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[The Albatross]

On the flight attendant thing, couldn't US airlines get away with that by basically using the Hooter's standard? Hire women as "models" therefore giving the company discretion on appearance.

Lots of good info, though.

Hooters operates in an un-unionized industry that has notably weak labor organization... E.g., restaurant (or bar, club, etc) owners control the industry with relatively little regulation. This isn't the case with airlines, which are tightly regulated, only have a handful of national operators, and have strong unions. There would have to be a significant shift in power for an American airline company to consider flight attendants as 'models,' rather than career employees.

I don't want to make the Unions sound like bad guys, though, I think they're important and they protect the interests of airline employees.

There's a good article from an air travel insider that goes into more depth for why air travel sucks in the US and a lot of it is that we have a huge chasm between the cost of our ticket and the service we expect. The article makes the analogy between "paying WalMart prices but expecting Nordstrom service."

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Hooters operates in an un-unionized industry that has notably weak labor organization... E.g., restaurant (or bar, club, etc) owners control the industry with relatively little regulation. This isn't the case with airlines, which are tightly regulated, only have a handful of national operators, and have strong unions. There would have to be a significant shift in power for an American airline company to consider flight attendants as 'models,' rather than career employees.

Ah yeah forgot flight attendants would naturally have a union too. But the Hooter's situation was upheld in a court case, right? I understand that due to unions, it wouldn't happen(for good reason), but assuming one was absent, nothing would prevent them from doing it?

 

[The Albatross]

Ah yeah forgot flight attendants would naturally have a union too. But the Hooter's situation was upheld in a court case, right? I understand that due to unions, it wouldn't happen(for good reason), but assuming one was absent, nothing would prevent them from doing it?

If there weren't airline unions and the public had no expectation to uphold the dignity of airline employees, then, yeah, I'd imagine that American airline companies would start treating their employees like Hooters-girls or like Singapore Air employees. Only hire beautiful women, fire them if they're get ugly or fat, have extreme unfair standards of personal appearance, and have only short term contracts forcing employees to compete with each other to get another short term contract.

But even without a union or any of the laws preventing that from happening, I'm not sure if the US public would accept that.

Hooters is fairly successful, but it's permitted to exist partly because there is so much competition in the service industry. If a girl is fired from Hooters for not being pretty enough, she could likely get hired at one of 50 other national food chains for arguably higher wages and a better working environment. This isn't the case in the airline industry, where there's only one or two large airlines operating out of large cities.

I also think people are willing to go to Hooters for a beer and wings, but might not accept the same out of an airline.

 

[AllenShrz]

Yep, sounds about right. It is always a pleasure flight with those on the list, except Turkish.... is not bad but the others are on another league.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

For a short flight EasyJet is fine.

I flew from Gatwick to Athens once.

Never again.

 

[Stinkles]

Only ones on there that don't make sense to me are ANA and Lufthansa, which are both basically clean, polite versions of Delta International, which is itself not bad but not listworthy.

Special mention to BA for deliberately turning to shit.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

If there weren't airline unions and the public had no expectation to uphold the dignity of airline employees, then, yeah, I'd imagine that American airline companies would start treating their employees like Hooters-girls or like Singapore Air employees. Only hire beautiful women, fire them if they're get ugly or fat, have extreme unfair standards of personal appearance, and have only short term contracts forcing employees to compete with each other to get another short term contract.

But even without a union or any of the laws preventing that from happening, I'm not sure if the US public would accept that.

Hooters is fairly successful, but it's permitted to exist partly because there is so much competition in the service industry. If a girl is fired from Hooters for not being pretty enough, she could likely get hired at one of 50 other national food chains for arguably higher wages and a better working environment. This isn't the case in the airline industry, where there's only one or two large airlines operating out of large cities.

I also think people are willing to go to Hooters for a beer and wings, but might not accept the same out of an airline.

