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F1 2012 |OT| 2011 + 1

S

Shaneus

Member
that extended post someone wrote on the forums? Bravo. Repeated for this page:


Firstly, Steve, thanks for telling us your reasoning behind all your unneeded changes.

I'll add a few of my thoughts to it all too if I may. I'll just go point by point as I read it.

"[..] without waiting five minutes for an explanation [..]"

It took you far longer than 5 minutes. I know it wasn't meant literally but that's not the point. I remember reading your tweets two days ago saying you would explain everything the next day but you didn't, you let this rage grow and didn't say a single word. As you should have imagined it only made things worse. You probably think that forums are not important enough to post replies right away but I think you're wrong. True, maybe not many people post here but many definitely read, and they tweet about what they read and tell their friends who then form an opinion based on something you didn't influence.

Also, I wouldn't call it some "internet-rage" as you did. Yes, there are lots of young kids here that will write anything they have on their mind (and which you will find offensive; deal with it) but there are even more grown up people who most of the time express their concerns constructively and I think it's only fair to say that everyone's allowed to have expectations from the product you are developing as, like it or not, we do pay your salaries after all.

You quite often like to position yourself as a manager involved with the community, listening to what we want, implementing long requested features but in reality I have never seen a single post from you asking us what we actually want or think about your ideas. A question like "Guys, what would you say if we removed tire scaling?" would have been nice, don't you think? What happened instead is people received their preorders and started playing only to find out that something as important as tyre wear scaling has been removed. Surprise! To me it smells like trying to con us, kind of like "We won't tell as long as possible so that as many people as possible buy the game! What happens afterwards doesn't matter as long as we have the sales because people tend to forget things. They forgot all the issues we had with 2010 and 2011 and they will gladly forget all the current issues too". That is an attitude that I don't like. Working only to feed your Indian owners.

"Historically I’ve gone out of my way to interact via my personal Twitter account and the forum simply because I think it creates a better relationship between those that make key decisions and those that buy the game."

You said it right there - you make decisions, we buy the game. Speaking about your personal twitter account - you shouldnt've have publicised it in the first place if you didn't want people to mention it. Lastly, you wouldn't have to "go out of your way" if you actually wanted to communicate with us. If I am wrong and you actually want to, then don't offend us by saying "look at what sacrifices I am making just to keep you lot happy" because that's what it sounds like.

"[..] the loss of two of the three Free Practice sessions [..]"

I see why you did it. I kind of agree and I don't at the same time but it's something I could live with. However, it is the same thing I mentioned before - you just removed it. Never said a single word to us. Three of you probably sat down and decided "Nah, public doesn't want it. Remove.". How long does it take to Alt+Tab to your browser, click on the forum bookmark and create a new topic saying "Practice 2 and 3 are gone. Deal with it"? A minute probably? Two? I think you are not THAT busy that you didn't have time to do it.

Now tyre wear scaling...

"It’s been removed so that there is no true variation in pure wear rates across sessions and race distances"

No, that isn't the reason, that is the outcome. It was removed because yet again some manager decided for all of us that it wasn't needed. Again, was it so hard to ask what the community had to say about an idea like that? No, but it was for you. Surely you didn't come up with this genious plan last week, did you? You had a few months to see what people would say, but, I know, it doesn't matter what some raging kiddies on these forums got to say, 'cause they're stupid. And rude.

Last year many of you could jump into a race, become accustomed to the tyre wear and how far you could push it, then jump into a different race distance only to realise you had no idea how long you could run the tyres.

For some weird reason after 2 years of playing your games it never bothered me. I never saw a single post or tweet saying that tyre wear sucks and it should be removed. And neither have you I suspect.

One thing, which stands out for me from all this is that you are making a game for two categories of people - those that only race 100% races and those that don't care about rubbish like tyre wear or 3 practice sessions. There is no middle way for you. It's my way or highway.

You wanna know how many times I raced a full 100% race in these two years? Exactly once. Why? Because I work and I can't afford to spend two hours on one race and even if I could I wouldn't because I don't get paid £10m for that. Instead I had an option to play 3 laps, 10%, 20%, which were perfect for me. In your new "imporoved" 2012 however I don't even have this basic choice! Really? Someone again decided for me that I didn't need the choice. Fine, you know better.

