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Etrian Odyssey IV: Legends of the Titan |OT|: Fight & Heal Brings 3D To Europe!

Wat.
It's not that bad compared to some games, but it's an acquired taste.

The portraits in EO4 are awful compared to the previous games. I think my biggest disappointment with this game (after the fact that the 3D mode isn't actually in 3D) is both the paucity of character portraits (I hoped by now they'd move up to, like, six portraits with three color swaps each or something) and the poor quality of the ones they did provide.
 
The portraits in EO4 are awful compared to the previous games. I think my biggest disappointment with this game (after the fact that the 3D mode isn't actually in 3D) is both the paucity of character portraits (I hoped by now they'd move up to, like, six portraits with three color swaps each or something) and the poor quality of the ones they did provide.

that's like your opinion bro, I love every portrait of my team. I didn't like EO1-2 portraits as much as this one, even if I'll admit that 3 had godlike designs.
 

Soulhouf

Member
The portraits in EO4 are awful compared to the previous games. I think my biggest disappointment with this game (after the fact that the 3D mode isn't actually in 3D) is both the paucity of character portraits (I hoped by now they'd move up to, like, six portraits with three color swaps each or something) and the poor quality of the ones they did provide.

You don't like the Imperial portraits selection either?
It's the only one, but I find that class has an all remarkable portraits.
 

tuffy

Member
that's like your opinion bro, I love every portrait of my team. I didn't like EO1-2 portraits as much as this one, even if I'll admit that 3 had godlike designs.
Seems like a bit of wash to me. I'd rate the Fortress and Sniper portraits above 3's Hoplite and Arbalist portraits, for instance. Even the Bushi isn't as absurd as 2's Beast class. But since there's fewer classes overall this time around, having more face variants (like 3's Shogun) would've been a welcome change.
 
that's like your opinion bro

It's a correct opinion.

You don't like the Imperial portraits selection either?

The imperial portraits are definitely the best out of the set, maybe just because it's one of the few classes where the female avatars are fully dressed, competent-looking, and not standing in an idiotic position.

I ultimately managed to find portraits I could live with for my whole team, but when you compare the options here to the classic designs in some of the earlier titles they really don't hold up. The biggest issue I have here (beyond the generally awful choices for the female avatars) is the costume design -- they moved away from the relatively colorful and iconic designs of the previous games towards overly complex designs with no clear color schemes.
 

scy

Member
The imperial portraits are definitely the best out of the set, maybe just because it's one of the few classes where the female avatars are fully dressed, competent-looking, and not standing in an idiotic position.

Honestly, I'd say the same for most the male portraits. Most of them aren't interesting at all to me.

I do think it's about time we got more options. The palette swaps were a nice touch, sure, but how about four portraits per gender? Multiple poses?
 
Seems like a bit of wash to me. I'd rate the Fortress and Sniper portraits above 3's Hoplite and Arbalist portraits, for instance.

But 3 has the Farmer, and Farmer > *

Honestly, I'd say the same for most the male portraits.

The male ones are also definitely boring, and still have a facial expression problem (nobody has great enthusiastic or contemplative expressions like some of the best portraits from the first game) but at least none of them are the tounge-out Nightseeker.
 
It's a correct opinion.
The imperial portraits are definitely the best out of the set, maybe just because it's one of the few classes where the female avatars are fully dressed, competent-looking, and not standing in an idiotic position.

yeah yeah opinions w/e, but most of the female chars are fully dressed:


the Sniper is fully dressed(considering archers don't use heavy armor), the fortress is fully dressed, the runemaster is fully dressed, the Imperial is fully dressed. Landsknecht is fine but has a skirt and you might not like that. Dancer is obviously not fully dressed because IT'S A FUCKING DANCER, and last but not least the Arcanist is... well it's not even human

I don't get the idiotic position thing you're saying tbh

I'll admit that some of the male ones suck, the only "manly" Landsknecht looks horrible, for example. But damn the Medic, Sniper, Runemaster, and Imperial males are cool
and the loli dancer is delicious
 

Soulhouf

Member
I just went to see what that Red Dragon is like.
Holy shit my team was annihilated in like 3 seconds lol
That boss didn't loose his might after so many games and that's good \o/
I think it's better to progress into the Hall of Darkness to level up my team and get better gear before even considering fighting the dragons.
 
