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Haha, I almost added "don't use BB, UNIEL, or P4A in your examples" in my last post, because I don't play those games and can't follow what you say well. So, I need to ask questions to understand what you are saying.

Like in P4A I start to stagger pressure with Narukami. I do a string like 5A > 2A > 5A > 2B > 5B. During that string I'm trying to see if he stand up while blocking. Why? Because that's a tell that somebody might be OSing fuzzy jump or fuzzy roll. I notice they stand up. Next pressure string I'll do something like 5A > 2A > delay 2A to catch them standing up or rolling or jumping. Low risk, low reward option but now they are checked for OSing. The upside here is if you have the read, you can make the decision right there to look for 2B on fuzzy jump, and if you're right you /murdered/ that person. You got a high reward from properly understanding the decision your opponent was making and making your own decision to beat it. The next time I start to pressure this person, now I can check to see if they stopped OSing, there's a bigger set of options on the table, there are more decisions to be made. The idea of RPS to guess is already flimsy, but when you add on that layer of "how is this guy RPSing? Is he OSing? Or he is he looking for standard stuff?" it becomes a much different game. The situation has changed, more options have opened up than were lost, and the game gets going.
Why isn't the opponent standing up while blocking just an indicator that he is blocking high? How do you know the OS is being used? Why wouldn't they use the OS if they were trying to accomplish one or the other defense option?

In BB it's similar. You see somebody flashing barrier in throw situations where you choose strike. Now you've spotted the barrier tech OS. Now that's opened up the game from strike/throw/block to strike/throw/block/TRM. When they layer fuzzy jump into it then you really adjust the way you do strikes and set up TRM, but it's the same idea. Now the game is opened up to more situations existing than the basic guessing game because better guesses exist. The fun part? Calling out those better guesses yields higher reward, so players have to really think how they want to use those options back and forth. The guessing game has gotten deeper, there's another layer. All the same options they had before exist, now there's just this new option that covers some things better but leads to way higher reward for calling out.
What's TRM?

In UNI it's the same way. They knew OSes on defense would be a thing with how shield works, and I'm willing to bet they were fine with that. Like anybody could've figured that out. Then they made shield break on throw a thing. Now because throw OS exists utilizing shield, there's more of an incentive for players to watch shielding and throw habits, and to look for that higher reward. There's more to the situations people will create because that high reward is there, but they'll have to extend themselves in an unsafe way to get it.
This just sounds like the risk/reward balance is shifted in UNIEL. Am I misunderstanding? If that's the case, that doesn't add depth.
 

BakedYams

Slayer of Combofiends
That's the Skullgirls driver implementation for the Madcatz pads, I believe. The implementation of that driver is shit for SF4 (and all other games that use it) so it's not a very good option, lol.

Oh wow, I had no clue. I just want to play SF4 with a 360 controller ;_;
 

Anne

Member
Haha, I almost added "don't use BB, UNIEL, or P4A in your examples" in my last post, because I don't play those games and can't follow what you say well. So, I need to ask questions to understand what you are saying.


Why isn't the opponent standing up while blocking just an indicator that he is blocking high? How do you know the OS is being used? Why wouldn't they use the OS if they were trying to accomplish one or the other defense option?


What's TRM?


This just sounds like the risk/reward balance is shifted in UNIEL. Am I misunderstanding? If that's the case, that doesn't add depth.

Narukami doesn't have a threatening overhead, you don't stand up blocking him unless you're reacting to something. That's why you do the delay 2A check to see if they are OSing, that's the giveaway. They could be trying to just mash roll and jump out but if you cover those anyways it's fine. You check the timing of the OS. That's it really. They don't want to OS sometime because there's a very high reward for calling out the OS, and if somebody is doing things that beat OS but lose to basic stuff then its better to pick the basic option at that point. It's another layer of risk/reward.

TRM is throw reject miss. In BB if you input a grab, you can't tech grabs for 30 frames after. You can hide throw tech inside of a barrier input (barrier tech OS), but you can still be TRMed after, and people can throw you in blockstun and you won't be able to tech it.

In UNI it's just risk/reward with another layer. Shield and throw OS is super rewarding but carries high risk. There's a 2nd layer of risk reward there to explore compared to teaching differently. That's depth.