All makes sense. I forget I've seen stories where the US went through this towards the end of the 1960s and into the 1970s with the rise of women's rights movements, etc.

 

[AllenShrz]

Only ones on there that don't make sense to me are ANA and Lufthansa, which are both basically clean, polite versions of Delta International, which is itself not bad but not listworthy.

Special mention to BA for deliberately turning to shit.

ANA is waaaaaaay better than your average airline and leaves Delta on the dust. Delta is just ok but does not go the extra mile as the other airlines on the list do.

 

[Z3K]

Hooters operates in an un-unionized industry that has notably weak labor organization... E.g., restaurant (or bar, club, etc) owners control the industry with relatively little regulation. This isn't the case with airlines, which are tightly regulated, only have a handful of national operators, and have strong unions. There would have to be a significant shift in power for an American airline company to consider flight attendants as 'models,' rather than career employees.

I don't want to make the Unions sound like bad guys, though, I think they're important and they protect the interests of airline employees.

There's a good article from an air travel insider that goes into more depth for why air travel sucks in the US and a lot of it is that we have a huge chasm between the cost of our ticket and the service we expect. The article makes the analogy between "paying WalMart prices but expecting Nordstrom service."

Do flight attendants in the US earn good salary then?

I know Emirates pays staff about $1100 basic salary a month then about $15 per flight hour on top (all tax free).

 

[AllenShrz]

Do flight attendants in the US earn good salary then?

I know Emirates pays staff about $1100 basic salary a month then about $15 per flight hour on top (all tax free).

What?! that low? How is they manage to get that staff? Good looking and always polite, both men and women.

 

[R10Neymarfan]

On the flight attendant thing, couldn't US airlines get away with that by basically using the Hooter's standard? Hire women as "models" therefore giving the company discretion on appearance.

Lots of good info, though.

The union thing must be recent for the past 3 decades. Because I remember watching documentaries and stuff of airlines of old. And the flight attendants were of the same standard the international airlines were.

And I swear US airlines had competition back then too.

 

[rrvv]

Outside low cost carrier. I only use top 6 from my international flight need.

Man i cannot image what it feel like to use inferior one :3

What?! that low? How is they manage to get that staff? Good looking and always polite, both men and women.

most of their staff is come from 3rd world country. so they dont really mind for lower pay compare to western counterpart

 

[SoRuffShoNuff]

Why is there so little backlash against Qatar Airlines when you can't even bring up Qatar as a country without getting told about how horrible workers have it there?

 

[Z3K]

What?! that low? How is they manage to get that staff? Good looking and always polite, both men and women.

They hire from all over the place, plenty of Kenyans, Ethiopians, Malaysians, Thai etc..
The salary to people coming from those countries would be considered quite good and they also get to live in Dubai in free accommodation and free healthcare.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

I've flown with Emirates on return trips to Dubai.

Thy definitely earned that spot.

I once was upgraded to business class on the A380 - it was unlike any flying experience, had lobster and steak in the air..... Fuck it was good too

 

[Devilgunman]

What?! that low? How is they manage to get that staff? Good looking and always polite, both men and women.

I have a cousin working for Emirates. For many ladies, getting a chance to work there is like a dream and that salary is considered "high" in SEA.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

The union thing must be recent for the past 3 decades. Because I remember watching documentaries and stuff of airlines of old. And the flight attendants were of the same standard the international airlines were.

And I swear US airlines had competition back then too.

I guess so.

I think movements in women's rights and rise of unions helped to level the playing field and keep airlines from only hiring certain types of women... or men. Especially since the 1970s.

 

[rambis]

Why is there so little backlash against Qatar Airlines when you can't even bring up Qatar as a country without getting told about how horrible workers have it there?

I think its because this thread is mostly of people who have actually been to these countries instead of just reading how horrible it supposedly is.

 

[RustyNails]

What?! that low? How is they manage to get that staff? Good looking and always polite, both men and women.

