irfaanator
Banned
for me its more of what are the chances that capcom doesnt fuck this up somehow. Track record hasnt been so hot
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Fighting Game Headquarters |4| Cheers Love, the Anime's Here!
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for me its more of what are the chances that capcom doesnt fuck this up somehow. Track record hasnt been so hot
Just from where I'm sitting as a "fighting game historian" at this point assists aren't what make something a "versus" game to me. I generally just think of teams, super jumps, air dashes, lots of resources, gatling combos, etc. Assists have been there but they weren't a very central core mechanic until later. If you check out some TvC the comparisons to the trailer make a lot of sense. The game can have very similar mechanics and feels without assists being there.
Like I get if you want MvC2/3 style stuff you might be disappointed, but saying "it isn't a versus game" seems kind of absurd considering the large depth of mechanics the series has messed with.
Let's be real, that has a lot more to do with Capcom's execution on things rather than what they target IMO. The game not having MvC2/3 style mechanics doesn't make it bad, what can make it bad is just Capcom fucking up on executing fine mechanics or technical aspects.
The trailer was pretty technically unimpressive(I called it dogshit from that angle), but like I don't even know the button scheme or what a throw looks like or even how healthbars work yet.
Like I get if you want MvC2/3 style stuff you might be disappointed, but saying "it isn't a versus game" seems kind of absurd considering the large depth of mechanics the series has messed with.
Let's be real, that has a lot more to do with Capcom's execution on things rather than what they target IMO. The game not having MvC2/3 style mechanics doesn't make it bad, what can make it bad is just Capcom fucking up on executing fine mechanics or technical aspects.
The trailer was pretty technically unimpressive(I called it dogshit from that angle), but like I don't even know the button scheme or what a throw looks like or even how healthbars work yet.
irfaanator
Banned
yea I know, its just the major factor for me for not being hype about any new capcom fighting game.
After SFxT and SFV back to back I cannot blame you on that one.
Karsticles
Member
At this point I'm in the bargaining stages of my grief, and I would absolutely take a TvC-style game. To me, the #2 thing that makes a Marvel game fun is the assists. Without the assists, I'm sure my other favorite things will be dead as well, such as crazy mobility options, extremely high character power levels (can you imagine Dormammu in a game without assists?), and creative team interactions. All of that dies in a 2v2 game without assists. Maybe the mobility can be salvaged, but the rest is guaranteed to be dead.
In the high-level TvC I've watched, assists are a huge part of the game. It's pretty much the entire reason people pick Morrigan, for example.
ZeroTheShadow
Member
That's true. I played Zero/Morrigan in TVC & I picked Morrigan simply because of her assist.
direct_quote
Member
I'm actually ok with 2v2.. I somehow never fell in love with MvC2 and MvC3 3v3 style, and was more of a fan of MvC1 style. Plus they probably did this for budget reasons, so they could launch with less characters. 3v3 requires a larger starting roster...
Shouta
Member
Morrigan was picked for her assist, ya. I'd need to check tourney results but I don't recall her being very dominate though. I'd need to look up JP results but I recall Evo 2010 not having any Morrigans in Top 8.
Anyway, assists are much smaller concern in 2v2. They're still a part of the gameplay, obviously, but even TvC isn't necessarily built around them like MvC2 and MvC3. You can get away with not having that sort of synergy with your assist in 2v2 though it's obviously better to have it. Assists are transformative in the 3v3 format though and, IMO, that's where the love of them really comes from.
Karsticles
Member
For me, I love the intense, lightning-fast gameplay MvC2 and MvC3 offered. I don't think you can have anything like that without assists.
MiniBossBattle
Member
I like how assists create different neutral game plans like magneto with beam or rocks or missles with doom. I also like how assists allow characters like Haggar to get in.
Might as well be a tag game.
Might as well be a tag game.
Karsticles
Member
Reposting from the SFV thread:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cy0AbRqUsAIEXiu.jpg:large
That first pic does line up pretty well, at least. My first thought when seeing the outline was "one of those Russian hats..."
