Support NeoGAF

[DeFiBkIlLeR]

It is something between 7850 and 7870

It's simple, I don't understand why people don't get this, on paper the PS4 GPU is basically a 7850, in reality, with the tools available to the Dev's and lack of PC overheads, it will perform closer to a 7870.

In PC land, the difference between a 7850 and 7870 when it comes to actual in game frame rates is only about 20%, so making up that deficiency won't be difficult.

 

[thunder_snail]

Does anyone else think 10% for snap is a bit too much? I mean 10% of 1.31 tfops is 131 gigaflops. It seems unrealistic that snap will take away that much resources since all the heavy lifting for stuff like skype and tv features would be done on those coprocessors (scaling, av-in handling, video encode/decode etc). Hell the entire gpu in the new IPhone 5s is said to be 76.8 gigaflops.

 

[benny_a]

The amount reserved isn't going to be adjusted just because the clock changed. It will still be a straight 10%.

What's the argument that snap isn't a fixed amount of processing?

 

[JaggedSac]

The amount reserved isn't going to be adjusted just because the clock changed. It will still be a straight 10%.

Have you read this somewhere?

 

[DieH@rd]

Does anyone else think 10% for snap is a bit too much? I mean 10% of 1.31 tfops is 131 gigaflops. It seems unrealistic that snap will take away that much resources since all the heavy lifting for stuff like skype and tv features would be done on those coprocessors (scaling, av-in handling, video encode/decode etc). Hell the entire gpu in the new IPhone 5s is said to be 76.8 gigaflops.

OS is also responsible for voice recognition from kinect2, video processinng from kinect2, game dvr, skype, etc...

MS needs to always reserve CPU/GPU resorces for the "worst case scenario".

 

[thunder_snail]

OS is also responsible for video processing, voice recognition from kinect2, video processinng from kinect2, game dvr, skype, etc...

MS needs to always reserve CPU/GPU resorces for the "worst case scenario".

It's been said somewhere 2 CPU cores are reserved for running the OS. I'm assuming OS will use the sound chip, video encode/decode chip, scaler chip etc for all of the functions you've mentioned above so they don't affect the GPU. In that case, all that the GPU will have to do is to render the output which I can't imagine allocating 10% of GPU time slice towards is reasonable. I think even 5% is pushing it. Is there a source saying 10% GPU time slice is used for snap?

If the worst case scenario happens, either the game or the snapped app will slow down a little bit, which is not that big of a deal imo.

 

[Chobel]

It's been said somewhere 2 CPU cores are reserved for running the OS. I'm assuming OS will use the sound chip, video encode/decode chip, scaler chip etc for all of the functions you've mentioned above so they don't affect the GPU. In that case, all that the GPU will have to do is to render the output which I can't imagine allocating 10% of GPU time slice towards is reasonable. I think even 5% is pushing it. Is there a source saying 10% GPU time slice is used for snap?

If the worst case scenario happens, either the game or the snapped app will slow down a little bit, which is not that big of a deal imo.

Source for 10% GPU
http://kotaku.com/the-five-possible-states-of-xbox-one-games-are-strangel-509597078

1) Running: The game is loaded in memory and is fully running. The game has full access to the reserved system resources, which are six CPU cores, 90 percent of GPU processing power, and 5 GB of memory. The game is rendering full-screen and the user can interact with it.

Snap takes 10% from GPU because it is used for metro apps which are hardware accelerated, and I think every metro app can be snapped.

 

[thunder_snail]

I see. Those metro apps better be amazing since it's taking away 130 gigaflops. Hell, that's more than half the flops of x360's gpu.

 

[alterego]

If you account for XBone reserving 10% GPU for snap then the PS4 GPU is 56% more powerful (1.84TF vs 1.18TF)

 

[Gemüsepizza]

I just took a look at the GTA comparison thread. Imo even differences like this are already pretty big, and the prospect that differences between PS4 / X1 will be probably even bigger made me just shudder to think about future DF threads lol.

The amount reserved isn't going to be adjusted just because the clock changed. It will still be a straight 10%.

Seems a bit strange to not have a fixed amount (for example 123 GFLOPS like before).

