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[Darklord]

Less class flexibility
Less tactical combat
No playable races
No isometric camera
No upgradable skills
Can't change party members' attire
Can't change party members' weapon specializations
I'm sure there's more we don't even know about yet.

Lets not forget dumbed down dialog trees and choices.

Spoiler

And dumbed down graphics

 

[kai3345]

Less class flexibility
Less tactical combat
No playable races
No isometric camera
No upgradable skills
Can't change party members' attire
Can't change party members' weapon specializations
I'm sure there's more we don't even know about yet.

yup

 

[HeadlessRoland]

Quit it.

Eh?

Lets not forget dumbed down dialog trees and choices.

Yeah, or the fact you can make a macro that pushes r,1,2,3,4 and repeats and the game plays itself. If that is not a cogent argument for the gameplay being dumbed down I do not know what is.

 

[itxaka]

BUT IS THERE TITTIES?!?!

Play the demo and you will see a realdoll in the first 30 seconds. Seriously.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

Mediocre is highly subjective and is expected coming from hurt pc fans. They just put out one of the best games this gen last year, and juding from the lurking I did back then on here, is perceived as "consolized" (which is starting to mean that the game is really damn good to me, judging from gaf's track record with that term)

What are you talking about? Mass Effect 2? The game made for Xbox 360?

 

[DJ Lushious]

In response to the OP:

Did Bioware really say all of this things?!

 

[chris-013]

Yes !

 

[vocab]

I don't like Femhawke saying "Have at you". Sorry little girl, you are not Dracula.

In response to the OP:

Did Bioware really say all of this things?!

Yes.

 

[kai3345]

In response to the OP:

Did Bioware really say all of this things?!

yeah

Dug their own grave

 

[Reluctant-Hero]

Damn, this thread is broken. It's a Kobayashi Maru with so many arguments. I'll come back after I've enjoyed the full game.

 

[truly101]

Mass effect 1 was a mediocre game, but lack of streamlining had nothing to do with it.

It was the the shitty menus, haphazard loot system, awkward controls, bland and featureless planets, and repetitive side missions.

But I loved it somehow, maybe I just really wanted the concept to come true.

I also liked it ME a lot, but as an RPG, the interface and combat were clunky and obtuse. That style of game did not lend itself to stat based projectile combat. AP is the same way. Really Fallout's V.A.T.S. system did it the best, but that wouldn't have worked for ME. I thought ME2 was more true to what ME wanted to be, thats just me, but the game felt a lot more natural than ME did. ME seemed like it was fighting itself and didn't know what the hell it wanted to be. Its a good game but a shitty RPG.

I don't know of too many console players who asked for what DA2 seems to be. I don't know who they are trying to attract here. ME had a broader appeall IMO, but even it didn't do COD, GTA or HALO numbers.

 

[itxaka]

My biggest problem with DA:O (which I enjoyed on console) was stupid shit that comes from its PC heritage. The whole affair was buggy as hell, especially when you get to the DLC. I defy anyone to play Awakenings all the way through without the Rosetta Stone of Wikia to help you through all the bullshit.

So why do I blame PC gaming for this bullshit? Because the vast majority of these issues have a fix of some kind, if you delete a .dll or copy/paste an .exe, or install somebody's mod. In most cases, Bioware figured said fix was good enough, and the console audience could go fuck themselves. Ironically, this is the kind of PC gaming stupidity that has always kept me on consoles. You put in the game and it works. Bioware comes from a PC background where they expect consumers to research how to fix their games. A "patch it later" mentality.

So if DA2 is catered more toward 360/PS3, I'm totally on board. Especially if that refers to the level of compatibility.

Why don't you blame console gamers which don't give a fuck about mediocre products, unfinished games, poor dlc, restrictions, paying higher, etc....?

They don't expect end users to fix it. End users step up and try to fix what they believe is wrong with the game or try to enhance it to enjoy it more. It has nothing to do with the PC mentality, which now thanks to steam is click and play.


Oh, and if you expect that if a game is catered to consoles that means that it will be highly polished or it won't have any bugs.....you have to wake up from your dream. There is plenty of exclusive games which game breaking bugs or broken DLC. Don't lie to yourself.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

Less class flexibility

I haven't had a thorough look at the menus and skill trees but I think it's too early to tell that really.