But 3 has the Farmer, and Farmer > *



The male ones are also definitely boring, and still have a facial expression problem (nobody has great enthusiastic or contemplative expressions like some of the best portraits from the first game) but at least none of them are the tounge-out Nightseeker.

I will defend that one. She looks NUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUTS. Perfect for a rogue-alike class.

Landsniktbubs: Skirts? The "class" over the games has had a thing for that, even the Gladiator dudes in 3.

Nightseekers: One loli. Love the way the cloaks are drawn on the dudes.

Fortress: One moe. Tanks always look decked out.

Sniper: No woman. Gear's fine. Goofy poses.

Medic: No women again. No doctor cloak on the girls. Why?

Runemaster: Pattern forming. I like the northern European flair of the design alot, though.

Dancer: So yeah.

Arcanist: Don't sneeze, I didn't bring Nectars or a Medic. All four are elven though, so it fits.

Bushi: Furry bait.

Imperial: Love the detail on the armor and the driveblades.
 

tuffy

Member
I think it's better to progress into the Hall of Darkness to level up my team and get better gear before even considering fighting the dragons.
The Hall of Darkness is when the game shifts from being something anybody can beat with a sane party to one where you're going to need some min/maxing to succeed. My party didn't have much trouble beating the story boss on my first attempt. But when that same party was getting wiped regularly by random 6th maze encounters, I knew I needed to do some serious reshuffling in order to succeed against the dragons and that...thing at the end of the postgame.
 
I don't get the idiotic position thing you're saying tbh

The female medics are posed with their arms out in a bizarre way (more like cheerleaders than anything else) and making weird faces. The Nightstalkers are standing in a way that makes no sense from an activity perspective, but just serves to thrust their crotches towards the camera (plus the one is doing that awful tongue thing.) The Sniper doesn't look like she's standing or getting ready to attack, she looks like she's skipping. And so on.

The best portraits from earlier in the series have the characters actually doing things that make sense as action shots, like the gunner's sweet action pose that you can spot in an avatar in this very thread, or the Protector from EO2.
 

vall03

Member
Its been a while since I played the game. Been stuck in the 2nd Area in my All-Fortress playthrough because I keep forgetting to Rest until evening for this one quest. Oh well, it seems the people who are still playing have dwindled a bit. Soul Hackers is coming next week too.
 

Roubjon

Member
I'm still chugging away at it and loving it. I'm currently at the third dungeon, so I'm assuming I've still got ways to go.

I did pre-order Soul Hackers though, but I'm definitely not going to start it until I finish this.
 

Soulhouf

Member
The Hall of Darkness is when the game shifts from being something anybody can beat with a sane party to one where you're going to need some min/maxing to succeed. My party didn't have much trouble beating the story boss on my first attempt. But when that same party was getting wiped regularly by random 6th maze encounters, I knew I needed to do some serious reshuffling in order to succeed against the dragons and that...thing at the end of the postgame.

I just reached B2F of Hall of Darkness and I didn't have much trouble so far. The only time I found myself in a dangerous position was when I got ambushed by that group of petrifying enemies but once again my dancer saved my ass.
Having a strong defensive team helped a lot (I/B, F/D, D/B, A/M and R/B).
I also found many useful items in that dungeon. Once all my team pass lv60, I will try the dragon again.

With that said, I don't see how to protect myself against the dragon's AOE attack. In EO1 the protector had a skill that completely cancels the attack but I don't see any equivalent in IV. Will increasing elemental defense be enough? I doubt it since the damage is so hi (~1800 per character).
We shall see...
 

Anteo

Member
I just reached B2F of Hall of Darkness and I didn't have much trouble so far. The only time I found myself in a dangerous position was when I got ambushed by that group of petrifying enemies but once again my dancer saved my ass.
Having a strong defensive team helped a lot (I/B, F/D, D/B, A/M and R/B).
I also found many useful items in that dungeon. Once all my team pass lv60, I will try the dragon again.

