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[Kabuki Waq]

My friend is addicted to FF11 all i see him do is click the battle button and heal at the right time and maybe throw in a spell. Thats it no other skill involved. The game basically rewards you on the amount of time you spend in the game not your skill.

The guy has this huge sword and was wearing some fancy armor and what does he do?

HE FIGHTS A CUTE BUNNY! WTF?!?!
The collision detection is horrible you fight the enemies the exact same way no matter how different the enemies are, they have no AI, so whats the point?

you and your party gets beaten by a huge monster so what do you ?

You dont create a new strategy(cause teh combat is pretty much the same)

What you do is you and your friend friend heal for a few minutes and then you spend hours "fighting" those killer bunnies to level up and then try again.

So let me get this straight

The game is endless
The combat is basic as it gets
The player is rewarded based on time not skill
There is no story really
Leave your reflexes and strategy at home
Pay a monthly fee


Does anybodyelse see games of this type as one big scam?


i just dont get it

 

[Gattsu25]

and you surmised all this in a few minutes of not playing?

good for you, most others have to go through 10 hours of getting their ass handed to them before they start bitching

 

[Kabuki Waq]

did you even read the post?

 

[Teknopathetic]

They're time sinks. The appeal in general is customizing your character to your whim and pwning mobs, PvP, RvR, etc. Unlike MOST MMORPGs, however, customization in FFXI is nearly nil which takes out a big aspect, IMO. Sure you can switch jobs, blah blah, but actual attribute manipulation is non-existant.

I agree about combat, but they're not games to be played for a story. Also, the point of MMORPGs is to semi-recreate a fantasy world. Complete with real people (predominantly) Not just a bunch of scripted NPCs.

 

[TekunoRobby]

Kabuki Waq I undertand your concerns and issues, so I would like to reccomend Lineage II to you.

You'll love it, I promise.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

I can see how ppl like having this whole world to walk around in and how talking to different ppl can be apealing i guess, but when the core gameplay is so flawed in terms of combat and rewards why would people keep playing for hours and hours?

ok sure you can be some grand wizard or something but all that will happen is you will fight monsters that same way you always did, the AI will not be improved the monster will just have more hit points. You will still just be there clicking away and watching mana and health, thats it.

 

[Gattsu25]

yeah, but I also noticed a few things

your friend is playing the most restrictive class in the game, the Paladin...they cannot experiment and expect to get a party as people are highly reluctant to play as a paladin that does NOT have a specific subjob, using a specific weapon, that doesn't use specific spells and abilities at specific times, ect. One of the reasons I never played the job is because of how little choice you have (Though Shouta got far as a PLD that didn't stick to this)

Bunnies as an experience enemy is also highly unlikely, but I'm guessing your friend just attacked the nearest enemy to 'show off' his uber defense and shit attack power to you...but I'm sure you knew that

at any rate, Tre is here to spout his uninformed 2 year old opinion on the game based on his short level-down filled exploits

the story takes a long time to unfold, but it's actually a very good story...not up to the likes of a standalone RPG but better than all the failed attempts in other MMOs

 

[Teknopathetic]

You could apply that to many, many games if you dumb down the description far enough.

Once again, character customization, etc. It's no different from enjoying Morrowind, actually.

"Tre is here to spout his uninformed 2 year old opinion"

Er, 2 years? You need a calendar, mate. And as far as customization goes, if it's such an opinion (instead of a fact) and un-informed, then please explain how it is. If you can't (hint, you can't), then kindly be quiet.

 

[ferricide]

if there were no skill in the game, everyone would have the same success rate -- and that's simply not true, i know, from talking to people who play MMOs.

note: i think the game doesn't look interesting either.

 

[seismologist]

The appeal is in building your character attributes by aquiring items so you'll do better at combat, hence progress in levels and get to see new areas in the game.

As for FFXI There's actually alot of subtle strategy involved in the combat. There's a huge difference partying with people who are skilled at combat vs. people who are not.
Alot of it has to do with the timing.

For example, magic users:
1. Knowing your spell charge time and timing it just right so it doesn't get interrupted by the enemy attack.

2. Timing your casts to land just as your party completes a skill chain to maximize damage.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

lets not talk about morrowind ....that was an MMORPG without the MMO part

 

[MrCheez]

Well, I'm sure most of this forum knows that I kind of hate FFXI with a passion... but I do have to admit that a lot of the things your faulting it for are the same in almost every MMO (and I play and love quite a few).

