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[DonasaurusRex]

yesh i thought they were up and running by now, there was a documentary on this things design win over 10 years ago. Maybe Boeing did have the better plane...

in hindsight the F-21 and ASF 14 among others seem like good ideas we whiffed on...

 

[Oppo]

Hey here's an idea

Replace the seat in the cockpit with a remote control rig

Lots of room in there

 

[dalin80]

Yeah, board canon to fire 3300 rounds per minute.

Can't fire a single shot untill 2019.


And from 2019 onwards, it can fire for a full 4 seconds before running out of ammo. Even Jesse Ventura lasted longer.

That isn't uncommon, fighters since WW2 have only carried enough ammo for a couple of bursts.

Hasn't the F22 expanded beyond the initial aims of being primarily air superiority into more of a multi-role strike fighter? I'm not saying the F35 isn't more advanced in some senses, but the F22 is combat proven, can do close air support, and like the OP mentions, it can send back high definition footage to ground troops.


.

Asides from some cover flights over Syria the F-22 has not been involved in combat and is far from proven, it has no innate ability for CAS over any other craft flying.

 

[Szu]

Wow, cant even do that basic thing.

This reminds me of the scene from Spy Kids 2 when Machete made a watch that can do everything except tell time.

 

[Woorloog]

Hey here's an idea

Replace the seat in the cockpit with a remote control rig

Lots of room in there

Remote control is too slow at the moment. And there is no sufficiently advanced AI to pilot it either. Pilotless multi-role combat aircraft are still years away.

Besides, if you want a drone fighter, it is better to develop one from ground up to take advantage of the lack of human pilot and necessary equipment (life support, controls, whatever).

 

[Oppo]

Remote control is too slow at the moment. And there is no sufficiently advanced AI to pilot it either. Pilotless multi-role combat aircraft are still years away.

Besides, if you want a drone fighter, it is better to develop one from ground up to take advantage of the lack of human pilot and necessary equipment (life support, controls, whatever).

Oh I figured. But if everything is over the horizon now then this thing was a dinosaur before it ever got off the ground.

 

[monreader]

400bn$ is absolutely crazy. As a non-US citizen, how is there not more uproar over this!! That money could have been well spent somewhere else. Then yet they are still pumping more money into a fighter jet, which will be technologically inferior to fighter jets around now! Absolutley crazy I think.

 

[Woorloog]

Oh I figured. But if everything is over the horizon now then this thing was a dinosaur before it ever got off the ground.

In theory everything's over the horizon. In practice, unlikely as there are too many uncontrollable factors.

400bn$ is absolutely crazy. As a non-US citizen, how is there not more uproar over this!! That money could have been well spent somewhere else. Then yet they are still pumping more money into a fighter jet, which will be technologically inferior to fighter jets around now! Absolutley crazy I think.

Isn't it more advanced but comparatively not quite as good as it should be?

 

[Goro Majima]

Regardless of cost, I doubt the actual engineers, programmers, designers, and average workers at Lockheed are happy about this. This is probably some of those people's life's work and it's shit.

 

[Dilly]

Could've put a colony on Mars with that money.

Instead spend it on machines that kill, and even can't get that right.

 

[Kysen]

yesh i thought they were up and running by now, there was a documentary on this things design win over 10 years ago. Maybe Boeing did have the better plane...

in hindsight the F-21 and ASF 14 among others seem like good ideas we whiffed on...

Yea I watched that recently, I still think Boeings design was a joke though. I feel sorry for the nations lining up to buy this expensive lemon.

 

[dalin80]

That money could have been well spent somewhere else. Then yet they are still pumping more money into a fighter jet, which will be technologically inferior to fighter jets around now! .

Which jets are technologically more advanced and in what ways?

 

[Frosty Droid]

Canada should abandon the F-35 and revive the Arrow. Purchasing a single engine fighter for arctic patrol is madness.

 

[jett]

Yes.

Per unit it is about 2.5x more expensive.

http://www.wired.com/2011/12/f-22-r...ex+%28Wired%3A+Index+3+%28Top+Stories+2%29%29

By contrast, the F-35’s unit cost should stabilize at around $157 million, owing to a massive 2,443-plane production run.

This can't be still true, can be?

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

Why is it not possible to upgrade some of those outdated equipments, but those other older jets can? That's terrible engineering. What a waste of money.

