Nothing makes sense in Dota. Imagine Dota if they patched everything that didn't make sense.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Dota 2 |OT12| A Safe Place For Your Sociopathic Behaviors.
- Thread starter Dreams-Visions
- Start date
Nothing makes sense in Dota. Imagine Dota if they patched everything that didn't make sense.
Sure it does, I'd say there are very few things that "make no sense" in Dota, and that's one of them. Everything else just takes a lot of learning or digging to figure out why it works that way.
I'd say bring on that patch. Here's a list of things off the top of my head:
Giving Bottle to someone that just TP'd from fountain to refill
Puck's Phase Shift is considered a blink as far as roots (LD Bear root, Naga net, Ember Chains, etc.) are concerned.
Tinker March getting eaten by the edge of the map (although I think this is fixed in Reborn since I have yet to see it happen)
Some spells randomly working through Storm Spirit's zip, Pudge Hook and Global Silence are two that come to mind.
Pudge Hook hooking tornadoed heroes
Getting a free bottle refill without crowing/going back to fountain/bottling a rune is kind of a big deal. I'd argue that is it gamebreaking, we have just come to accept it over the years. Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure that didn't work in WC3 Dota.
Fair enough, but it still begs the question as to why it's logical at all in the first place. Dota is filled with tons of logical processes, some more complicated than others, but most of them make some sort of sense, even if you don't understand it immediately. The fountain bottle TP trick and the ones I listed a few posts up fall under the "nonsense" category.
Another example of this was the old Pudge Chen fountain hook, but of course that was removed because pro players abused it to win a game.
a lot of things didn't work in WC3 due to engine limitations
theres a lot cool little things that have been added since that give heroes mechanical character, that couldn't be implemented before source
bottle refill isn't OP, and I think its actually a really cool thing, a lot of the things you listed require altruism & trust
things the game should be encouraging in players!
theres a lot cool little things that have been added since that give heroes mechanical character, that couldn't be implemented before source
bottle refill isn't OP, and I think its actually a really cool thing, a lot of the things you listed require altruism & trust
things the game should be encouraging in players!
Sigismundo
Member
Good lord, iG are getting fucking demolished.
a lot of things didn't work in WC3 due to engine limitations
theres a lot cool little things that have been added since that give heroes mechanical character, that couldn't be implemented before source
bottle refill isn't OP, and I think its actually a really cool thing, a lot of the things you listed require altruism & trust
things the game should be encouraging in players!
How do those things require altruism and trust exactly?
No it doesn't, Tread switching we have math behind it, we have an explanation for what stats do, we have a function on the Power Treads to switch the stat it boosts, HP & Mana are kept at whatever percentage they were at before the stat change.
ugh
I have reading comprehension issues sorry
idk when I think of bottle refill abuse in fountain, I think of giving it to other people
Here's the explanation: The fountain area is a trigger zone that puts a buff on you which gives mana, regen, and refills your bottles. The "aura", like most auras in the game, are "sticky", and last for a few seconds upon leaving the trigger zone.
When you TP, you're still affected by the aura which is why you're allowed to TP to a tower at 90% HP and still reach 100% HP after a second or so. While the buff is active on you, bottles can be refilled because it's being constantly applied by the aura. The reason you can refill other people's bottles is the same reason the courier can refill your bottle. The courier isn't doing anything special with bottles. It gets the fountain buff like everyone else and ALL of its bottles will be refilled by the buff.
Boom.
Mechanics.
It is no more or less arbitrary than tread switching and changing it is a balance issue, not a bug fixing one.
When you TP, you're still affected by the aura which is why you're allowed to TP to a tower at 90% HP and still reach 100% HP after a second or so. While the buff is active on you, bottles can be refilled because it's being constantly applied by the aura. The reason you can refill other people's bottles is the same reason the courier can refill your bottle. The courier isn't doing anything special with bottles. It gets the fountain buff like everyone else and ALL of its bottles will be refilled by the buff.
Boom.
Mechanics.
It is no more or less arbitrary than tread switching and changing it is a balance issue, not a bug fixing one.
Here's the explanation: The fountain area is a trigger zone that puts a buff on you which gives mana, regen, and refills your bottles. The "aura", like most auras in the game, are "sticky", and last for a few seconds upon leaving the trigger zone.
When you TP, you're still affected by the aura which is why you're allowed to TP to a tower at 90% HP and still reach 100% HP after a second or so. While the buff is active on you, bottles can be refilled because it's being constantly applied by the aura. The reason you can refill other people's bottles is the same reason the courier can refill your bottle. The courier isn't doing anything special with bottles. It gets the fountain buff like everyone else and ALL of its bottles will be refilled by the buff.
Boom.
Mechanics.
It is no more or less arbitrary than tread switching and changing it is a balance issue, not a bug fixing one.
It's obtusely hidden, that's for sure. I mean you don't even get a visible buff for fountain.
I still think it is a bug-fixing issue, the idea is that you fill up your bottle at the fountain, not at someone that touched the fountain recently.
SilentRacoon
Member
There is a trick that allows players to refill bottle upon freshly tping from the fountain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1nN0VEp5k4
Edit: I'm dumb.