You hinted at the draws of the genre in your last post. MMOs offer you a vast new world to explore, where other living breathing people can join you and experience adventure at any time of the day. Most people find gaining levels addicting because (depending on the MMO), your character grows to fit your playstyle, and "becoming more uber than your friends" can be kinda addicting.

So those are the main draws, really. The gameplay can be a weak aspect of the genre, but it depends. Take a player with no strategic thinking and put them in one of these games next to someone with strategic thinking... and only one will come out alive, really. You have to know how to act when you've accidentally pulled 20 golbins to your group instead of two. =)

 

[TheDuce22]

Back before ultima online was ruined it took a huge ammount of skill to play and do well in PvP. I guess mmorpg players decided they didnt want that. They would rather have it based on who has spent the most time searching for "uber" items.

 

[nubbe]

The game is endless
The combat is basic as it gets
The player is rewarded based on time not skill
There is no story really
Leave your reflexes and strategy at home
Pay a monthly fee

That pretty much sums it up
Well, there is a story and lore in MMOs… But you’ll need to look for it to find it and it doesn’t really affect your actions or interaction with the world.

Now, Jump to Lightspeed for SWG is all about skill!
I have high hopes for it… JTL should be good even if SWG sucks… since they aren’t really related and Xwing, Tie Fighter and Alliance were great.

 

[MrCheez]

After DAOC I thought all MMOs would start making PvP a huge part of the game... but it hasn't really happened yet (for the most part).

Fighting against real players is the most exciting thing you can do in an MMO, methinks. I mean... it's just like the action-packed, nerve-racking experience you'd get with, say, Counter-Strike or UT. But in an MMO you're owning people with a character you've spent countless hours with, who is unique to most of the other players ability-wise, and who you know inside and out. =) Fun stuff. (Well, when the classes are balanced and there are no zergs, anyway!)

 

[Scalemail Ted]

So essentially what you'd like is to see is the 'G' removed from the acronym.


Yeah...I 'd agree with that!

...and while you're at it; you should consider taking away the 'R' and the 'P' cause there ain't a whole lot of that either in those MMOs.

 

[Outdoor Miner]

Go and play DAoC. I just finished a 2 hour session in The Lion's Den (battleground for character's level 5-9). Gained several levels attempting to help my realm mates take back a castle keep from the Mids. No grind, intense for 2 straight hours (especially when the 3rd realm decided to stop by).

Play that game and come back and say that the combat system is basic or that it involves no skill.

There's nothing formulaic about RvR combat at least in this game, every fight is a unique situation that requires skill as much as luck to get out off.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

After DAOC I thought all MMOs would start making PvP a huge part of the game... but it hasn't really happened yet (for the most part).

Fighting against real players is the most exciting thing you can do in an MMO, methinks. I mean... it's just like the action-packed, nerve-racking experience you'd get with, say, Counter-Strike or UT. But in an MMO you're owning people with a character you've spent countless hours with, who is unique to most of the other players ability-wise, and who you know inside and out. =) Fun stuff. (Well, when the classes are balanced and there are no zergs, anyway!)

Now that sounds like fun.


I hate the way the AI does not change in ff11 from what i have seen although siesmologist does bring up good points dealing with skill. Its a bit too Subtle for me tho.

 

[Gattsu25]

I hate the way the AI does not change in ff11

Anticans, full party wipeouts

 

[Pachinko]

MMORPGS arent' in fact actually videogames, they are chatrooms with a graphical interface. The people who play them obsessivly are in fact even lower then furries on the nerdy list of nerdy nerds.

Until the day comes when an MMORPG has actual gameplay , nothing will change my mind on this- what do I want ? a real time combat engine similar to wind waker or even kingdom hearts. It'll never happen though, why? becuase it'd be to easy for subscribers to the game to finish it fast. The solution ? have only 50% of the game opened up for the first 60 days with montly patches afterwards adding a couple new areas , patches which you'd buy instead of paying a monthly fee. So if after 2 months you saw everything the game had to offer and you wanted more you could pay 15 bucks for 2-3 more areas to explore with a few missions/ tasks per area. With the actual fighting requiring dodging and timing skills I'd for sure play something like this.

 

[Ferrio]

MMORPGS arent' in fact actually videogames, they are chatrooms with a graphical interface. The people who play them obsessivly are in fact even lower then furries on the nerdy list of nerdy nerds.

