Haha. It's one of the most unintentionally hilarious thing's I've ever seen and I'm not even talking about the CG shit!I watched some of the CG fight scenes
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Fall 2012 Anime |OT| Meet the new world, same as the old world
- Thread starter Dresden
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Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
Leave Nia alone you arseholes...
You're boring.
Both are awesome in the way they fuck with the audience. I think Cross Days is even better than School Days at that!
I'll give it another chance! >:I :lol
I definitely agree with you on the second part.
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Kanamemo - 05
Awwwww!
That moment was ridiculously sweet. Yuuki is definitely my favorite among the girls. Reserved, refined, and caring for those around her. What I really like about her moments with Yume is that they're so laid back and cas-
http://i.imgur.com/LeHmU.png (NSFW)
http://i.imgur.com/z5Khp.png (NSFW)
http://i.imgur.com/lhCQE.png (NSFW)
http://i.imgur.com/VHHDf.png (NSFW)
http://i.imgur.com/hj658.png (NSFW)
http://i.imgur.com/MKegB.png (NSFW)
MANIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIAC!
*dies*
I still can't get over how everyone was crazy. Shit was relentless.
I watched some of the CG fight scenes
Those weren't the funny part!
Can't post this inline because of spoilers I guess.
Comedy gold.
dakkumauji
Member
So I caught up with my good backlog, made it through my boring backlog and now I'm stuck with #hatebacklog.
Sword Art Online 10
Action wasn't pleasing on the eyes. Or very interesting.
Romance doesn't help one bit.
Sword Art Online 10
Action wasn't pleasing on the eyes. Or very interesting.
Romance doesn't help one bit.
Needed more ax-crazy.
I'm probably the only one here who feels this way, but I'm kinda looking forward to OniAi because of Keiichiro Kawaguchi's directing work in Mayo Chiki, Nyan Koi, and Hayate no Gotoku Season 1. Even if the subject material in those weren't the best, I feel like those were relatively notable to me for being pretty funny (at least, that was my impressions, and especially so with Hayate) and things like the comedic timing or the pacing of each are definitely similar enough for me to attribute it to Kawaguchi's directing.
Mary Sue might not be the best term since she's not as much a perfect audience surrogate as a perfect waifu. Still, she's an annoyingly flawless character with an incredibly contrived role.
you forgot the awful, awful, awful VA
Well, that doesn't have anything to do with the writing though.
Well, shes just a perfect storm of Waifu/Sueness from the writing to the design and the voicing
I think Mary Sue is a pretty good term here. GL isn't a "waifu" anime really, since the focus is on how manly and cool Simon is, and how he fights with his bros. Simon's aspects are appealing to a female audience, especially since he is initially non-threatening as a kid. Nia fits as a Mary Sue because from a female perspective she is:
- the headstrong and confident rich girl who chooses moral right over being born into wealth and power
- she suffers for being who she is, only to be rescued by the prince in shining armor, and then works her way into the group, and makes major unique contributions which only she can, because of who she is
There's a lot more if we get into spoiler territory, but basically, I can definitely see a lot of girls dreaming about being Nia, even with all the hardships she goes through, because even those things only make her a "stronger" character in terms of how noble she is and what she means to Simon.
Mary Sues have little to do with the audience. They're either author surrogates or the embodiment of what the author considers ideal.
Urobuchi is a very interesting writer. I like him a lot, and I'm a huge fan of his works. But it has come to my attention that some people consider him a bad writer. Looking into these opinions and considering the facts have led me to a conclusion. Urobuchi is a writer who does not aim higher than what he deems necessary for a given topic. He is a pulp writer who is more interested in delivering a tight and coherent experience that fits nicely into the concept being sold to an audience, and he is more interested in "pandering" to the satisfaction of the audience and managing expectations very neatly, rather than having something particularly profound or meaningful to say.
And thinking about this led me to realize that the reason I like his form of writing is that for mainstream anime these days, I feel this is exactly what I want and need from it. When there is a solid production behind a concept which I find appealing, the last thing I want is for the creators to be "too smart" and try to out-think the audience, or make their characters so philosophical that they become parodies of themselves. I just want what I was promised, and if there is foreshadowing and teasing of stuff, I expect those to be deliver in the proper proportion that the show is suggesting.
Saya no Uta, Madoka, Fate/Zero, these all fall perfectly under this category. Nothing is promised but under-delivered, if you expect the story to "go there", it will, because if it hints at it, it will deliver. If it isn't going to "go there", it will not suggest it to begin with. The endings are also major game changing events, which walks the fine line between feeling conclusive, and also being bittersweet. Urobuchi also tends to specifically write in moments in the endings which show that the characters who survived or won something "earned" it in some way. This reinforces the audience's satisfaction with how "watertight" the entire story is, and it feels more conclusive and cohesive as a whole.