It is a tag game. Nothing more.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cy0AbRqUsAIEXiu.jpg:large
That first pic does line up pretty well, at least. My first thought when seeing the outline was "one of those Russian hats..."
It is a tag game. Nothing more.
This modern era of the FGC is coming into place. I wonder if Japan for instance, is only going to get weaker and weaker unless people like Momochi really commit to teaching younger players and doing whatever it takes to keep things going.
The U.S was and is a lot more hungry these days. We are always out looking in and have been known as the weakest region for a while. Du even said it himself that it's a full time job for him. Lots of U.S players are taking it as a full time job. Meanwhile in Japan, the arcade scene for the game doesn't exist and Daigo is more ambassador than player, he's already a winner even if he doesn't win tournaments. If Japan gets an arcade version it will probably elevate their region again.
Aris playing the latest RE7 demo is lovely. I haven't really been looking forward to any new games but definitely this. They are upping the horror and everything. I
The U.S was and is a lot more hungry these days. We are always out looking in and have been known as the weakest region for a while. Du even said it himself that it's a full time job for him. Lots of U.S players are taking it as a full time job. Meanwhile in Japan, the arcade scene for the game doesn't exist and Daigo is more ambassador than player, he's already a winner even if he doesn't win tournaments. If Japan gets an arcade version it will probably elevate their region again.
Aris playing the latest RE7 demo is lovely. I haven't really been looking forward to any new games but definitely this. They are upping the horror and everything. I
CommandThrower
Member
It wouldn't surprise me if one if the Infinity Stones granted characters a pseudo assist.
I'm imagining Johnny Cage's Stunt Double variation from MKX, where he shoots off projectiles that are actually his Shadow Kick and Shadow Upper specials.
I'm imagining Johnny Cage's Stunt Double variation from MKX, where he shoots off projectiles that are actually his Shadow Kick and Shadow Upper specials.
Thomasorus
Member
No assist is a bummer but I can understand why they went this way. It's true that picking 3 characters, 3 assists among 9 of them + your gem would be overkill. And if they kept the assists but would not let you choose among 3 of them, people would have been mad so removing them entirely might be a better idea.
I can deal with it if they keep the creativity and some of the stupidity you get in these games. Things like fly mode, dash cancel combos, Dormammu crazy shit, Wolverine crossup speed... Now that assists are gone, we really need this kept or it will feel like SF5 where V-triggers are almost all disappointing because they feel tame and you have the feeling you discovered everything the character can do in one day.
Also we'll see with the others characters but I really hope they will avoid the Injustice animation syndrome where characters are flying and it's like they are sausages with arms trying to reach something by lying down in the air. It has no strength/physics/energy at all and looks stupid. Captain Marvel has a bit of this in the trailer and I hope it won't go this way for other characters. Even if they can fly, keep their feet on the ground and work those animations!
I can deal with it if they keep the creativity and some of the stupidity you get in these games. Things like fly mode, dash cancel combos, Dormammu crazy shit, Wolverine crossup speed... Now that assists are gone, we really need this kept or it will feel like SF5 where V-triggers are almost all disappointing because they feel tame and you have the feeling you discovered everything the character can do in one day.
Also we'll see with the others characters but I really hope they will avoid the Injustice animation syndrome where characters are flying and it's like they are sausages with arms trying to reach something by lying down in the air. It has no strength/physics/energy at all and looks stupid. Captain Marvel has a bit of this in the trailer and I hope it won't go this way for other characters. Even if they can fly, keep their feet on the ground and work those animations!