Less tactical combat

I played the first one and I really don't see this. What's missing from the first tactics wise?

No playable races
No isometric camera

All valid.

No upgradable skills
Can't change party members' attire
Can't change party members' weapon specializations

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure all of that was just locked for the demo.

 

[BattleMonkey]

I don't like Femhawke saying "Have at you". Sorry little girl, you are not Dracula.

"have at you" is farily common ye olde talk found in lots of literature, especially Shakespear. Would you have preferred "come at me bro"?

 

[dalemurphy]

Less class flexibility
Less tactical combat
No playable races
No isometric camera
No upgradable skills
Can't change party members' attire
Can't change party members' weapon specializations
I'm sure there's more we don't even know about yet.

These seem to be more strategic changes primarily designed to keep players from spending as much time in menu screens micro-managing the party as opposed to actually being "dumbed down," but I can see what you're getting at with this list. These changes don't make the game inherently easier or dumber...they just give players less shit to fiddle with, which is just fine with me as a console player. I didn't think the core combat was that much different outside of the button mashing and it definitely didn't feel dumbed down. You could still pause and issue direct commands, you can still control any of your three party members at any time, you can still have control over their behavior, and you can still have a boatload of skills.

I think everyone is overreacting, and it's primarily PC players. How many Dragon Age console players are complaining?

 

[tmacairjordan87]

What are you talking about? Mass Effect 2? The game made for Xbox 360?

Yes, and it didn't stop people from complaining it was dumbed down or consolized, just because Bioware made it.

Either way it's pretty much white noise now. Every game is consolized yadda yadda..

 

[JumpJeff84]

Sorry, dumb questions that may have been answered already...

1. When does this game come out?
2. Other than graphics, what are the differences between the console and PC versions? Is the combat different?

 

[kai3345]

These seem to be more strategic changes primarily designed to keep players from spending as much time in menu screens micro-managing the party as opposed to actually being "dumbed down," but I can see what you're getting at with this list. These changes don't make the game inherently easier or dumber...they just give players less shit to fiddle with, which is just fine with me as a console player. I didn't think the core combat was that much different outside of the button mashing and it definitely didn't feel dumbed down. You could still pause and issue direct commands, you can still control any of your three party members at any time, you can still have control over their behavior, and you can still have a boatload of skills.

I think everyone is overreacting, and it's primarily PC players. How many Dragon Age console players are complaining?

The combat itself was nothing special. It was fun, and not boring. But what made it fun, along with any RPG, is the outside of combat management of your party, tactics and items that affected how you approached each combat situation.

Taking the "fiddling with shit" out just leaves average combat.

 

[vocab]

"have at you" is farily common ye olde talk found in lots of literature, especially Shakespear. Would you have preferred "come at me bro"?

Id would prefer never to hear come at bro in a video game. However, it would totally suit the visually super hot quote.

 

[Coxswain]

Yeah, or the fact you can make a macro that pushes r,1,2,3,4 and repeats and the game plays itself. If that is not a cogent argument for the gameplay being dumbed down I do not know what is.

The only reason you can't do that in DAO, at an equivalent stage of the game and difficulty level to the DA2 demo, is that DA2 has a 'select nearest target' button.

The rest of that list is largely made up of all-or-mostly cosmetic or interface issues that are definitely annoying but have little to no bearing on game mechanics (ex: isometric camera, choosing the PC's race), and some completely spurious assertions (ie: "less tactical combat").

Edit:

"have at you" is farily common ye olde talk found in lots of literature, especially Shakespear. Would you have preferred "come at me bro"?

that would have been fucking sweet

 

[ElectricBlue187]

Yes, and it didn't stop people from complaining it was dumbed down or consolized, just because Bioware made it.

Either way it's pretty much white noise now. Every game is consolized yadda yadda..

You really don't see the difference between Mass Effect 2 a part of a series of 3 console games, and Dragon Age, a game who's development started out as the return of PC specific RPGs like Baldur's Gate or are you just trolling?