Cost of living elsewhere is considerably cheaper outside US. That salary is actually quite decent when converted to local currency.

 

[AllenShrz]

Cost of living elsewhere is considerably cheaper outside US. That salary is actually quite decent when converted to local currency.

Not if they live in Dubai.

 

[Shanks D Zoro]

I really want to fly Emirates business class.

Looks fantastic, Bvlgari amenities, sky lounge, and complimentary chauffeur to and from the airport.

Sadly because of the Dubai stop over it wouldn't have gotten me to London from Seoul for Christmas.

Maybe next year ((

 

[TheSecondSpitter]

Not if they live in Dubai.

No income tax?

 

[texhnolyze]

Woah, Garuda Indonesia is at number 11!

Besides AirAsia which is actually a Malaysin airline, that's pretty much all.

 

[MikeHattsu]

way cheaper, actually. They get subsidized by the Emirates, which is why they can afford to offer top quality service for a low price. Their entertainment library is great and free Champagne even for economy class is pretty nice (on top of affordable ticket prices). I think they've won the awards several times in recent years

Well, so far in the 2010s Qatar has been 1st 3 times, Emirates 2 times and Asiana and Cathay Pacific 1 time each.

Qatar and Singapore has been the most stable, with them being in the top 3 each year so far.

 

[Lego Boss]

Is this supposed to include US Airlines that have international flights? I don't see any on there.

Why isn't the US #1?

I thought US airlines would be the best in the world.

ANd then I flew with them. Specifically United. The single worst aviation expereince I have ever had.

Didn't have a record of my ESTA (HS then started getting involved at Heathrow telling me I couldn't fly); late arriving into Texas so had to wait three hours to get through immigration for a connecting flight to SLC, which I made by about two minutes, only for them to lose my luggage for four days ('It's in Chicago').

Whenever someone asks me for a tip I say: 'Don't fly United Airlines'.

 

[Wellington]

I just flew Emirates first a few days ago (thanks to a boatload of points) and it was really wonderful. Awesome experience and I would love to do it again. That said I flew Etihad biz last year (Points!) and actually had a better, more seamless experience. I am 6'4" and fit comfortably in the lie flat position on the Emirates seat, while the Etihad seat was too short. They are both MILES above AA/Delta/United Biz/first tho. I had AA platinum and Delta gold for a while so I am extremely familiar with both of their fleets and products across a large array of aircrafts.

That said, not sure if it's 'cause it was JFK but the Emirates Lounge there, while better than the normal AA/DL Lounge (never been to a First Class lounge) wasn't that great. Felt like there was zero service.

I hope to round out the ME3 with Qatar in the next few years but I don't really have any plans to head anywhere where it would benefit me.

I *REALLY* want to try Singapore and Cathay tho. Need more vacation time.

 

[Neko Mimi Mode]

Shout out to Turkish Airlines who keep surprising me with just how pleasant an experience they provide. Second only to Etihad and Emirates in my experience.

 

[victreeb3l]

For a US Airline, it's pretty good. I mean, it doesn't do anything spectacularly different, but the food, seats, video, and lighting set it apart.



Eh. I like it for how corny it is. My aunt called it "grotesque".

But yeah, not the best for an early morning flight or probably even for the stewards.

Who the fuck knows what will happen to it when they fully merge with Alaskan next year.

My favorite part about that video were the models. They sure cast well at least.

I hope I can combine my Alaskan and VA points when the merge is finished and then take Alaskan Airlines on typical VA routes. I was pissed VA didn't have a power outlet when I flew from LA to NYC a while back. Grrr.

 

[br0ken_shad0w]

I was looking at Emirates and Etihad for trip to Asia but no flight is worth adding another 10-20 hours in the air.

Doing Eva Air business class Hello Kitty edition in a week or so. Can't wait!

