grandjedi6
Master of the Google Search
You don't get survivors from plane crashes
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Egypt Air flight from Paris disappears from radar
- Thread starter jbug617
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Alx
Member
You have to wonder if those life jackets really have a purpose, other than reassuring the passengers.
I suppose they're sometimes used in minor accidents that don't make the headlines ?
fierrotlepou
Member
Edit: nvm
UnluckyKate
Member
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SliceSabre
Banned
There's never time to wear them during the fall. Everyone falls unconscious or starts to panic. Instructions are for controller landing scenarios
And even then, seawater is almost always cold. I shudder to think that someone survived crashes in the past, only to succumb to the elements while rescue efforts could have already arrived. We are wasting so much time on combing huge areas for debris after an impact. This should really be a much faster (and cheaper) endeavour if the planes were designed to report their telemetry at the very least on impact with the ground or seawater. But what do I know. Just ranting and raving, really.
Palette Swap
Member
This is going to sound very macabre and I apologize, but I was curious about how often people survive mid-flight crashes.
Looking at Wikipedia's page about crashes resulting in at least 50 fatalities, and filtering on mid-flight crashes since 1980 :
- 10 of the 103 crashes had at least one survivor.
- there were a total of 116 survivors for 13,073 fatalities (excluding ground fatalities).
So yeah, odds are pretty slim.
My heart jumped when I saw the picture without any context thinking this was the plane.
Restroom fire?
adamsappel
Member
I'd assume it's the lavatory smoke detector reporting a larger fire.
jufonuk
not tag worthy
Anything would only be speculation at the moment, but it does point to some kind of fire event at the front of the aircraft.
Time indications in minutes, events span 3 minutes.
Is Avionics considered cockpit?
Avionics bay is under the cockpit.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Guessing the majority of those crashes were also during takeoff or landing when the plane was near the ground and not at cruising speed
Interesting. Total speculation but perhaps fire/smoke from an explosive device which then exploded. Fire/smoke alone would take long enough to spread that distress calls would've been made. Just a thought.
Black boxes and debris analysis are needed before we have any real idea.
Very much so.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
The med is a lot easier than the Atlantic or Indian correct?
As horrible as it is in this case I'm hoping the crash was caused by a mechanical failure.
If terrorists have found a way to reliably sneak small bombs on airplanes it would be terrifying.
Well that's.. puzzling. Especially considering it's still a further three minutes out from the moment the transponder stopped.
Surely someone in the toilets wouldn't be able to burn down the plane? Why no distress call if it was slowly filling up with smoke? Were the pilots busy doing something else?
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Pilots are trained to fly the plane before worrying about communications.
TWA-800 exploded 12 minutes after take off. Terrorism was suspected, but it took a very long time to determine the cause. And even then, parts of what caused the crash are still speculative.
Don't expect quick answers when the crash site is found. Not equating the two disasters as they were very different situations, just saying it could take a while to determine a cause, even after they find the black boxes.
Don't expect quick answers when the crash site is found. Not equating the two disasters as they were very different situations, just saying it could take a while to determine a cause, even after they find the black boxes.
jufonuk
not tag worthy
is that the flight that people speculate a missile shot it down?
yes and the longest investigation in NTSB history. 4.5 years to figure out what happened.
to this day, yup
Man, what are those last two ACARS messages all about, I wonder. Is that a Flight controller failure message? Someone knowledgable translate this character salad, please. Or point me to an ACARS dictionary. That works as well.
(Please, don't be some nutter who hid himself in the lavatory to brew up some explosive cocktail with a handful of shampoo bottles filled with chemicals. These kinds of explosives are notoriously unreliable (remember the guy with the plastics explosives in his underpants?), so I'd hate to see them succeed against all odds.)
(Please, don't be some nutter who hid himself in the lavatory to brew up some explosive cocktail with a handful of shampoo bottles filled with chemicals. These kinds of explosives are notoriously unreliable (remember the guy with the plastics explosives in his underpants?), so I'd hate to see them succeed against all odds.)
According to this, which seems pretty accurate, it seems that the last two messages indicate that the Autopilot Flight Control Units lost one of the data channels, then one of the plane's Spoiler and Elevation Control units failed.
Not something you want to happen on an FBW airliner.
Nope. It does seem that the Airbus had redundant systems (supposed to be three SECs and 2 channels for the FCUs) but with how quick the errors seemed to pile up even in that short excerpt, combined with smoke warnings in the Avionics bay, well... seems like everything else probably failed not much long after.
s_mirage
Member
Interesting ACARS messages. Reminds me a bit of the Columbia accident: a growing series of errors over a few minutes. A propagating fire in the wiring maybe? Totally uneducated, and likely to be incorrect, guess on my part though.