With that said, I don't see how to protect myself against the dragon's AOE attack. In EO1 the protector had a skill that completely cancels the attack but I don't see any equivalent in IV. Will increasing elemental defense be enough? I doubt it since the damage is so hi (~1800 per character).
We shall see...

The dragon should not be doing a damage that high o_O
Anyways buy some antielemental charms or whatever is called, those work great.
(Unless you mean the last dragon, in which case yeah, that's a 1 hit KO no matter what)
 
I will defend that one. She looks NUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUTS. Perfect for a rogue-alike class.
Seconding. It's one of my favorite portraits in the game because of how hilariously out of place it is. Exploring the unknown, spearheading a new era, and saving the world are just incidental to her getting to kill stuff. I bet she eats the corpses while the rest of the party catches their breath.

Also, I seem to be the only person who doesn't much like the Imperial portraits. Man or woman, the only one I'm fond of is the special character's. :(
 

Ferrio

Banned
Fought my first dragon, fire one.

Went through all my TP items, and was just down to auto attacking. Luckily a poison field triggered, allowed my assassin to do alot more damage at the end.

Starting to look like I'll have to redo my classes. My dancer/bushi may need to be a dancer/assassin. Assassin just pulls too much damage... and I need to captalize on those status effects as much as I can when they trigger. The bushi is nice... she doesn't have to worry about healing.. and roar is helpful... but other than that... meh.
 

Soulhouf

Member
The dragon should not be doing a damage that high o_O
Anyways buy some antielemental charms or whatever is called, those work great.
(Unless you mean the last dragon, in which case yeah, that's a 1 hit KO no matter what)

No, I'm talking about the Red Dragon. But I guess my level was too low (around 45).
Which one of the 3 is the easiest? I remember the Red Dragon being the hardest in EO1. Is that still the case here?

Anyway, I explored about half of B2F of Hall of Darkness and I can now say that I love that dungeon. It's by far my favorite because it reminds me of EO1. Too bad that the status effects aren't dangerous in this game because that could make it much more challenging.
Also I love the atmosphere in that dungeon and the music is great. The enemies are a big bummer though, another bunch of clones :(

Edit: speaking of decreased difficulty. I just noticed that aside from scripted ones, there aren't random battles with ambush. Why ATLUS, why?
 

Ferrio

Banned
No, I'm talking about the Red Dragon. But I guess my level was too low (around 45).
Which one of the 3 is the easiest? I remember the Red Dragon being the hardest in EO1. Is that still the case here?

Anyway, I explored about half of B2F of Hall of Darkness and I can now say that I love that dungeon. It's by far my favorite because it reminds me of EO1. Too bad that the status effects aren't dangerous in this game because that could make it much more challenging.
Also I love the atmosphere in that dungeon and the music is great. The enemies are a big bummer though, another bunch of clones :(

Edit: speaking of decreased difficulty. I just noticed that aside from scripted ones, there aren't random battles with ambush. Why ATLUS, why?

You're lvl 45? Wow, I beat the game at 65, I didn't even really grind either.
 
Just beat the game.

What exactly happens when I choose "save cleared game"? There are a few things I still want to do(like beat
Leviathan
quest), but will choosing yes start me completely over or what?
 

spiritfox

Member
Just beat the game.

What exactly happens when I choose "save cleared game"? There are a few things I still want to do(like beat
Leviathan
quest), but will choosing yes start me completely over or what?

Nope. You can continue from that save and do whatever you missed. Only by starting a new game+ then you'll (obviously) start over.

There's no way to completely negate the elemental attacks from the Dragons, but you can reduce it significantly. R's 1st level Runes, F's Element Guard, the rare food that's next to the Dragons, and of course element resist charms all will reduce the damage from the elemental attacks. But you'll also need to do something about their non-elemental attacks, which should be the same as EO3 (bash charms and whatnot).

Volt Emperor also has that annoying skill where if you buff too much, he can instant-kill you. Yeah.
 

