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Tonari 1

Looks nice, sounds nice, but it's kind of boring to watch. There is something missing, either the pace or the flow, but it didn't make the same impression the manga did on me, i.e. hook me up and keep me entertained.

 

[duckroll]

I would say predictability is inherent to all of narrative writing. It is extremely hard to write something that is both completely unpredictable and good. In most cases you only have one big surprise in a story; after that surprises either suffer from diminishing returns, or the writing falls apart attempting to serve bigger and better surprises.

I don't think that predictability is inherent to all narrative writing, but I do think it is inherent to the majority of narrative writing which builds up to climax or revolves around specific events. The opposite of being predictable is not always being unpredictable. There are many stories which are not predictable or unpredictable, but rather simply flow naturally without giving many/any hints of where it might go next. Most of these are character driven in nature and more about a character's experience or the world around the character, rather than "things happening" or "shit hitting the fan".

 

[Jex]

re: Madoka/Urobuchi, I'll just say that I appreciate works that don't attempt to obfuscate their message or intent behind layers of abstraction. The audience should not have to work too hard for their entertainment. Leave the task of deeply analyzing a work to the academics.

If you're Urobuchi and you're writing pulp, then yes that's seems like the most effective way to write a story. If you're doing something else though I don't think the same should hold true. Not every work should be 'easily digestible' and there's nothing wrong with making an audience do some actual work to appreciate whatever they're watching/reading. It's not simply a matter for academics, there should be works that actively strive to challenge the audience rather than simply laying everything out for them. A book or a show that rewards your hard work in understanding it can be extremely satisfying.

 

[Branduil]

I don't think that predictability is inherent to all narrative writing, but I do think it is inherent to the majority of narrative writing which builds up to climax or revolves around specific events. The opposite of being predictable is not always being unpredictable. There are many stories which are not predictable or unpredictable, but rather simply flow naturally without giving many/any hints of where it might go next. Most of these are character driven in nature and more about a character's experience or the world around the character, rather than "things happening" or "shit hitting the fan".

Right, I wasn't talking about surprises in a plot-point-to-plot-point way, which are always possible, but the direction of the narrative as a whole. In narrative stories you pretty much always have to have a main character who will make an important decision at the end of the story which decides the dramatic question. There are certain exceptions, like Psycho, but that really just proves the rule.

 

[sleepykyo]

I thought the infodumps segments were fanservice or pandering to a target group, something I can't say about any scenes in Madoka.

Which is why I agreed that the case could made for anything. And I could see their being a case of long dialogue porn in Fate/Zero.

But in general Madoka really dwells on magical girls get fucked up. Let's face it the series doesn't really get any attention until bad things happen and they keep happening even after things change.

If K-On is the gold standard of cute girls doing cute things then Madoka would be the gold standard of bad things happen to cute girls.

Well not counting the works that focus specifically focus on heroines getting humiliated, raped and dismembered.

 

[duckroll]

Right, I wasn't talking about surprises in a plot-point-to-plot-point way, which are always possible, but the direction of the narrative as a whole. In narrative stories you pretty much always have to have a main character who will make an important decision at the end of the story which decides the dramatic question. There are certain exceptions, like Psycho, but that really just proves the rule.

Sure, in a general way, it's good to be somewhat transparent so people know what they're getting into. There are exceptions where you really have no idea what you're getting into, and that can be either very good or very bad, but it's not the norm. I agree.

 

[Jarmel]

Well, Martin spent his whole career writing pulp, pretty much. It's hard to go through his bibliography and the catalog of short stories he's written without coming to that conclusion. By no means is it a slight on the man himself, just a statement of his intent, rather than the quality of his works.

I think some of the disagreement here comes from (what I assume) is your misconception that the label 'pulp' denotes inferiority in terms of structure or coherence.

I would say most people would denote pulp as a negative terminology mainly in the context that it applies to a person's basic instincts such as sex, violence, and being formulaic. While yes he did do pulp, I think some of the basic characteristics of his writing doesn't fit in that subgenre.

 

[Risette]

Saying something is pulp isn't criticizing it, it's describing it.