 

[nib95]

If you account for XBone reserving 10% GPU for snap then the PS4 GPU is 56% more powerful (1.84TF vs 1.18TF)

Whilst true, I'd imagine the PS4 would reserve a little bit too. Probably not nearly as much mind.

 

[DieH@rd]

If you account for XBone reserving 10% GPU for snap then the PS4 GPU is 56% more powerful (1.84TF vs 1.18TF)

PS4 OS is also taking few % of the GPU for itself, but we dont know how much.

 

[benny_a]

PS4 OS is also taking few % of the GPU for itself, but we dont know how much.

Why would it? There is no PS4 analog to snap that I can tell based on the OS videos theyve released.

 

[onQ123]

Not to start any rumors of a PS4 upgrade or anything but a few things I seen lately has lead me to believe that there has been some kinda change that's getting better results than what was expected.

Our contacts have told us that memory reads on PS4 are 40-50 per cent quicker than Xbox One, and its ALU (Arithmetic Logic Unit) is around 50 per cent faster.

if this was after the Xbox One GPU upclock to 1.31 TFLOPS & they still say that the PS4 is 50% faster there has to be something else adding to the power gap.

“What we’re seeing with the consoles are actually that they are a little bit more powerful than we thought for a really long time – especially one of them, but I’m not going to tell you which one,"

The NFS: Rivals producer seems to be more surprised by the power of one of the Next Gen Consoles than the other.

My indie dev friend said his devkit, which is an earlier model, was 10% slower than the latest versions. That's got to be on the hardware level. Improvements to the system software and such could improve things a little more, on top of the developers' experience with extracting better utilisation of new hardware.

He said, "it's an older devkit so it's not as fast as the current ones. It's about ten percent slower."

About a week ago Shifty Geezer a mod on Beyond3D said that one of his Dev friends told him that the devkit that he was using was 10% slower than the new devkits.



Could be the customization to the PS4 SoC starting to show it's power.

 

[nib95]

Not to start any rumors of a PS4 upgrade or anything but a few things I seen lately has lead me to believe that there has been some kinda change that's getting better results than what was expected.



if this was after the Xbox One GPU upclock to 1.31 TFLOPS & they still say that the PS4 is 50% faster there has to be something else adding to the power gap.




The NFS: Rivals producer seems to be more surprised by the power of one of the Next Gen Consoles than the other.






About a week ago Shifty Geezer a mod on Beyond3D said that one of his Dev friends told him that the devkit that he was using was 10% slower than the new devkits.



Could be the customization to the PS4 SoC starting to show it's power.

Good finds. Guess we'll have to wait and see, but I'm guessing optimisations and better tools are responsible instead of a hardware bump, but you never know.

 

[onQ123]

Good finds. Guess we'll have to wait and see, but I'm guessing optimisations and better tools are responsible instead of a hardware bump, but you never know.

Well the dev said that his devkit was 10% slower than the new one's so it might be a change in the hardware on the devkits.

 

[DieH@rd]

Why would it? There is no PS4 analog to snap that I can tell based on the OS videos theyve released.

Because OS always need to have some piece of GPU at its desposal. We already have confirmation that you can access game livestreams, game videos from friends pages, store, web browser and entertainment apps [Netflix] while PS4 gaming is active. Same as MS, Sony needs to think about "worst case usage scenario" and carve appropriate ammount of HW resources for that [% when game is fullscreen, % when game is in background, % when game is not loaded].

 

[AstroNut325]

We're 90 pages into this thread. What have we learned?

 

[gruenel]

We're 90 pages into this thread. What have we learned?

Nothing we didn't know before.

 

[Razgreez]

Because OS always need to have some piece of GPU at its desposal. We already have confirmation that you can access game livestreams, game videos from friends pages, store, web browser and entertainment apps [Netflix] while PS4 gaming is active. Same as MS, Sony needs to think about "worst case usage scenario" and carve appropriate ammount of HW resources for that [% when game is fullscreen, % when game is in background, % when game is not loaded].

This is one of the few topics surrounding the PS4 that nobody appears to be clear on. Does the companion processor handle the GPU requirements of applications and the OS or does the GPU have to reserve performance for them?