My point is that I don't think it matters to me that Urobuchi doesn't "aim high" because the important thing for me is that so far when he has been seriously involved with a project, he doesn't "miss the goal". And while he doesn't aim high, he also tends to write in very interesting genres which don't really exist much anywhere else these days. Even something like Blassreiter isn't common at all, and in the hands of a better studio and director, it could have been something really special. His most "generic" work to speak of would be Phantom of the Inferno, and only because Bee Train went out of their way to water the entire "girls with guns" genre down year after year from Noir onwards. When Bee Train stopped, so did that genre.
tl;dr: I dunno... if you didn't bother to read all that text I spent time typing... FUCK YOU!!! Lol.
I do somewhat disagree with your analysis of Urobuchi. I think specifically because of Madoka in that Madoka wasn't a typical magical girl show and instead was a subversion. It very much wasn't pandering to the audience(unless they like gore and suffering). He doesn't get lofty like Oshii does or Sato did in Ergo Proxy which is perfectly fine as the writing tends to go off the rails when writers get philosophical. You are selling him short however in that he does discuss utilitarian concepts and in general is more interested in psychology and morality. I mean look at Kirei, you have a guy who not only comes to terms with his sadistic side but is seemingly rewarded for it. Then you have Kyubey, who people still argue whether he was evil or not. He very much is interested in certain social concepts and does try to bring it up in his works. The difference is that he doesn't let those concepts overwhelm the story and always keeps the narrative at the forefront.
Just for all the Mari Okada fans here: http://www.fandompost.com/2012/10/02/animefest-2012-sayo-yamamoto-panel-report/
Crash Station
Member
I actually like Nia. Her pupils are awesome.
I don't know if I'd call an incredibly naive girl
that was thrown out by her father
I think her role works very well because she's literally
a plot device given will
Yeah, I neglected to think about the perspective of female fans of GL just because it's just so over-the-top shounen, but girls like shounen too.
It's naive to think that Madoka subverting certain tropes means it isn't pandering. Urobuchi gave people exactly what they wanted.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Who? And what did they want? I mean if people were interested in the magical girl component, it wasn't that big of a deal in the show and Madoka
doesn't sign a contract till the final episode
Its like Im in Bizarro-land or something
None of the bad things that happened to her were her fault, though. That's part of being a Mary Sue, just like with Kirito, her life sucks because of the cruelty of fate and we're supposed to be attracted by her effortless nobility when face-to-face with despair.
Jex
Member
Old etc.
Exactly there is a segment of people who like seeing the subversive take on superheroes/magical girls (Mark Millar builds his career on it). Pandering to that group is pandering nonetheless.
They wanted to see Urobuchi subvert magical girl tropes. Enjoying subversions is pretty common for fans of a genre because it stimulates the box-checking part of their brains.
Then you could make an argument of pandering for any major work then.
gashikunFLCL
Member
Me too...Today is going to be a long night...starded on page 75 and I'm on 86.
Oh well, back to catching up.
Madoka Magica is an action thriller which starts with an apocalyptic event. Then it introduces a mystery female character who knows the main character, even though she does not know her. There is a connection hinted at, and the premises promises that something sinister is about to happen to everyone who is living a "normal life".
Don't think of it as a magical girl show or a that people who go into a genre are looking for certain particular things. I am talking about what the show establishes from the onset, and what it delivers. The entire narrative is completely transparent, and hence it is incredibly effective in drawing people in and then meeting their expectations by giving them what they want.
Episode 10 of Madoka Magica is exactly what I am talking about. The show foreshadows and teases "who is Homura?!" for 9 episodes, and then spends an entire episode detailing the entire mystery and revealing it in a satisfying but orthodox way. Viewers are literally being given what they want. This is not a bad thing. But it is a staple of pulp writing.
chickdigger802
Banned
bigger question. If you are gonna watch the animes of the day (week), do you catch up on those first before you read every post?
PdotMichael
Banned
Well, how can you make a magical girl anime (or something else) without some kind of "pandering"?
any character doing anything effortlessly is uninteresting, as are static characters that never change
I hated her as a character because she had no character
Urobuchi is one of my favorite writers recently.
Madoka and Fate Zero were both strokes of genius.
You could. I found Madoka to be pandering, not so much Fate/Zero.
from those two shows it seems they don't like to slot characters into good or evil (apart from the character madoka I guess)
there is a lot of grey area which is awesome
To expand on this, let's compare it to something that fails: Darker than Black s2.
Who is the protagonist? Suou I guess, but Hei is important too. What is their motivation? Suou just follows Hei along mindlessly even though he
"killed" her father.
Kill her? Why?
In fact, I can only think of two characters in the whole show who have a somewhat clear motivation: Misaki, and that abominable teenage skateboarder dude, and they both have the same shallow motivation, which is sexual attraction to someone who doesn't want them.
Dat Mari Okada top-rated screenwriting.
