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[Darkangel]

And Harper was practically spooging himself to get his hands on these monstrosities.

There isn't really a better option for Canada at the moment. The Eurofighter is going to be obsolete soon enough and at least with the F-35 you get stealth and American support.

Still though, a single engine aircraft is a bad choice for arctic missions.

 

[Jezbollah]

This doesn't surprise me. The Joint Strike Fighter has been an ongoing program since 1992.

 

[Prinz Eugn]

Wow, didn't know Dave was writing clickbait schlock for Daily Beast now, I wonder how much they make him sensationalize these articles? He should know better on a lot of these points.

It makes perfect sense that a specific high-demand capability (targeting pods) that has been funded out the ass thanks to Iraq and Afghanistan would be better on active jets than a brand new one that has had much bigger issues to tackle elsewhere (like starting production...).

If they really had to, they could always integrate the newer pods later, it's not like we are sending F-35's to Afghanistan tomorrow. Part of the rationale for the program is that such a huge install base means that Block upgrades are essentially "easier" to fund, and to pretend that the F-35 EOTS won't be updated is pretty ridiculous.

 

[CharlieDigital]

I remember reading that bats would fly into the F-117s inside hangars and die, at least according to the book Skunkworks...

This is ridiculous BS because bats use sonar (sound pressure through the motion of air molecules) and the F-117 is designed to evade radar (electromagnetic waves not dependent on the motion of air molecules).

Granted, some design elements of the F-117 -- such as the angular facets -- may have some effect on the reflection of sound waves, but I have a hard time believing this anecdote.

 

[WeAreStarStuff]

400 billion dollars........400 billion dollars! Imagine if that money had actually been spent for good. Infuriating.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Wow, didn't know Dave was writing clickbait schlock for Daily Beast now, I wonder how much they make him sensationalize these articles? He should know better on a lot of these points.

It makes perfect sense that a specific high-demand capability (targeting pods) that has been funded out the ass thanks to Iraq and Afghanistan would be better on active jets than a brand new one that has had much bigger issues to tackle elsewhere (like starting production...).

If they really had to, they could always integrate the newer pods later, it's not like we are sending F-35's to Afghanistan tomorrow. Part of the rationale for the program is that such a huge install base means that Block upgrades are essentially "easier" to fund, and to pretend that the F-35 EOTS won't be updated is pretty ridiculous.

Exactly, these will be in service for decades, they will get their own upgrades and variations over the years like every other previous jet and helicopter. They got bugs to iron out, it will take time and tons of money, but so has many other fighters.

 

[Nikodemos]

<does maths>

Wait, so it's carrying just over 3 seconds worth of ammo? Have I calculated that right?

Edit: Just caught up, seems like this was covered.

The gun's control software (that currently doesn't exist) is designed to restrict salvoes to half-second bursts, meaning the F-35 has six shots. Hmm, the designer must be a fan of revolvers.

 

[CharlieDigital]

They will upgrade them, anyone who says they can't be is full of it.

Exactly, these will be in service for decades, they will get their own upgrades and variations over the years like every other previous jet and helicopter. They got bugs to iron out, it will take time and tons of money, but so has many other fighters.

That's not really the problem here.

As a taxpayer yourself, you should be questioning why a plane delivered at such a staggering cost over such a long development period is still non-performant to expectations and how much more money it will cost to bring it up to operational specification.

We're all paying for this $400bn so accountability and performance to operational specification should not just be expected, but demanded at this point.

 

[BattleMonkey]

That's not really the problem here.

As a taxpayer yourself, you should be questioning why a plane delivered at such a staggering cost over such a long development period is still non-performant to expectations and how much more money it will cost to bring it up to operational specification.

Didn't say I don't question it, it's a huge waste of money on a project, but also know that my questioning is not going to change a damn thing. Military spending is all kinds of messed up, just the amount of waste on battle tanks we have done in the past decade is insane when majority of the tanks being pumped out now just sit in armories unused to eventually be sold to another country at a loss years later.