 

[Branduil]

Sure, in a general way, it's good to be somewhat transparent so people know what they're getting into. There are exceptions where you really have no idea what you're getting into, and that can be either very good or very bad, but it's not the norm. I agree.

Yeah, I mean, even things you could argue are an exception, like say Higurashi, where you have a

Spoiler

decoy protagonist

, ultimately follows the rules of narrative stories, it just disguises that fact for a good portion of the story. And I think it works in Higurashi and Psycho because in some ways both works actually function like two separate but sequential stories.

 

[Jarmel]

Saying something is pulp isn't criticizing it, it's describing it.

When the word has a negative connotation then yes that would be a criticism.

 

[firehawk12]

I would say most people would denote pulp as a negative terminology mainly in the context that it applies to a person's basic instincts such as sex, violence, and being formulaic. While yes he did do pulp, I think some of the basic characteristics of his writing doesn't fit in that subgenre.

Previous to ASOIAF, he worked on Wild Cards... the very definition of pulp.

 

[Risette]

When the word has a negative connotation then yes that would be a criticism.

The word anime has a negative connotation to most people......

 

[firehawk12]

The word anime has a negative connotation to most people......

Cartoons are for babies and Seth MacFarlane fans.
(Oh wait, they're the same!)

 

[Jarmel]

Previous to ASOIAF, he worked on Wild Cards... the very definition of pulp.

And ASOIAF I think doesn't fit into that defintion of pulp now. I found a fairly decent definition of pulp and I would say his writing on ASOIAF doesn't fit into that:

Whenever this discussion will come about, someone will chime in that "pulp" refers to the type of paper that the magazines were printed on, and that there were many, many types of stories in the pulps. A true pendant will only claim that only these magazines count as "pulp", and that RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK and SKY CAPTAIN are not pulp at all.

These people are useless and should be shot.

Because by now, "pulp" has come to mean a certain type of adventure story with roots in the pulp magazines of the 1920's and 1930's. Even though romance stories and true-life adventures had their own pulp magazines, these aren't the kind of stories most people now associate with the term.

But what is it about those examples that make them pulp? What does that set of tropes include?
1) Breakneck speed. The pulps were written fast and meant to be read fast. The also included a twist or cliffhanger every "chapter" to keep things moving and keep the audience's interest up. That's one of the reasons why the cliffhanger serial is often mentioned in the same breath as the pulp stories. The radio adventures of the time, often broadcast five times a week in 15-minute segments, were similarly paced.

2) Broad characterization, often to the point of stereotype. Character study and growth slows down the pace of both writing and reading the stories. Archetypes get a lot of play here; there's little difference between the Shadow and the Spider and other masked avengers apart from their personal gimmicks and the names of their associates.

3) Gimmicks. Because of point #2, gizmos and motif are very important for crimefighting heroes. You can't tell the difference between Doc Savage and the Avenger through their dialogue, personality, or even their methods. It's their gimmicks (Doc's stun pistol, armored vest, and other gadgets versus the Avenger's twin knives and malleable features) and trademarks (Doc's bronze skin and gold-flaked eyes versus the Avenger's chalk-white, immobile face) that differentiate them.

4) Clearly defined, black and white morality. The good guys were good (even if they were bloodthirsty psychotics), and the bad guys were bad (even if they were fighting to free their people from foreign tyranny). The status quo was rarely, if ever, questioned.

5) Exotic locations. The world still had plenty of dark and mysterious corners for heroes to explore in this era.

6) Fuzzy science. No time to research or explain actual scientific principals. Or accurate details about the location you're using in the latest story. Or actual history. Or anything, really. Just use what you already “know” and run with that death ray, foreign stereotypes, and hidden Viking temple.

7) The era. Like Dickens and Conan Doyle, most of the pulp writers set their stories in the here and now. Intending their stories to be thoroughly modern, they would often include details and settings that, while familiar to readers of the day, end up dating the work. (Which, of course, was not really a concern for entertainment intended to be completely disposable.) As with Dickens and Conan Doyle, their stories have become inextricably linked with the historical era in which they were written.