 

[Salaadin]

I played the first one and I really don't see this. What's missing from the first tactics wise?

I think its hard to talk tactics just yet because all we got to fight were hordes of mindless darkspawn and 2 easy ogres in the first 20 mins of the game. The need to skip around to other characters, micro manage, and issue individual commands didnt feel necessary because it was all so easy.

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure all of that was just locked for the demo.

The only character that can wear picked up/bought armor is Hawke. Everyone else will change attire throughout the games story but their armor, etc can only be enchanted...not changed.

Because of this, I assume we will also be losing out on a lot of the cool quests from DA:O that led to great gear for your entire team.

 

[Killzig]

I haven't had a thorough look at the menus and skill trees but I think it's too early to tell that really.

They've restricted the weapons every class can equip so this does seem to be true for the moment. No more DW warriors, etc.

 

[kai3345]

"have at you" is farily common ye olde talk found in lots of literature, especially Shakespear. Would you have preferred "come at me bro"?

yes lol

 

[FLEABttn]

"have at you" is farily common ye olde talk found in lots of literature, especially Shakespear. Would you have preferred "come at me bro"?

I was hoping for something more DMX like, such as "Get at me, dog!"

 

[GuitarAtomik]

The only character that can wear picked up/bought armor is Hawke. Everyone else will change attire throughout the games story but their armor, etc can only be enchanted...not changed.

Because of this, I assume we will also be losing out on a lot of the cool quests from DA:O that led to great gear for your entire team.

Ok. I assume they did that because it sounds like certain members will be in and out of the party a lot throughout the game. Still kind of blows but not a big deal to me as long as Hawke's stuff can change.

They've restricted the weapons every class can equip so this does seem to be true for the moment. No more DW warriors, etc.

Are you sure about that? I swear I saw Dual Wielding skills in Carver's attribute menu (you couldn't upgrade them in the demo but I'm pretty sure they were there).

 

[tmacairjordan87]

nvm, it's not worth it.

 

[Patryn]

These seem to be more strategic changes primarily designed to keep players from spending as much time in menu screens micro-managing the party as opposed to actually being "dumbed down," but I can see what you're getting at with this list. These changes don't make the game inherently easier or dumber...they just give players less shit to fiddle with, which is just fine with me as a console player. I didn't think the core combat was that much different outside of the button mashing and it definitely didn't feel dumbed down. You could still pause and issue direct commands, you can still control any of your three party members at any time, you can still have control over their behavior, and you can still have a boatload of skills.

I think everyone is overreacting, and it's primarily PC players. How many Dragon Age console players are complaining?

That "fiddling with shit"? It's called complexity.

See, some people actually like micro-managing their party down to the last element. Removing that option is called dumbing down, because it assumes that you don't care or don't understand how to do that stuff.

 

[hiryu]

Haha, this thread is ridiculous in every way.

 

[Jenga]

so have they actually tried to design separate bodies this time?


old women had the exact bodies of other twenty somethings

it was kinda awkward to see wynn walk with the body of a super model

 

[kai3345]

DA1 was a throwback to those old rpgs, a one time thing. You didn't really expect them to keep that going did you? There's a reason why those style of games are dead now. The first game sold decent but did you think they would keep that going forever? Nostalgia from PC fans will only get you so far for so long. That type of rpg is D.E.A.D now.

lol are you fucking kidding me

 

[dalemurphy]

The combat itself was nothing special. It was fun, and not boring. But what made it fun, along with any RPG, is the outside of combat management of your party, tactics and items that affected how you approached each combat situation.

Taking the "fiddling with shit" out just leaves average combat.

I would argue that the combat was already average and based on the demo, I didn't see anything that made me think it was going to be much different. I enjoyed DA:O more for the characters, choices, exploration, etc.

With that said, as a console player, I didn't see any significant dumbing down of combat management, tactics, or items.

 

[Duane Cunningham]

Why don't you blame console gamers which don't give a fuck about mediocre products, unfinished games, poor dlc, restrictions, paying higher, etc....?

They don't expect end users to fix it. End users step up and try to fix what they believe is wrong with the game or try to enhance it to enjoy it more. It has nothing to do with the PC mentality, which now thanks to steam is click and play.