 

[lenos16]

I cab vouch for Emirates, their service is great even in Economy. Can't say I'm surprised about the American Airlines though, flew international once with United, never again. The service was bad, the seats were crowded etc.
And for people arguing about union restrictions, Lufthansa is ranked at #10... and they have unions in Germany as well

 

[Imp the Dimp]

#1 easyJet

 

[Deleted member 1235]

i'm surprised Air New Zealand doesn't show on the list. quality airline, always had a really nice experience flying internationally with them.

 

[Burgess_101]

I fly to Germany regularly and Lufthansa are always top notch. Free snack and drinks (including beer!). Usually the flights aren't packed either and I get a whole row of seats to myself.

 

[Aztechnology]

This is a really good question and one that is rarely asked, and people dismissively say "because they want to screw us!" But then, why can't international airlines come in and compete with American airline companies, which would then cause the US Airlines, JetBlues, and others, to start competing...? Well, because they're not allowed to be law.

Non-American airline companies cannot provide domestic flights in the US because of 'cabotage' restrictions, an ancient word, but the law of the land. It's a protectionist law but it also prevents a company like Emirates from coming in and flying vastly cheaper flights using vastly lesser paid employees, getting gas subsidies from the UAE, and paying no corporate taxes in the UAE. If Emirates came in and competed directly with Delta, Delta would be put out of business.

But beyond that, the flying experience is further made worse in the US By a few major factors:

• There is very little competition between country-wide air travel. You have 3 major country-wide airlines, and then mostly only regional airlines, but because of individual contracts at specific airports, one airline will "dominate" an airport and consider it their "hub."
• Non-US airlines have wages far below US airlines, which are protected by federal laws and importantly a very strong Airline employees union.
• While Singapore or Emirates can hire only beautiful, twenty-something women, and mandate that they wear a specific outfit, wear certain makeup, and act a certain way, American airline companies are forbidden from discrimination in hiring along any race, sex, age, or gender lines. Singapore Air only hires beautiful young women for customer-facing positions who are only temporary, contract employees and only the best of the best (or most beautiful) get their contracts renewed.
• None of the US passenger flight companies are state owned or state subsidized, which isn't the case for dozens of major airlines that they compete against.
• Airline jobs are high-paying in the US and are considered "career" jobs. THis is a good thing for airline employees, but it can have mixed results for passengers, who may feel like trips to the airport are more like trips to the DMV... Airlines in other countries that generally perform highly in these comparisons are aggressive with hiring and firing, employ many workers on contractual basis, and have wages well below your average American airline employee lifer... Who may be in the industry for decades, have seniority over routes, and may not be as motivated as a young person competing for a contract. This isn't the case for all European airline companies, though it specifically is the case for Cathay, Singapore, Emirates, and many other high performing airlines.
• Geography and population density play a significant role in European air travel, and airlines also have to compete with a functioning rail system between many large cities. This drives ticket prices down. Further, there isn't government & airline collusion in Europe to limit flight numbers like there is in the US. I don't know if you remember how air travel used to be, but in the 1990s, you'd regularly fly in empty 747s in long trips... This is virtually eliminated now, and if you have an empty seat next to you on a flight, it's considered a miracle. Europe hasn't adopted this model as quickly. This leads to more flights that need seats filled at lower costs in Europe.

Appreciate the post. I think it will answer a lot of questions people are having and also tell why it's not necessarily a bad thing that the U.S flights aren't as "good".

 

[B.O.O.M]

United sucks ass! I have to fly back with them but never again...what a fking terrible experience flying with them has been

 

[MikeHattsu]

i'm surprised Air New Zealand doesn't show on the list. quality airline, always had a really nice experience flying internationally with them.

They're at #17.

 

[Best]

Emirates is probably massively helped (low taxes, low airport fees, cheap fuel, cheap debt) by being state owned. It's basically branding for the UAE. Plus considering they fly long distance (once a seat is in the air it's relatively cheap to send it further) it's not surprising costs per seat are at Ryanair and easyJet levels. Unfair to compare it to public traded US airlines.