We could do that. A stealth variant of the F-15 is available. The F-15SE.

But that doesn't provide big enough contracts to plane manufacturers which means Congressmen won't get big enough kickbacks.

 

[kmfdmpig]

This can't be still true, can be?

The fewer planes you buy the higher the per unit cost is as all of the R+D is divided out among the airframes.

The mistake that is often made is that politicians see the cost of R+D as being too high so they cancel programs with just a few models and then:
A) They are stuck having to replace sooner than they otherwise would (as in the case of the bombers due to the B2 cancellation after just 21 or 22 planes)
and
B) The costs look worse than they otherwise would

 

[Randam]

The Cobra maneuver is impressive
http://youtu.be/b-VNSJMiNt0

always hated it, when they did that in Ace Combat.

 

[dalin80]

We could do that. A stealth variant of the F-15 is available. The F-15SE.

But that doesn't provide big enough contracts to plane manufacturers which means Congressmen won't get big enough kickbacks.

While a 'stealth' variant it is far from being a 'stealth' craft. While it has a reduced RCS profile over the standard F-15 it's unlikely to match any new aircraft.

The standard eagle has a frontal rcs of 5.0m^2 and the F-35 has a frontal rcs of .0015m^2

For comparison sake the F-117 is 0.025m^2

 

[Nivash]

The F-35 is excessively expensive, no doubt about that. That's what happens when the military experience for the last 25 years could pretty much discount the threat of enemy fighters - there's no pressure to expedite things and streamline development.

Apart from that it's perfectly fine. Keep in mind that 5th gen is pretty much banking on stealth becoming almost mandatory, and that's where the F-35 is second to none, or at least none other than the F-22. Sure, there's been a lot of talk about the PAK-FA and the J-20, but keep in mind that Russia and China have no experience working with stealth before at all and are rushing their aircraft into production. Don't count on them getting things right straight away. I highly doubt even they count on that.

 

[xbhaskarx]

That isn't uncommon, fighters since WW2 have only carried enough ammo for a couple of bursts.

Is that really the case? If so movies have lied to us.

 

[Dr.Jerkberg]

Any else think this sounds like a familiar story line?

 

[Funky Papa]

Is that really the case? If so movies have lied to us.

Most modern jets carry a very limited amount of rounds in relation to their cycling. They are meant to fire extremely short bursts with high precision, usually against land targets. The Eurofighter carries less than 200 rounds IIRC.

 

[xbhaskarx]

The standard eagle has a frontal rcs of 5.0m^2 and the F-35 has a frontal rcs of .0015m^2

For comparison sake the F-117 is 0.025m^2

I remember reading that bats would fly into the F-117s inside hangars and die, at least according to the book Skunkworks...

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Nah, nothing beats a big gun for close air support. Just look at the A-10, the air force is constantly trying to mothball the thing but is forced to keep bringing it back every time America gets tangentially involved in ground combat.

The gun platform on a fighter like the F16/F15 and the A-10 are worlds apart. The F16 itself only has 500 odd rounds. It's a fast jet, it doesn't have the loiter time of the A-10, its pilot isn't surrounded by a titanium bathtub.

And the A-10 itself Is a Cold War relic that got a fresh couple of glorious years in the sun by strafing Abdul in the desert. And one could argue that the kind of high intensity ground war that requires such intimate CAS like Iraq and Afghanistan. Is precisely the kind of war that America (a sea power) should never, ever find itself fighting again. Because another decade like the last will drain the nations coffers quicker than a Bernie Ecclestone divorce.

 

[dalin80]

Is that really the case? If so movies have lied to us.

Yep.

The eurofighter for instance carries 150 rounds used from a 1700 rpm cannon, The f-18 can munch through it's 550 rounds quite quickly at 6000 rpm. The ever photogenic SU-27 carries 150, same as the 30 and 35 models.

 

[gaugebozo]

I remember reading that bats would fly into the F-117s inside hangars and die, at least according to the book Skunkworks...

Mmm... Bats have radar that works off of sound, not light waves. Maybe the bats were Russian?

 

[Particle Physicist]

Pretty sure the F35 is better than the F22 for most things (though not a big leap), not to mention having more advanced avionics and stuff F22 doesn't have. On some things, the F22 likely wins... but then it is more of a dedicated air superiority fighter, not really a multi-role strike fighter.