Oh, and if you expect that if a game is catered to consoles that means that it will be highly polished or it won't have any bugs.....you have to wake up from your dream. There is plenty of exclusive games which game breaking bugs or broken DLC. Don't lie to yourself.

I've spent the last six console generations playing games that you pull out of the box and put in the machine, then play. I've never seen anything like DA:O's bullshit. Yet when you look up how to fix all the bugs, there are answers that entail moving files around and installing mods.

Is having to fix a game's bugs on the user's end more common on PC or consoles? There's only one truthful answer to that question.

 

[loganclaws]

DA1 was a throwback to those old rpgs, a one time thing. You didn't really expect them to keep that going did you? There's a reason why those style of games are dead now. The first game sold decent but did you think they would keep that going forever? Nostalgia from PC fans will only get you so far for so long. That type of rpg is D.E.A.D now.

Wow. So it's D.E.A.D. now huh? Thanks for the emphasis but I'd like to hear your reason (of why those games are D.E.A.D. now, in case you have ADD).

Edit: Ah you deleted your post. Good job realising how silly you sounded.

 

[vocab]

lol are you fucking kidding me

lawl. I love those. THERES A REASON THOSE GAMES ARE DEAD arguments. Ya, complex games or games that take skill don't exist anymore because the end user is fucking retard.

 

[Duane Cunningham]

Hey guys, remember that time we almost beat Donkey Kong Country, but then it turns out the game freezes up on the last level, so we had to download and replace some .dll files, then it worked, and then we beat it? That sure was rad.

 

[Killzig]

Are you sure about that? I swear I saw Dual Wielding skills in Carver's attribute menu (you couldn't upgrade them in the demo but I'm pretty sure they were there).

Yessir I'm sure. Sword & Board and 2 Hander are the only weapon trees. The rest are general warrior trees and specializations.

Here's the thread on the official board that goes through all the trees. http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/6090138

 

[vocab]

Hey guys, remember that time we almost beat Donkey Kong Country, but then it turns out the game freezes up on the last level, so we had to download and replace some .dll files, then it worked, and then we beat it? That sure was rad.

Seriously, you're the biggest troll in this thread. Making shit up to prove that you have no clue about PC gaming. Good job.

 

[tmacairjordan87]

lawl. I love those. THERES A REASON THOSE GAMES ARE DEAD arguments. Ya, complex games or games that take skill aren't as popular as easy mode hit 1 button or games that aim for you. No shit.

Whatever elitist reponse you want to say, it doesn't bring them back. If it makes you feel better then run with it. I'm personally in favor of it. Watching gameplay rather than participating in it is not why I play games, though they didn't go far enough in DA2. I still think they're being hamstrung by trying to appease an extremely small base while at the same time appeasing to console players, and while doing so pissed the small base off anyway.

 

[dalemurphy]

That "fiddling with shit"? It's called complexity.

See, some people actually like micro-managing their party down to the last element. Removing that option is called dumbing down, because it assumes that you don't care or don't understand how to do that stuff.

I'm playing through Tactics Ogre right now and they could have made about a hundred choices that would have streamlined the interface to make it more user-friendly without actually changing the core game, but I'm sure people would have still screamed "they're dumbing it down" because I don't have the option to throw a stone at an enemy for one point of damage.

From what I can tell, most of the complexity is still there, it's just de-emphasized in the interface.

 

[itxaka]

I've spent the last six console generations playing games that you pull out of the box and put in the machine, then play. I've never seen anything like DA:O's bullshit. Yet when you look up how to fix all the bugs, there are answers that entail moving files around and installing mods.

Is having to fix a game's bugs on the user's end more common on PC or consoles? There's only one truthful answer to that question.

Is not common on consoles because they don't even have the option to do it. That has nothing to do with your bullshit explanation that having bugs on games to fix it later comes from pc gaming.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

I've spent the last six console generations playing games that you pull out of the box and put in the machine, then play. I've never seen anything like DA:O's bullshit. Yet when you look up how to fix all the bugs, there are answers that entail moving files around and installing mods.

