• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Fear of Diversity Made People More Likely to Vote Trump (The Nation)

Status
Not open for further replies.
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
The patterns arent the same for the two groups. (how did you not see this data) Liberals go to liberal AND moderate sources. Conservatives stay in their bubble. The two sides do NOT behave the same.

...you realise this undermines your argument even more, right? If conservatives are forming bubbles through the internet even more than liberals do, then your argument that conservatives have become more extreme because they're being exposed to minority culture for the first time is even weaker.
 
And this is the reason why the losers who still cling to Bernie are fucking idiots. At this point, the solution seems to just overwhelm racism with sheer numbers and demographic changes. Basically wait for the old racist to literally die out of old age.

You don't actually need to "overwhelm" racism within the context of the presidential election, because people who voted for Clinton and non-voters are far more numerous than Trump voters. Edit: So it's not that a stronger economic platform will "stop racism" or whatever, but get people more motivated to vote (and of course, a likable candidate helps). Trump voters would still be worrisome, but they wouldn't have the power they have now. And "waiting for people to die" isn't an actual political strategy.
 
Because the GOP nominated a white nationalist.

Bunch of rural whites got real excited about that, while metropolitan ones were disgusted.
There have been plenty of other options in the past, why didn't George Wallace or Pat Buchanan or Newt Gingrich become president if the only successful ingredient to winning was being super racist?

Or hell why were none of them as successful as Ross Perot, who had basically zero institutional support and got 18% of the vote. That's more than Wallace got while fueled by whitelash from the Civil Rights Act!
 

kirblar

Member
This is a circular argument. Why are these people racist now? Because there was a successful white nationalist candidate. Why is there a successful white nationalist candidate? Because these people are racist now.

White nationalist candidates have run for elections before without winning. Why did this specific one win where others failed?
No it's not. You're pretending you asked a different question than I answered, then are ignoring my earlier post that answers your new question. The reason people switched heavily is because a White Nationalist was nominated. This turned off metropolitan Rs and got rural Rs real excited. This White Nationalist was nominated because:
Because the world has changed and people in these monolithic white rural areas are being expoaed to far more nonwhite individuals and cultures than they ever were before the rise of cable and the internet. They have never developed a way to adequately handle how to react to people who arent like them, and so the prospect of dealing with the other terrifies them.
These people were always racist. This process started with the southern strategy w/ Nixon and the "Reagan Democrats", and technological evolution. and the nationalization of politics led to this.
...you realise this undermines your argument even more, right? If conservatives are forming bubbles through the internet even more than liberals do, then your argument that conservatives have become more extreme because they're being exposed to minority culture for the first time is even weaker.
No, it doesn't. Especially not when Fox News is spouting out "OBAMA IS LETTING TERRORISTS IN", "ILLEGALS ARE DRAINING THE SYSTEM AND TAKING YOUR MONEY", etc.
 
This is a circular argument. Why are these people racist now? Because there was a successful white nationalist candidate. Why is there a successful white nationalist candidate? Because these people are racist now.

White nationalist candidates have run for elections before without winning. Why did this specific one win where others failed?
Just because they weren't racist against one person or group of people ('one of the good guys') doesn't excuse thier racism for another group (in this case, immigrants) . They were always racists and voting for Obama one time or another made them feel like 'racism is over'. It's a well documented effect. Reagan Democrats are a thing, you know.
 
Time marches on. White hegemony is ending. These foolish souls believe that others will subject them to the same discrimination they doled out when their "team" was in power. They have a severe lack of empathy, and an excess of fear. They can scream and moan all they want, a white majority America is not the future.
 

wildfire

Banned
...you realise this undermines your argument even more, right? If conservatives are forming bubbles through the internet even more than liberals do, then your argument that conservatives have become more extreme because they're being exposed to minority culture for the first time is even weaker.

You're derailing yourself with this post 151. Go back to what you were doing better with post 149. These people did vote for Obama so why are switching?


I would assume for now that Obama did represent that their concerns were overblown but they still got fucked with the economy so they switched. Obama somehow directly addressed their anxieties about ethnic groups sharing a place with them.
 

kirblar

Member
There have been plenty of other options in the past, why didn't George Wallace or Pat Buchanan or Newt Gingrich become president if the only successful ingredient to winning was being super racist?

Or hell why were none of them as successful as Ross Perot, who had basically zero institutional support and got 18% of the vote. That's more than Wallace got while fueled by whitelash from the Civil Rights Act!
Because Fox News hadn't existed for as long and we didn't get 8 years of them freaking out because of a black president.

American politics is hugely reactionary.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
No it's not. You're pretending you asked a different question than I answered, then are ignoring my earlier post that answers your new question. The reason people switched heavily is because a White Nationalist was nominated. This turned off metropolitan Rs and got rural Rs real excited. This White Nationalist was nominated because:

These people were always racist. This process started with the southern strategy w/ Nixon and the "Reagan Democrats", and technological evolution. and the nationalization of politics led to this.