In SF4 crouch tech is pretty shitty cause it actually just shits on the normal way you'd want to mash and throw tech so it actually just removes some basic decisions. That is one of those bad OSes. You can create a new layer of depth but the way the game works you just lose out on stuff.
 

mbpm1

Member
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tumblr_inline_nqrlt9ZcUp1rn26s1_500.gif

lmao
 
Narukami doesn't have a threatening overhead, you don't stand up blocking him unless you're reacting to something. That's why you do the delay 2A check to see if they are OSing, that's the giveaway. They could be trying to just mash roll and jump out but if you cover those anyways it's fine. You check the timing of the OS. That's it really. They don't want to OS sometime because there's a very high reward for calling out the OS, and if somebody is doing things that beat OS but lose to basic stuff then its better to pick the basic option at that point. It's another layer of risk/reward.
Wouldn't you do the delay 2A to catch the non-OSed versions of those escape moves, anyway?

TRM is throw reject miss. In BB if you input a grab, you can't tech grabs for 30 frames after. You can hide throw tech inside of a barrier input (barrier tech OS), but you can still be TRMed after, and people can throw you in blockstun and you won't be able to tech it.
If you think your opponent is going for a throw, there isn't any reason to not go for the barrier tech OS though, right? The TRM comes as a result of a failed throw tech, not specifically the throw tech OS. That makes it sound like there's an additional risk to using the OS in bad situations, but it isn't actually adding more considerations - you are making just as many considerations as you would in a normal missed throw tech, but the OS just means people are more likely to make themselves vulnerable in that manner.

In UNI it's just risk/reward with another layer. Shield and throw OS is super rewarding but carries high risk. There's a 2nd layer of risk reward there to explore compared to teaching differently. That's depth.
That's definitely not depth - you aren't making additional considerations, you're just weighting the existing considerations differently.

In SF4 crouch tech is pretty shitty cause it actually just shits on the normal way you'd want to mash and throw tech so it actually just removes some basic decisions. That is one of those bad OSes. You can create a new layer of depth but the way the game works you just lose out on stuff.
Why do you feel this is so different from the BB/P4A/UNIEL examples?
 

Anne

Member
Wouldn't you do the delay 2A to catch the non-OSed versions of those escape moves, anyway?


If you think your opponent is going for a throw, there isn't any reason to not go for the barrier tech OS though, right? The TRM comes as a result of a failed throw tech, not specifically the throw tech OS. That makes it sound like there's an additional risk to using the OS in bad situations, but it isn't actually adding more considerations - you are making just as many considerations as you would in a normal missed throw tech, but the OS just means people are more likely to make themselves vulnerable in that manner.


That's definitely not depth - you aren't making additional considerations, you're just weighting the existing considerations differently.


Why do you feel this is so different from the BB/P4A/UNIEL examples?

Kind of sort of. It's actually a timing dependent thing that can lose to stuff. If you just do a normally timed 2A it gets blocked by OS, you call out like 2A >2A which is a lower reward option but is more likely to catch. There's that back and forth.

With TRM and the fuzzy jump OS you have to actually consider if that person is going to hard call out your OS for higher reward. TRM comes from a failed throw tech, but the way you do this OS that's a layer. Then when you layer jump into it you have to add additional risk. So you have to decide if you want to OS to be safer vs the strike/grab mix up or not OS like that to avoid the high reward call out. It's more than a failed grab because that can lose to way more, this is specifically the OS losing. The only downside is that normal throw teching is pretty weak, but you're going to be opting to use it to react to different types of grabs where you're not wanting to risk buffering it. The big stuff is that if you are barriering, that's a different situation than blocking, and then you have to factor in things like fuzzy blocking and jumping along with it. You could probably write a paper on how barrier and TRM interact on top of things like jump and fuzzy stuff.

