
Boken said:
are inexplicit promo matches better?
Click to expand...

I mean it's coming from a purely personal view on that, because as soon as someone says "hey if I win this I get promoted" I'm going to go and rush heart on crystal maiden.

I don't know how it effects the community and Valve though. It could be a great motivator. I just never liked the idea of it. It's supposed to be a fluid curve, not a staircase. I understand that the mmr is separate from the ranking but whatever always felt off to me.

Haly said:
If I recall correctly, League's "ranks" are relative within a division. Some divisions can simply be better than others, so a gold player in Division 423 might be at the level of silver players in Division 219. Not that it's going to be a significant disparity but it's not really an impartial gloal ladder. It just gives you something to work for. Positive reinforcement and all that.
Click to expand...
Sc2 always had some people going around talking about how one platinum was totally better than another or how this gold was actually worse than another silver. Never really looked into it too much to see why they thought that or how they collected the data on it, but I always remember seeing them around.
 
B

Boken

Banned
Haly said:
So your rank within a division is dependent on your ELO?

What about inter division comparisons? I'm not sure I'm reading you correctly.
Click to expand...

lets delineate terminology first:
tier = diamond/gold/silver etc
division = breakdown of tiers = div1 > div 2 > div 3 etc.

your elo affects how you move up and down divisions - and as such, it is correct to say div1 silver (of x random league) > div 3 silver (of y random league)

however, your position in the division i.e. 5th in div 1 silver (of x random league) vs 6th in div 1 silver (of y random league) is dependent on division population so escapes cross division comparisons.

comparing yourself to somebody in the same division is ok, because thats independant of the population of the division.
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Okay, I had "division" mixed up with "league", hence my confusion.
 
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