What about Furry MMORPG's?

http://www.furcadia.com/

 

[MrCheez]

MMORPGS arent' in fact actually videogames, they are chatrooms with a graphical interface. The people who play them obsessivly are in fact even lower then furries on the nerdy list of nerdy nerds.

Ummmmmmmmmm

From the sounds of it you haven't actually played many videogames. I could name countless normal "videogames" that are almost exactly like MMOs (except offline, of course).

Besides, technically MMOs do have real-time combat engines. The only difference is attacking is usually automatic once you begin... so all you're missing is pressing the attack over and over =) Sure, this isn't as engaging as a real-time game that lets you do combos, dodge attacks, and whatnot... and sure, I agree with you that skill is not as required in these games as I'd like, but saying that it's to the point where you're not even playing a game is pretty stupid. =P

 

[Gattsu25]

Pachinko: basically an online version of .Hack

that'll do well :b

 

[Takuan]

This is pretty much how all MMO's work. Some have you clicking more actively than others, that's all. In WoW, for example, I use maybe 4-5 different skills in a battle but click on 'em pretty frequently. Most of the skill involves knowing when to use what in unique situations. For example, as a rogue I can kick mages to interrupt their casting, but their refresh is quicker than my kick skill's (they can cast again before I'm able to kick again), so I can stun them with the gouge skill. In another situation I was grouped with a bunch of warriors who were able to time their charges (a skill where you rush the enemy at a distance and stun it for a few secs) so that we effectively whacked at dummies for the major duration of fights.

Along with really fast pacing, this sort of stuff makes the combat in WoW enjoyable for me.

 

[MetatronM]

Well, there's very little "skill" in the sense that you don't pull off crazy combos or go through platforming levels involving great reflex speed and dexterity, but there is skill. There's skill in knowing how to fight effectively in a group. There is skill in organization and teamwork. There is skill in knowing when to hunt, when to run, and when to use your abilities. Frankly, it sounds like either your friend or his party sucked.

Of course, much of what you say is true. Spending tons of time in the game can advance you faster than becoming skilled, if that's how you want to play the game. And really, the game can often be outright boring at times. But, there is something to be said for just leisurely playing as a character that you grow very attached to, and there is something to be said for just going out and seeing what the game's world has to offer. I mean, I'm the slowest FF XI leveler around, but I very much enjoy just wandering the game's countryside and taking my time. Games are little more than entertainment designed to distract you, after all, and sometimes I don't want to play something that requires twitch reactions or deep concentration or long dragged out cutscene watching. Sometimes I just want to immerse in laziness, and that's personally why I rather like FF XI.

I mean, it's very easy to see why it's unappealling to many people, and honestly there are very few MMORPGs that really intrigue me, but every now and then it is just nice to escape into something rather leisurely.

 

[Azrael]

There is considerable strategy involved in playing FFXI effectively. Setting up skill chains and magic bursts which involve careful timing and communication among party members, knowing what food and equipment will be most effective for your job and using it, rationing and timing the use of stun attacks to cancel powerful enemy attacks (such as goblin bombs, etc.), positioning the party members properly to use sneak attack + trick attack, knowing where the good camp sites are, creativing a balanced party setup that will work well together as a team (instead of a party of say, 2 whms, 1 pld, 2 war and 1 rdm that idiot party leaders put together), pulling mobs back to camp effectively without getting an add every third battle, intuiting the line between doing as much damage to the mob as possible while not pulling its attention off the tank, etc.

Some of these may seem trivial, but there are many players who don't understand how to do these things. And it will take you much, much longer to raise levels in bad parties than it does if you land yourself in a good one. I'd say there's definitely more strategy here than your average turn-based offline RPG.

 

[The Faceless Master]

My friend is addicted to FF11 all i see him do is click the battle button and heal at the right time and maybe throw in a spell. Thats it no other skill involved. The game basically rewards you on the amount of time you spend in the game not your skill.

The guy has this huge sword and was wearing some fancy armor and what does he do?

HE FIGHTS A CUTE BUNNY! WTF?!?!
The collision detection is horrible you fight the enemies the exact same way no matter how different the enemies are, they have no AI, so whats the point?

you and your party gets beaten by a huge monster so what do you ?

You dont create a new strategy(cause teh combat is pretty much the same)

What you do is you and your friend friend heal for a few minutes and then you spend hours "fighting" those killer bunnies to level up and then try again.