Soulhouf

Member
The Great Dragon is down, hiii-ha!
holy shit, you were right guys, that item found not far from the dragon and which reduces fire damage and confusion worked wonders. It almost felt like a cheat to me given how efficient it was oO but since there aren't any skill that negates fire damage, I can't see other way to survive that fight.
Again, my dancer saved my ass with her amazing stun skill. She was able to stun the dragon 3 turns in a row while the 2 imperials were in berserk mode (Ignition), it was epic!
The only thing I regret is, I forgot to use that item that guarantees all the drops since the dragon seems to have a rare one. I hope I can fight him again later.
My team was around level 60 (Hall of Darkness gave me a lot of xp to level up quickly) and I gained 2-3 levels after the fight against the dragon.
 

Soulhouf

Member
Dancers are pretty awesome, yeah.

5 Dancers Mist Dancing everything go!

Yeah, I'm witnessing miracle after miracle during each dangerous battle thanks to my Dancer who was the one who saved me every time: great speed, great evade rate, that OP skill which enables a character to act first, ability to heal everything during 6 turns, multi hit and the godly Mist Dancing. It's clearly the super star class of this game and I'm glad I chose her in my team.
The other miracle is the burst skill with the guaranteed stun effect. I always keep it as an emergency button and when everything goes wrong, I press that button.
 

spiritfox

Member
Yeah, I'm witnessing miracle after miracle during each dangerous battle thanks to my Dancer who was the one who saved me every time: great speed, great evade rate, that OP skill which enables a character to act first, ability to heal everything during 6 turns, multi hit and the godly Mist Dancing. It's clearly the super star class of this game and I'm glad I chose her in my team.
The other miracle is the burst skill with the guaranteed stun effect. I always keep it as an emergency button and when everything goes wrong, I press that button.

Yeah I switched back to using a Dancer in the post-game because she's just too useful. She's like a Princess that can also kill stuff. A character that can both support with dances and swords dance the shit out of everything in existence? Yes please.
 

Soulhouf

Member
Yeah I switched back to using a Dancer in the post-game because she's just too useful. She's like a Princess that can also kill stuff. A character that can both support with dances and swords dance the shit out of everything in existence? Yes please.

My dancer is in my team from the beginning and she served me very well.
It's too bad the dancer class has the worst portraits, which makes me sad. I so wish I was able to recruit that guest dancer character (I forgot her name).
 

spiritfox

Member
My dancer is in my team from the beginning.
It's too bad the dancer class has the worst portraits, which makes me sad. I so wish I was able to recruit that guest dancer character (I forgot her name).

Wiglaf? Yeah I like her design. It's less... exposed.
 
Two noobish questions.

1. What's the point of retiring a character?
2. Should I simply sell all the materials I collect after every dungeon run? Do I need to keep any in my inventory to buy or forge better equipment or do I sell everything to the blacksmith for her to use in her shop?
 

tuffy

Member
Two noobish questions.

1. What's the point of retiring a character?
Retiring a character gives you an enhanced recruit with additional skill points, a boost to all attributes and half the level of the original (to a maximum of 30). The amount of improvement depends on the level of the retiree.
2. Should I simply sell all the materials I collect after every dungeon run? Do I need to keep any in my inventory to buy or forge better equipment or do I sell everything to the blacksmith for her to use in her shop?
The only time you won't sell harvested materials is when they're needed for an accepted quest - which the game will warn you about when you enter the shop. Otherwise, sell everything. If parts are needed to forge a weapon slot, you'll still need to sell them in order to use them for forging. There's never a reason to hoard those drops.
 

Soulhouf

Member
Wiglaf? Yeah I like her design. It's less... exposed.

Yes, Wiglaf <3

It's not really a problem of exposure but more the fact that having a 10 year old kid wearing a skimpy bikini or dudes as dancers (seriously, who wants a guy as dancer?) isn't my cup of tea. Not to mention that I don't like the faces either.
I had to turn toward the remaining girl, not because she is great but because I didn't have other choices...
 

scy

Member
There's no way to completely negate the elemental attacks from the Dragons, but you can reduce it significantly.