"[..] throwing more and more into the pot isn’t going to deliver a decent game [..]"

You removed existing features, we didn't ask you to add the scaled tyre wear or 2 more practice sessions. And we didn't ask you to add a new game mode called Grand Prix where we could create our own season either.

"[..] let me run you through a 25% race I had before writing this [..]"

What was that wall of text all about? Seriously, we didn't ask you to tell us how your race with your mates went yesterday. Your turn-by-turn explanation was longer than your main post and didn't prove or explain anything. It all just sounds like AI is instantly faster on tyres, which are fresher than yours by only a couple laps.

By the way, 17 laps is far too much for a quick race. That's half an hour of racing FYI, which is a lot for some people.

"I’d argue there will be a fair bit more tyre strategy going on in this year’s game."

I'd argue that there won't. Just because.

"I look forward to reading your feedback once you get stuck into the full game"

Guess what! I cancelled my preorder, so no sale for me. I know you'll say I'm stupid because I jumped the gun, listened to the crying kiddies on the forum. All I can say is thank you very much but I'll keep my hard earned £40 to myself. There are better ways to spend them rather than pay for a product, which was developed with no communication with the community and that has core features blatantly removed because John Doe thought it was a good idea. Oh boy, you could learn a lot from Slighly Mad Studios and the way they develop Project Cars. You can only dream about communication like that.

Anyway, hope that's polite, fair and constructive enough for you. At least I didn't call you a c**t like someone else did.

P.S.

I love how suddenly everyone's so calm and "oh, ok, if Steve decided to remove it, then that's fine". Just goes to show that the general public don't really care about all this stuff, they just keep chewing anything that gets put into their mouths. That's why gaming companies keep making profits. People always forget the bad things. Everyone's forgotten all the raging on 2010 forums, then on 2011, now 2012. Next August everyone will be hyped up yet again just to shell out for the same recycled product as they played a year before.
Click to expand...
Link
 
G

Gareth Bale

Member
Last year many of you could jump into a race, become accustomed to the tyre wear and how far you could push it, then jump into a different race distance only to realise you had no idea how long you could run the tyres.
Click to expand...

What a poor excuse. You can press a button to check tyre degradation and to be honest you should be able to feel when the tyres are about to go. Anyway, doesn't it tell you in 2011 how many laps the tyres are good for? If it didn't then couldn't they have added that? Or maybe have the race engineer tell you? There are so many possible solutions which just highlights how stupid their response of "nah, just cut it" was.
 
L

Lima

Member
Alright first two 100% races done in the Co-Op Championship with my mate.

Holy shit it was exhausting.

There is one thing that is really bugging me.

You get the same tyres for the whole weekend. That is just plain wrong. Nobody in real life would even drive a single lap in practice if that were the case.
 
N

NHale

Member
Lima said:
Alright first two 100% races done in the Co-Op Championship with my mate.

Holy shit it was exhausting.

There is one thing that is really bugging me.

You get the same tyres for the whole weekend. That is just plain wrong. Nobody in real life would even drive a single lap in practice if that were the case.
Click to expand...

No it's not.
 
D

Diablohead

Member
Tire scaling should have been an option, I really can't see why it was just flat out removed ... It was not hard to judge tyres and even 2010 tells you how long as an estimate your tyres will run for, the game even stops you trying to setup pit starts which are outright impossible like super soft for 90% then pit for hards at the end, so why is this a problem after all this time?

Terrible work from the higher ups at code masters here.
 
S

Shaneus

Member
Diablohead said:
Tire scaling should have been an option, I really can't see why it was just flat out removed ... It was not hard to judge tyres and even 2010 tells you how long as an estimate your tyres will run for, the game even stops you trying to setup pit starts which are outright impossible like super soft for 90% then pit for hards at the end, so why is this a problem after all this time?

Terrible work from the higher ups at code masters here.
Click to expand...
As mentioned in that post I posted, even if they stuck with that change a little transparency goes a long way. As it is now, only mentioning it after people ask about it just reeks of shadiness. Removing a feature like scaled tyre deg is a feature worth mentioning. If you mention the YDT, you should mention the removal of FP1 and 2, as well as the ability to race a full season as your favourite driver.