Your argument doesn't follow. Here's my understanding of your argument:

1) There is a group of people in America who always are and always have been racist.
2) These people nominated a white nationalist in the Republican primaries.
3) This white nationalist then radicalised people who were previously not racist, causing them to vote for him in the presidential election.

Here's the problems with it.

a) White nationalists have run before in the Republican primaries. They didn't win. What made Trump different?
b) White nationalists have run in the presidential elections before. They didn't radicalise people who were previously not racist on anywhere near the scale Trump did. What made Trump different?

You have a 'sort-of' response to b). It runs:

1) Isolated cultures become radicalised when exposed to new cultures.
2) The internet exposes isolated cultures to new cultures in a way that didn't happen pre-internet.

But I've pointed out that conservatives aren't being exposed to other cultures via the internet. They're firmly staying in their bubble, and remaining encapsulated in their own culture, the same culture they've always been in. So your current response to b) just doesn't work.
 
Because Fox News hadn't existed for as long and we didn't get 8 years of them freaking out because of a black president.

American politics is hugely reactionary.
Why would people who voted for Obama twice be freaking out about him if he's "one of the good ones." He still polls really well in those areas.

And I hardly think the massive dismantling of Jim Crow and other racist systems as undertaken by the New Dealers would make for something less reactionary than Obama. Shouldn't George Wallace have been president if all these places cared only about white nationalism?

I mean the south did freak out and vote for Wallace! He got like 60% of the vote in a bunch of states! But that doesn't translate into him getting low %'s of the vote in places like Minnesota, if they were always just racist. I mean shouldn't they have had backlash to their senators who voted for the Civil Rights Act?
 

wildfire

Banned
Just because they weren't racist against one person or group of people ('one of the good guys') doesn't excuse thier racism for another group (in this case, immigrants) . They were always racists and voting for Obama one time or another made them feel like 'racism is over'. It's a well documented effect. Reagan Democrats are a thing, you know.

This is a fair point. Trump didn't really go after blacks as much as Muslims and Mexicans so those who voted for Trump after switching from Obama may be more accepting of Black people in general. It would be interesting to see study examine if a racism matrix could explain the swings in other elections when various dog whistles are used against specific ethnic groups.
 

kirblar

Member
Your argument doesn't follow. Here's my understanding of your argument:

1) There is a group of people in America who always are and always have been racist.
2) These people nominated a white nationalist in the Republican primaries.
3) This white nationalist then radicalised people who were previously not racist, causing them to vote for him in the presidential election.

Here's the problems with it.

1) White nationalists have run before in the Republican primaries. They didn't win. What made Trump different?
2) White nationalists have run in the presidential elections before. They didn't radicalise people who were previously not racist on anywhere near the scale Trump did. What made Trump different?
a) That's not my argument. He wasn't radicalizing anyone, these people were already radicalized. #3 is off base. What he did was excite people who had never seen someone openly embrace this shit before.

b) Why don't you come out and say what your actual damn opinion is, rather than "just asking questions" ad nauseum while being unwilling to actually posit your own thoughts?
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Just because they weren't racist against one person or group of people ('one of the good guys') doesn't excuse thier racism for another group (in this case, immigrants) . They were always racists and voting for Obama one time or another made them feel like 'racism is over'. It's a well documented effect. Reagan Democrats are a thing, you know.

Explaining their racism is not the same as excusing it. It's useful to know how poverty feeds into likelihood to commit crime as a means to combating crime in the future. That doesn't entailing excusing poor criminals.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
a) That's not my argument. He wasn't radicalizing anyone, these people were already radicalized. #3 is off base. What he did was excite people who had never seen someone openly embrace this shit before.

But they very definitely have seen candidates like Trump before. Bonen has already given you several examples, which you've studiously ignored.

b) Why don't you come out and say what your actual damn opinion is, rather than "just asking questions" ad nauseum while being unwilling to actually posit your own thoughts?

 

kirblar

Member
You're not our teacher.
Why would people who voted for Obama twice be freaking out about him if he's "one of the good ones." He still polls really well in those areas.

And I hardly think the massive dismantling of Jim Crow and other racist systems as undertaken by the New Dealers would make for something less reactionary than Obama. Shouldn't George Wallace have been president if all these places cared only about white nationalism?

I mean the south did freak out and vote for Wallace! He got like 60% of the vote in a bunch of states! But that doesn't translate into him getting low %'s of the vote in places like Minnesota, if they were always just racist. I mean shouldn't they have had backlash to their senators who voted for the Civil Rights Act?
Obama is "one of the good ones." Look at that Democracy Corps memo w/ the focus group. They're upset Obama didn't "end racism."

Politics was not nationalized like it was today. You have a rep from Iowa, a union state, with a confederate flag on his desk. That's not an accident- rural areas nationwide are voting in similar patterns.
 

Boney

Banned
It's still a non-answer. Why are people more motivated to vote for racist reasons now than they have been in the past?
Because the flames have been stoked under uncertain times.