 

[SuperSamyon]

The Cobra maneuver is impressive
http://youtu.be/b-VNSJMiNt0

Man what an incredible piece of flying! Awesome jet.

 

[FriedConsole]

You can justify any terrible government program with one word...jobs. You don't want to put people out of work. Are you a monster?

 

[Red Blaster]

this thing sucked in ace combat 5

 

[Nikodemos]

You can justify any terrible government program with one word...jobs. You don't want to put people out of work. Are you a monster?

In the F-35's case, a ton of jobs, spread over several dozens of states/countries. The decision to spread out as much as possible was quite obvious and deliberate. Creating stakeholders is the best way to make sure your corp enjoys continuous political support.

 

[RevoDS]

You can justify any terrible government program with one word...jobs. You don't want to put people out of work. Are you a monster?

You're (wrongly) assuming that that 400 billion wouldn't have been spent elsewhere. It's a common fallacy that you need to invest in the military to create jobs; it's an ideological decision to do so, not an economic one.

The jobs would still have been created without this atrocity, just in other industries (and it'd likely have been more useful work than this)

 

[CharlieDigital]

You can justify any terrible government program with one word...jobs. You don't want to put people out of work. Are you a monster?

Even if you want to make that case, the people being handed billions of dollars should be expected to do their jobs well.

Or the case could be made that $400bn would be better spent on other jobs. Build schools, hire more teachers, update failing infrastructure, build new infrastructure, modernize our electrical grid, etc.

Spoiler

I suspect the comment was sarcastic

 

[FriedConsole]

I suspect the comment was sarcastic

Sarcastic? Noooooooooo. Not at all. I totally believe any terrible government program can be justified by jobs.

Spoiler

Yes I am being sarcastic. Politically it works most every time by Dems and Republicans.

 

[Florida_Man_5000]

I think (jokingly) the objective of the F35 is to sell the world a plane much inferior to F22.

It would have been much more effective for US military to have spent that money on another production of F22s as the R&D was already paid.

 

[Ovek]

The F-35 was outdated before they even started to make the first one. And lets not even get on the subject of the hilariously bad VTOL version.

 

[Ingueferroque]

i don't quite get why they can't just change out the pods.

I guess it's space? still. make a new version.

Another 100 billion?

 

[-MB-]

A 400 billion dollar swindle to keep western countries tied to the American industrial war complex and from buying planes from competitors.
You can bet a portion of that 400b went to bribing politicians everywhere for pushing this through.

 

[iamblades]

The Strike Fighter is a euphemism for everything wrong with defense contracting at this point. The Politicians know it's a train wreck but to write off that bill is to incite rage from the public, or worse, inquiries.

I don't even blame the defense contractors on this one. This fuck up is on the branches of the armed forces for having the dumbass idea of trying to build one plane that fit all branches of the military.

They should have built a cheap non stealth vtol for the Marines, bought more F22s for the Air Force, and designed the F35 to be a Navy specific fighter.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

The gun's control software (that currently doesn't exist) is designed to restrict salvoes to half-second bursts, meaning the F-35 has six shots. Hmm, the designer must be a fan of revolvers.

Some of the posters in here seem to know what they're talking about and say that's pretty standard these days. Still, to me it just seems a little on the low side to do anything useful.

I mean, each half second burst is going to have, what, thirty bullets? You'd best not miss!

 

[Nikodemos]

A 400 billion dollar swindle to keep western countries tied to the American industrial war complex and from buying planes from competitors.

Pretty plausible.

You can bet a portion of that 400b went to bribing politicians everywhere for pushing this through.

Wouldn't be the first time for Lockheed. They spent several craploads in bribes to make NATO countries adopt that F-104 shitpile.

I mean, each half second burst is going to have, what, thirty bullets? You'd best not miss!