The only thing I'm worried about concerning mvc:i is the game having injustice looking animations but that can be cleaned up since that was clearly very early footage. The only character model that looked halfway decent was captain marvel's. Everyone else look completely unfinished and there wasn't even a UI to speak of. No assists is a bummer but I don't think it'll be detrimental to my personal enjoyment of the game. I like however 2v2 because now I'm not forced to learn a 3rd character lol. Overall I'm excited about what the game will be when it's done but not to hot on the footage we got today mainly caused it looked rough graphically and those animations.
sixteen-bit
Member
i hope they mod in Cap Com assist
I feel like sigmaahs fanfiction is our lives right now
Seems like it could be real.
just start with sfv and branch off from there
Even in his fan fiction, Marvel would've had assists in it.
notworksafe
Member
dear god karst, why did you a bunch of spambots to the discord chat? we've already got yams and shin there to cover all the possible obnoxious spammy bullshit
notworksafe
Member
mvci seems so early i can't even get emotional over any potential changes. they don't seem to have controls, ui, graphics, mechanics past the very bare basics, or even a roster worked out yet.
the one thing i do wonder is how this thing is going to be ready for release in a year.
marvel probably wouldn't let them put it out in an sfv style state, right? i don't know what sort of quality control marvel exercises over their other games.
the one thing i do wonder is how this thing is going to be ready for release in a year.
marvel probably wouldn't let them put it out in an sfv style state, right? i don't know what sort of quality control marvel exercises over their other games.
ColonialHawk
Member
If Marvel puts up the money like Sony did for SFV, I dont see why not... And maybe there's more to it than they what they showed.
notworksafe
Member
yeah i'm sure there is more than they showed, but that GI article was troubling. a lot of the stuff they talked about was "the team isn't sure how this is going to work" which could just mean "the team isn't saying shit" but who knows with capcom
early MvCI footage seemed fine for what it was, but it was late
tourney went on way too long with way too much time in between matches
akuma's stage & music from his trailer is the first time i've thought stage & stage music in SFV was actually good.
decided to take advantage of the PS4 game awards sale after watching everything last night and it's over. not paying full price.
tourney went on way too long with way too much time in between matches
akuma's stage & music from his trailer is the first time i've thought stage & stage music in SFV was actually good.
decided to take advantage of the PS4 game awards sale after watching everything last night and it's over. not paying full price.
I wouldn't be surprised if Marvel covered a good chunk of the bill. This is just marketing to them after all and they spend multiple times what this probably costs just on marketing for their movies.
ZeroTheShadow
Member
Can't wait for people to start calling MVCI the honest Marvel game and people start saying shit like "Frauds will be exposed cause you don't have assists to make up for lack of fundimentals"
Even tho, Sony put a lot of money in SFV and we all know what happened. The game looks in very early development and we are less than a year from releasing
shaowebb
Member
There actually are no assists in Arcana Heart. Its cool due to the ability to equip an entire moveset of tools onto anyone and homing dash cancels with launcher combos.
Assist based fighters you can play in anime are as follows.
Nitroplus Blasterz: One character. 2 assists. Can call both assists at once. Assists are insanely powerful at times and they balance it with assists having different cooldown times. Game has a lot of cancel systems, is very fast and marvel like. Air dashes, bursts, short hops, no launchers, and a very very neat shield mechanic.
Dengeki Bunko Fighting Climax Ignition: One Character. One assist that has at least 2 different ways to summon it. Uses a stock system called Trump cards where activating one turns on a meter than drains and grants you increased combo options and stats. Activating bursts in this states extends meter. Has a 3rd character selectable that allows you to choose between one of several bonuses between rounds to adjust to folks. Air dashes, no launchers. Bursts, highly footsie based. Fairly fast and a bit more footsied.
Blade Arcus From Shining: Two character teams. No tag combos, dhc or anything. You pick one to play and one to be an assist per round. Switch if you are losing. Each partner has 3 strenghts of assist and you have 4 bars just for assists that fill. Spend for lvl1,2,or 3 assists as you see fit. Universal cancel mechanic, dashes, no real air dash, no burst but an assist based defensive assist call reversal. Highly footsie based. Combos are smaller.
Aquapazza: One Character. One Assist. Assist is always wandering around in background. No Airdash but it varies who has double jumps steps or dashes. Decent length combos. Decent footsies. Guard cancel tools and wall bounces are its main things. It utilizes an emotion system that heavily penalizes for too much defensive action and yields bonuses to offensive actions. Can get lopsided fast due to this. Basically its to force you to use a very special defensive tool over blocking. It can get hype, but matches become runaways easily as this penalty system isn't as back and forth as ones in things like UNIEL.