Shield throw is definitely the same thing. You can attempt to tech in the normal way which has higher risk vs the basic mix up, or you can try to shield tech which has higher risk attached when it gets called out. There are extra decisions to be made there based on the OS options existing, especially when you factor in other options. At some point you can hide tech inside of mash and backdash too, but again it's all different risks you have to think about. If you want to default to shield over normal tech that is fine, but you're defaulting to a different type of risk. You'll see people start teching without the shield once they get called out enough, plus shield specific call outs like delay grab and assault exist but lose to other OSes such as fuzzy mash and 3C tech respectively. Even if you decide to always OS throw tech behind something, you will always have to consider the additional risk of what youre hiding it behind. Plus you'll have to see if your opponent is doing OS specific call outs which can lead you to choosing options that are normally risky but now offer better reward, like instant mash vs delays.

In SF4 the big difference is that crouch tech is just way better. Instead of it being a 4th option that you're not going to risk, it's really just the catch all that needs to be very specifically stopped for the same reward. Most other OSes alter risk reward in a way that adds something and can be chosen or not chosen. Crouch tech in SF4 doesn't really change the risk/reward like that, it's less risk than almost every option and will almost always yield higher reward. That's whack.

Like I don't get what you're saying when you say no extra considerations are made when you have to consider the individual risk reward of the OS specific options. That's a pretty big difference to factor in. I feel like that's you personally just saying you don't consider those New things. Like, yeah, you think about them similarly to how you think about other options, but they def alter the risk/reward game you are playing and add more things to think about.
 

Shouta

Member
Does anybody know how Evo pools went for MKX in regards to the Dualshock 4? I'm wondering what issues they had in regards to it.
 

Tripon

Member
Gamestop Expo starts tomorrow. If this was the convention Ono was hinting at, we should get a character reveal for SFV.
 
I have a question regarding the CPT rankings? Since this the first one I'm paying attention I just wanted to ask that when Capcom Cup happens how do they do the matchups? Is it 1 vs 32 and so on like traditional tourney formats that have ranks/seed? Just curious
 
Kind of sort of. It's actually a timing dependent thing that can lose to stuff. If you just do a normally timed 2A it gets blocked by OS, you call out like 2A >2A which is a lower reward option but is more likely to catch. There's that back and forth.

With TRM and the fuzzy jump OS you have to actually consider if that person is going to hard call out your OS for higher reward. TRM comes from a failed throw tech, but the way you do this OS that's a layer. Then when you layer jump into it you have to add additional risk. So you have to decide if you want to OS to be safer vs the strike/grab mix up or not OS like that to avoid the high reward call out. It's more than a failed grab because that can lose to way more, this is specifically the OS losing. The only downside is that normal throw teching is pretty weak, but you're going to be opting to use it to react to different types of grabs where you're not wanting to risk buffering it. The big stuff is that if you are barriering, that's a different situation than blocking, and then you have to factor in things like fuzzy blocking and jumping along with it. You could probably write a paper on how barrier and TRM interact on top of things like jump and fuzzy stuff.

Shield throw is definitely the same thing. You can attempt to tech in the normal way which has higher risk vs the basic mix up, or you can try to shield tech which has higher risk attached when it gets called out. There are extra decisions to be made there based on the OS options existing, especially when you factor in other options. At some point you can hide tech inside of mash and backdash too, but again it's all different risks you have to think about. If you want to default to shield over normal tech that is fine, but you're defaulting to a different type of risk. You'll see people start teching without the shield once they get called out enough, plus shield specific call outs like delay grab and assault exist but lose to other OSes such as fuzzy mash and 3C tech respectively. Even if you decide to always OS throw tech behind something, you will always have to consider the additional risk of what youre hiding it behind. Plus you'll have to see if your opponent is doing OS specific call outs which can lead you to choosing options that are normally risky but now offer better reward, like instant mash vs delays.

In SF4 the big difference is that crouch tech is just way better. Instead of it being a 4th option that you're not going to risk, it's really just the catch all that needs to be very specifically stopped for the same reward. Most other OSes alter risk reward in a way that adds something and can be chosen or not chosen. Crouch tech in SF4 doesn't really change the risk/reward like that, it's less risk than almost every option and will almost always yield higher reward. That's whack.