I mean it's called fountain for a reason.
no its not
Oh wow thats really cool
it actually makes sense with the fountain aura why did I never think of that
I dont think it was so obvious b4 because people didn't really get more than 1 bottle per team due to there only being 1 rune?
It's a semantic error, but the game is built up on semantic errors.
I consider bugs behavior unintended by the developer not the user.
The user is dumb. The user has all kinds of misconceptions. Could the tooltip of Bottle be upgraded to be more accurate? Sure. And every skill and spell can also say if they're blocked by BKB, by Linkens, by Lotus, can be Purged, etc.
But there comes a point where this information is overwhelming and adding this information causes more harm then good. Thus, some mechanics remain "hidden", but can be used by those in a position to.
Your darling's Dispersion, for example, has this tooltip:
And these caveats:
Are these all bugs? Should they be fixed?
I consider bugs behavior unintended by the developer not the user.
The user is dumb. The user has all kinds of misconceptions. Could the tooltip of Bottle be upgraded to be more accurate? Sure. And every skill and spell can also say if they're blocked by BKB, by Linkens, by Lotus, can be Purged, etc.
But there comes a point where this information is overwhelming and adding this information causes more harm then good. Thus, some mechanics remain "hidden", but can be used by those in a position to.
Your darling's Dispersion, for example, has this tooltip:
Dispersion
Abilityassive
Spell Immunity: No
Damage done to Spectre is reflected on her enemies, leaving her unharmed. The effect lessens with distance.
Minimum Radius: 300
Maximum Radius: 1000
Damage Reflected: 10%/14%/18%/22%
And these caveats:
Are these all bugs? Should they be fixed?
Yeah, as in "You fill your bottle with water/liquid/whateverthehellitis to fill your bottle, not "Oh someone's been to the fountain recently, let them hold it and it's full!"
Yes it is, there is no buff shown for the fountain, and that trick makes no logical sense and is definitely the result of a bug back in Source 1, but they stuck with it. Nobody would see these things and think to try that without seeing someone else do it first. As evidence, see people in this thread right here that weren't aware of that trick.
Every spell does say whether it goes through BKB or not...
As for your Dispersion example, there is no logical reason for it to be blocked by Linken's at all. The illusion thing is one thing and mainly just requires knowing the list of skills that works on illusions and those that don't. Disabled by Break also makes sense, but of course there are some passives that aren't and those are noted in the patch notes. As for the stuff about damage manipulation and damage type, those were in the patch notes. The description of the skill without holding alt says the effect lessens with distance. The HP removal thing is a weird one, I'll give you that.
Do you believe a new player reads the patch notes?
Would you have known about Spectre's Dispersal being pure when you started out?
Why is it logical that it was pure?
Why is it logical now that it's no longer pure?
Would you have known about Spectre's Dispersal being pure when you started out?
Why is it logical that it was pure?
Why is it logical now that it's no longer pure?
Hint: It doesn't fucking matter. This game is built on arbitrary mechanical synergies.
hey guys i just started reading this new anime i thinik its rly good u guys shoudl give it a try
some of the characters are really deep and complex, and the animations are beautiful
free streaming link at
http://www.stoptalkingaboutthatoverratedshithero.com
some of the characters are really deep and complex, and the animations are beautiful
free streaming link at
http://www.stoptalkingaboutthatoverratedshithero.com
Oh cool I'll put it on my backloghey guys i just started reading this new anime i thinik its rly good u guys shoudl give it a try
some of the characters are really deep and complex, and the animations are beautiful
free streaming link at
http://www.stoptalkingaboutthatoverratedshithero.com
on a tangent I've just started this great british sci-fi crime drama
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
Great website, would recommend
waxinlyrical
Member
I really want to play Legion Commander again but I think between Duel no longer disabling passives, Overwhelming Odds having its damage reduced and Mark of Courage no longer being able to proc multiple times I honestly think she's not good enough. What am I missing that pros love about her? I don't think I've seen a single pro game where I went "Man, that Legion pick was the key between the team losing and winning"
You're moving the goalposts by talking about a new player that probably doesn't even know what a ward is.
Dispersion said on the tooltip that it was pure before 6.85. If I'm not mistaken, holding Alt on Dispersion says the damage type thing for 6.85.
These mechanics are not arbitrary, they are defined and explained, and make sense.
you have not spent enough time on tumblr, you lucky thing
//implied but never followed through homosexuality spills everywhere//
Tell me, Hylian, what's the "logic" behind Deny Range being 50% rather than 100% like it was a long time ago, or 0% during a certain short period?
Why is it 25% for Heroes, and 10% for Towers?
Where is this information in the UI?
Is it a bug? Did we find a crucial bug that's affected every tournament up to now?
What about creep aggro? Do you know that creep aggro is 500 range? That if you initiate an attack from outside that range that creeps won't aggro you? That the "aggro" has a cooldown of two seconds?
More bugs?
Do you know which areas on the map do not work with Vacuum or Telekinesis? Where is this in the UI? Where is the logic? Am I moving goalposts again? Are these bugs as well?
Why is it 25% for Heroes, and 10% for Towers?