Thirty rounds is enough, as long as you aim them right (which is another thing the software is supposed to do, namely fire only when the hit probability is high enough, regardless of whether the trigger is pulled or not). You only need about four 25mm shells to cripple a modern fighter. In fact, even twenty rounds would be enough at a 0.8 hit probability.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Some of the posters in here seem to know what they're talking about and say that's pretty standard these days. Still, to me it just seems a little on the low side to do anything useful.

I mean, each half second burst is going to have, what, thirty bullets? You'd best not miss!

That is what the software should do.

I think it is more about space and weight. How many times will such a fighter use a gun? Not that much I bet. So why waste the space and weight on more bullets.

 

[Deadbeat]

There isn't really a better option for Canada at the moment. The Eurofighter is going to be obsolete soon enough and at least with the F-35 you get stealth and American support.

Still though, a single engine aircraft is a bad choice for arctic missions.

Should have got super hornets and bought all the necessary equipment we need. All we are doing is playing cat and mouse with the russians for the north, and their army is broke. Its just a sabre rattle and the best sabre rattle that doesnt jeopardize our pilots are some nice and delicious super hornets.

-You can customize them how you want
-if an engine goes we dont lose a pilot as well from the arctic
-its cheaper
-it doesnt shit the bed if theres moisture

 

[Can Crusher]

400 billion. Embarrassing to say the least.

 

[Nivash]

I think (jokingly) the objective of the F35 is to sell the world a plane much inferior to F22.

It would have been much more effective for US military to have spent that money on another production of F22s as the R&D was already paid.

The concept for the F-35 was initially to be the successor to the F-16 and be to the F-22 what the F-16 is to the F-15 today: a smaller, cheaper multi-role aircraft that's still capable enough to be able to operate in the same environments. Then design requirements snowballed. The Marines wanted it to replace not just the F/A-18 but the Harrier too, so they demanded VTOL capability. The Air Force wanted to replace the A-10. All branches wanted to do away with their specialised EW aircraft. And on and on.

The F-22 just isn't designed to do half of that. It's air superiority only and will never be carrier capable. Keeping gen 4 until gen 6 isn't an option either because those aircraft are not just going to be obsolete, their airframes are reaching their end of life.

The F-35 is a done deal. The cost and possible flaws are almost irrelevant at this point, it has to go live according to plan because if it doesn't NATO air power will evaporate - or more literally, fall from the skies in pieces, be it through hostile action or mass mechanical failure.

 

[Frosty Droid]

Should have got super hornets and bought all the necessary equipment we need. All we are doing is playing cat and mouse with the russians for the north, and their army is broke. Its just a sabre rattle and the best sabre rattle that doesnt jeopardize our pilots are some nice and delicious super hornets.

-You can customize them how you want
-if an engine goes we dont lose a pilot as well from the arctic
-its cheaper
-it doesnt shit the bed if theres moisture

Jalopnik's Foxtrot Alpha concurs. I wonder why Dassault's Rafael didn't make the cut.

 

[4Tran]

Is it? Even though the plane's a mess, or at least its development is, i'd imagine they have gotten more good stuff there than not. It is expensive, yes, but i find it hard to believe it is a complete mess.

The F-35 has had a terrible development history, but that's not too unusual for this kind of project. It'll get finished one day and it will be disappointing when it finally does. However, it'll see a bunch of revisions that will eventually make it sort of worthwhile, but far more expensive than advertised. The only people who will be surprised by this are those who believed Lockheed Martin.

EDIT Ah, one important factor i forgot: The F-35 is not meant to replace the F-22, but rather F-16. So it seems it is wrong to compare F-22 and F-35 when the comparison should be F-35 vs F-16.

The F-16 and the F-18 and the Harrier. These three planes cannot be reasonably replaced by a single airframe, and that's perhaps the main reason the F-35 is so troubled.

I'd be interested to hear your reasoning given that the Eurofighter beat the SU-30 in war games.

The Su-30MKI and Su-35 are much more advanced than the Su-30.