Elemental Rune + Elemental Charms + Food will be 100% Resistance; if those Elemental Runes are from a Runemaster main, you actually don't even need the food as those two combined are 100% Resistance. Even from a sub, Rune + Charms is -90% so the food is debatable, I suppose.

You will still take 1 Damage, however, since the Random Variance is an amount added after all the damage multipliers are done but ... it's an irrelevant amount.
 
Retiring a character gives you an enhanced recruit with additional skill points, a boost to all attributes and half the level of the original (to a maximum of 30). The amount of improvement depends on the level of the retiree.

The only time you won't sell harvested materials is when they're needed for an accepted quest - which the game will warn you about when you enter the shop. Otherwise, sell everything. If parts are needed to forge a weapon slot, you'll still need to sell them in order to use them for forging. There's never a reason to hoard those drops.

Perfect, thanks.
 

Soulhouf

Member
Elemental Rune + Elemental Charms + Food will be 100% Resistance; if those Elemental Runes are from a Runemaster main, you actually don't even need the food as those two combined are 100% Resistance. Even from a sub, Rune + Charms is -90% so the food is debatable, I suppose.

You will still take 1 Damage, however, since the Random Variance is an amount added after all the damage multipliers are done but ... it's an irrelevant amount.

What are the Elemental Charms? I never seen them and the shop doesn't have any either.
I didn't use Elemental Rune because 1- they are only lv2 and 2- I don't like the idea of having them on my RuneMaster, it's a fuckin stupid idea.
 

spiritfox

Member
Elemental Rune + Elemental Charms + Food will be 100% Resistance; if those Elemental Runes are from a Runemaster main, you actually don't even need the food as those two combined are 100% Resistance. Even from a sub, Rune + Charms is -90% so the food is debatable, I suppose.

You will still take 1 Damage, however, since the Random Variance is an amount added after all the damage multipliers are done but ... it's an irrelevant amount.

Oh cool I didn't know that, can't be bothered to crunch numbers >.< But that's more troublesome when you could just completely negate the damage with 1 skill in the previous games. But I guess this is better than making a class almost necessary for Dragon hunting.
 

scy

Member
What are the Elemental Charms? I never seen them and the shop doesn't have any either.

The Accessories that give 5 Fire/Ice/Volt Resist slots. Off-hand, I couldn't tell you what the drops are but the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Stratum each unlock one of them (Ice, Fire, Volt).

I didn't use Elemental Rune because 1- they are only lv2 and 2- I don't like the idea of having them on my RuneMaster, it's a fuckin stupid idea.

Level 1 Elemental Rune is enough with the Charms and Food for 100% Reduction (-25%, -50%, -30%). Also, the Elemental Runes are one of the best buff/debuffs and them being on the Runemaster/caster is probably one of the best changes in the game, to be honest.

They're also a fairly sizable debuff. For a target that is neutral to an element, they're better than Runic Gleam for total damage dealt, for instance.

Oh cool I didn't know that, can't be bothered to crunch numbers >.< But that's more troublesome when you could just completely negate the damage with 1 skill in the previous games. But I guess this is better than making a class almost necessary for Dragon hunting.

You can negate 80% with just the maxed skill and food, the Charms just loosen the skill level restriction really. The Dragons also have a looser script this time when it comes to their breaths so this frees up their attack rotation a bit. Antis wouldn't really work this game since you'd have to be constantly using them and that's honestly no fun.

Alternatively, you can use a Mist (-50%) but that's a hassle at times too.
 

Soulhouf

Member
The Accessories that give 5 Fire/Ice/Volt Resist slots. Off-hand, I couldn't tell you what the drops are but the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Stratum each unlock one of them (Ice, Fire, Volt).



Level 1 Elemental Rune is enough with the Charms and Food for 100% Reduction (-25%, -50%, -30%). Also, the Elemental Runes are one of the best buff/debuffs and them being on the Runemaster/caster is probably one of the best changes in the game, to be honest.

