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Feels bad man. Pepe the frog has been listed as a hate symbol.

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J

johnsmith

remember me
Copenap said:
99% of memes are stupid and I'm very obviously too old for them as I don't get the appeal but I especially never got the link of pepe to the alt-right (i.e. neo nazis). Like how are they using this as mascot (I do not frequent in networks where this scum posts)?
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See for yourself

http://www.adl.org/combating-hate/hate-on-display/c/pepe-the-frog.html#.V-tcgzROKnM


Also the ADL fully acknowledges not all uses are racist.

The Pepe the Frog character did not originally have racist or anti-Semitic connotations. Internet users appropriated the character and turned him into a meme, placing the frog in a variety of circumstances and saying many different things. Many variations of the meme became rather esoteric, resulting in the phenomenon of so-called "rare Pepes."

The majority of uses of Pepe the Frog have been, and continue to be, non-bigoted. However, it was inevitable that, as the meme proliferated in on-line venues such as 4chan, 8chan, and Reddit, which have many users who delight in creating racist memes and imagery, a subset of Pepe memes would come into existence that centered on racist, anti-Semitic or other bigoted themes.

In recent years, with the growth of the "alt right" segment of the white supremacist movement, a segment that draws some of its support from some of the above-mentioned Internet sites, the number of "alt right" Pepe memes has grown, a tendency exacerbated by the controversial and contentious 2016 presidential election. Though Pepe memes have many defenders, not least the character's creator, Matt Furie, who has called the alt right appropriation of the meme merely a "phase," the use of racist and bigoted versions of Pepe memes seems to be increasing, not decreasing.

However, because so many Pepe the Frog memes are not bigoted in nature, it is important to examine use of the meme only in context. The mere fact of posting a Pepe meme does not mean that someone is racist or white supremacist. However, if the meme itself is racist or anti-Semitic in nature, or if it appears in a context containing bigoted or offensive language or symbols, then it may have been used for hateful purposes.
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Z

Zukuu

Banned
Copenap said:
99% of memes are stupid and I'm very obviously too old for them as I don't get the appeal but I especially never got the link of pepe to the alt-right (i.e. neo nazis). Like how are they using this as mascot?
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They didn't. They just used the pepe-meme for some racist stuff - like it's been done million times before with other characters. Trump-smug-pepe was just a newborn popular sub-meme, because it was just fitting.

Now two things happened:
A) Trump is a bigot and is associated with the right-wing, white supremacy etc and therefore Trump-pepe is too.
B) Pepe got limelight by the news on Hillary's website reporting about it and (falsely) saying 'Pepe (as a whole) is a racist symbol'. That caught on to other news sites.

Because of that 'normies' now think that Pepe is a racist symbol, because 'look Trump-pepe!!!' or look 'a Jew Pepe'.

The only difference between any other meme and Pepe is that he got popular so people started noticing and reporting about it. The 'alt-right' started adopting it, because 'why not' and 'for the lulz'. Knowing the internet, even non-right people started feeding into that meme, because 'shit is funny'.

Just to showcase it I googled "Datboi Nazi" and to no surprise, you get results:
Dat-Boy-Negro-Congressman.png
 
I

ItWasMeantToBe19

Banned
Here's how you analyze Pepe the Frog memes:

If someone says "When the Jews talk about bringing in more Muslims" and then posts Pepe, that meets that they think that those dirty Jews are stupidly causing their own genocide because they will murdered by Muslims.

If you seem something that might be racist and it has a Pepe, it probably is.

Anyway, Pepe memes are now associated with the worst Antisemitic abuse in America since the 1940s and people should really acknowledge that.
 
M

mugwhump

Member
Yeah, I dunno. He's popular among racists, yeah, but he's also popular amongst everyone else. Pretty sure pepe is the single most widely used meme on the internet at the moment.

Though I'll be interested to see how this and pepe being written about on Hillary's site will impact his popularity.
 
M

Makai

Member
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
Here's how you analyze Pepe the Frog memes:

If someone says "When the Jews talk about bringing in more Muslims" and then posts Pepe, that meets that they think that those dirty Jews are stupidly causing their own genocide because they will murdered by Muslims.

If you seem something that might be racist and it has a Pepe, it probably is.
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Sub Pepe in for Kermit, Jackie Chan, the word 'lol', etc. Any meme can be used in a racist context.
 
Riposte

Riposte

Member
Nivash said:
People in this thread are seriously misunderstanding what the ADL list is about. It's not supposed to be some kind of list of banned symbols or something like that, it's supposed to be a list of symbols that can be used to identify white supremacist people and organisations, because not all of their symbols are as blatant as the swastika.