You just don't NOT mention that shit! Very, very poor form on their part. All could've been resolved (or at least, mitigated) if they told people about it in advance of the launch.
 
S

Shaneus

Member
To clarify, I did actually buy it anyway (though via a means that ensures CM get as little money as possible). I have seen what the modding community has done with 2011 and have every faith that if when Codies botch the patching (or don't do it at all) things like the steering, handling and almost all other bugs will be fixed.

Hell, we might even get a proper career mode out of it!

Norante: It's rubbish compared to what it should have been, but Foli lost his nerve and reverted the OP back to un-legendary status. The third post on this page (I was quoting a guy from the last page who quoted someone on Codies' forum) sums it up pretty well.
 
S

Shaneus

Member
Oh no, not at all. Not even remotely close! To even hint that I'm even remotely capable of such a thing is not looked upon too kindly by the moderating staff here at Gaming Age Forums.
 
H

Hzoltan69

Member
Shaneus said:
that extended post someone wrote on the forums? Bravo. Repeated for this page:



Link
Click to expand...

Without being emotionally attached to the game or any of its features, I think this guy should get a grip on reality. Does he really expect a company to make decisions by consulting with the public first? That would just be a ridiculous waste of time and resources.

They are not making a product for *HIM*. They are making it for the majority. Sales for the game (and for their next game to some extent) will show if their decisions were good or bad. Decisions obviously not supported by the community still have a chance to be changed later via updates, which is a great thing.

Communication and listening to feedbacks has its right place: after the product is finished and sold and not during the development cycle.

What everybody needs to understand is that we are talking about a multi-million dollar business here and not a community-developed game. There are countless factors for a game development company to consider and catering to the needs of every single self-righteous 15-year-old is not among them.

Despite what he may think, his ranting is anything but constructive.
 
S

Shaneus

Member
What you've written is a pretty strong indication that you haven't had the slightest bit of experience with the last two Formula 1 games developed by Codemasters. And the fact that you seem to think that the rant itself is written by (and by implication, anyone agreeing with it is) a "self-righteous 15-year-old" is so far out of whack, it's clear you have absolutely no idea what the target audience for this game is, let alone are qualified to comment on it.

Get yourself a clue before commenting on something you don't know anything about. Heck, you're first line even indicates as much.
 
N

nan0

Member
Shaneus said:
What you've written is a pretty strong indication that you haven't had the slightest bit of experience with the last two Formula 1 games developed by Codemasters. And the fact that you seem to think that the rant itself is written by (and by implication, anyone agreeing with it is) a "self-righteous 15-year-old" is so far out of whack, it's clear you have absolutely no idea what the target audience for this game is, let alone are qualified to comment on it.

Get yourself a clue before commenting on something you don't know anything about. Heck, you're first line even indicates as much.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but I think he got a point. The response was as unconstructive as the post by the Codemasters guy was. If you're in a big software project, you simply can't put feedback at random points into your code. It requires a load of organization and delegation to be so flexible, even worse if you have a deadline that can't be extended by a few weeks just because you want to add a feature.
IF you want to incorporate community feedback, you would have to do so at some point of the beginning of the development, but not somewhere in the middle. I'm not a fan of Codemasters' decisions either, but it's not as simple as the response wants it to be. That "You get insulted? Deal with it" basically negates his whole post, because you can easily turn it into "Don't like the game? Deal with it".
 
A

amar212

Member
I sincerely think that main point is making something optional - especially if you already have a complete groundwork for it.

They could easily include both options for wear - Realistic and Scaled - and let people decide which one they will use.

Same for actual format of the Career/Championship and P1/P2/P3 mess - Full and Optional - and let people decide which one they will opt for.

Problem is when you have some option which on players more demanding are used to and then you decide to take it out. I think I presume well when I say how main intention of Codemasters was to make game less complicated (because F1 as a sport is pretty damn complicated for all besides most hard-core players/followers) and more approachable to the majority of players. But than again, it is more-demanding players who are actually playing the game in post-release window (casuals move over in approx. 3 months after release for 95% of games), so it is just not nice to take the options for which you KNOW they are important to them just for the sake of commercial reasoning.