If this is all it carries:

WTF?!

2x AMRAAM
2x Guided bomb
(in 2019) 180 rounds of 25mm ammo, fired at 3,300RPM

Jesus Christ. How is this supposed to replace a bunch of the jets we fly now?

And it has very poor video plus no live streaming, I don't think it matter is the thing can fly faster and maneuver better. Sounds like a huge mess

 

[skybald]

That price tag is disgusting. And to think this thing was in development when the 'Budget Crises' happened

 

[Nikodemos]

Yep.

The eurofighter for instance carries 150 rounds used from a 1700 rpm cannon, The f-18 can munch through it's 550 rounds quite quickly at 6000 rpm. The ever photogenic SU-27 carries 150, same as the 30 and 35 models.

But many guns have bigger calibers, thus don't need as many shots to mess up the opposition. The US is the only one which still uses 20mm. The rest use 27 or 30mm rounds. The F-35 is the first US combat plane to feature a higher caliber (25mm).

 

[Woorloog]

If this is all it carries:



And it has very poor video plus no live streaming, I don't think it matter is the thing can fly faster and maneuver better. Sounds like a huge mess

Pretty sure it carries more weapons than that, the Wiki article mentions various loadouts, pretty sure it included at least 6 missiles for one loadout. Naturally the exact amount depends on the type of weapons used (and arguably successful delivery of the payload is more important the amount itself).

 

[j_k_redtail]

Just a day after this story...

New U.S. Stealth Jet Can’t Fire Its Gun Until 2019

And a few weeks after this one:

Fuel Trucks for the F-35 Painted White to keep the Jet Fuel Cool (and prevent engine shutdowns)

The problem is not related to the jet itself, but to the fuel trucks thermal management: the Lightning II has a fuel temperature threshold and may not function properly if the fuel is delivered to the aircraft at high temperature. Should the temperature of the fuel get too high, the F-35 could face engine shutdowns.

Therefore trucks at Luke Air Force Base, in Arizona, where temperature can reach beyond 110° F (43° C) in summer months, were given a new look, by applying a two layer coating, dubbed “solar polyurethane enamel”, that will help prevent fuel stored in the tanks from over-heating.

I give you a hypothetical: (1) Several hundred gallons of jet fuel. (2) Desert combat environment. (3) Bright white fuel truck.

 

[dalin80]

If this is all it carries:



And it has very poor video plus no live streaming, I don't think it matter is the thing can fly faster and maneuver better. Sounds like a huge mess

That is all it can carry internally, it has wing pylons that can carry more.

http://awin.aviationweek.com/Portals/aweek/media/f35weaps/JSFweapons1.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6DyML-EPAKE/URluW0OucpI/AAAAAAAAB7o/SAo4-tY7GW4/s1600/F35+hardpoints.bmp

 

[Nikodemos]

Pretty sure it carries more weapons than that, the Wiki article mentions various loadouts, pretty sure it included at least 6 missiles for one loadout. Naturally the exact amount depends on the type of weapons used (and arguably successful delivery of the payload is more important the amount itself).

Its internal bay is very small. If you want to put more weapons on it, you have to use external pods which mess up the radar profile, negating the whole stealth aspect.

 

[Dryk]

The F-35 will still be an amazing plane for as long as:

a) It's enemies can't see it
b) It can see it's enemies

Personally I was never a fan of assuming that you'll have an uneven playing field for the lifetime of your equipment. Especially seeing how much the insistence on stealth is dragging down its performance and inhibiting its ability to carry a useful payload. But what do I know.

Oh I figured. But if everything is over the horizon now then this thing was a dinosaur before it ever got off the ground.

BVR combat has been the military's dream for decades now. It's still not widespread, the threat of shooting down civilian aircraft is way too toxic.

 

[Oppo]

Canada should abandon the F-35 and revive the Arrow. Purchasing a single engine fighter for arctic patrol is madness.

man, the Arrow. what a waste.

 

[Coins]

I kind of assumed that the money was being funneled into black projects.

 

[xbhaskarx]

Mmm... Bats have radar that works off of sound, not light waves. Maybe the bats were Russian?

I did a google search and came across this F-117 FAQ...

What about the story of dead bats in the F-117A hangers?