Or perhaps i'm mistaken and they actually were referring to the CPU cores dedicated to the OS

 

[stryke]

Because OS always need to have some piece of GPU at its desposal. We already have confirmation that you can access game livestreams, game videos from friends pages, store, web browser and entertainment apps [Netflix] while PS4 gaming is active. Same as MS, Sony needs to think about "worst case usage scenario" and carve appropriate ammount of HW resources for that [% when game is fullscreen, % when game is in background, % when game is not loaded].

I think Eltorro eloquently addresses why this might not be the case.

Why should the PS4 reserve any non-trivial GPU time for anything other than the game when the game is the only application rendering graphics during gaming? The XBO runs snapped Metro apps concurrently with the actual games, and since Metro is a hardware-accelerated UI and the WinRT-based apps have access to rendering capabilities, GPU time reservation is necessary. This does not apply to the PS4 which simply doesn't have the snap feature. As others already said, background tasks are much better put on the CPU.

 

[nib95]

ElTorro is pretty well versed on this sort of stuff. Post does sound reasonable.

 

[amstradcpc]

Well the dev said that his devkit was 10% slower than the new one's so it might be a change in the hardware on the devkits.

Well, it has sense but if some component was upgraded why doesn´t Sony make it public?.

 

[SEGAvangelist]

Well, it has sense but if some component was upgraded why doesn´t Sony make it public?.

I think this is a question for misterxmedia.

 

[Shambles]

We're 90 pages into this thread. What have we learned?

You're about to learn that 100ppp > 50ppp both numerically and practically.

 

[gruenel]

Well, it has sense but if some component was upgraded why doesn´t Sony make it public?.

Sony’s Tokyo Game Show Keynote Will Provide “Detailed Specification” of PS4 and its Exclusive Games

http://www.dualshockers.com/2013/09...specification-of-ps4-and-its-exclusive-games/

Believe.

 

[illustri0us]

I think this is a question for misterxmedia.

thought id just check out his site... and found this lol

http://misterxmedia.livejournal.com/135777.html

more fuel for this thread

 

[onQ123]

Well, it has sense but if some component was upgraded why doesn´t Sony make it public?.

Because that doesn't mean that there has been a upgrade to the PS4 it self.

could be that the newer devkits are just getting the other PS4 customization added in hardware or something. I remember reading something about the Killzone:SF demo being created on the devkits without the audio chip.

 

[SEGAvangelist]

thought id just check out his site... and found this lol

http://misterxmedia.livejournal.com/135777.html

more fuel for this thread

No. Not at all. lol

That's like the worst fuel ever. Dude is retarded.

 

[Petalpusher]

Adding CPU and GPU flops isn't a good metric of overall performance since they're used in different ways.

I agree it's not at all to add cpu and gpu like this.

For GPU, Flops is the one important metric, but not the only one, bandwitdh, fillrate, texel capabilities are also important. If you consider the 3, it's equally important than the pure Gflops count, probably even more.

The true advantages the 360 had, were unified memory, unified shaders and really fast eDRAM dedicated to framebuffer and directly linked to ROPs, theorically it was x10 faster than the main memory (GDDR3). The Gflops difference is kinda irrevelant since it was two different architecture, and it's rarely a good comparison to do. This generation makes things way easier to compare, it's just less or more of the same building block (CUs)

 

[amstradcpc]

ElTorro is pretty well versed on this sort of stuff. Post does sound reasonable.

plus we must consider Liverpool GPU has the Vshell high priority graphics pipeline that allow apps and OS to take over the entire GPU when needed moving out the game code from it.

 

[Insane Metal]

thought id just check out his site... and found this lol

http://misterxmedia.livejournal.com/135777.html

more fuel for this thread

Please no. Not this guy again.

 

[SEGAvangelist]

Please no. Not this guy again.

Don't worry. No one here takes him seriously.

 

[BruceWayneIII]

Because that doesn't mean that there has been a upgrade to the PS4 it self.

could be that the newer devkits are just getting the other PS4 customization added in hardware or something. I remember reading something about the Killzone:SF demo being created on the devkits without the audio chip.

Could you by any chance find that article again?

 

[amstradcpc]

Because that doesn't mean that there has been a upgrade to the PS4 it self.

could be that the newer devkits are just getting the other PS4 customization added in hardware or something. I remember reading something about the Killzone:SF demo being created on the devkits without the audio chip.