They could easily left already existing options - which are coded and existing in the code from the very beginning - and just made them non-default ones. Simple.
 
N

NHale

Member
Hzoltan69 said:
Without being emotionally attached to the game or any of its features, I think this guy should get a grip on reality. Does he really expect a company to make decisions by consulting with the public first? That would just be a ridiculous waste of time and resources.
Click to expand...

Of course not, but you can't say "I like to listen to the community" but at the same time act like T4RG4. People talk shit about Call of Duty but David Vonderhaar (MP design director) often uses twitter to ask fans what they think of some subjects. This way at least it seems he cares about the opinion of the community. T4RG4 did nothing except saying people were kids for overeacting before they bought the game.

Hzoltan69 said:
Communication and listening to feedbacks has its right place: after the product is finished and sold and not during the development cycle.
Click to expand...

I couldn't disagree more. If you don't listen to the community while you are developing the game, you are doing it wrong. Of course, I don't believe anyone is suggesting that everytime they are thinking about something they ask the community, but the "P1 and P2" or "tyre scaling" are not features, they are tweaks that supposedly were done to please the community. That's T4RG4 justification not mine, they were done because the community didn't liked not having the same point of reference on tyre wear. But how could you know this if you don't ask the community? Maybe Steve have a crystal ball in his office.

Hzoltan69 said:
What everybody needs to understand is that we are talking about a multi-million dollar business here and not a community-developed game. There are countless factors for a game development company to consider and catering to the needs of every single self-righteous 15-year-old is not among them.

Despite what he may think, his ranting is anything but constructive.
Click to expand...

Why don't you use the word "entitlement"? And implying that everyone complaining is 15-year old just shows how open you are to the critics. While the "they are just a bunch of entitled little kids" state of mind helps ignoring those that don't agree with you, is anything but constructive.

nan0 said:
Sorry, but I think he got a point. The response was as unconstructive as the post by the Codemasters guy was. If you're in a big software project, you simply can't put feedback at random points into your code. It requires a load of organization and delegation to be so flexible, even worse if you have a deadline that can't be extended by a few weeks just because you want to add a feature.
Click to expand...

Of course it's not possible to ask the community for something major like new features or handling, but you can do it for tweaks and balancing issues, which is exactly what "tyre scaling" is. But it's entirely their option not to ask nobody forces them but if you don't ask then don't say it was a community driven change or that they proud themselves of listening to the community.

amar212 said:
Problem is when you have some option which on players more demanding are used to and then you decide to take it out. I think I presume well when I say how main intention of Codemasters was to make game less complicated (because F1 as a sport is pretty damn complicated for all besides most hard-core players/followers) and more approachable to the majority of players. But than again, it is more-demanding players who are actually playing the game in post-release window (casuals move over in approx. 3 months after release for 95% of games), so it is just not nice to take the options for which you KNOW they are important to them just for the sake of commercial reasoning.
Click to expand...

That's very optimistic considering FIFA 13 launches next week and AC, Halo 4 and COD is less than 2 months away from release. In the previous years, casuals were almost gone completely after COD. Codemasters hopes the changes made this year to please them will change that.
 
N

NHale

Member
KaizorPenguin said:
Do you use a wheel or a controller? From what I've heard, controller users are a lot happier with the game.
Click to expand...

And with reason. With a controller the handling is actually good and feels 10x better than previous games (which were impossible to play with controllers imho).
 
Myoclonic Jerk

Myoclonic Jerk

Member
KaizorPenguin said:
Do you use a wheel or a controller? From what I've heard, controller users are a lot happier with the game.
Click to expand...

I have the Logitech G25 or something, but I'm too arsed to dust it out. But I remember when I played the 2010 one, the controller was much easier, the steering wasn't as satisfying as using it with GT5

I'm not sure if they fixed it in 2011 though
 
D

DD

Member
"like it or not, we do pay your salaries after all"


What a jerk...


NHale said:
And with reason. With a controller the handling is actually good and feels 10x better than previous games (which were impossible to play with controllers imho).
Click to expand...