I'm copy pasting my response from the other thread.
I missed this post, I think there's a misrepresentation when it comes to people like who advocate for radical changes needed to overcome different social ills.

[quote]I've advocated that trying to separate the economic with the racial tensions through perceived or lived experiences is impossible. People tout exit booth polls with "economy" being the predominant reason for people voting on her, and with Trump it was immigration. The Trump campaign linked depressed economics with illegal immigrants, chinese labor or (minority) crime rates. Regardless of how bogus his claims are, it has a significant impact in shaping reality around people. It can be nasty and hateful and not even the most passive forms of discrimination need to be tolerated, but at the same time one also has to shape policy to curb out toxic masculinity.

Similarily, I won't ever condone people committing [violent] crimes. But I understand the vicious cycle that the criminal justice system is responsible of, which aggressively attacks people with low income, overwhelmingly draining economic and social resources from their homes and I'll denounce this system not the singular criminal who is product of an environment.[/quote]

I don't think the study has the right tools to properly identify the confounding variable of "economic anxiety" through the data collection process. Which is why when dealing with collinearity, appropiate qualitative analysis needs to complement the studies.

Which brings me to my next point. Karl Polanyi in The Great Transformation (1944) dedicated the last chapter of his book to the destructive appropriation of production in fascism. His analysis on how it is only when the decaying structures are apparent to the people is when the mass person can support these movements.