Which component could add a 10% performance to a game engine?. Sound module is the only one that would free some cpu tasks ( what? half a core? ) but the others i doubt ( video encode and decode present in almost all AMD gpus is not gaming related, and zlib de/compressor would be beneficial with only some heavy streamed engines ).

 

[nib95]

Which component could add a 10% performance to a game code?. Sound module is the only one that would free some cpu tasks ( what? half a core? ) but the others i doubt ( video encode and decode present in almost all AMD gpus, and zlib de/compressor ).

Not component, but an upclock of some kind on the cpu and/or gpu.

 

[H_Prestige]

Crippled PS4 version to not piss off Microsoft will be common practice

So what happens when MS gets pissed off?

 

[stryke]

Could you by any chance find that article again?

Pretty sure it was mentioned in the Feb demo post mortem presentation

http://www.guerrilla-games.com/presentations/Valient_Killzone_Shadow_Fall_Demo_Postmortem.pdf

 

[phosphor112]

thought id just check out his site... and found this lol

http://misterxmedia.livejournal.com/135777.html

more fuel for this thread

Fuel? What fuel? The dude is crazy. He has a track record of 0% accuracy.

His website needs to be on the banned list.

 

[mrklaw]

Because OS always need to have some piece of GPU at its desposal. We already have confirmation that you can access game livestreams, game videos from friends pages, store, web browser and entertainment apps [Netflix] while PS4 gaming is active. Same as MS, Sony needs to think about "worst case usage scenario" and carve appropriate ammount of HW resources for that [% when game is fullscreen, % when game is in background, % when game is not loaded].

pressing the PS button and suspending the game means you can use the full power of the PS4 for apps. You can run web browser etc because it uses the reserved OS memory and the game just sits there suspended. Like Vita. Some background tasks like streaming audio for custom soundtracks can run at the same time but they will only use CPU, not GPU. Basically PS4 runs one visual application at a time (game *or* app)

Xbox is fundamentally different because you can run two things side by side *at the same time* using snap

 

[KimonoNoNo]

We're 90 pages into this thread. What have we learned?

Eltorro said it best in gif form.

 

[Krakn3Dfx]

So what happens when MS gets pissed off?

Use of Dark Side powers fully authorized.

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

thought id just check out his site... and found this lol

http://misterxmedia.livejournal.com/135777.html

more fuel for this thread

What the fuck am I reading? This is some fairy tale shit.

 

[amstradcpc]

Not component, but an upclock of some kind on the cpu and/or gpu.

So do i think. I still think Jaguar will be clocked higher than 1.6. But i find very strange the final clock has not leaked after XB1 cpu has been claimed to be clocked at 1,75 GHz.

 

[SEGAvangelist]

Eltorro said it best in gif form.

It really is the G(if)otY... maybe best of all time. I've watched it at least 20 times already.

 

[Hollow]

thought id just check out his site... and found this lol

http://misterxmedia.livejournal.com/135777.html

more fuel for this thread

 

[stryke]

Don't worry. No one here takes him seriously.

And thank god for that.

Another forum I frequent had people in the X1 thread latching onto the possibility of a second gpu. Really shows how desperate some people are.

 

[spatenfloot]

Not component, but an upclock of some kind on the cpu and/or gpu.

Wouldn't an OS revision have a similar effect?

 

[ViciousDS]

So what happens when MS gets pissed off?

This is what I'm wondering, what are they going to do....forbid them from releasing software for there customers.....it would just drive away buyers. I would easily use the extra power of the PS4 to bring up the graphics quality. It never stopped PC always being on top......crap I forgot Microsoft sells windows there so they can moneyhat either way.

Seriously though Microsoft denying a publisher rights to their system would just make it even worse and would only drive away customers because they couldn't get the next Bioshock or something on their console because Microsoft doesn't want to look inferior at their more expensive design approach of motion gaming over core gaming.

 

[SEGAvangelist]

And thank god for that.

Another forum I frequent had people in the X1 thread latching onto the possibility of a second gpu. Really shows how desperate some people are.

His articles are hilarious. It's kinda how I felt back in the Dennis580 days. That dude was legend.