Aw, c'mon, I've played 2010 and 2011 with an Xbox controller without any problem. And honestly, 2012's handling model is way better than 2011's, IMHO. :)
 
D

Diablohead

Member
I'm home and not on some shabby phone 3g connection now but thinking more about things, removing these features, how is it actually improving sales in any way? people buy the games on what they know and the name, the fact that codemasters never said anything about removing features and some rather important race effecting conditions meant that no one knew, it's just going to hamper sales more then improve them and it's already scared me away from what might happen next year, Grid is not helping my thoughts much either.

I read that large post by the guy on the codemasters forums and the reply by a user, the entire thing could have easily been avoided with a few toggle options.
 
N

NHale

Member
Diablohead said:
I'm home and not on some shabby phone 3g connection now but thinking more about things, removing these features, how is it actually improving sales in any way? people buy the games on what they know and the name, the fact that codemasters never said anything about removing features and some rather important race effecting conditions meant that no one knew, it's just going to hamper sales more then improve them and it's already scared me away from what might happen next year, Grid is not helping my thoughts much either.

I read that large post by the guy on the codemasters forums and the reply by a user, the entire thing could have easily been avoided with a few toggle options.
Click to expand...

If nobody knows about the features removed they will only focus about the additions that are mentioned on the back cover (YDT, Champions Mode*, Season Challenge, etc.). And to the casual market those modes sound amazing even if they are broken/renamed modes that were already there last year.

And the game plays better for casuals and that's why they released the demo. The changes were made to them not to those that race in leagues and/or are passionate about the sport. I can definitely understand that, it's a business after all and they are free to do whatever they want. It's just a shame that in the process they screwed those that have wheels.

* - If anyone wants a laugh just search for YT videos of the Jenson Button Challenge. The challenge is 3 laps and for the first 2 the AI is super quick and you can't catch them but when you enter the last lap the rubberbanding kicks in and the AI stops in a train waiting for you to catch them. That's what racing against champions really is!
 
Bucket-o-roadkill

Bucket-o-roadkill

Member
So is there a trick to fix the under steering bug they've brought in this year? This is unplayable, oh and the online is even more broken too. They've been busy this year haven't they!
 
D

DD

Member
NHale said:
* - If anyone wants a laugh just search for YT videos of the Jenson Button Challenge. The challenge is 3 laps and for the first 2 the AI is super quick and you can't catch them but when you enter the last lap the rubberbanding kicks in and the AI stops in a train waiting for you to catch them. That's what racing against champions really is!
Click to expand...

I don't know if that's the reason, but have you notice that all IA drivers were using the green (intermediate) tires, while the player was using blue (wet) tires? Since this game is capable of change the weather conditions on the fly, maybe that's the reason of the sudden pace change.
 
D

dinosaur_hunter2

Member
Bucket-o-roadkill said:
So is there a trick to fix the under steering bug they've brought in this year? This is unplayable, oh and the online is even more broken too. They've been busy this year haven't they!
Click to expand...
Did you try tweaking the settings a little? The faster the car, the more understeer you get. I'm almost used to it now after two races in.
 
N

nan0

Member
NHale said:
* - If anyone wants a laugh just search for YT videos of the Jenson Button Challenge. The challenge is 3 laps and for the first 2 the AI is super quick and you can't catch them but when you enter the last lap the rubberbanding kicks in and the AI stops in a train waiting for you to catch them. That's what racing against champions really is!
Click to expand...

I just watched it. Hamilton has Wet tyres on, the others are on Inters. The track is getting wetter, so what tyres have an advantage? It's pretty clear which car can drive faster in increasingly worse conditions. While it may be rubberbanding, it's not completely unrealistic.
 
N

NHale

Member
nan0 said:
I just watched it. Hamilton has Wet tyres on, the others are on Inters. The track is getting wetter, so what tyres have an advantage? It's pretty clear which car can drive faster in increasingly worse conditions. While it may be rubberbanding, it's not completely unrealistic.
Click to expand...

Watch how Senna (car ahead) recovers 2/3 seconds after the 1st corner and how the other cars ahead create a train despite having the same intermediate tyres. It's rubberbanding, the same way Maldonado suddenly starts catching the user controlled car as soon as he gets the lead.
 
R

Ravenn17

Member
NHale said:
Watch how Senna (car ahead) recovers 2/3 seconds after the 1st corner and how the other cars ahead create a train despite having the same intermediate tyres. It's rubberbanding, the same way Maldonado suddenly starts catching the user controlled car as soon as he gets the lead.
Click to expand...