[quote=]
“[T]he moment would come when both the economic and the political systems were threatened by complete paralysis. Fear would grip the people, and leadership would be thrust upon those who offered an easy way out at whatever ultimate price. The time was ripe for the fascist solution. (p. 236)
If ever there was a political movement that responded to the needs of an objective situation and was not a result of fortuitous causes it was fascism. At the same time, the degenerative character of the fascist solution was evident. It offered an escape from an institutional deadlock which was essentially alike in a large number of countries, and yet, if the remedy were tried, it would everywhere produce sickness unto death. That is the manner in which civilizations perish.
The fascist solution of the impasse reached by liberal capitalism can be described as a reform of market economy achieved at the price of the extirpation of all democratic institutions, both in the industrial and in the political realm. The economic system which was in peril of disruption would thus be revitalized, while the people themselves were subjected to a re-education designed to denaturalize the individual and make him unable to function as the responsible unit of the body politic. This re-education, comprising the tenets of a political religion that denied the idea of the brotherhood of man in all its forms, was achieved through an act of mass conversion enforced against recalcitrants by scientific methods of [mental] torture.
The appearance of such a movement in the industrial countries of the globe, and even in a number of only slightly industrialized ones, should never have been ascribed to local causes, national mentalities, or historical backgrounds as was so consistently done by contemporaries.(237)
In fact, there was no type of background— of religious, cultural, or national tradition—that made a country immune to fascism, once the conditions for its emergence were given.
Moreover, there was a striking lack of relationship between its material and numerical strength and its political effectiveness. The very term “movement” was misleading since it implied some kind of enrollment or personal participation of large numbers. If anything was characteristic of fascism it was its independence of such popular manifestations. Though usually aiming at a mass following, its potential strength was reckoned not by the numbers of its adherents but by the influence of the persons in high position whose good will the fascist leaders possessed, and whose influence in the community could be counted upon to shelter them from the consequences of an abortive revolt, thus taking the risks out of revolution.
A country approaching the fascist phase showed symptoms among which the existence of a fascist movement proper was not necessarily one. At least as important signs were the spread of irrationalistic philosophies, racialist esthetics, anticapitalistic demagogy, heterodox currency views, criticism of the party system, widespread disparagement of the “regime,” or whatever was the name given to the existing democratic set-up… In no case was an actual revolution against constituted authority launched; fascist tactics were invariably those of a sham rebellion arranged with the tacit approval of the authorities who pretended to have been overwhelmed by force. (238)
Fascism was an ever given political possibility, an almost instantaneous emotional reaction in every industrial community since the 1930’s. One may call it a “move” in preference to a “movement” to indicate the impersonal nature of the crisis the symptoms of which were frequently vague and ambiguous. People often did not feel sure whether a political speech or a play, a sermon or a public parade, a metaphysics or an artistic fashion, a poem or a party program was fascist or not. There were no accepted criteria of fascism, nor did it possess conventional tenets. Yet one significant feature of all its organized forms was the abruptness with which they appeared and faded out again, only to burst forth with violence after an indefinite period of latency. All this fits into the picture of a social force that waxed and waned according to the objective situation.
What we termed, for short, “fascist situation” was no other than the typical occasion of easy and complete fascist victories. All at once, the tremendous industrial and political organizations of labor and of other devoted upholders of constitutional freedom would melt away, and minute fascist forces would brush aside what seemed until then the overwhelming strength of democratic governments, parties, trade unions. If a “revolutionary situation” is characterized by the psychological and moral disintegration of all forces of resistance to the point where a handful of scantily armed rebels were enabled to storm the supposedly impregnable strongholds of reaction, then the “fascist situation” was its complete parallel except for the fact that here the bulwarks of democracy and constitutional liberties were stormed and their defenses found wanting in the same spectacular fashion. (239)
The nascent fascist movement put itself almost everywhere into the service of the national issue; it could hardly have survived without this “pick-up” job.
Yet, it used this issue only as a stepping stone; at other times it struck the pacifist and isolationist note…
In its struggle for political power fascism is entirely free to disregard or to use local issues, at will. Its aim transcends the political and economic framework: it is social. It puts a political religion into the service of a degenerative process. In its rise it excludes only a very few emotions from its orchestra; yet once victorious it bars from the band wagon all but a very small group of motivations, though again extremely characteristic ones. Unless we distinguish closely between this pseudo intolerance on the road to power and the genuine intolerance in power, we can hardly hope to understand the subtle but decisive difference between the sham-nationalism of some fascist movements during the revolution, and the specifically imperialistic nonnationalism which they developed after the revolution. (241)
In reality, the part played by fascism was determined by one factor: the condition of the market system.
During the period 1917-23 governments occasionally sought fascist help to restore law and order: no more was needed to set the market system going. Fascism remained undeveloped.
In the period 1924-29, when the restoration of the market system seemed ensured, fascism faded out as a political force altogether.
After 1930 market economy was in a general crisis. Within a few years fascism was a world power. (242)
In 1924 and after, Europe and the United States were the scene of a boisterous boom that drowned all concern for the soundness of the market system. Capitalism was proclaimed restored…
It was in the third period—after 1929—that the true significance of fascism became apparent. The deadlock of the market system was evident. Until then fascism had been hardly more than a trait in Italy’s authoritarian government, which otherwise differed but little from those of a more traditional type. It now emerged as an alternative solution of the problem of an industrial society. (243)
Nineteenth Century civilization was not destroyed by the external or internal attack of barbarians; its vitality was not sapped by the devastations of World War I nor by the revolt of a socialist proletariat or a fascist lower middle class. Its failure was not the outcome of some alleged laws of economics such as that of the falling rate of profit or of underconsumption or overproduction. It disintegrated as the result of an entirely different set of causes: the measures which society adopted in order not to be, in its turn, annihilated by the action of the self-regulating market. Apart from exceptional circumstances such as existed in North America in the age of the open frontier, the conflict between the market and the elementary requirements of an organized social life provided the century with its dynamics and produced the typical strains and stresses which ultimately destroyed that society. External wars merely hastened its destruction…
The true criticism of market society is not that it was based on economics—in a sense, every and any society must be based on it—but that its economy was based on self-interest. Such an organization of economic life is entirely unnatural, in the strictly empirical sense of exceptional. Nineteenth century thinkers assumed that in his economic activity man strove for profit, that his materialistic propensities would induce him to choose the lesser instead of the greater effort and to expect payment for his labor; in short, that in his economic activity he would tend to abide by what they described as economic rationality, and that all contrary behavior was the result of outside interference. It followed that markets were natural institutions, that they would spontaneously arise if only men were let alone. Thus, nothing could be more normal than an economic system consisting of markets and under the sole control of market prices, and a human society based on such markets appeared, therefore, as the goal of all progress. (249)
Economic history reveals that the emergence of national markets was in no way the result of the gradual and spontaneous emancipation of the economic sphere from governmental control. On the contrary, the market has been the outcome of a conscious and often violent intervention on the part of government which imposed the market organization on society for noneconomic ends. And the self-regulating market of the nineteenth century turns out on closer inspection to be radically different from even its immediate predecessor in that it relied for its regulation on economic self-interest. The congenital weakness of nineteenth century society was not that it was industrial but that it was a market society. Industrial civilization will continue to exist when the Utopian experiment of a self-regulating market will be no more than a memory. (250)
The passing of market-economy can become the beginning of an era of unprecedented freedom. Juridical and actual freedom can be made wider and more general than ever before; regulation and control can achieve freedom not only for the few, but for all. Freedom not as an appurtenance of privilege, tainted at the source, but as a prescriptive right extending far beyond the narrow confines of the political sphere into the intimate organization of society itself. Thus will old freedoms and civic rights be added to the fund of new freedom generated by the leisure and security that industrial society offers to all. Such a society can afford to be both just and free.
Yet we find the path blocked by a moral obstacle. Planning and control are being attacked as a denial of freedom. Free enterprise and private ownership are declared to be essentials of freedom. No society built on other foundations is said to deserve to be called free. The freedom that regulation creates is denounced as unfreedom; the justice, liberty and welfare it offers are decried as a camouflage of slavery. (256)
With the liberal the idea of freedom thus degenerates into a mere advocacy of free enterprise—which is today reduced to a fiction by the hard reality of giant trusts and princely monopolies. This means the fullness of freedom for those whose income, leisure and security need no enhancing, and a mere pittance of liberty for the people, who may in vain attempt to make use of their democratic rights to gain shelter from the power of the owners of property. Nor is that all. Nowhere did the liberals in fact succeed in re-establishing free enterprise, which was doomed to fail for intrinsic reasons. It was as a result of their efforts that big business was installed in several European countries and, incidentally, also various brands of fascism, as in Austria. Planning, regulation and control, which they wanted to see banned as dangers to freedom, were then employed by the confessed enemies of freedom to abolish it altogether. Yet the victory of fascism was made practically unavoidable by the liberals’ obstruction of any reform involving planning, regulation, or control.
Freedom’s utter frustration in fascism is, indeed, the inevitable result of the liberal philosophy, which claims that power and compulsion are evil, that freedom demands their absence from a human community. No such thing is possible; in a complex society this becomes apparent. This leaves no alternative but either to remain faithful to an illusionary idea of freedom and deny the reality of society, or to accept that reality and reject the idea of freedom. The first is the liberal’s conclusion; the latter the fascist’s. (257)
Uncomplaining acceptance of the reality of society gives man indomitable courage and strength to remove all removable injustice and unfreedom. As long as he is true to his task of creating more abundant freedom for all, he need not fear that either power or plan­ning will turn against him and destroy the freedom he is building by their instrumentality. This is the meaning of freedom in a complex society; it gives us all the certainty that we need. (Polanyi 1944: 236-258; bold emphasises are mine, italics by the author)[/quote]
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Politics was not nationalized like it was today. You have a rep from Iowa, a union state, with a confederate flag on his desk. That's not an accident- rural areas nationwide are voting in similar patterns.