These incidents are tragic but I must admit to finding the investigation of them fascinating.
These incidents are tragic but I must admit to finding the investigation of them fascinating.
Those ACAR messages paint a grim picture. Thanks for the link and explanation, CMDBob.
Fascinating stuff. Wish I had a happier reason to dive into this document, but whatever keeps the hands and mind busy, I guess.
Meanwhile, I've stumbled upon someone claiming this might already have been after the fact and we're only witnessing the results of a cabin decompression resulting in mist/fog which could trigger the smoke detectors, and the rest of the sensors already firing at random as the plane shakes apart. Others claim it could have been a result from an impact to the frontal/right side of the cockpit windshield, which would also explain why the crew didn't manage to get out a mayday, but others yet again point out we'd see an ACAR message about a pressure differential between the cabin and cockpit, unless the impactor continued to travel through the wall behind the cockpit, and yet others... Jeez. I think I need a break. As much as the ACARS log snippet tells us, as little does it help without additional info.
Also, four minutes between the beginning of the log snippet and loss of contact. Four freaking minutes. Just enough time for me to make a good cup of tea. Cripes.
Fascinating stuff. Wish I had a happier reason to dive into this document, but whatever keeps the hands and mind busy, I guess.
Meanwhile, I've stumbled upon someone claiming this might already have been after the fact and we're only witnessing the results of a cabin decompression resulting in mist/fog which could trigger the smoke detectors, and the rest of the sensors already firing at random as the plane shakes apart. Others claim it could have been a result from an impact to the frontal/right side of the cockpit windshield, which would also explain why the crew didn't manage to get out a mayday, but others yet again point out we'd see an ACAR message about a pressure differential between the cabin and cockpit, unless the impactor continued to travel through the wall behind the cockpit, and yet others... Jeez. I think I need a break. As much as the ACARS log snippet tells us, as little does it help without additional info.
Also, four minutes between the beginning of the log snippet and loss of contact. Four freaking minutes. Just enough time for me to make a good cup of tea. Cripes.
protomouse
Member
Hopefully the CVR/FDR can be found quickly.
Ether_Snake
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Seems increasingly less likely that this was a terrorist attack. http://www.theguardian.com/world/li...04-search-for-crash-wreckage-intensifies-live
Trump going to look real dumb if it's eventually confirmed it wasn't an attack.
Trump going to look real dumb if it's eventually confirmed it wasn't an attack.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Only thing that doesn't seem to fit with a fire is that there was no communications in the 3 minutes after that first alarm. No communications just seems like it was something very, very sudden.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
It clearly wasn't sudden, the plane did a 90 degree turn, then a 360 turn, dropped altitude by a lot, etc. It's possible the communications were toasted. I mean we don't know what happened with MH370 but it apparently flew for many hours without communications either.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
That just makes lack of communications all the more baffling. Pilots are taught to fly the plane first, but no mayday call just seems odd.
Are there communications dead zones over the Mediterranean?
jellies_two
Member
So terrorists have smoke bombs they can place in the avionics bay 3 minutes before the plane falls apart? That's very clever of them.
It's sounding a bit more like a fire onboard, possibly electrical.
It's sounding a bit more like a fire onboard, possibly electrical.
The sequence of events could be a result of multiple causes, possible incursion of a foreign object outside of the plane, fire on board due to smoking in the fore lav, fire due to lithium batteries as well as more nefarious causes.
Looking at the fire angle, planes are pretty well equipped to deal with fire, the av bay is constructed of fire retardant materials, I don't know if a fire could spread that quickly as such to destroy a plane in 3 mins.
As for the lack of comms, I believe whatever happened happened at ATC handover so the lack of distress could be down to the pilot workload being so great that they were just so focus on aviation, or that the pilots hand already become incapacitated.
I hope that the FDR and CVR are recovered quickly and they can piece together what actually happened.
It's a terrible thing to happen but at least if they can use what happened to make commercial flight a bit safer and stop what happened happening again, then maybe those that died didn't die completely in vain.
Looking at the fire angle, planes are pretty well equipped to deal with fire, the av bay is constructed of fire retardant materials, I don't know if a fire could spread that quickly as such to destroy a plane in 3 mins.
As for the lack of comms, I believe whatever happened happened at ATC handover so the lack of distress could be down to the pilot workload being so great that they were just so focus on aviation, or that the pilots hand already become incapacitated.
I hope that the FDR and CVR are recovered quickly and they can piece together what actually happened.
It's a terrible thing to happen but at least if they can use what happened to make commercial flight a bit safer and stop what happened happening again, then maybe those that died didn't die completely in vain.
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