Of course, these tropes were not applicable to every pulp story or even every sub-genre. Western pulps, for example, were often set in the past rather than the present (though there are plenty of examples in all media of pulp Westrerns set in the “present day”, with cowpokes and cattle rustlers using airplanes and radios in addition to horses and sixguns). Hard-boiled detective stories usually shook up the clear-cut morality found in other pulps. And many of the stories in the science fiction pulps were grounded in the actual science of the day. While I haven’t had a chance to read the new edition of Pulp Hero, the old Justice, Inc. game did a terrific job of describing and defining several pulp sub-genres, including spicy tales! And each of the adventure books for FGU’s Daredevils featured a different sub-genre, from “bring ‘em back alive” jungle tales to supernatural chillers.

These tropes also apply to modern adventure stories that seek to capture a pulp feel. BUCKAROO BANZAI, for example, uses six of the seven tropes I mention above, and the Indian Jones films features all of them.

I’ve written this post in the same manner as the pulps – fast and without checking my facts. Let the contention begin!

Hope this helps,
TomG

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?243789-What-does-quot-Pulp-quot-mean-to-you/page2

Many of these things have a negative connotation now and so in attachment, does the term.

 

[duckroll]

When the word has a negative connotation then yes that would be a criticism.

No, pulp does not have negative connotations. If you think it does, that says more about you than everyone else honestly. Tarantino is a highly regarded director/writer in Hollywood, and he does not shy away from nor reject the accurate label that he is providing pulp entertainment. In fact, he relishes in it.

 

[firehawk12]

And ASOIAF I think doesn't fit into that defintion of pulp now. I found a fairly decent definition of pulp and I would say his writing on ASOIAF doesn't fit into that:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?...n-to-you/page2

Even if ASOIAF isn't 'pulp', it's not like Martin suddenly forgot his entire career as a writer before the fantasy stuff and became an entirely different writer.

 

[Narag]

Cartoons are for babies and Seth MacFarlane fans.
(Oh wait, they're the same!)

This is like what happened a couple pages back when One Piece was referred to as a kid's show to the chagrin of a couple folk. Just a description but the worst was assumed.

 

[Dresden]

I found a good definition of pulp too.

 

[firehawk12]

This is like what happened a couple pages back when One Piece was referred to as a kid's show to the chagrin of a couple folk. Just a description but the worst was assumed.

Ah, fun times. lol

 

[Branduil]

I don't think being a pulp writer has negative connotations like calling some a hack writer. I think the most important think for a writer is to understand why and how the fundamental elements of storytelling work. As long as you understand those you can write something that's entertaining, it doesn't matter what genre it is.

 

[Jarmel]

No, pulp does not have negative connotations. If you think it does, that says more about you than everyone else honestly. Tarantino is a highly regarded director/writer in Hollywood, and he does not shy away from nor reject the accurate label that he is providing pulp entertainment. In fact, he relishes in it.

Tarantino has been bashed repeatedly over the head about that. Yes he relishes in it but it's also his biggest source of criticism.

 

[jman2050]

I would say predictability is inherent to all of narrative writing. It is extremely hard to write something that is both completely unpredictable and good. In most cases you only have one big surprise in a story; after that surprises either suffer from diminishing returns, or the writing falls apart attempting to serve bigger and better surprises.

Thinking about it, I wouldn't call most good plot twists unpredictable. I'd call them subversive. To me, a good plot twist relies on misdirection, setting up a situation where the audience is expecting A but is given B instead, with the story structured so that B was the obvious route all along, but *only* in hindsight. An even better setup is if the audience is expecting either A B or C but gets D instead.

Madoka spoilers:

Spoiler

Mami's death was a good example of this, but not because she died per se. Early character death isn't exactly a new thing in fiction and heck, it's played out to death even in Madoka's own subgenre. Episode 3 established all the recognizable cues that Mami likely wasn't going to survive and did everything short of flashing a giant neon sign at you. But see, that was part of the misdirection. What I was expecting was for Mami to get fatally injured. She'd be down for he count, Madoka/Homura/whatever would kill the monster, and Mami would probably lament her carelessness as her friends watched on crying before finally succumbing. Instead, we got headchomp, and I was completely thrown off from then on. It works even better in hindsight when you realize the nature of Mami's death played heavily into the show's theme.