Because they're so stigamatized, white supremacists form a somewhat hidden subculture that rely on dog whistles and abstract symbols to identify each other. Stuff like "88" or that triforce-looking thing are part of that. They're not inherently evil or something but if they use them the right way they can broadcast their allegiance without overtly revealing it to people who aren't white supremacists.

Pepe has been co-opted as one too - when used in specific contexts. Trump Pepe is one such context, overtly racist Pepe memes obviously another, and even heavy use of ordinary Pepe memes in say an otherwise very racist twitter feed can function as one too. Does that mean you should stop using Pepe memes because they're forever taboo now? No. Just recognise that they are being used as a dog whistle as well, and be a bit careful about not accidentally coming off that way - for your own sake, if nothing else.
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Unless I'm missing some examples, the context of the alt-right's version of Pepe is not a dog whistle (and from what I've seen, alt-right twitter doesn't give a shit about hiding their scummy opinions). This context is defined by them taking the Pepe image and adding a blatant antisemitic/nazi/racist component to it. It's not even like a subversive use of a emoji with a secret meaning, it's Pepe wearing an overt costume and the costume is the point (much like God Hand 4chan mspaint comic edits have little to do with God Hand). The examples of the ADL page show this and even goes on to explain it as such by describing the context being depended on visual appearance of said component. It's a moot point to say Pepe can be used as a dog whistle when it's depended on blatant symbolism to make the connection. As such when you make a big point about it, you are either setting the ground work to judge the larger, general context based on guilt by association (as alt-righters no doubt post the vanilla version of memes on their twitter feeds just like anyone else) or you wasting your own time. In the case of the former, you are going to get into a big argument, naturally.

What the ADL wrote is actually more reasonable than what I expected from the headlines of "Pepe added to hate speech database alongside Confederate Flag, etc.", but its degree of understanding kind of makes it pointless at the same time. Pepe is racist... when there's a Confederate Flag, a Swastika, references to the holocaust, etc., because everything is racist when you put those things on it (or paired with a racist opinion). Trump Pepe or Pepe with a MAGA hat is a milder version of that (a dog whistle only insofar voting for Trump is itself a dog whistle), and this whole thing seems to have only really blown up when one of the Trump spawn used it and it seemed like a good gotcha moment.
 
M

Mechazawa

Member
Bronx-Man said:
Do people seriously not see the hundreds of alt-right shitheads using Pepe memes to say bigoted shit, or this just one of those "I'm gonna be deliberately obtuse because I can" things?
Click to expand...

The type of places you'd see that shit are also the type of places where people are wearing moe girl avatars en masse. That doesn't mean we started wholesale shoving in K-ON with the alt-right wing.

Context matters, and the way this particular meme was coopted wasn't 1:1. None of the pictures you'd see in here of the Pepe meme are what you'd generally associate with the alt-right shitheads. So you can't really blame people for getting mad that when something that they were laughing about and using just a couple of years ago, divorced from the context of literal white supremacists, ends up getting wholesale sweeped under the rig with them.

Personally I think it's supremely shitty that this is where the meme ultimately ended up, and I'm kinda salty about it. But I'm probably just gonna have to let it go. Pepe's probably not the hill I'm ready to die on.
 
B

Biske

Member
We are truly through the fucking looking glass if we are at a point where people have to defend and "take back" their memes.

Memes changing and meaning something else, is what memes do. Was only a matter of time until the racist assholes took over and started dominating the culture, which if you have ever been in a female streamers chat room or a webcam site chat room or anywhere else on the internet, turns out the internet is full of racist dickheads who hate women and just about anything that isn't classical caveman male.
 
T

Tetra-9

Member
Biske said:
We are truly through the fucking looking glass if we are at a point where people have to defend and "take back" their memes.

Memes changing and meaning something else, is what memes do. Was only a matter of time until the racist assholes took over and started dominating the culture, which if you have ever been in a female streamers chat room or a webcam site chat room or anywhere else on the internet, turns out the internet is full of racist dickheads who hate women and just about anything that isn't classical caveman male.
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And letting racists win that fight is the right thing to do? What's wrong with setting the record straight?
 
N

Nightbird

Member
Pepe might be the most intresting meme of all time.

It was a thing way back in the day (like 2008 or something like that), died, came back with a different name, started a second, more successful run, and is now classified as hate symbol because of it's popularity with racists.