They're also a fairly sizable debuff. For a target that is neutral to an element, they're better than Runic Gleam for total damage dealt, for instance.

Okay, so being able to beat the dragon with my lv60 team and without using charms or rune is proof enough how easy this game is.

And I disagree completely with you sir. Putting that powerful defense skill on an aggressive unit is dumb and by far the worst idea. Meanwhile my Fortress is doing nothing while it's his job to provide protection to the team. He is there for that job and nothing else.

PS: how do you know how much protection each skill provides? Did you contribute on the game's development?
 

spiritfox

Member
It's not just protection, it boosts damage too. A maxed rune with guidance boosts damage more than a neutral gleam. And it lasts longer too, and boost any other elemental damage like the Imperial's drives.
 

scy

Member
Okay, so being able to beat the dragon with my lv60 team and without using charms or rune is proof enough how easy this game is.

Not necessarily. Runes + Charms is just the simplest solution since it lets you completely nullify the breaths (while giving up a defensive slot entirely).

Every Dragon in every single game was pretty much the same, deal with their breath, win the fight. EO3 gave us the easiest with predictable Breaths and limited damage types so you could just take 1 damage from everything they did!

And I disagree completely with you sir. Putting that powerful defense skill on an aggressive unit is dumb and by far the worst idea. Meanwhile my Fortress is doing nothing while it's his job to provide protection to the team. He is there for that job and nothing else.

One of the weaknesses of the Alchemist from EO1-2 is that it had nothing to provide utility to the team. It also forced the situation with the Protector being a necessary evil for Elemental damage. The Troubadour had Ifrit/Ymir/Taranis but they weren't good enough (-30% at best, no real options to get that remaining 70%). EO3 gave us the Prophecy spells but they were really deep into the trees so it was just simpler to get the Antis.

Ultimately, it's just nice to have something BESIDES the defensive class with an option. I do agree the Fortress not having Antis seems weird but it seems the design goal this time was more focusing on their defensive stats and generalized damage prevention (/biased more on the Physical side) rather than having the specialized options. It's also worth noting that Runemaster gives Elemental Damage reduction anyway via their Class Passive so they're kind of meant to have the Elemental Damage reduction kit.

Edit: But, yeah, preference I suppose. It's just one of those things that people complained about from EO1-2 (and, to a lesser extent, 3 still) was the limited options for certain things. EO4 solves a lot of that.

It's also worth noting that I want to check how the Fortress Guards work: Modify Resistances as a reduction (e.g., Strike Guard is -X% Physical) or a multiplier (e.g., Strike Guard is if Physical, take Y% Damage). If it's the former then Elemental Guard + Charms + Food would also be 100% Reduction.

And, again, the Rune debuff is fairly significant. While it's less bonus damage itself than Runic Gleam, it counts towards triggering weaknesses on a target. So if the enemy isn't weak to an Element, using an Elemental Rune will give them a weakness. This also means boosting the damage of any other source of Elemental Damage (Link Lands, Imperials).

Also, you could always do Fortress / Runemaster for the Elemental Runes. I subbed for them rather than using them on a main Runemaster. Considering the damage values you get from it, that seems like it was the intent: Charms + Food + Rank 1 Rune to prevent damage via a sub while main Runemaster lets you do Charm + Rank 6 Rune to accomplish the same.

PS: how do you know how much protection each skill provides? Did you contribute on the game's development?

Just a lot of testing. I have no involvement with Atlus. That I'm aware of, anyway.
 

Soulhouf

Member
Not necessarily. Runes + Charms is just the simplest solution since it lets you completely nullify the breaths (while giving up a defensive slot entirely).

Every Dragon in every single game was pretty much the same, deal with their breath, win the fight. EO3 gave us the easiest with predictable Breaths and limited damage types so you could just take 1 damage from everything they did!

Well, it's pretty much the same but it was much more constraining in the 1st games. If you forget to do that precise protection during the turn, you're dead.
There are some other subtle means but it wasn't as easy as in this game.