A 400 billion dollar swindle to keep western countries tied to the American industrial war complex and from buying planes from competitors.
You can bet a portion of that 400b went to bribing politicians everywhere for pushing this through.

That's true of any large military procurement program, so it doesn't represent anything special for the F-35.

Jalopnik's Foxtrot Alpha concurs. I wonder why Dassault's Rafael didn't make the cut.

Canada is allowed to make small military purchases from other countries, but large purchases have to come from the U.S.

 

[eot]

You joke, but the F-14 is dependable as fuck. They retired the old beast because some higher ups wanted shiny new toys, but it has showed to be one of the most capable jets in history. As a matter of fact, the F-14 is still Iran's main fighting jet and used it to fuck Iraq's shit during the war, with a number of poorly maintained jets manned by highly pressured crews running a train on the Iraqi air force.

They retired it because the ratio of maintenance hours to flight hours was insane.

The principal thought is that modern radars will be able to detect current jets long before combat range and have an interception missile on them while the F-35 being 'stealth' can get in, precision strike and get out again. Time will tell how that works out.

The problem is:
a) Radar tech isn't stagnant
b) When you're going head to head at Mach 1 you go from max engagement range to visual range in 3-4 minutes. BVR missiles miss, a lot. Even against non-maneuvering targets without countermeasures.
c) Target identification is a huge problem in BVR combat

People have been saying that dogfighting is dead since the 60's and it hasn't proved true yet. It's why 5-th gen jets have thrust vectoring, because maneuverability still matters.

 

[Nivash]

Some of the posters in here seem to know what they're talking about and say that's pretty standard these days. Still, to me it just seems a little on the low side to do anything useful.

I mean, each half second burst is going to have, what, thirty bullets? You'd best not miss!

Modern aircraft have sufficiently advanced targeting software that you won't. As long as you have a radar lock, the aircraft will calibrate your HUD to where it's basically hit-scan: if you fire when the death dot is over the target a kill is more or less guaranteed.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2...ock-onto-and-keep-track-of-an-enemy-aircraft/

So in other words, 6 bursts are enough for 6 kills. Or 6 attempts on 1 aircraft if you keep screwing up.

 

[GameGuru59]

Well fuck... the military needs to go back into the 1910's and talk to Henry Ford and General Motors about that whole interchangeable parts thing. What the fuck. Still, as much shit people give the F22, and 35, they are still paradigm shifts in terms of capabilities for fighter jets. What we learn from them will be rolled into the new fighters.

I have a feeling the people who develop these fighters live too much in a bubble, however. Most of the industry for this stuff is located in North LA County, and even that physical distance can isolate these engineers from scientists with other missions. For example: the fact the F22's stealth coating comes off in the rain tells me that they need some insight from materials scientists who know how to keep the stealth powder attached to the plane. They should probably put a call in to 3M.

 

[Gallbaro]

WTF?!

2x AMRAAM
2x Guided bomb
(in 2019) 180 rounds of 25mm ammo, fired at 3,300RPM

Jesus Christ. How is this supposed to replace a bunch of the jets we fly now?

AKA fuck the army.

 

[AstroNut325]

Can NASA get a few billion?

 

[Nikodemos]

People have been saying that dogfighting is dead since the 60's and it hasn't proved true yet. It's why 5-th gen jets have thrust vectoring, because maneuverability still matters.

The reason why USAF/USN have been trying to move away from dogfighting to BVR is that the traditional technological advantage a US plane had in a dogfight has pretty much vanished. Optronic/IR sensors coupled to reasonably powerful combat computers make shaking a non-radar lock all but impossible, and supermaneuvrable IR-seeker missiles with anti-spoofing algorythms/noise filters make regular flares useless. It also makes the high-tech stealth design/paint US planes exhibit completely pointless. All this stuff is readily available from several other countries indifferent or even hostile to the US.

 

[Funky Papa]

They retired it because the ratio of maintenance hours to flight hours was insane.