Where is this information in the UI?
Is it a bug? Did we find a crucial bug that's affected every tournament up to now?
What about creep aggro? Do you know that creep aggro is 500 range? That if you initiate an attack from outside that range that creeps won't aggro you? That the "aggro" has a cooldown of two seconds?
More bugs?
Do you know which areas on the map do not work with Vacuum or Telekinesis? Where is this in the UI? Where is the logic? Am I moving goalposts again? Are these bugs as well?
These things are spelled out and obvious for the player to figure out, even if by trial and error. People will learn about denies and try to deny creeps at full health and realize it won't work, then keep trying as it's health ticks down and realize they can suddenly do it when it's below half.
Creep aggro is just a built in mechanic of Dota 2, it's always been there, it's always been 500 range.
The Vacuum and Telekinesis thing is also something that would be figured out by trial and error if someone wanted to keep trying to cliff people.
No, you're not moving the goalposts. I still disagree about the bottle thing. No one would think to try "Oh, you TP'd from fountain, let me give you my bottle and it will fill up!" without them seeing someone else do it first.
Technosteve
Banned
NERDSSSSssssss
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
I'm reading this in David Mitchell's voice
Captain Fish
Member
This thread being good is a bug that has been fixed.
Incorrect, we have explanations for most of them.
What is it with you people and claiming the thread is "bad" every time a Dota mechanics discussion happens?
I blame Anime
Conceding points neuron not found.
This is pretty much a repeat of the tread switching hullaballoo.
You assign arbitrary definitions to whether something is "obvious" vs "not obvious" based on your narrow, anecdotal, and self-centered definitions of what these words mean.
Here's the real deal.
All these things have existed in various forms for far longer than DOTA 2 has been a game, and they could've been changed at any point in the game's history. These were things you learned because you saw someone else do it in a game, or something your gosu-pro friend taught you. You're, once again, missing my real point that this game is built upon these things you consider "bugs". The fact that you don't consider them bugs now is only because a long enough time has passed that these weird mechanic quirks have been grandfathered in, despite having no real basis, nor exposure through the UI, for a long, long time.
In 2006, there were players just like you who thought Battle Hunger being unpurgable was a bug. Play-dota even had a mechanics subforum dedicated to documenting and explaining all these "bugs", which eventually became just another part of the game.
In 2020, there will be someone exactly like you who thinks bottle refills are a trivial mechanical quirk anyone can figure out and some other esoteric but easily replicatable and accepted mechanical interaction that is a "bug" and should be removed.
The mechanics weren't programmed to conform to the tooltips. The tooltips were written to describe preexisting mechanics, many of which were once, yes, actual bugs, because of WC3's limitations, and are now simply balance and design decisions, like bottle refills can be, regardless of what you think it is, because you don't make this game.
You assign arbitrary definitions to whether something is "obvious" vs "not obvious" based on your narrow, anecdotal, and self-centered definitions of what these words mean.
Here's the real deal.
All these things have existed in various forms for far longer than DOTA 2 has been a game, and they could've been changed at any point in the game's history. These were things you learned because you saw someone else do it in a game, or something your gosu-pro friend taught you. You're, once again, missing my real point that this game is built upon these things you consider "bugs". The fact that you don't consider them bugs now is only because a long enough time has passed that these weird mechanic quirks have been grandfathered in, despite having no real basis, nor exposure through the UI, for a long, long time.
In 2006, there were players just like you who thought Battle Hunger being unpurgable was a bug. Play-dota even had a mechanics subforum dedicated to documenting and explaining all these "bugs", which eventually became just another part of the game.
In 2020, there will be someone exactly like you who thinks bottle refills are a trivial mechanical quirk anyone can figure out and some other esoteric but easily replicatable and accepted mechanical interaction that is a "bug" and should be removed.
The mechanics weren't programmed to conform to the tooltips. The tooltips were written to describe preexisting mechanics, many of which were once, yes, actual bugs, because of WC3's limitations, and are now simply balance and design decisions, like bottle refills can be, regardless of what you think it is, because you don't make this game.
Most of them make sense, the number of things that don't really make a lot of sense is few and has gotten fewer and fewer over the patches. Remember when Earthshaker's Fissure always popped Linkens, no matter if it was cast on the hero or on the ground? That got fixed.
I thought of another example of one: Dark Seer's Ion Shell doesn't pop Linkens when cast on enemy heroes. The alt text mentions nothing about this, yet I feel like that's a pretty big dealbreaker. I actually was playing a game where there was a Dark Seer on my team, and the other team had a Medusa with Linkens. I told Dark Seer to use Ion Shell on her to pop the Linkens so I could use a spell on her (I think I was AM in this particular match?). I didn't work, we lost the rax and the game.
Now we are getting to the point where making things like that more obvious is turning us into League? What about when damage types and Magic/Spell Immunity were reworked, was that turning us into League?
People have played the game for as long, if not longer than I have and STILL didn't know about the Bottle refill trick. It's not something you would think to try, it's not something you would have any reason to try other than knowing it works. Who randomly hands teammates their items just because it might do a trick?
Similar threads
- Locked