Vanguard Princess: One character. One assist. Assist moves around screen for setups before you call it. Assists have 4 attacks. Assists have a mechanic to nullify other assists and neutralize projectiles. Parry system. Fairly fast and footsied. Visually its got clutter like Aquapazza due to all the background stuff and assists walking around.
Skullgirls: Its mahvel baby. Your best choice for a marvel like experience overall.
I cant remember if Ougon Musou Kyoku CROSS(or Golden Fantasia Cross as its releasing as soon) has assists or is just a tag fighter. That game has some of the craziest mechanics I've ever seen so I'd be here awhile trying to recall all its boosts, burst like systems, metaworld mechanics , taunts that heal and other insanity. I dont think it was assist based though. If you like crazy though I say get it later.
TLDR: Closest choice...Skullgirls by a mile for Marvel stuff. Second best is Nitroplus Blasterz as it is the fastest and most insane by far of the choices even though its not a team fighter. DFCI is behind hit but is by far more tame and footsies. N+ has cancels out the ass, the shield system, special states and 2 assists called at the same time.
Oh, I thought some of those ghost things worked like assists.
notworksafe
Member
yep, that's what got me caught up in the hype. adding moves/mechanics/buffs along with whatever activation ability you get with the gems is going to be cool if that's the route they go with the gems. just seeing the teleport dash with the time has got me thinking of all the other cool abilities they could add with the other five gems.
shaowebb
Member
Ghost things...? Do you mean Arcana? Those are just the names of each block of moves and tools you can equip to folks. Pick a character, then next menu pick an "Arcana" or in laymens terms , Pick an entire character's worth of moves and mechanics to tack onto your base character. Only things hurting this title IMO are how little it actually teaches new players a single damned thing about its mechanics or what Arcanas even give you at the select screen and its suuuuuuper awful Moe aesthetic.
I play EVERYTHING though. Its aesthetic be damned, its probably the deepest and craziest fighter for customization I've ever seen. Had it a fitting license like DBZ (that would look right with homing dashes and the super jumping) it'd be one of the top performers IMO.
Definitely one that earns a nod of respect when looking over its mechanics.
ColonialHawk
Member
Yes, but i dont remember if they ever said a specific time.
This time will certainly be different as Capcom has Marvel watching over their shoulder. Marvel not gonna be caught slippin'.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
Is that game getting patched? I lost interests in playing and watching due to how bad the balance has gotten and how exploited the game is. I don't think a ps4 port is going to fix that for me or anyone who feels the same.
To me, marvel is a bunch of things:
1) Building a custom team in a strategic way due to meaningful synergy in terms of assists, character roles (point, anchor, assist, etc.), DHC compatibility, team supers, resource production/consumption etc.
2) Extreme movement options are common, and vertical and horizontal spacing and movement are both extremely important.
3) Improvisation in terms of general strategy, hit confirms, etc. is more important than in many other fighters. This is a result of the flexibility of the engine, and also due to the constant possibility that somebody will use a specific team combination you have no experience against, so rote memorization of match-up specifics is somewhat deemphasized.
4) Strategically calling your own assists in a way that minimizes risk and maximizes your own upside while looking to exploit poor assist calls of your opponent and punish them for leaving their assists vulnerable. Knowing when to fight their point character or their assist character is important. Using your assist and point simultaneously to control different areas of the screen is important.
5) Significant resource management is important to mastery of the game.
Obviously, we don't know a lot about MvC:i, but with what we know so far, I am very skeptical it's going to have these elements.
1) Building a custom team in a strategic way due to meaningful synergy in terms of assists, character roles (point, anchor, assist, etc.), DHC compatibility, team supers, resource production/consumption etc.
2) Extreme movement options are common, and vertical and horizontal spacing and movement are both extremely important.