Was it really that bad? I mean, considering that Iran still uses them regularly. I remember reading that there were plans to develop newer versions that would satisfy the Navy's requirements just right, but people up there wanted something fresh, a clean sheet machine hosting completely new tech.

 

[cjp]

The Su-30MKI and Su-35 are much more advanced than the Su-30.

It did beat the MKI.

 

[Abounder]

F35 makes embarrassing headlines but it will be fine. No other airframe can do what it does + stealth. The older birds will be terrible for attacking a country with capable AA.

 

[Sanjay]

Wait what? 400 billion...

I mean 400 million you can let slide, but 400 fucking billion.That's like 20% of UK current total debt, its at 1.5 trillion.

America is rich.

F35 makes embarrassing headlines but it will be fine. No other airframe can do what it does + stealth. The older birds will be terrible for attacking a country with capable AA.

Who shoots back at America?

 

[nOoblet16]

It did beat the MKI.

Honestly it has a lot to do with the pilot than the plane. RAF pilots are better trained tactically than IAF pilots. Back in 2007 or 2008 in Red Flag the US air force managed to defeat the MKIs even with F16 and F15 despite the MKI having a two man crew and being the more modern plane which also happened to be Super maneuverable , the US guys were quick to admit that it was due to Indian pilots (even the best ones) lacking experience.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

But isn't close combat outdated anyway?

The last time this was brought up, air-to-air combat effectiveness and skills plummeted (Vietnam). Everyone thought all air battles would become missile fights. That eventually led to the formation of the Top Gun school and a re-emphasis on teaching dogfighting skills.

 

[eot]

Was it really that bad? I mean, considering that Iran still uses them regularly. I remember reading that there were plans to develop newer versions that would satisfy the Navy's requirements just right, but people up there wanted something fresh, a clean sheet machine hosting completely new tech.

The Tomcat needed 40+ maintenance man hours per flight hour, the Super Hornet needs less than 10. Part of that is because of the swing-wing design, but also because those planes were getting old and they wear down just like anything else. You're right about the Super Tomcat, it looked great on paper (lots of things do though, especially after the fact), but the decision about which plane to go with rarely seems to have much to do with what the best option actually is.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Who shoots back at America?

Today no one. In 30 years? Who the hell knows.

 

[sarcastor]

This stealth fighter has had a history of setbacks:

In 2013, they were grounded on February 21 due to a crack in an engine component that was discovered during a routine inspection

In July 2014, there was that bursting into fire situation, but apparently it was cleared to fly after June engine fire prompted grounding

The military says the stealthy fighter will be "the most affordable, lethal, supportable and survivable aircraft ever to be used" by so many services worldwide.

Richard Aboulafia, a Teal Group analyst, said earlier this month that every component of the F-35 overall "is pushing the frontiers of technology" as engineers combine extraordinary engine power with a lighter weight design.

I'm giong to email this Richard Aboulafia and see if he still feels the same way.

 

[Florida_Man_5000]

The last time this was brought up, air-to-air combat effectiveness and skills plummeted (Vietnam). Everyone thought all air battles would become missile fights. That eventually led to the formation of the Top Gun school and a re-emphasis on teaching dogfighting skills.

Later on, Tom Cruise would fly a tomcat upside down over a F35 and rattle that pilot with a picture of his wife naked, but then suffer a horrible training accident.

 

[jamesinclair]

If we had a functional government, people would be going to jail for this type of theft and corruption. One could dream.

 

[m_shortpants]

Military industrial complex.

Goddam.

Who the fuck is it even for?

 

[GrayFoxPL]

400 billion...

Does it transform into Starscream?

 

[Deadbeat]

Military industrial complex.

Goddam.

Who the fuck is it even for?

It basically means that the best product wont necessarily win. Its about who you know. Nothing more.

 

[Nikodemos]

Who the fuck is it even for?

Buh-buh-buh jerbz...