When politics nationalised, why did the voting pattern of the rural South come to predominate in the rural North, instead of vice versa?
 
Time marches on. White hegemony is ending. These foolish souls believe that others will subject them to the same discrimination they doled out when their "team" was in power. They have a severe lack of empathy, and an excess of fear. They can scream and moan all they want, a white majority America is not the future.
Others have used this line of reasoning for decades yet history tells otherwise. There will always be oppression of groups and racism unless there is an educated and sympathetic public.
 
You're not our teacher.

Obama is "one of the good ones." Look at that Democracy Corps memo w/ the focus group. They're upset Obama didn't "end racism."

Politics was not nationalized like it was today. You have a rep from Iowa, a union state, with a confederate flag on his desk. That's not an accident- rural areas nationwide are voting in similar patterns.
The president is a pretty national position who would be covered by national news. Do you think they didn't know who George Wallace was? Do you think these people who were always radical white nationalists by and large supported the guy who literally lead the effort to force the Democrats into supporting civil rights at the expense of losing the south as far back as the 40's (Humphrey, in case that isn't clear) over the overt white nationalist? I mean they'd experienced the past 20 years of radical social change as brought about by the New Dealers, you'd think they knew what they were getting into.

And even that aside, if all politics used to be local, shouldn't they have tried to cast out such disgustingly pro-Civil Rights figures like Humphrey after his support for civil rights? Shouldn't they have pushed him out because they were always so committed to white nationalism? Humphrey literally wrote the Civil Rights Act, whipped the votes for it, and helped silence the delegation from the south at the '48 Democratic convention in order to make support for civil rights an important part of the Democratic plank, which literally cost Truman four states in the south to Strom Thurmond! If they were always so pro-white nationalism, shouldn't they have exiled Humphrey at that point?
 
It's the fear of becoming a minority. They see what people of color go through and they want to hold onto their power
Never considered the idea that much of the white racial fear of being a minority may be linked to a fear of being treated like minorities are currently or were historically treated but it seems reasonable. I've always contended that white male masculinity and its historical roots in American exceptionalism was the bigger issue related to continued resentment.

Basically the anxiety that in an increasingly post-industrial workplace, traditional forms of expressing masculinity are disappearing and in their place we are seeing more equal forms of representation. For an individual that identifies with traditional forms of maleness, they may feel that without such an identity they will not have a place in a modern globalized world.

Of course there's a lot of nuance into the white male identity crisis but I do feel it is the major force that is upending our progress towards globalization.
 

kirblar

Member
The president is a pretty national position who would be covered by national news. Do you think they didn't know who George Wallace was? Do you think these people who were always radical white nationalists by and large supported the guy who literally lead the effort to force the Democrats into supporting civil rights at the expense of losing the south as far back as the 40's (Humphrey, in case that isn't clear) over the overt white nationalist? I mean they'd experienced the past 20 years of radical social change as brought about by the New Dealers, you'd think they knew what they were getting into.

And even that aside, if all politics used to be local, shouldn't they have tried to cast out such disgustingly pro-Civil Rights figures like Humphrey after his support for civil rights? Shouldn't they have pushed him out because they were always so committed to white nationalism? Humphrey literally wrote the Civil Rights Act, whipped the votes for it, and helped silence the delegation from the south at the '48 Democratic convention in order to make support for civil rights an important part of the Democratic plank, which literally cost Truman four states in the south to Strom Thurmond! If they were always so pro-white nationalism, shouldn't they have exiled Humphrey at that point?
Because a series nationwide propaganda channel are totally the same thing as a twice-daily local newspaper in terms of the effect they have on shaping people's views, amirite?