Incidentally, the whole "when will Madoka contract?" line of reasoning is another effective use of misdirection. In hindsight, her apprehension to committing to what amounts to a Faustian bargain is completely understandable. But we never considered that as it was airing because this is a *magical girl show* and well, that's how things have always been!

Basically, you don't have to be unpredictable, you just have to read your audience, and I think that was one of Madoka's greatest strengths as a narrative.

 

[Branduil]

Thinking about it, I wouldn't call most good plot twists unpredictable. I'd call them subversive. To me, a good plot twist relies on misdirection, setting up a situation where the audience is expecting A but is given B instead, with the story structured so that B was the obvious route all along, but *only* in hindsight. An even better setup is if the audience is expecting either A B or C but gets D instead.

Madoka spoilers:

Spoiler

Mami's death was a good example of this, but not because she died per se. Early character death isn't exactly a new thing in fiction and heck, it's played out to death even in Madoka's own subgenre. Episode 3 established all the recognizable cues that Mami likely wasn't going to survive and did everything short of flashing a giant neon sign at you. But see, that was part of the misdirection. What I was expecting was for Mami to get fatally injured. She'd be down for he count, Madoka/Homura/whatever would kill the monster, and Mami would probably lament her carelessness as her friends watched on crying before finally succumbing. Instead, we got headchomp, and I was completely thrown off from then on. It works even better in hindsight when you realize the nature of Mami's death played heavily into the show's theme.

Incidentally, the whole "when will Madoka contract?" line of reasoning is another effective use of misdirection. In hindsight, her apprehension to committing to what amounts to a Faustian bargain is completely understandable. But we never considered that as it was airing because this is a *magical girl show* and well, that's how things have always been!

Basically, you don't have to be unpredictable, you just have to read your audience, and I think that was one of Madoka's greatest strengths as a narrative.

The most important thing is that plot twists are not random. Everything in the story has to happen for a reason.

 

[cajunator]

I'm guessing it's probably a bad thing I haven't watched Madoka Magica yet, given how much I've seen it talked about in here... I should rectify this tomorrow.

Its very, very good.
In my top ten.
The only criticism I have is that the outcome was a bit predictable.
However as Ducky said, Urobuchi writes pulp so Im guessing it was intentional.

 

[Branduil]

Tarantino has been bashed repeatedly over the head about that. Yes he relishes in it but it's also his biggest source of criticism.

It's best not to listen to people who criticize writes for mastering a particular genre. Critics gave Tolkien crap for writing a mythological epic when post-modern literature was the big thing to write. Now they just look silly.

 

[yami4ct]

One Piece 229

The city is a beauty. The grandma forever left a scar on my fragile mind.

Wow, you don't understand why, but this post made me laugh uncontrollably. You'll get it in ~40 episodes. Oh boy, this is going to be a wild ride.

 

[jman2050]

The most important thing is that plot twists are not random. Everything in the story has to happen for a reason.

Indeed. If your reaction to a plot twist is only confusion and bewilderment, something went wrong. There has to be a "wait a second, so that's why..." moment or something similar in there somewhere.

 

[PdotMichael]

Which is why I agreed that the case could made for anything. And I could see their being a case of long dialogue porn in Fate/Zero.

But in general Madoka really dwells on magical girls get fucked up. Let's face it the series doesn't really get any attention until bad things happen and they keep happening even after things change.

If K-On is the gold standard of cute girls doing cute things then Madoka would be the gold standard of bad things happen to cute girls.

Well not counting the works that focus specifically focus on heroines getting humiliated, raped and dismembered.

though Madoka was neither the first nor the most explicit show about "bad things happen to cute (magical) girls", so that can't be the only reason why Madoka is the most succesful original anime project since EVA.

 

[jman2050]

though Madoka was neither the first nor the most explicit show about "bad things happen to cute (magical) girls", so that can't be the only reason why Madoka is the most succesful original anime project since EVA.

I'd say it's one part good marketing, one part SHAFT, two parts 'right place, right time', and six parts it just being a really good show.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

Madoka Spoilers~

Madoka spoilers:

Spoiler

Incidentally, the whole "when will Madoka contract?" line of reasoning is another effective use of misdirection. In hindsight, her apprehension to committing to what amounts to a Faustian bargain is completely understandable. But we never considered that as it was airing because this is a *magical girl show* and well, that's how things have always been!