One of the weaknesses of the Alchemist from EO1-2 is that it had nothing to provide utility to the team. It also forced the situation with the Protector being a necessary evil for Elemental damage. The Troubadour had Ifrit/Ymir/Taranis but they weren't good enough (-30% at best, no real options to get that remaining 70%). EO3 gave us the Prophecy spells but they were really deep into the trees so it was just simpler to get the Antis.

Ultimately, it's just nice to have something BESIDES the defensive class with an option. I do agree the Fortress not having Antis seems weird but it seems the design goal this time was more focusing on their defensive stats and generalized damage prevention (/biased more on the Physical side) rather than having the specialized options. It's also worth noting that Runemaster gives Elemental Damage reduction anyway via their Class Passive so they're kind of meant to have the Elemental Damage reduction kit.

Edit: But, yeah, preference I suppose. It's just one of those things that people complained about from EO1-2 (and, to a lesser extent, 3 still) was the limited options for certain things. EO4 solves a lot of that.

It's also worth noting that I want to check how the Fortress Guards work: Modify Resistances as a reduction (e.g., Strike Guard is -X% Physical) or a multiplier (e.g., Strike Guard is if Physical, take Y% Damage). If it's the former then Elemental Guard + Charms + Food would also be 100% Reduction.

And, again, the Rune debuff is fairly significant. While it's less bonus damage itself than Runic Gleam, it counts towards triggering weaknesses on a target. So if the enemy isn't weak to an Element, using an Elemental Rune will give them a weakness. This also means boosting the damage of any other source of Elemental Damage (Link Lands, Imperials).

Also, you could always do Fortress / Runemaster for the Elemental Runes. I subbed for them rather than using them on a main Runemaster. Considering the damage values you get from it, that seems like it was the intent: Charms + Food + Rank 1 Rune to prevent damage via a sub while main Runemaster lets you do Charm + Rank 6 Rune to accomplish the same.

The problem of Alchemist in the 1st game is that his efficiency drops pretty heavily toward the end of the game. At the beginning you rule everything with poison but the more you progress into the game the less Alchemist is efficient damage-wise.
In EOIV, RuneMaster is already a heavy damage dealer and didn't need to be an efficient protector as well.
It's fair enough you can use that as a subclass for a Fortress but still, it doesn't make much sens.
I also have a problem with the amount of options that gives you. You acquire too many skill points for the available skills, which completely kills the possibility to make tough decisions. You can make an all element competent RuneMaster as damage dealer AND protector, covering pretty much all the possibilities that class offers.
At least if you couldn't do that, it would be good...

Regarding the Troubadour, you could use its skill in a subtle way if combined with the burst equivalent (forgot its name) you can pretty well reduce a devastating attack (it saved me many times against Primevil).

My big issue in IV is how easy they made things. Status effects are no longer a big deal. You can have everything skill-wise to cover pretty much everything without worrying about the negatives. You only loose 2 levels when you rest and on top of that the enemies are rarely a big threat. No backtracking, no ambushes either and the game is too generous regarding money.
I would understand if they made it that way only for casual mode, but here we are talking about the normal mode and that one should remain untouched and gives the same challenge as in the olden days.

With that said, thanks for the discussion. I really enjoyed debating this, even if I know it's the trend, we can't do much against it, but something inside me refuses that :)
 

scy

Member
Well, it's pretty much the same but it was much more constraining in the 1st games. If you forget to do that precise protection during the turn, you're dead.

There are some other subtle means but it wasn't as easy as in this game.

I prefer their breaths to be random but to not have a single-turn defensive option. Having to use Antis every turn isn't that fun. The set-and-forget buff (that can, and does, get dispelled as part of their rotation) just ultimately frees things up. You can make the breath devastating AND random AND improve all their other options just by virtue of giving a better tool to deal with it. And it still seems fair this way!

The problem of Alchemist in the 1st game is that his efficiency drops pretty heavily toward the end of the game. At the beginning you rule everything with poison but the more you progress into the game the less Alchemist is efficient damage-wise.

It's the same problem for EO2, really. EO3/EO4 solved this by having their "Spell Power" scale with something instead of being tied to the skill itself.