And it all started with a face that someone thought was funny
 
H

hipbabboom

Huh? What did I say? Did I screw up again? :(
What a time to be alive. I hear about things getting co-opted and hipsters of the day would tell everyone how a long time ago that didn't mean what we know it to mean today. I feel like there's a handful of examples of many times in history I can come up with but this is the first time where I can actually witness one of these symbolic transitions occur and its fascinating to me.
 
B

BlastProcessing

Member
When David Duke starts regularly using something on twitter as part of his messaging, it's a pretty good hint that something's up.

To the people freaking out about this, I will try to explain what the Anti-Defamation League is doing here.

Racism is embedded deep into our society. White Supremacists and Neo Nazis constantly appropriate pre-existing symbols as a way to signal to each other in public. It's a pretty established pattern that goes back millennia, really. The KK appropriated the Cross for godsakes. Things like Thor's Hammer or the number 88 obviously have legitimate uses, but they are strong symbols to White Supremacists. If you see a dude with an 88 tattooed on his neck, odds are it's not because he was a big Michael Irvin fan.

A large part of what the ADL does is try to keep track of these symbols. It helps us all understand what White Supremacists are saying to each other. The context that these memes are used matters. All they are really trying to say is that when you come across any of the things they have listed as a hate symbol, take and extra second and look for other symbols. If you start to see a pattern then there is cause for concern. Patterns are pretty obvious, subtlety isn't really a strength with these chucklefucks.

This is just another tool in trying to identify the ever shifting face of Racism in America. Right now that face is mostly what we loosely call the Alt-Right. The term Alt-Right was coined by a White Supremacist named Richard Spencer. He came up with it in an attempt to rebrand racism. Emboldened by Donald Trump's success, he sees an opportunity in America today to take his message of white superiority mainstream.

The Alt-Right had a conference in DC this month. At it Spencer specifically called out Pepe. He said that it was important to use Pepe for messaging and recruiting to the cause. He is actively trying to make Pepe a symbol of white unity.
 
K

Krejlooc

Banned
I'll give an example of a racist dog whistle for the folks who just can't understand how Pepe is being appropriated: the word canadian.

Yes, the word canadian is commonly appropriated for racist reasons. It gets used as a not-so-subtle stand in for "black people." Examples - going to a club with many black people around and hearing someone say "This place is full of canadians" or "it's like canada in here!"

This actually happens. In those contexts, it's pretty obvious that usage of the word canada or canadian is intended to be racist. Other example of a word being appropriated this way: google is being used as a stand in for "faggot" these days.

So yeah, while you might be right that Pepe originally didn't start as an alt-right dog whistle or that there are other uses for it, you shouldn't ignore the obviousness in front of you. The alt-right is purposefully appropriating the meme.
 
S

Sora the Cat

Member
Bronx-Man said:
Do people seriously not see the hundreds of alt-right shitheads using Pepe memes to say bigoted shit, or this just one of those "I'm gonna be deliberately obtuse because I can" things?
Click to expand...

I never saw the Pepe meme used in that way, nowhere. Maybe it depends on the people you follow or where you're from. I guess if you are from the USA you'll get more stuff like that on your feed because of the elections.
 
B

Bounceounce

Member
Krejlooc said:
I'll give an example of a racist dog whistle for the folks who just can't understand how Pepe is being appropriated: the word canadian.

Yes, the word canadian is commonly appropriated for racist reasons. It gets used as a not-so-subtle stand in for "black people." Examples - going to a club with many black people around and hearing someone say "This place is full of canadians" or "it's like canada in here!"

This actually happens. In those contexts, it's pretty obvious that usage of the word canada or canadian is intended to be racist. Other example of a word being appropriated this way: google is being used as a stand in for "faggot" these days.

So yeah, while you might be right that Pepe originally didn't start as an alt-right dog whistle or that there are other uses for it, you shouldn't ignore the obviousness in front of you. The alt-right is purposefully appropriating the meme.
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They aren't appropriating a meme, they're using a meme, no one owns it.
It's not like 4chan and communities like it haven't been using Pepe for forever anyways.
(also funny that you mentioned the canadian thing,while reading old threads on another site today I stumbled across a thread where a black guy was talking about coworkers doing that the Canadian thing at a restaurant he just started at,and how he/his brother reported it to the managers and got people fired, and that was the first I ever heard of it so seeing it again on the same fay is a cool coincidence)
 
S

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Bounceounce said:
They aren't appropriating a meme, they're using a meme, no one owns it.
It's not like 4chan and communities like it haven't been using Pepe for forever anyways.
(also funny that you mentioned the canadian thing,while reading old threads on another site today I stumbled across a thread where a black guy was talking about coworkers doing that the Canadian thing at a restaurant he just started at,and how he/his brother reported it to the managers and got people fired, and that was the first I ever heard of it so seeing it again on the same fay is a cool coincidence)
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So... the Nazis were not appropriating the Swastika they were just using it?