This is actually something that I thought was pretty obvious from very early on in the series given Madoka's role. I don't understand why people's jimmies were getting so thoroughly rustled by

Spoiler

Madoka not contracting.

I mean, half the reason Sayaka existed was so that

Spoiler

someone could become meguca since Madoka clearly wasn't.

I don't mean this in a "yeah I called it :smugface:" way, but in a "a year later, my balls are still chuffed from having to listen to people whine about

Spoiler

Madoka not contracting

" kind of way.

 

[Risette]

I'd say it's one part good marketing, one part SHAFT, two parts 'right place, right time', and six parts it just being a really good show.

All parts Aniplex marketing machine.

 

[jman2050]

All parts Aniplex marketing machine.

You've lost. Admit defeat. Go home and be a family man, you cannot defeat shenglong, take your pick.

 

[Risette]

You've lost. Admit defeat. Go home and be a family man, you cannot defeat shenglong, take your pick.

Can I credit feed

 

[jman2050]

Can I credit feed

What would Alex Kierkegaard do?

 

[Risette]

What would Alex Kierkegaard do?

Probably not credit feed

Spoiler

and then quote Nietzsche for some reason

 

[Regulus Tera]

I'd say it's one part good marketing, one part SHAFT, two parts 'right place, right time', and six parts it just being a really good show.

The bolded is generally true for everything.

 

[Dresden]

from the new world - 01

Exceptionally strong stuff. Fall is off to a great start with shows like this one.

Everything just comes together well. It's a project that seems to be handled with both respect and confidence, resulting in something quite accomplished. Moody, lingering cuts compliment the fitting sound design, and the episode covers a complex issue pretty damn gracefully, with intimations of horror edging into every nonchalant conversation. I'm excited to see where it goes.

 

[Branduil]

from the new world - 01

Exceptionally strong stuff. Fall is off to a great start with shows like this one.

Everything just comes together well. It's a project that seems to be handled with both respect and confidence, resulting in something quite accomplished. Moody, lingering cuts compliment the fitting sound design, and the episode covers a complex issue pretty damn gracefully, with intimations of horror edging into every nonchalant conversation. I'm excited to see where it goes.

But what does Kotaku think about it?

 

[sleepykyo]

though Madoka was neither the first nor the most explicit show about "bad things happen to cute (magical) girls", so that can't be the only reason why Madoka is the most succesful original anime project since EVA.

Code Geass isn't an original anime project?

 

[Jarmel]

But what does Kotaku think about it?

You make it seem like they would watch the show in the first place.

 

[Dresden]

You make it seem like they would watch the show in the first place.

Kotaku is into intelligent anime, so SSY is probably a good fit for them.

 

[PdotMichael]

Code Geass isn't an original anime project?

Madoka beats Code Geass in the same timeframe and compared to the different formats (Madoka 12 episodes vs 2x25ep animes + OVAs) quite easily, yes.

 

[Solune]

I actually like Nia. Her pupils are awesome.

Now all I can hear is Nia saying kininarimasu.

 

[Branduil]

Nia wishes she could have half the character of Chitanda.

 

[Regulus Tera]

I actually like Nia. Her pupils are awesome.

She is mai one true waifu. Taiga be damned.

Nia wishes she could have half the character of Chitanda.

*puts Branduil on the list*

 

[Branduil]

*puts Branduil on the list*

Come at me bro.

 

[Kagami]

More over, 'tragedy porn' is a very popular genre in light novels/anime/whatever. It's very "in". A number of extremely popular works have it as a key theme.

 

[yami4ct]

Tsuritama

Well, that was fun. Great mix of comedy and heart. Characters are lovable to the end. The lats 2 episodes sadly weren't my favorite, though. They weren't bad at all, I just feel Tsuritama was best in its quiet moments. The last two episodes were very action oriented and just weren't as fun. I will admit, the action in those last couple episodes was awesome. Still, very funny and a great end to a great series.

 

[kayos90]

Nia wishes she could have half the character of Chitanda.

Wait... What? No way...

 

[Uchip]

Wait... What? No way...

you're right
they're both just eyes