Is having to fix a game's bugs on the user's end more common on PC or consoles? There's only one truthful answer to that question.

I played Dragon Age and Awakening on Steam day 1 and I never had a single issue resolved by updating files or moving them around. I double clicked on the executable and it worked. Maybe the xbox version was a real buggy mess I dunno but I don't think blaming the PC version is going to get you much traction there.

 

[HeadlessRoland]

These seem to be more strategic changes primarily designed to keep players from spending as much time in menu screens micro-managing the party as opposed to actually being "dumbed down,"

Yeah, that stuff you call "micromanaging" and "fiddling with things" is what everyone else calls depth and complexity. Its removal is the pure essence of "dumbing down".

As I said you can make a macro that pushes r,1,2,3,4 and the game becomes completely automated. It even loots and chooses dialog options for you.

 

[Snuggles]

Seriously, you're the biggest troll in this thread. Making shit up to prove that you have no clue about PC gaming. Good job.

For trolling to work, there has to be at least some semblance of truth in what you're saying. There's an art to it, which seems to be lost on him.

Anyways...no surprise that this game is causing some strife. I've decided to take a wait and see approach with it. It's likely that I'll get more enjoyment out of just reading discussion about it on here than spending $60 on it, but I'll have to detach my mouth from Bioware's tit first.

Is having to fix a game's bugs on the user's end more common on PC or consoles?

How does it matter which is more frequent? There is nothing inherent in either platform that makes it more prone to bugs, it's just a matter of how mistake-pron or sloppy the developer is. If anything, PC still has the strong advantage since patches don't require a lengthy certification process and users have the option to do what dev's neglect to do. As of now, neither of those things are possible with consoles.

Whatever elitist reponse you want to say, it doesn't bring them back.

Maybe Dragon Age: Origins was an anomaly when it comes to those types of RPG's receiving mainstream attention, or being created by a developer as popular as Bioware, but anyone with a gaming PC can tell you that there are plenty of those games still being released on the platform.

 

[vocab]

Whatever elitist reponse you want to say, it doesn't bring them back. If it makes you feel better then run with it.

I think you are just mad that you never could play games that required a brain and working hands.

 

[Gvaz]

I enjoyed DA:O more for the characters, choices, exploration

Yeah, about that for DA2...

That's not from the demo, by the way. That's generally what you see from them posting about DA2 on the Bioware blog.

 

[Coxswain]

That "fiddling with shit"? It's called complexity.

See, some people actually like micro-managing their party down to the last element. Removing that option is called dumbing down, because it assumes that you don't care or don't understand how to do that stuff.

"Dumbing down" is removing depth, not complexity. Complexity is not equal to depth; complexity is at best the inbred second cousin of depth, with a haircut that makes them look kind of the same if you're looking at them from a hundred feet away, squinting, with some dust in your eye.

You can't point to something in the game that's removed or simplified and automatically call it dumbed down; you've got to make the case that meaningful, positive functionality (ie: Depth) has been removed. I haven't been following DA2 much outside of playing the demo, so I'm in no position to say whether this has or hasn't taken place in the parts of the game that aren't included in the demo, but in the general case, you're conflating two completely different ideas.

 

[Hixx]

I played Dragon Age and Awakening on Steam day 1 and I never had a single issue resolved by updating files or moving them around. I double clicked on the executable and it worked. Maybe the xbox version was a real buggy mess I dunno but I don't think blaming the PC version is going to get you much traction there.

Awakening is pretty buggy on PC to be fair, there's basically a game breaking one as well.

 

[truly101]

Hey guys, remember that time we almost beat Donkey Kong Country, but then it turns out the game freezes up on the last level, so we had to download and replace some .dll files, then it worked, and then we beat it? That sure was rad.

I called this shit two weeks ago. Evillore knew exactly what he was doing

 

[HeadlessRoland]

You can't point to something in the game that's removed or simplified and automatically call it dumbed down; you've got to make the case that meaningful, positive functionality (ie: Depth) has been removed.

You mean like the ability to upgrade specific skills and alter the equipment of your party? Or a simple macro can complete the demo? Or the huge limitation in what one can wear or use? Or auto attack-loot-approach?