It's fair enough you can use that as a subclass for a Fortress but still, it doesn't make much sens.

I don't even use a Fortress; Arcanist / Runemaster to cover the Elemental Runes. If Antis were the goto route for it, I'd probably sub for it as well. That's basically how I see it. They took a route this time where you can use subclasses to deal with the situation and scaled the numbers such that the main class has an advantage still.

I guess I just like it from a "flavor" view: Of course the "Master of the Elements" Runemaster can deal with elemental damage. The Fortress is more of a bodyguard!

Regarding the Troubadour, you could use its skill in a subtle way if combined with the burst equivalent (forgot its name) you can pretty well reduce a devastating attack (it saved me many times against Primevil).

Boost for those took it to 90% Reduction, if I recall. Combined with how Armor worked (flat reduction after percentage reduction), it's essentially nullifying damage.

My big issue in IV is how easy they made things.

Honestly, I don't really agree. Well, sort of. If anything, EO4 has the most threats across the board for random encounters, FoEs, and boss design. There's exceptions here and there, sure, but a lot of the bosses in EO4 have more complexity to them than anything in previous games.

The "problem" is you're also given better tools. EO1 is a very straightforward game: Things deal damage so you need to deal with it. %Reduction, in conjunction with how Armor worked, basically trivializes everything. Your damage output is so-so at best so it's about the long grind for fights. The difficulty of the game stems from the fact that there's only a small amount of answers.

EO4 just gives you more options. You have better ways to deal with everything the game throws at you so the encounter design tries to get away with more since you can deal with it better. The game is more interactive, for lack of a better way to put it. You actually have to adapt to the fights rather than just knowing to deal with damage.

I do think that they could've done a little bit more with the difficulty but they're certainly trying more now than before. So, no, I think EO4 is a harder game in terms of enemy design but I do agree that it's ultimately easier because player power is higher too.

With that said, thanks for the discussion. I really enjoyed debating this, even if I know it's the trend, we can't do much against it, but something inside me refuses that :)

It's fun to discuss. I'm still waiting for my Hard Mode option so don't think that I'm "satisfied" with the game difficulty or anything ;__;
 

Anteo

Member
While I agree things could have been harder earlier in the game, I think the game was challenging, considering those nasty combos here and there like in the second land
Sleep to all your party! And now selfdestruct!
which some teams had better chance to deal with at first, but didn't require a specific setup to beat. Or some random battles with high damage output that almost wiped me the first time I encounter them.

I also like the new way to play the tank character (compared to 3). Is no longer about reducing the incoming damage to the party (though you can do it) is about taking damage in place of your allies (that was like one or two spells in EO3 besides taunt, and one of those only worked if the damage was really high), so it was a pretty effective tank. Redirecting most/all the damage to her and at the same time, make sure she can survive another round to keep the thing going was more fun that just casting AntiIce in the second boss battle of EO3.
 

Ferrio

Banned
Started maze 6, ran into the first foe I saw (figured I could take it). It's first attack petrified my whole party, game over. Well... that escalated quickly.

A sheep does what a dragon couldn't.
 

scy

Member
Or some random battles with high damage output that almost wiped me the first time I encounter them.

This is probably one of the biggest change in the series. EO1/EO2 had a lot of random encounters that just did damage. That was basically it. Eventually, you'd be low and forced to heal. Not much else, however.

EO3 and EO4 have accepted that not all encounters will potentially kill you. Some exist solely to wear you down. More enemies that take minimal physical damage. Varying targeting attacks (which is also why the random target function is Highest HP, to equalize the damage across everyone). Multi-target attacks. Status Effects to prolong a fight, not necessarily to cause damage (e.g., more Paralysis, Confusion instead of Poison). Curse and Plague (EO3) basically exist just to screw with players.

And then, of course, the random encounters actually designed to kill you.

Started maze 6, ran into the first foe I saw (figured I could take it). It's first attack petrified my whole party, game over. Well... that escalated quickly.

A sheep does what a dragon couldn't.

It's revenge for the 2nd Land EXP farming.

They knew.
 
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