Is the shitty character that important to people that they have to jump through hoops of illogic?
 
E

Easy_D

never left the stone age
Fuck off ya cunts, Pepe will always be pure in my heart. It'll blow over and we'll have him back again, eventually ;_;
 
G

Game Guru

Member
Krejlooc said:
I'll give an example of a racist dog whistle for the folks who just can't understand how Pepe is being appropriated: the word canadian.

Yes, the word canadian is commonly appropriated for racist reasons. It gets used as a not-so-subtle stand in for "black people." Examples - going to a club with many black people around and hearing someone say "This place is full of canadians" or "it's like canada in here!"

This actually happens. In those contexts, it's pretty obvious that usage of the word canada or canadian is intended to be racist. Other example of a word being appropriated this way: google is being used as a stand in for "faggot" these days.

So yeah, while you might be right that Pepe originally didn't start as an alt-right dog whistle or that there are other uses for it, you shouldn't ignore the obviousness in front of you. The alt-right is purposefully appropriating the meme.
Click to expand...

On the other hand, if bigots are using Canada and Google as stand-ins for bigoted words, then there is not much you can do about those jackasses appropriating symbols and words. Thus as the ADL has stated, there is a difference between a racist use of Pepe and a normal use of Pepe much like there is a difference between using "Canada" as a racial slur and using "Canada" to refer to the country. What seems to be important is context, at least for the not-so-obvious symbols.
 
B

Bounceounce

Member
Suikoguy said:
So... the Nazis were not appropriating the Swastika they were just using it?

Is the shitty character that important to people that they have to jump through hoops of illogic?
Click to expand...
The Swatsika had an original meaning that the Nazi's twisted to fit what they wanted it to fit.
The original Pepe didn't have a meaning, he was just a character doing something in a comic, that eventually spun into a slew of different faces for people to meme.
The altright just so happened to take a particular liking to the devious/quizzical Pepe face an ran with it, but I truly don't see it as any different than what any other group or individual person has done with Pepe on a daily basis, it's just a meme, they can do whatever they want with it.
I don't really like the Pepe meme, but that doesn't mean I like what it's being spun as or all of the responses in this thread, particularly the ones making "reclaiming Pepe" into some ideological battle over a character you have no more of a right to than them.
 
K

Krejlooc

Banned
Game Guru said:
On the other hand, if bigots are using Canada and Google as stand-ins for bigoted words, then there is not much you can do about those jackasses appropriating symbols and words. Thus as the ADL has stated, there is a difference between a racist use of Pepe and a normal use of Pepe much like there is a difference between using "Canada" as a racial slur and using "Canada" to refer to the country. What seems to be important is context, at least for the not-so-obvious symbols.
Click to expand...

Nobody in this thread pointing out pepe appropriation, nor the article in question, are suggesting anything be done at all.

The only argument in this topic is whether or not pepe has been appropriated at all, seemingly by people who have no idea what appropriation or this article was about: pointing out the appropriation in the first place.
 
K

Krejlooc

Banned
Bounceounce said:
The Swatsika had an original meaning that the Nazi's twisted to fit what they wanted it to fit.
The original Pepe didn't have a meaning, he was just a character doing something in a comic, that eventually spun into a slew of different faces for people to meme.
The altright just so happened to take a particular liking to the devious/quizzical Pepe face an ran with it, but I truly don't see it as any different than what any other group or individual person has done with Pepe on a daily basis, it's just a meme, they can do whatever they want with it.
I don't really like the Pepe meme, but that doesn't mean I like what it's being spun as or all of the responses in this thread, particularly the ones making "reclaiming Pepe" into some ideological battle over a character you have no more of a right to than them.
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clue: this article is about twisting any meaning. It's not about "reclaiming" pepe. It's not about any of these deflections you're pushing.

Literally the article is only about a new meaning that is being overtly applied to the meme in large abundance.

Further, pepe absolutely had an original meaning. It was "feels good man." That's what the face implied. That's the whole meaning of the meme. It was used to signify that you don't care about the social norm of what is being discussed, that you go against the norm because "it feels good, man." Thats why there was a popular subversion of him frowning with "feels bad man."

Which is precisely why the alt-right is appropriating it.
 
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