So let me get this straight

The game is endless
The combat is basic as it gets
The player is rewarded based on time not skill
There is no story really
Leave your reflexes and strategy at home
Pay a monthly fee


Does anybodyelse see games of this type as one big scam?


i just dont get it

imo, the fun isn't in the game, the fun is playing and communicating with other people...

 

[DCharlie]

What i never understand about RPGs etc is the fact that (well, in FFXI at least) you can slaughter the Orkish Fodder characters (quite big, look fairly handy) yet you will get absolutely FB'ed by some of the rabbits (looks fluffy, non-threating).

Looks are deceiving and all that, but i find it difficult to suspend reality to the point of being kicked to death by a rabbit.

FFXI and my girlfriend - if her ps2 had a wang, i'd be single.

 

[Bizarro Sun Yat-sen]

Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes!

 

[nubbe]

I warned you, but did you listen to me? Oh, no, you knew it all, didn't you? Oh, it's just a harmless little bunny, isn't it? Well, it's always the same. I always tell them--

 

[Neutron Night]

After DAOC I thought all MMOs would start making PvP a huge part of the game... but it hasn't really happened yet (for the most part).

Fighting against real players is the most exciting thing you can do in an MMO, methinks. I mean... it's just like the action-packed, nerve-racking experience you'd get with, say, Counter-Strike or UT. But in an MMO you're owning people with a character you've spent countless hours with, who is unique to most of the other players ability-wise, and who you know inside and out. =) Fun stuff. (Well, when the classes are balanced and there are no zergs, anyway!)

Wait for Dark and Light. Most advanced PvP ever. As well as most advanced pretty much everything else.

Oh yeah.

MMORPGS arent' in fact actually videogames, they are chatrooms with a graphical interface. The people who play them obsessivly are in fact even lower then furries on the nerdy list of nerdy nerds.

Until the day comes when an MMORPG has actual gameplay , nothing will change my mind on this- what do I want ? a real time combat engine similar to wind waker or even kingdom hearts. It'll never happen though, why? becuase it'd be to easy for subscribers to the game to finish it fast. The solution ? have only 50% of the game opened up for the first 60 days with montly patches afterwards adding a couple new areas , patches which you'd buy instead of paying a monthly fee. So if after 2 months you saw everything the game had to offer and you wanted more you could pay 15 bucks for 2-3 more areas to explore with a few missions/ tasks per area. With the actual fighting requiring dodging and timing skills I'd for sure play something like this.

UGH. I'll pass on the small game that you have to buy new levels for, thanks. Maybe you should just stick to action games. And "missions" really have no place in an MMORPG, I don't understand why people can't figure that out. MMORPG's are supposed to be DYNAMIC, not linear.

 

[Ar_]

Some.
Some MMORPGs do require some skill, of some kind, from some players, on some occasions.

In EQ, organizing and leading raids or a guild, rules, politics, loot issues, candidates selection, motivating players to sink more time in the game, website and boards design and management, are some of the biggest "challenges".
Incidentally, many of those have more to do with social and organizative skills than gaming.

Skill was required to create and optimize tactics for certain encounters.
Infrequent, and not everyone is involved in it, but on occasion it was very interesting.

Provided you played the right classes, you could figure how the system worked and take full advantage of it, eventually in an unintended way, to accomplish some "amazing" feats surprising everyone.

A few classes were sometimes dependant on some timing / targetting / fast thinking / pattern identification / deep game mechanics and encounter knowledge, for the best results. Same for certain group configurations.

Havent played much of other games, but some seem to be complex enough to offer saltuary interesting challenges.
The old UO seemed to require a degree of skill, if nothing else in managing the initially overwhelming freedom and number of options.
PvP may also require skill.
FFXI looks flat, after reading some comments and skill lists.

Generally, MMORPG are designed for skill to not matter much, for at least 2 reasons:

- Gimps retain the ability to imagine themselves as some kind of Heroes, instead than leaving the game after a brutal reality check.

- A more even and controllable player progression in the game, easying the production and marketing of new content to retain players. Skilled ones dont consume the content too fast, leaving before the expansion hits the market.

In great part, the gameplay and enjoyment work like this:

1) Fight boredom and grind your way to the next Big Upgrade that will make you Cool And Succesful And Envied And Rich Of Friends And Girls (or guys pretending to be girls).