Jex
Member
But that's exactly the kind of thing people like watching, isn't it? I mean, not only are there a fair number of otaku who enjoy those things directly there's a much wider audience that's thoroughly entertained by the shock value. Why are horror movies so consistently and universally popular if people don't enjoy gore and suffering on some level? Either because they actually enjoy gore and suffering or because of the cathartic effect of such 'horror' works.
More over, 'tragedy porn' is a very popular genre in light novels/anime/whatever. It's very "in". A number of extremely popular works have it as a key theme.
PdotMichael
Banned
I thought the infodumps segments were fanservice or pandering to a target group, something I can't say about any scenes in Madoka.
Fate/Zero panders to fujoshi.
Since Jarmel seems to have misunderstood my general point, I'll further clarify it: I am not saying that Urobuchi is a writer to panders to an particular audience. My wording specifically said that he is pandering to audience expectations. As in, the audience already reading/playing/watching whatever he got them into in the first place. Another way to put it is, he gives people what they expect and want from his stories. Every single time.
I think if we're talking about something that has not aired yet, Psycho-Pass is also a good example of this. I would say most of us are excited for it because it promises to be another Urobuchi "ride" where the characters are set up in a fragile scenario where things will start falling apart, and the system and their weapons will eventually turn against them. Someone will be betrayed, many people will die. This is what we expect out of the premise because it is traditionally what is entertaining about such a premise, and based on Urobuchi's past work, we have a relative high level of confidence that he will "deliver" on that.
Yet if viewed from a creative and artistic point of view, that is incredibly artificial and unoriginal. If we already know what to expect, that means there's a level of predictability in the entire narrative and premise to begin with. But since it is just entertainment and we would rather have something we enjoy than something that is bad, it's not a bad thing. That's why pulp writing is not a negative point by itself.
I think if we're talking about something that has not aired yet, Psycho-Pass is also a good example of this. I would say most of us are excited for it because it promises to be another Urobuchi "ride" where the characters are set up in a fragile scenario where things will start falling apart, and the system and their weapons will eventually turn against them. Someone will be betrayed, many people will die. This is what we expect out of the premise because it is traditionally what is entertaining about such a premise, and based on Urobuchi's past work, we have a relative high level of confidence that he will "deliver" on that.
Yet if viewed from a creative and artistic point of view, that is incredibly artificial and unoriginal. If we already know what to expect, that means there's a level of predictability in the entire narrative and premise to begin with. But since it is just entertainment and we would rather have something we enjoy than something that is bad, it's not a bad thing. That's why pulp writing is not a negative point by itself.
Well I think that's just proper foreshadowing. George R.R. Martin makes a point of not going on forums or fansites as he doesn't want to try and outsmart the reader, and I doubt anyone would accuse him of pulp writing. I think it's about being natural in that the story is built a certain way and instead of trying to pull Lindelof shit that doesn't make sense, you let the story go its natural course.
Unless someone ruined them on the hook of the show(mainly stuff after post-episode 3) then I doubt people would go in expecting gore/suffering. Certain people made guesses because Urobuchi did Saya no Uta prior but based on the show itself, it's not something that someone interested in horror movies would be initially interested in. They even made the OP light-hearted as fuck to trick people. I rewatched the first four episodes and it's ridiculous that the extent that they went to, to trick people.
But GRRM was a pulp scifi writer for most of his career...
Heck, one of his short stories was even turned into an Outer Limits episode.
Regarding that notion, there's also a misleading element I enjoyed too.
I didn't know what I was getting into with Madoka aside from the weird Kyubey meme stuff and found myself thinking him not so bad and probably who the girls should listen to. Conversely, I thought Kiritsugu was going to be the most evil motherfucker around based on his introduction and the talk of his past. Not to say he wasn't ruthless in his methods but the truth of some his past deeds, namely destroying an airliner to get at one target, created a false first impression that was pretty far removed from the truth.
Well, Martin spent his whole career writing pulp, pretty much. It's hard to go through his bibliography and the catalog of short stories he's written without coming to that conclusion. By no means is it a slight on the man himself, just a statement of his intent, rather than the quality of his works.
I think some of the disagreement here comes from (what I assume) is your misconception that the label 'pulp' denotes inferiority in terms of structure or coherence.
I would say predictability is inherent to all of narrative writing. It is extremely hard to write something that is both completely unpredictable and good. In most cases you only have one big surprise in a story; after that surprises either suffer from diminishing returns, or the writing falls apart attempting to serve bigger and better surprises.
re: Madoka/Urobuchi, I'll just say that I appreciate works that don't attempt to obfuscate their message or intent behind layers of abstraction. The audience should not have to work too hard for their entertainment. Leave the task of deeply analyzing a work to the academics.
The possibility of characters dying and shit getting real is more unpredictable than predictable. Its the same kind of appeal that Quentin Tarentino's films have and its an extra layer of possibility in which you know certain shows will not ever touch.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Yeah, Martin is a pulp writer. He writes pulpy scifi and fantasy.But GRRM was a pulp scifi writer for most of his career...
Heck, one of his short stories was even turned into an Outer Limits episode.
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