Like I don't get what you're saying when you say no extra considerations are made when you have to consider the individual risk reward of the OS specific options. That's a pretty big difference to factor in. I feel like that's you personally just saying you don't consider those New things. Like, yeah, you think about them similarly to how you think about other options, but they def alter the risk/reward game you are playing and add more things to think about.
I'll focus on the bolded, since it's where we disagree. What I mean is that, by definition, an OS is covering A, PLUS it is is covering B. If A is threatening you, you're also going to OS for B just in case, because there's no downside. So you effectively don't have to choose between A and B. For example, in your BlazBlue example, you don't want to use the shield-tech OS because you don't want to deal with TRM. BUT, if you are going for a throw break, you're always going to use the shield-tech OS, right? If you're going for the throw break anyway, you might as well also cover a second option. Is there a reason why, if you're going to try and tech a throw, you absolutely wouldn't want to OS it?
 

Zissou

Member
I feel like the Karst/Anne debate is:

Karst: philosophically opposed to option selects but accepts their (innevitable on some level) existence/uses them himself (ptw of course).

Anne: opposed to overly strong option selects but believes some option selects add to the game more than they take away. OS's should ve evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

Is this correct?
 

CPS2

Member
Is there a reason why, if you're going to try and tech a throw, you absolutely wouldn't want to OS it?
I know in SF4 at least, there's so many OS' s that it just isn't worth going for everything all the time. In situations where normally you'd press one button, you could press 3 buttons and quickly some other buttons, but then a moment later you're in a similar situation again.
 

Anne

Member
I'll focus on the bolded, since it's where we disagree. What I mean is that, by definition, an OS is covering A, PLUS it is is covering B. If A is threatening you, you're also going to OS for B just in case, because there's no downside. So you effectively don't have to choose between A and B. For example, in your BlazBlue example, you don't want to use the shield-tech OS because you don't want to deal with TRM. BUT, if you are going for a throw break, you're always going to use the shield-tech OS, right? If you're going for the throw break anyway, you might as well also cover a second option. Is there a reason why, if you're going to try and tech a throw, you absolutely wouldn't want to OS it?

You're not always going to shield tech because the shield adds extra risk. You're not always going to OS your throw tech because people are calling out the OS because you're adding extra risk. You can cover A and B but C yields such high reward vs OS you decide it's better to just not OS and deal with A and B. The downside for OSing B in your example is added risk. In BB when you fuzzy jump you OS jump out and barrier and tech, so you can OS all that at once, but TRM and jump start up add enough risk to convince you not to do it 100% of the time.

It also goes way deeper than throw lol. You're going to OS mash without throw, you're going to OS jump, sometimes you'll OS dash out etc. Throw is just often layered in. It's choosing which risk/reward you wanna play and which you wanna call out on offense. In UNI, if you always OS an option with your throw tech, people will always look for those callouts and you'll get blown up. You gotta decide to take the mix up sometimes instead of the risk of the OS being called out.
 
I feel like the Karst/Anne debate is:

Karst: philosophically opposed to option selects but accepts their (innevitable on some level) existence/uses them himself (ptw of course).

Anne: opposed to overly strong option selects but believes some option selects add to the game more than they take away. OS's should ve evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

Is this correct?
Yes, but I am open to the idea that an OS can add to the game. I just haven't seen that example yet. Of the 3 examples Anne gave, I think it's clear that the UNIEL example adds nothing. The BB example almost certainly adds nothing, if I understand it correctly. My understanding of P4A is too limited to know that one for certain, but I'm not seeing it, personally.

I know in SF4 at least, there's so many OS' s that it just isn't worth going for everything all the time. In situations where normally you'd press one button, you could press 3 buttons and quickly some other buttons, but then a moment later you're in a similar situation again.
Oh, absolutely. SFIV...I would be surprised if the various OSes weren't intended, just because there are so many.

You're not always going to shield tech because the shield adds extra risk. You're not always going to OS your throw tech because people are calling out the OS because you're adding extra risk. You can cover A and B but C yields such high reward vs OS you decide it's better to just not OS and deal with A and B. The downside for OSing B in your example is added risk. In BB when you fuzzy jump you OS jump out and barrier and tech, so you can OS all that at once, but TRM and jump start up add enough risk to convince you not to do it 100% of the time.