3) Improvisation in terms of general strategy, hit confirms, etc. is more important than in many other fighters. This is a result of the flexibility of the engine, and also due to the constant possibility that somebody will use a specific team combination you have no experience against, so rote memorization of match-up specifics is somewhat deemphasized.
4) Strategically calling your own assists in a way that minimizes risk and maximizes your own upside while looking to exploit poor assist calls of your opponent and punish them for leaving their assists vulnerable. Knowing when to fight their point character or their assist character is important. Using your assist and point simultaneously to control different areas of the screen is important.
5) Significant resource management is important to mastery of the game.
Obviously, we don't know a lot about MvC:i, but with what we know so far, I am very skeptical it's going to have these elements.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
Supposedly the ps4 port plays the same, has the same infinites etc. The game's meta has gotten a lot more interesting in the last 1-2 years, as people keep finding more creative ways to build teams and make use of all the options in the game. Characters considered mid or low tier before are winning tournaments now. It's a hell of a tough game to learn for high level play though.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
Zissou, I like your list of what makes Marvel shine as such a unique and fun series. Bolded text below is mine.
Yeah well that list is the same for me. I think movement options and resource management will still be there but assists and team synergies aren't going to be a focal point anymore.
For a lot of people Marvel and VS series are different things. Hell even within the franchise it has been very different.
Every Versus game starting from Children of the Atom added something new to the series but individually most of them felt half baked with their ideas. You had assists but low options from them. You had 2v2 but not much care for synergy. It wasn't until Marvel 2 where all these ideas culminated and it created a monster that was hard for anyone to ignore. It made people look fighting games in a new way, sort of like how MOBAs made people look strategy games in a new way. Marvel 2 never realized its own potential and Marvel 3 got a lot closer but still a way off.
Marvel 2 and Marvel 3 are by far the most popular and played of the VS games (both competitively and casually). Yet they are also the most complex and difficult to play. It's tough to go into these games and not have your mind swirling with possibilities... and a lot of people like that.
I had fun with MSH. I had fun and played a lot of Marvel 1. I liked X Men vs SF and MSH vs SF. But I loved Marvel 2 and Marvel 3. It's almost fair to say that Marvel 2 and 3 are the true MvC games and the others are just prototypes or building blocks for MvC.
Now where is Viscant in all of this?
For a lot of people Marvel and VS series are different things. Hell even within the franchise it has been very different.
Every Versus game starting from Children of the Atom added something new to the series but individually most of them felt half baked with their ideas. You had assists but low options from them. You had 2v2 but not much care for synergy. It wasn't until Marvel 2 where all these ideas culminated and it created a monster that was hard for anyone to ignore. It made people look fighting games in a new way, sort of like how MOBAs made people look strategy games in a new way. Marvel 2 never realized its own potential and Marvel 3 got a lot closer but still a way off.
Marvel 2 and Marvel 3 are by far the most popular and played of the VS games (both competitively and casually). Yet they are also the most complex and difficult to play. It's tough to go into these games and not have your mind swirling with possibilities... and a lot of people like that.
I had fun with MSH. I had fun and played a lot of Marvel 1. I liked X Men vs SF and MSH vs SF. But I loved Marvel 2 and Marvel 3. It's almost fair to say that Marvel 2 and 3 are the true MvC games and the others are just prototypes or building blocks for MvC.
Now where is Viscant in all of this?
I'm worried that infinite will not be a proper marvel successor gameplay-wise (what little info we have so far seems to indicate this, unforunately). Regardless, tournament organizers will probably replace umvc3 with infinite since capcom will obviously position it as the next 'proper' vs. series game, and there will effectively be no game that scratches that marvel itch with an active tournament presence any longer. In a world without infinite, the future of competitive assist-based fighting was very much in doubt, but infinite's existence could kill it outright.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
I'm pretty much in agreement with you here. Every Marvel game going back to COTA has tweaked or added some new game mechanic, but mvc2 is where they perfected it. It's why mvc3 kept all of the elements that made mvc2 great, even though they added some weird shit on top of it.
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