 

[Frankfurter]

I fly to Germany regularly and Lufthansa are always top notch. Free snack and drinks (including beer!). Usually the flights aren't packed either and I get a whole row of seats to myself.

Warsteiner, too! Tasted so damn good coming back from Scotland.

 

[faridmon]

Flew with Qatar Airlines and it was indeed a great experience. Even the stewards were really friendly and chatty. Had a great time!

 

[Karu]

Basically never flew before in my life, once with Norwegian from Germany, and once to Austria, which are both like an hour long.

Flying with Emirates in two weeks to Seoul with stop in Dubai. Really looking forward to it, Economy, tho, of course.

 

[Chuckie]

Woah, Garuda Indonesia is at number 11!

Garuda has improved soo much in the last 10 years. Food is great on those flights.

I've also flown with Singapore and Cathay, both incredible.

 

[RoKKeR]

Haven't flown then before. Can confirm ANA is amazing.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

I tend to fly British Airways.

I would fly Emirates/Qatar/Ethiad but can't stand the 16 hour Dubai/Doha/Abu Dabhi to US flights.

 

[Shanks D Zoro]

I tend to fly British Airways.

I would fly Emirates/Qatar/Ethiad but can't stand the 16 hour Dubai/Doha/Abu Dabhi to US flights.

I love BA. I am flying with them this Christmas. All the free smirnoff and coke I can dream of.

 

[rambis]

Emirates is probably massively helped (low taxes, low airport fees, cheap fuel, cheap debt) by being state owned. It's basically branding for the UAE. Plus considering they fly long distance (once a seat is in the air it's relatively cheap to send it further) it's not surprising costs per seat are at Ryanair and easyJet levels. Unfair to compare it to public traded US airlines.

Not really. This is a case of the UAE being progressive and socially ahead of most other countries. It should be an example. Capitalism blows.

 

[BriareosGAF]

My favorite part about that video were the models. They sure cast well at least.

I flew Air France recently (enjoyable all around except for the stay in Logan, their international "terminal" is a joke) and found their safety video bizarre too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0N3J6fE-0JI

 

[SoRuffShoNuff]

I think its because this thread is mostly of people who have actually been to these countries instead of just reading how horrible it supposedly is.

So you are telling me Qatar isn't treating it's guest workers like 3rd class citizens? All these investigative reports are just making things up?

Also I'm quite sure Qatar Airlines has destinations other than Qatar.

 

[Messofanego]

Why isn't the US #1?

lmao

 

[seanoff]

This is a really good question and one that is rarely asked, and people dismissively say "because they want to screw us!" But then, why can't international airlines come in and compete with American airline companies, which would then cause the US Airlines, JetBlues, and others, to start competing...? Well, because they're not allowed to be law.

Non-American airline companies cannot provide domestic flights in the US because of 'cabotage' restrictions, an ancient word, but the law of the land. It's a protectionist law but it also prevents a company like Emirates from coming in and flying vastly cheaper flights using vastly lesser paid employees, getting gas subsidies from the UAE, and paying no corporate taxes in the UAE. If Emirates came in and competed directly with Delta, Delta would be put out of business.

But beyond that, the flying experience is further made worse in the US By a few major factors:

• There is very little competition between country-wide air travel. You have 3 major country-wide airlines, and then mostly only regional airlines, but because of individual contracts at specific airports, one airline will "dominate" an airport and consider it their "hub."
• Non-US airlines have wages far below US airlines, which are protected by federal laws and importantly a very strong Airline employees union.
• While Singapore or Emirates can hire only beautiful, twenty-something women, and mandate that they wear a specific outfit, wear certain makeup, and act a certain way, American airline companies are forbidden from discrimination in hiring along any race, sex, age, or gender lines. Singapore Air only hires beautiful young women for customer-facing positions who are only temporary, contract employees and only the best of the best (or most beautiful) get their contracts renewed.
• None of the US passenger flight companies are state owned or state subsidized, which isn't the case for dozens of major airlines that they compete against.
• Airline jobs are high-paying in the US and are considered "career" jobs. THis is a good thing for airline employees, but it can have mixed results for passengers, who may feel like trips to the airport are more like trips to the DMV... Airlines in other countries that generally perform highly in these comparisons are aggressive with hiring and firing, employ many workers on contractual basis, and have wages well below your average American airline employee lifer... Who may be in the industry for decades, have seniority over routes, and may not be as motivated as a young person competing for a contract. This isn't the case for all European airline companies, though it specifically is the case for Cathay, Singapore, Emirates, and many other high performing airlines.
• Geography and population density play a significant role in European air travel, and airlines also have to compete with a functioning rail system between many large cities. This drives ticket prices down. Further, there isn't government & airline collusion in Europe to limit flight numbers like there is in the US. I don't know if you remember how air travel used to be, but in the 1990s, you'd regularly fly in empty 747s in long trips... This is virtually eliminated now, and if you have an empty seat next to you on a flight, it's considered a miracle. Europe hasn't adopted this model as quickly. This leads to more flights that need seats filled at lower costs in Europe.

So what is your excuses for 4, 5, 8, 9 10

Cathay is extremely career driven and nearly all of the crew there are extremely long serving and live in one of the most expensive places on Earth. Qantas, ANA, and Lufthansa face at least the same issues as any US airline. EVA isn't exactly the cheap seats either.

US airlines have been in a race to the bottom for years. The airlines and the airports are trash by international standards. Flying from almost anywhere to JFK, LAX etc is amazing. The difference in feel and facilities is eye opening. My 12 yo came back from the US and was like the US airports are shit dad.

 

[Messofanego]

[*]While Singapore or Emirates can hire only beautiful, twenty-something women, and mandate that they wear a specific outfit, wear certain makeup, and act a certain way, American airline companies are forbidden from discrimination in hiring along any race, sex, age, or gender lines. Singapore Air only hires beautiful young women for customer-facing positions who are only temporary, contract employees and only the best of the best (or most beautiful) get their contracts renewed.
[*]None of the US passenger flight companies are state owned or state subsidized, which isn't the case for dozens of major airlines that they compete against.
[*]Airline jobs are high-paying in the US and are considered "career" jobs. THis is a good thing for airline employees, but it can have mixed results for passengers, who may feel like trips to the airport are more like trips to the DMV... Airlines in other countries that generally perform highly in these comparisons are aggressive with hiring and firing, employ many workers on contractual basis, and have wages well below your average American airline employee lifer... Who may be in the industry for decades, have seniority over routes, and may not be as motivated as a young person competing for a contract. This isn't the case for all European airline companies, though it specifically is the case for Cathay, Singapore, Emirates, and many other high performing airlines.
[/list]

However, it could be argued some of the reasons why International airlines are so superior is sexist. Basically US airlines are heavily constrained by union rules and domestic employment laws. Flight attendants are on average older, have been with the company longer, and more senior FAs (and pilots) get their pick of routes and stuff while newer employees get stuck with the worse routes. Its almost impossible to fire a FA without a long, long process.

By contrast, some of the foreign airlines seem crazy when it comes to hiring guidelines. They have age and weight restrictions, beauty restrictions, and its assumed that female flight attendants will get married and leave by their mid 30s. You will rarely see FAs older than 35 on most of the top international airlines. There are all kinds of crazy rules about fraternization and the airline can fire you at the drop of a hat.

So... yeah, just like we don't really like to think too much about how our iPhones and tablets are made by possibly wage slaves in Asia, I think people don't like to think too much about how cruise ships and airlines are run off practices that many Western liberals would find abhorrent, but conveniently ignored by almost everyone.

Did not know about those sexist practices, thanks for the insight. Is there an article investigating that? Any push back to remove that discrimination?