It also goes way deeper than throw lol. You're going to OS mash without throw, you're going to OS jump, sometimes you'll OS dash out etc. Throw is just often layered in. It's choosing which risk/reward you wanna play and which you wanna call out on offense. In UNI, if you always OS an option with your throw tech, people will always look for those callouts and you'll get blown up. You gotta decide to take the mix up sometimes instead of the risk of the OS being called out.
Look, I'm just trying to deal with the one example you gave me; it's your example. I know there are lots of OSes, and I don't know why you keep bringing up C - everyone knows about C. That's not what's up for discussion, though. My simple question was this: if you are going for a throw tech in BlazBlue anyway, is there any reason you wouldn't OS that throw tech?
 

Zissou

Member
Yes, but I am open to the idea that an OS can add to the game. I just haven't seen that example yet. Of the 3 examples Anne gave, I think it's clear that the UNIEL example adds nothing. The BB example almost certainly adds nothing, if I understand it correctly. My understanding of P4A is too limited to know that one for certain, but I'm not seeing it, personally.


Oh, absolutely. SFIV...I would be surprised if the various OSes weren't intended, just because there are so many.


Look, I'm just trying to deal with the one example you gave me; it's your example. I know there are lots of OSes, and I don't know why you keep bringing up C - everyone knows about C. That's not what's up for discussion, though. My simple question was this: if you are going for a throw tech in BlazBlue anyway, is there any reason you wouldn't OS that throw tech?

What about throw OS in guilty gear? You are allowed to OS which normal you get on throw 'whiff' and removing it would eliminate a decision you make every time you go for a throw, no?
 

Uncle AJ

Member
Look, I'm just trying to deal with the one example you gave me; it's your example. I know there are lots of OSes, and I don't know why you keep bringing up C - everyone knows about C. That's not what's up for discussion, though. My simple question was this: if you are going for a throw tech in BlazBlue anyway, is there any reason you wouldn't OS that throw tech?

Did you read what C represented in this scenario? Because that's your answer.
 
Seems too soon but who knows. Could be something besides a character, but idk what that would be since they just showed of the CE and alts.
Who knows! We have 6 characters to go, and 4 months until the year ends. Neoxon keeps saying that Capcom said we'd know the cast before the year is done. I don't know the source on that, but it makes sense.

What about throw OS in guilty gear? You are allowed to OS which normal you get on throw 'whiff' and removing it would eliminate a decision you make every time you go for a throw, no?
In the way I look at it, it's removing a decision. Let's say that you've already made the decision to run up and attack in some way. In Xrd, your OS options are:

P + Throw OS
K + Throw OS
H + Throw OS
HS + Throw OS
D + Throw OS (does this actually work?)

So 5 options to choose from (simplified so I don't have to type out dozens of attacks).

Now let's consider SFrd, a land where throws are tied to P + K, and there are no throw OSes. Your options are:

P
K
H
HS
D
Throw

So there are 6 options to choose from in SFrd, but only 5 in Xrd. And it doesn't really matter how many attacks there are - the throw OS is always going to be removing one option: the straight-up throw, because there's no reason to ever select it. Xrd's OS increases difficulty of execution (slightly) and complexity (slightly), but it doesn't increase depth. It's a slight decrease in depth, because you have one less option to consider.

Did you read what C represented in this scenario? Because that's your answer.
C is a counter to the A+B OS. But that's not additional depth, because C, in theory also counter A alone, and B alone. C is a viable option regardless of OS presence; it's not adding anything. Anne keeps talking about the developing metagame of OS risk/reward, but that's not additional depth; it's just a reconsideration of your currently existing options. Additional options to consider represent depth.
 

Shouta

Member
I was just about to ask. If C beats the A+B OS doesn't that technically beat A and B individually? Or is it just a counter to the A+B OS but loses to A or B? lol
 

OceanBlue

Member
D + Throw OS (does this actually work?)

Nah you just get burst.

I was just about to ask. If C beats the A+B OS doesn't that technically beat A and B individually? Or is it just a counter to the A+B OS but loses to A or B? lol

It might or it might not. Crouch teching (tech and mash) loses to frame traps, and teching and mashing loses to frame traps. Barrier tech OS (throw and block) loses to delayed throw/TRM, but throwing doesn't lose to delayed throw. It's weird to try and abstract option selects because not all option selects aren't defined by the same gameplay mechanics.
 

4r5

Member
Nah you just get burst.