The following article was published in Aviation Week and Space Technology, Oct 17, 1991:

"A reader who works on the stealth fighter in Saudi Arabia says bats (the natural ones) occasionally work their way into F-117 hangars. One night, a hungry bat turned right into an F-117 rudder and fell stunned to the floor. He flew away groggily, leaving behind a heightened impression of the aircraft's stealth. "I don't know what the radar return is for the vertical tails of the F-117 but I always thought it had to be more than an insect's," the reader said. "I guess I was wrong." There may be some "science" in this - the ultrasound wavelengths used by bats are roughly the same as X-band radar."

In Ben Rich's book "Skunk Works" Col. Barry Horne is quoted as saying:

"....at night the bats would come out and feed off insects. In the mornings we'd find bat corpses littered around our airplanes inside open hangers."

People over at snopes discussed it on their message board and they don't seem to buy it: Bats colliding with Stealth Fighter

Apparently this came up in an episode of "The Americans" and The Atlantic found this alternate explanation:

Bats use ultrasonic signals for echolocation: these are mechanical compression waves not electromagnetic waves, as in case with radars, and have certainly nothing to do with the radar absorbent paint or any geometrical properties of the F-117A. The ultrasonic signals emitted by bats are narrow and highly directional and will reflect from most surfaces, RAM or no RAM. To explain the "dead bats" phenomenon we only need to remember that the F-117As use highly toxic paint and that the aircraft were stored in hot hangars with restricted ventilation. If the maintenance crews have spent as much time in these hangars as bats did, the bodies of bats would not have been the only dead bodies found around F-117As.

 

[Bboy AJ]

If you're an American taxpayer, hold that image to a mirror.

 

[VARIA]

Relax guys. With 400 billion more they'll be updated to be on par.

 

[dalin80]

Considering the amount of bats that kill themselves flying into my balcony windows it's probably safer to assume that the cause of death is simple stupidity.

 

[Irnbru]

Pretty sure the F35 is better than the F22 for most things (though not a big leap), not to mention having more advanced avionics and stuff F22 doesn't have. On some things, the F22 likely wins... but then it is more of a dedicated air superiority fighter, not really a multi-role strike fighter.

A hahahaha. All I got to say.
The only thing f35 does better is the cockpit 360 vision helmet.

 

[Josh7289]

Hooray Department of Defense!

 

[Woorloog]

A hahahaha. All I got to say.
The only thing f35 does better is the cockpit 360 vision helmet.

Is it? Even though the plane's a mess, or at least its development is, i'd imagine they have gotten more good stuff there than not. It is expensive, yes, but i find it hard to believe it is a complete mess.

Hard but not impossible...

EDIT Ah, one important factor i forgot: The F-35 is not meant to replace the F-22, but rather F-16. So it seems it is wrong to compare F-22 and F-35 when the comparison should be F-35 vs F-16.

 

[cjp]

The Sukhoi Su30MKI and the Sukhoi Su-35 are as good if not better than Eurofighter.
F22 is the most advanced so far without a doubt but it's also extremely expensive.

I'd be interested to hear your reasoning given that the Eurofighter beat the SU-30 in war games.

 

[BattleMonkey]

They will upgrade them, anyone who says they can't be is full of it.

 

[Stet]

And Harper was practically spooging himself to get his hands on these monstrosities.

 

[obin_gam]

If you're an American taxpayer, hold that image to a mirror.

Living in the pacifistic cowardly country of communist Sweden with a lot higher taxes than the US

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

While a 'stealth' variant it is far from being a 'stealth' craft. While it has a reduced RCS profile over the standard F-15 it's unlikely to match any new aircraft.

The standard eagle has a frontal rcs of 5.0m^2 and the F-35 has a frontal rcs of .0015m^2

For comparison sake the F-117 is 0.025m^2

What are the numbers for the Stealth Eagle?

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Why even have a gun on a jet that can only carry 180 rounds... and fire those 180 rounds out of a gun that is designed to fire 3300 rounds per minute?

<does maths>

Wait, so it's carrying just over 3 seconds worth of ammo? Have I calculated that right?

Edit: Just caught up, seems like this was covered.

 

[Frosty Droid]

Living in the pacifistic cowardly country of communist Sweden with a lot higher taxes than the US

Maybe the US Armed Forces should follow Brazil's lead and buy the Saab JAS 39 Gripen.