2) Enjoy the upgrade for about 15.7 seconds of nerdy orgasm.
Then excitement wears out, you notice the sky didnt open and Eternal Divine Bliss didnt come down unto you. Neither girls, for that matter.
Compulsively looking at your newly aquired item and stats, or frying with your new uber skill every Small_Cute_Bunny that doesnt show proper respect for your greatness, may (with proper training) prolonge the excitement up to 19 or 20 seconds.
Exceptional cases are reported of nerds bragging over their loot for lifetimes, but you may not want to reach that level.

3) So whats the reason the excitement wore off? Because it wasnt a worthwhile archievement to begin with? Noooo, of course the problem is that you also need Shiny_Upgrade_0376! With it, the bliss will SURELY be ETERNAL.
A new dream to strive for, already dawns on the horizon! A new hope for humanity! Get to work, my little ant, back to point #1.

Is the culture of the Timesink: pay and suffer the boring game now, to be rewarded (much) later. Maybe. If you convince yourself well enough.
Hell, as I quit EQ I had over 1 year played. As in time actually spent online. And it wasnt uncommon, among the people who started playing at release and aimed to reach the high end game.
Im a fool for not putting 60 hours to get the Fun out of Kirby Air Ride, that would have been like istant gratification in comparison!

What about the story? Lets give a look to the story of MMORPGs.

You are a psycho, going out killing everything that breaths - and many things that dont - for praticing your skills.
You have a wide variety of interests: your hobby is killing; your purpose in life is becoming better at killing.
When you grown up, you want to kill that legendary creature that no one even knows if it really exists - and if it does, poor soul, then has just been minding to his own business.
Racial tolerance isnt your strenght, as you will happily go on genocide campaigns directly in the homes of different creatures. And steal their stuff.

On a personality test for your job, at the question "what do you think when you see someone unique looking, apparently highly ranked among his peers", you replyed: "Id gang kill him to see whay he is carring. Repeatedly".

Your Hero is actually the idiot of the village, living in its own fantasy world.
Every fat NPC shopkeeper can kick you behind, but they need you to save them for Teh Evil Menace? They are enjoying life and laughting as you go on your crazy unnecessary quest.
OH MY HERO, SAVE US FROM THE INCOMbING MENACE OF THE EVIL DRAg00n NO ONE EVER SAW AROUND HERE - and while at it quest me a dozen bananas and pineapples for my salad - AND I WILL REWARD YOU WITH A CAP OF +3 Sospension Of Disbelief AND MY ETERNAL GRATITUDEEE (until lunch time and bananas respawn).

 

[Shouta]

There`s skill in FFXI but you don`t need it to level to 75 like many other MMOs and getting to high level. Skill in FFXI is rather hard to fathom as it requires paying attention to many things that can`t be gauged with a number or numbers. It`s definitely not something many people enjoy and having it in this form makes it harder to quantify. There`s a difference between good and great players in FFXI but you won`t notice it without paying close attention to many things because it`s very subtle. The only way you`re going to be able to tell that is with a lot of in-game experience.

 

[Kweh]

Also the merit system has been introduced, which has started attribute customization. Granted, it is only at lvl 75 and you can only have 10 MPs, but hopefully its a start of more customization to be added in the future.

ie : implement it into lower lvl's, unlimited attribute upgrades

 

[Kabuki Waq]

Some.
Some MMORPGs do require some skill, of some kind, from some players, on some occasions.

In EQ, organizing and leading raids or a guild, rules, politics, loot issues, candidates selection, motivating players to sink more time in the game, website and boards design and management, are some of the biggest "challenges".
Incidentally, many of those have more to do with social and organizative skills than gaming.

Skill was required to create and optimize tactics for certain encounters.
Infrequent, and not everyone is involved in it, but on occasion it was very interesting.

Provided you played the right classes, you could figure how the system worked and take full advantage of it, eventually in an unintended way, to accomplish some "amazing" feats surprising everyone.

A few classes were sometimes dependant on some timing / targetting / fast thinking / pattern identification / deep game mechanics and encounter knowledge, for the best results. Same for certain group configurations.

Havent played much of other games, but some seem to be complex enough to offer saltuary interesting challenges.
The old UO seemed to require a degree of skill, if nothing else in managing the initially overwhelming freedom and number of options.
PvP may also require skill.
FFXI looks flat, after reading some comments and skill lists.