You keep crediting the New Deal with mass social change/civil rights, but that didn't really happen until LBJ. Yes, there were some advancements, but the New Deal itself was deliberately exclusionary to black Americans and the process of the D/R parties flipping on civil rights was a slow one that culminated w/ LBJ and led to rural whites abandoning the Dems as politics started to be more and more nationalized.

You keep acting as though these states of the American electorate are representative of how today's electorate would behave, when you really need to be looking at the way in which that electorate has changed. Pointing out party behavior in the '40s is useless - you need to look at how things changed to figure out where they're going. And post-LBJ, we've had a tectonic shift occurring in US politics where the Dems have struggled to maintain power and implement social programs.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Just because they weren't racist against one person or group of people ('one of the good guys') doesn't excuse thier racism for another group (in this case, immigrants) . They were always racists and voting for Obama one time or another made them feel like 'racism is over'. It's a well documented effect. Reagan Democrats are a thing, you know.

Someone on Twitter was talking about this also: hypocrisy doesn't just apply to virtue. People can be hypocritical by allowing for an exception in their bigoted beliefs just as much as they can be hypocritical for allowing for an exception in their "progressive" beliefs
 

Lumination

'enry 'ollins
I see shades of this being echoed in alt-right talking points. Essentially, these people don't want to become a minority, an other, in their own country. What confuses the shit out of me is their ability to think that and STILL argue that racism doesn't exist. Also, rather than eradicating the idea that there is an "other", they would rather just scramble to eradicate the others.
 
I see shades of this being echoed in alt-right talking points. Essentially, these people don't want to become a minority, an other, in their own country. What confuses the shit out of me is their ability to think that and STILL argue that racism doesn't exist. Also, rather than eradicating the idea that there is an "other", they would rather just scramble to eradicate the others.

They know their time is ending soon. So they're entrenching. Anything to remain in power.
 
Because a series nationwide propaganda channel are totally the same thing as a twice-daily local newspaper in terms of the effect they have on shaping people's views, amirite?

You keep crediting the New Deal with mass social change/civil rights, but that didn't really happen until LBJ. Yes, there were some advancements, but the New Deal itself was deliberately exclusionary to black Americans and the process of the D/R parties flipping on civil rights was a slow one that culminated w/ LBJ and led to rural whites abandoning the Dems as politics started to be more and more nationalized.

You keep acting as though these states of the American electorate are representative of how today's electorate would behave, when you really need to be looking at the way in which that electorate has changed. Pointing out party behavior in the '40s is useless - you need to look at how things changed to figure out where they're going. And post-LBJ, we've had a tectonic shift occurring in US politics where the Dems have struggled to maintain power and implement social programs.
The New Dealers struggled to keep the south on board as early as 1948 because of their support for civil rights, where Truman lost all of the Deep South except Georgia because of the party's support for civil rights at the convention and Truman's desegregating of the military. Kennedy lost Alabama and Mississippi to Byrd for his support of civil rights and also failed to win Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia, and Florida in 1960, so much for the Solid South! In 1964 LBJ won every state outside of the Deep South. They were definitely reacting to what the national politics were at the time! Why didn't the Iron Range of Minnesota seem to care, and in fact, continue to enable candidates who would push this agenda they so loathe.

And while the New Deal has some huge failures of discrimination, it also was a large enough factor of uplift that northern black voters began to support the Democrats and were part of the unstoppable coalition. You also seem to be conflating me saying New Dealers with the New Deal, the former are the set of politicians acting in the Roosevelt era and under Roosevelt-esque politics with the specific set of programs made by FDR. That said, the FDR and Truman put 8/9ths of the Justices who ruled on Brown V Board of Education, Roosevelt ended federal discriminatory hiring with respect to race, Truman desegregated the military. People who would be upset about civil rights improvements had plenty of ammunition to oppose them before 1968 (and they did, as we can see in 48, 60, 64, 68).

Is your argument that something changed with these communities (ie, they became more racist) or that they were always so racist they just needed a white nationalist to unlock them?
 

wildfire

Banned
They know their time is ending soon. So they're entrenching. Anything to remain in power.

The majority of them don't have much power to speak of which is why they rankle at the thought of white privilege applying to them because they synonymize privilege with wealth and status but not social circles.
 

kirblar

Member
The New Dealers struggled to keep the south on board as early as 1948 because of their support for civil rights, where Truman lost all of the Deep South except Georgia because of the party's support for civil rights at the convention and Truman's desegregating of the military. Kennedy lost Alabama and Mississippi to Byrd for his support of civil rights and also failed to win Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia, and Florida in 1960, so much for the Solid South! In 1964 LBJ won every state outside of the Deep South. They were definitely reacting to what the national politics were at the time! Why didn't the Iron Range of Minnesota seem to care, and in fact, continue to enable candidates who would push this agenda they so loathe.