If you watch the whole video, you will notice that Maldonado is on the same tire strategy as the user. Every time the user passes someone, Maldonado follows suit, and is right on the user's tail. I'm not saying rubber banding isn't in the game, but don't jump to conclusions.
 
D

DownWithTheShip

Member
Just got the PC version. Wow! This is great!

The last version I played on the PC was 2010 and it didn't perform very well for me. 2012 hasn't given me any performance issues. Very smooth. It's a nice improvement over 2010.
 
F

Foliorum Viridum

Banned
amar212 said:
I sincerely think that main point is making something optional - especially if you already have a complete groundwork for it.

They could easily include both options for wear - Realistic and Scaled - and let people decide which one they will use.
Click to expand...

This is really my issue with it all is. Trying to cater everyone when the groundwork was there to let people decide what they want for themselves. It blows my mind that this year we have significantly less choices of how to play the game than last year.
 
TJP

TJP

Member
A few PC mods already appearing on specialist racing sim forums. Quite a few on RaceDepartment with more on the way...

Higher def car liveries: http://www.racedepartment.com/forum/microdownloads/31/viewcat - these change the car liveries from approx 5 MB each to around 40MB. 7 are available at the moment with more coming plus one file changes some of the advertising hoardings.

Helmets, gloves and suits: http://www.racedepartment.com/forum/microdownloads/30/viewcat

Misc mods such as camera mods and change which team you start your career with: http://www.racedepartment.com/forum/microdownloads/32/viewcat

I'm glad I bought F1 2012 for the PC after a few days of indecision as it's good fun.
 
K

Kabouter

Member
Probably a stupid question, but how do you tell your team you want to switch to intermediates or wets when it starts raining during a race?
 
F

Foliorum Viridum

Banned
TJP said:
A few PC mods already appearing on specialist racing sim forums. Quite a few on RaceDepartment with more on the way...

Higher def car liveries: http://www.racedepartment.com/forum/microdownloads/31/viewcat - these change the car liveries from approx 5 MB each to around 40MB. 7 are available at the moment with more coming plus one file changes some of the advertising hoardings.

Helmets, gloves and suits: http://www.racedepartment.com/forum/microdownloads/30/viewcat

Misc mods such as camera mods and change which team you start your career with: http://www.racedepartment.com/forum/microdownloads/32/viewcat

I'm glad I bought F1 2012 for the PC after a few days of indecision as it's good fun.
Click to expand...
Visual mods are okay, but be wary of ones that change anything else. They used to fuck up 2010 for me royally.
 
M

MoGamesXNA

Unconfirmed Member
Is there any way to disable wet weather racing in the championship mode?

If there is a mod to force clear weather on the PC version, please do enlighten me. It has somewhat hampered my enjoyment of the game. Let's say that a lack of QA is at fault (which isn't surprising having owned the previous two versions of the game).
 
A

Addnan

Member
I can not drive in the wet at all. Driving in Malaysia, starts raining so I go in for some wets. Come out and I can not get any grip, car just starts spinning, brakes locking up, so I turn up the assists, turned ABS on and traction to full. Still spinning out. :/
 
D

dk_

Member
Addnan said:
I can not drive in the wet at all. Driving in Malaysia, starts raining so I go in for some wets. Come out and I can not get any grip, car just starts spinning, brakes locking up, so I turn up the assists, turned ABS on and traction to full. Still spinning out. :/
Click to expand...

You need to drive 2 rounds to warm up the tires.
 
S

Samiad

Member
Addnan said:
I can not drive in the wet at all. Driving in Malaysia, starts raining so I go in for some wets. Come out and I can not get any grip, car just starts spinning, brakes locking up, so I turn up the assists, turned ABS on and traction to full. Still spinning out. :/
Click to expand...

This was my experience until I stopped trying to 'guess' what tyres I needed based on what the graphics were showing me... for example, the track might seem completely waterlogged, so I'd go for full wets and then discover that the track actually needed inters.. you pit for inters then hey presto, you have grip again.

Now I just listen to the engineer and do what he says, pretty much when he says it.
 
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