Generally, MMORPG are designed for skill to not matter much, for at least 2 reasons:

- Gimps retain the ability to imagine themselves as some kind of Heroes, instead than leaving the game after a brutal reality check.

- A more even and controllable player progression in the game, easying the production and marketing of new content to retain players. Skilled ones dont consume the content too fast, leaving before the expansion hits the market.

In great part, the gameplay and enjoyment work like this:

1) Fight boredom and grind your way to the next Big Upgrade that will make you Cool And Succesful And Envied And Rich Of Friends And Girls (or guys pretending to be girls).

2) Enjoy the upgrade for about 15.7 seconds of nerdy orgasm.
Then excitement wears out, you notice the sky didnt open and Eternal Divine Bliss didnt come down unto you. Neither girls, for that matter.
Compulsively looking at your newly aquired item and stats, or frying with your new uber skill every Small_Cute_Bunny that doesnt show proper respect for your greatness, may (with proper training) prolonge the excitement up to 19 or 20 seconds.
Exceptional cases are reported of nerds bragging over their loot for lifetimes, but you may not want to reach that level.

3) So whats the reason the excitement wore off? Because it wasnt a worthwhile archievement to begin with? Noooo, of course the problem is that you also need Shiny_Upgrade_0376! With it, the bliss will SURELY be ETERNAL.
A new dream to strive for, already dawns on the horizon! A new hope for humanity! Get to work, my little ant, back to point #1.

Is the culture of the Timesink: pay and suffer the boring game now, to be rewarded (much) later. Maybe. If you convince yourself well enough.
Hell, as I quit EQ I had over 1 year played. As in time actually spent online. And it wasnt uncommon, among the people who started playing at release and aimed to reach the high end game.
Im a fool for not putting 60 hours to get the Fun out of Kirby Air Ride, that would have been like istant gratification in comparison!

What about the story? Lets give a look to the story of MMORPGs.

You are a psycho, going out killing everything that breaths - and many things that dont - for praticing your skills.
You have a wide variety of interests: your hobby is killing; your purpose in life is becoming better at killing.
When you grown up, you want to kill that legendary creature that no one even knows if it really exists - and if it does, poor soul, then has just been minding to his own business.
Racial tolerance isnt your strenght, as you will happily go on genocide campaigns directly in the homes of different creatures. And steal their stuff.

On a personality test for your job, at the question "what do you think when you see someone unique looking, apparently highly ranked among his peers", you replyed: "Id gang kill him to see whay he is carring. Repeatedly".

Your Hero is actually the idiot of the village, living in its own fantasy world.
Every fat NPC shopkeeper can kick you behind, but they need you to save them for Teh Evil Menace? They are enjoying life and laughting as you go on your crazy unnecessary quest.
OH MY HERO, SAVE US FROM THE INCOMbING MENACE OF THE EVIL DRAg00n NO ONE EVER SAW AROUND HERE - and while at it quest me a dozen bananas and pineapples for my salad - AND I WILL REWARD YOU WITH A CAP OF +3 Sospension Of Disbelief AND MY ETERNAL GRATITUDEEE (until lunch time and bananas respawn).

WOW

 

[Dice]

Hahaha, yeah I hate MMORPG's too.

For now I say no thanks, but if those POS try to replace my normal RPG's, I will be very upset and they will bear the burden of my continual wrath.

 

[hiryu]

All I can add is that it takes some skill and in certain cases great skill to pull certain raid targets as a bard in EQ. A lot of the skill in MMORPG's comes from in game knowledge and the best ways to use what skills your character has to create advantages and to make things easier for your group or guild. If I can bring solo pulls to my group or guild by using all the abilities my character has and when knowing when to use each ability I make the game easier and safer for everyone. That's just one way skill comes in. A tank, for instance, might use skill to know the best way to keep aggro and minimize the damage being dealt to him.

 

[Belfast]

So, so, so, so much bullshit in this thread. MMORPGs aren't the pinnacle of gaming, but that doesn't mean they don't have merit at all. This sort of ufnettered hatred of the genre once again seems to come from a certain type of person who plays them rather than an actual examination of the games themselves. They aren't perfect and they don't offer fast action or frequent thrills, but there IS some kind of carnal pleasure in building up your character and interacting with other people or just plain exploring. Its a moot point to complain about paying extra money for an MMORPG and expansions. If they were giving you your average 10 hour game from the start, maybe, but they're giving you at least a few hundred HOURS of content from the very beginning. Expansions, patches with new features, etc. are more or less icing on the cake. The appeal partly comes from always having new things to look forward to. In most games, when you finish a game that's it. Nothing more. There might be a couple things to unlock here or there, or in an extreme case there's a multiplayer mode that keeps you and your friends interested for awhile, but otherwise, that's it. In MMORPGs you'll almost never run out of things to do. That makes it fun, because it works on a perpetual reward system. Its a very simplistic idea, but one that cuts to the root of the human psyche. But just because the idea is simple doesn't mean the execution is, as well. Its hard to see the complexities of an MMORPG on the surface. Like Shouta said, a lot of it can't be quantified, especially in FFXI, but there are tons of subtlties to the gameplay that come in the form of knowledge and experience. KNOWING things about the game makes up for flashy-looking combos and platform jumping. If you aren't informed, you won't make it far. So its all about talking, communicating, learning, exploring, etc. and then applying the knowledge/experience you gain from these activities (both in your head and literally, in the form of an upgradable character) to make progress.

I won't lie and say there isn't a level treadmill in most of these games. There is. But, honestly, the technology isn't there yet to deliver a combat system that LOOKS flashy and incorporates all kinds of complex movements. Everyone would be lagged so bad that it would never be fun. That's why these sorts of engines are relegated to games like PSO or Monster Hunter, where you're only playing with a few people at a time. When technolgy gets better, we'll see better MMORPGs, but there is still fun to be had in these games for now and a surface-level analysis of it unfortunately won't yield answers.

 

[Kintaro]

Also the merit system has been introduced, which has started attribute customization. Granted, it is only at lvl 75 and you can only have 10 MPs, but hopefully its a start of more customization to be added in the future.

ie : implement it into lower lvl's, unlimited attribute upgrades

Keep in mind, the merit system is temporary according to Sqaure, and limited into where you can put your points. i.e. maintaining *some* difference in the races of Vanadiel. Implementing this at all lvls, while sounding cool, would leads to imbalance, not to mention help the "complaint" that there's really no difference between races (while we all know, as you raise in lvls, there is).

Elvaans are not meant to naturally match the DEX of Mithra. And Vice verse with the STR (all base stats). I personally would not like to see this changed as drastically as it would be in this system was unlimited.

 

[seismologist]

Also the people who say MMORPGs are glorified chatrooms are full of BS. I played 75 hours of FFXI and I didn't even have a keyboard

 

[Belfast]

MMORPGs aren't really glorified chatrooms. They're more like games WITH a chatroom. The nature of MMORPGs make it necessary to easily communicate with other players and, unlike online games with faster action (such as FPSs), there can be a lot of downtime. During this time, its nice to have something to do, like strike up conversations with other players. Its more of a convenience than a hindrance to the genre.

 

[TKM]

It is impossible IMO to complete BCNM without a good measure of skill, planning, and positioning. FFXI requires a great deal more skill to play than most RPGs. And the time sink criticism applies to those as well. Aside from a few exceptions, one can always level past a difficult boss rather than use a different strategy.

 

[Kai Dracon]

It is impossible IMO to complete BCNM without a good measure of skill, planning, and positioning. FFXI requires a great deal more skill to play than most RPGs. And the time sink criticism applies to those as well. Aside from a few exceptions, one can always level past a difficult boss rather than use a different strategy.

In point of fact, after playing FFXI for a few months I began to wish the single player Final Fantasy games had the same depth of strategy as FFXI in their combat system. Or perhaps rather, forced you to USE strategy. In offline FF games, you can easily blow through the game by quickly leveling up and rarely is there even a boss that really -requires- a specific strategy or you're dead meat.

While FFXI does have some MMO traits, like treadmills and bunnybashing (but only to a certain point), it's also FAR, far more challenging in terms of what it demands of you in knowing the game system and world, and exact attributes of every monster, relative to whatever level you're currently at. Thanks to how the experience system is balanced (and admittedly, the treadmill to a degree), it would take impossible amounts of time to merely "power up" on weak and safe enemies in order to blow through higher level monsters. In order to progress in anything approaching reasonable time, you have to cooperate, group, know thy enemy, know the regions, and apply a greater, more overall style of strategic thinking and -especially- planning ahead.

Most single-player RPGs, including the "more complex and customizable" Western style RPGs, don't have nearly this degree of difficulty or overall strategy.

(And by the way, most Furry fans think Furcadia sucks very, very bad )