And while the New Deal has some huge failures of discrimination, it also was a large enough factor of uplift that northern black voters began to support the Democrats and were part of the unstoppable coalition. You also seem to be conflating me saying New Dealers with the New Deal, the former are the set of politicians acting in the Roosevelt era and under Roosevelt-esque politics with the specific set of programs made by FDR. That said, the FDR and Truman put 8/9ths of the Justices who ruled on Brown V Board of Education, Roosevelt ended federal discriminatory hiring with respect to race, Truman desegregated the military. People who would be upset about civil rights improvements had plenty of ammunition to oppose them before 1968 (and they did, as we can see in 48, 60, 64, 68).

Is your argument that something changed with these communities (ie, they became more racist) or that they were always so racist they just needed a white nationalist to unlock them?
Both? I think they both got more racist and became unified under a singular ideology (The Church of Fox News) to the point where they were primed for a candidate like Trump. Rural areas were always voting more conservative than Urban ones, that pattern's as old as time itself. But the electorate as a whole wasn't polarized to this degree along party lines.

The end of the Draft may have had something to do with this, as there's a good chance it helped to liberalize non-college educated white men by breaking them out of their bubble. (Unlike today's military, where you have a severe selection bias in the people signing up.)
 

pigeon

Banned
This is a circular argument. Why are these people racist now? Because there was a successful white nationalist candidate. Why is there a successful white nationalist candidate? Because these people are racist now.

White nationalist candidates have run for elections before without winning. Why did this specific one win where others failed?

Because the GOP establishment was too weak to prevent it this time.

Normally when white supremacists run they face concerted opposition from the party establishment, which helps communicate the boundaries of acceptable racism to party loyalists.

That's the primary purpose of political parties -- to provide the protective layer of oligarchs between the people and the government, as the founders intended.* Direct democracy leads to bad outcomes -- elites are supposed to filter out the bad decisions before they get to the ballot. The party decides.

In this case the GOP was too fractured for anybody to feel safe mounting a serious resistance to Trump, which allowed him to gain in strength and radicalize millions of usually only somewhat racist GOP voters.



* They didn't specifically expect parties, but they didn't really get that having the president and vice-president be former political opponents would be a problem either, so safe to say they just weren't great on the details.
 
Is your argument that something changed with these communities (ie, they became more racist) or that they were always so racist they just needed a white nationalist to unlock them?

I agree with kirblar it's both, also racism became more insidious post say Goldwater

The Lee Atwater quote is best for this:

You start out in 1954 by saying, ”Nigger, nigger, nigger." By 1968 you can't say ”nigger"—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states' rights, and all that stuff, and you're getting so abstract. Now, you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.... ”We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than ”Nigger, nigger."

That was the GOP strategy for ages, this made racism palatable again and laid the ground work, it kept racists governing alive... now in 2016 with the right guy overt racism up to maybe just before slurs is acceptable again though... So you have the collision and then unification of two groups: The always have been extremely racists who were looking for someone like them to truly inspire them (I mean this is the argument on the left that some folks don't engage politically without someone to be inspired by, same would apply to the racist right) and the now more racist who once would have say rejected a Barry Goldwater but now embrace Trump with of course the third group the spineless republicans who just pull the R lever no matter what.
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
No surprise there. i think focusing too much on winning over Trump supporters isnt as worthwhile as finding out why half the electorate isnt voting.
 

Measley

Junior Member
685f28394e2afe6e2a0aab9fd5ad06b7.jpg

That pic should automatically pop up and be the first post every time a thread like this appears.
 

Joeytj

Banned
I don't know if that was the only reason though, racial anxiety.

I guess, since the racial factor dictates even economic policy, it might be an unintended consequence that the type of economics afflicting white rural or urban America give way to the some type of racism.

I've also read a lot about how the Democratic establishment (and obviously the entire Republican one too) abandoned too much of their anti-trust roots and got too cozy with the elite class (from whichever industry) and that caused a dangerous mix of resentment towards both the economic and socially liberal class.

This feels like trying to find a unifying theory to the entire universe between general relativity and quantum physics, I know, but I've honestly read more convincing theories from Matt Stoller, for example, about what's wrong with the Democratic Party than just articles like that try to prove it was all just racism. Mostly because there are examples of Democrats winning in deep red states or counties lately thanks to focusing on populist issues without abandoning so-called socially liberal views.
 
I don't know if that was the only reason though, racial anxiety.

I guess, since the racial factor dictates even economic policy, it might be an unintended consequence that the type of economics afflicting white rural or urban America give way to the some type of racism.

I've also read a lot about how the Democratic establishment (and obviously the entire Republican one too) abandoned too much of their anti-trust roots and got too cozy with the elite class (from whichever industry) and that caused a dangerous mix of resentment towards both the economic and socially liberal class.