Last I checked, back in AC, 4/6H~D gives you throw, or burst on throw whiff. Will beat Block and reversal DP. But heavily loses to backdash or jump. This is something a char like Millia might use to callout a reversal. Get the knockdown + meter for setups. But carries it's own risk, since the burst piggybacks on a throw-intent, and the natural counter to throw tend to be heavy counters to bursts.
 

Zissou

Member
Who knows! We have 6 characters to go, and 4 months until the year ends. Neoxon keeps saying that Capcom said we'd know the cast before the year is done. I don't know the source on that, but it makes sense.


In the way I look at it, it's removing a decision. Let's say that you've already made the decision to run up and attack in some way. In Xrd, your OS options are:

P + Throw OS
K + Throw OS
H + Throw OS
HS + Throw OS
D + Throw OS (does this actually work?)

So 5 options to choose from (simplified so I don't have to type out dozens of attacks).

Now let's consider SFrd, a land where throws are tied to P + K, and there are no throw OSes. Your options are:

P
K
H
HS
D
Throw

So there are 6 options to choose from in SFrd, but only 5 in Xrd. And it doesn't really matter how many attacks there are - the throw OS is always going to be removing one option: the straight-up throw, because there's no reason to ever select it. Xrd's OS increases difficulty of execution (slightly) and complexity (slightly), but it doesn't increase depth. It's a slight decrease in depth, because you have one less option to consider.

You're altering the system mechanics though.

Using your format, I was imagining something like "In Xrd I decide to throw, but which of the four 'whiff' animations I get is up to me." With Faust, I might do just 6HS if I suspect they might backdash, I could do 6P+HS or 6K+HS if suspect they will jump, or I could do 6S+HS to avoid the risk them low profiling my 6P or standing K. I have varying options with different applications.
6P + HS (6P or throw)
6K + HS (5K or throw)
6S + HS (c.S or throw)
6HS (6HS or throw)
4HS (5HS or throw)

Now imagine the same situation where move priority is P < K < S < HS. They've removed the option select entirely. Now I only can throw in two ways, 6HS or 4HS, instead of the five listed above..
 
You're altering the system mechanics though.

Using your format, I was imagining something like "In Xrd I decide to throw, but which of the four 'whiff' animations I get is up to me." With Faust, I might do just 6HS if I suspect they might backdash, I could do 6P+HS or 6K+HS if suspect they will jump, or I could do 6S+HS to avoid the risk them low profiling my 6P or standing K. I have varying options with different applications.
6P + HS (6P or throw)
6K + HS (5K or throw)
6S + HS (c.S or throw)
6HS (6HS or throw)
4HS (5HS or throw)

Now imagine the same situation where move priority is P < K < S < HS. They've removed the option select entirely. Now I only can throw in two ways, 6HS or 4HS, instead of the five listed above..
Obviously, if you remove throw OSes, you are going to have fewer throw options. But your total number of decisions to consider is higher. Since your decisions are more exclusive without the OS, it also requires more skill to flourish.
 

OceanBlue

Member
Last I checked, back in AC, 4/6H~D gives you throw, or burst on throw whiff. Will beat Block and reversal DP. But heavily loses to backdash or jump. This is something a char like Millia might use to callout a reversal. Get the knockdown + meter for setups. But carries it's own risk, since the burst piggybacks on a throw-intent, and the natural counter to throw tend to be heavy counters to bursts.

Oh, that sounds like the proximity OS, right? You're either throwing or kara cancelling your 4/6H with burst. I've never thought about that lol. That's really neat.
 

Kikirin

Member
My simple question was this: if you are going for a throw tech in BlazBlue anyway, is there any reason you wouldn't OS that throw tech?

Assuming the throw tech info on the Dustloop wiki is still accurate, if you use an OS/fuzzy guard instead of doing an "honest" throw tech:
- Your throw tech window is smaller. (3f vs 16f)
- Your Throw Reject Miss state is longer. (27f vs 14f)

If you could consistently tech throws within that three-frame window, then you could probably always use it if you were intending to throw tech anyway. The risk for using it incorrectly, either in terms of poor timing or incorrectly reading a throw attempt, is being much more vulnerable to throws, but alternatively, it's less vulnerable to strikes or throw baits.
 
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