This feels like trying to find a unifying theory to the entire universe between general relativity and quantum physics, I know, but I've honestly read more convincing theories from Matt Stoller, for example, about what's wrong with the Democratic Party than just articles like that try to prove it was all just racism. Mostly because there are examples of Democrats winning in deep red states or counties lately thanks to focusing on populist issues without abandoning so-called socially liberal views.

If you notice, most of the states that 'Red State' Democrat's can still be successful are the ones with um...er...no...black people basically. North Dakota, Montana, etc. In red states with high black populations, the whites basically vote like black Democrat's.

In addition, to be blunt, it used to be a lot easier for local and state Democrat's to separate themselves from the national party. Even putting aside the relative polarization of politics in general, when you're a state rep in rural Arkansas and you've been holding on for the last couple terms, the state GOP getting to put Obama next to you as the face of the Democratic Party instead of say, John Kerry or Al Gore or even Nancy Pelosi causes some issues.

As for why Trump succeeded when other candidates failed? Because he got billions of dollars in free TV, was already a celebrity, and so on, and so forth. If somebody with the same opinions, but no money and no celebrity, while, look at Tom Tacrendo's success.

Finally, the "they voted for Obama though" argument, if you look at Twitter, there's some ancedotal data along with the Democracy Corps studies that basically, white rural and moderate Democrat's thought black people would stop complaining once Obama was elected. Since that didn't happen and Obama started speaking up more in his 2nd term, that to use a phrase, triggered them. Remember, Obama's 'honeymoon' ended in his 1st term with the whole silly Henry Louis Gates incident.
 

kirblar

Member
I don't know if that was the only reason though, racial anxiety.

I guess, since the racial factor dictates even economic policy, it might be an unintended consequence that the type of economics afflicting white rural or urban America give way to the some type of racism.

I've also read a lot about how the Democratic establishment (and obviously the entire Republican one too) abandoned too much of their anti-trust roots and got too cozy with the elite class (from whichever industry) and that caused a dangerous mix of resentment towards both the economic and socially liberal class.

This feels like trying to find a unifying theory to the entire universe between general relativity and quantum physics, I know, but I've honestly read more convincing theories from Matt Stoller, for example, about what's wrong with the Democratic Party than just articles like that try to prove it was all just racism. Mostly because there are examples of Democrats winning in deep red states or counties lately thanks to focusing on populist issues without abandoning so-called socially liberal views.
This is stat data based on survey results. This isn't about a pet theory (the author's actually been on the "push left on econ" train), it's about looking at the data you have and using that to explain it instead of trying to guess at it. And the data here is stark. The people that flipped D->R were racist. The people who were flipping R->D were not.

People who believed elites "had too much power" voted against Trump.
 

besada

Banned
But I've pointed out that conservatives aren't being exposed to other cultures via the internet. They're firmly staying in their bubble, and remaining encapsulated in their own culture, the same culture they've always been in. So your current response to b) just doesn't work.

If you went to any of these sites, you'd realize they ARE being exposed to other cultures, through the lens of white nationalism. Freerepublic, one of the heads of this hydra, regularly has commentary on culture outside their bubble, but it's already been pre-chewed and digested for them. DailyStormer does as well. Seriously, drop in on any far-right site, and part of the daily fuel is how the brown people are devaluing American culture with their hippity-hop, foreign ideas, and hijabs.

None of them are directly confronting this stuff in their home towns, but they're seeing it on the internet, being used as fodder in the cultural war.
 
If you went to any of these sites, you'd realize they ARE being exposed to other cultures, through the lens of white nationalism. Freerepublic, one of the heads of this hydra, regularly has commentary on culture outside their bubble, but it's already been pre-chewed and digested for them. DailyStormer does as well. Seriously, drop in on any far-right site, and part of the daily fuel is how the brown people are devaluing American culture with their hippity-hop, foreign ideas, and hijabs.

None of them are directly confronting this stuff in their home towns, but they're seeing it on the internet, being used as fodder in the cultural war.

Yup, they're seeing severely edited clips of the worst of non-white people. It'd be like if the only white people somebody in I don't know, Japan, saw, was clips of meth addicted hillbillies in West Virginia or actual KKK members and came to see as average among all white people.
 
If you went to any of these sites, you'd realize they ARE being exposed to other cultures, through the lens of white nationalism. Freerepublic, one of the heads of this hydra, regularly has commentary on culture outside their bubble, but it's already been pre-chewed and digested for them. DailyStormer does as well. Seriously, drop in on any far-right site, and part of the daily fuel is how the brown people are devaluing American culture with their hippity-hop, foreign ideas, and hijabs.

None of them are directly confronting this stuff in their home towns, but they're seeing it on the internet, being used as fodder in the cultural war.

This times a thousand. I followed a few pro-trump groups on fb prior to the election (and still follow Milo, check Fox, Breitbart and the equivalent Swedish sources regularly) and it was non stop propaganda which was 90% focused on perpetuating liberal strawmen, hating on BLM, feminists and scare mongering about invading muslim hordes (a lot of inaccurate shit from Europe).

Hyper partisan right wing media (social or otherwise) was what won this election.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom