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[enzo_gt]

I'm scared because I associate team-building with the complexity and longevity of MvC games and that seems like the direct target of a lot of the concessions they've made.

I think I just said this the other day but I really do find when I play with casuals they have difficulty picking the 3rd character after the first two, so maybe there's an effect of that sort they're tapping into.

That said, it still looks pretty kinetic and very MvC-esque in the combos, and it will almost certainly get the best post-launch support the series has ever gotten with how the industry is now, so I'm not really worried that I won't enjoy it. I started at MvC2 before I played previous Vs. games though and it was hard for me to adjust then, but who knows. This looks like it's own beast.

 

[Infinite]

Supposedly the ps4 port plays the same, has the same infinites etc. The game's meta has gotten a lot more interesting in the last 1-2 years, as people keep finding more creative ways to build teams and make use of all the options in the game. Characters considered mid or low tier before are winning tournaments now. It's a hell of a tough game to learn for high level play though.

Got you. Well hopefully the ports gives that community a shot in the arm and more stream time for them. The PC port is gonna be huge for mods.

 

[shaowebb]

I doubt they'll back down on "no partner assists" given the statement made was parallel to my own comment that assists can shoehorn you into very strict character pairings or reduce some cast to "assist tier" choices. You're best hope if you publicize loudly during development that you need assists would be to shoot for the universal assist options that any team could select. You'll need a way to punish them though otherwise bad assist calls mean nothing so likely a lockout like P4A's penalty for punishing persona calls would be the most likely solution.

As I see it currently, this is your best thing to yell for if you want any chance of assists in the title period. They seem pretty core founded on appealing to casual players and as such assists that shoehorn casuals into having to learn characters they never intended to aren't likely to return. Best bet is to hope for universal assists any team can select and hope the developer hears you in time.

 

[Zissou]

The reason people are often 'forced' to pick certain assist characters in marvel 3 are:

1) Balance issues, i.e., a character has such a specific deficiency as a point character that only a small handful of assists make that character viable.

and

2) Many characters have straight-up garbage assist options, so you're effectively limited to picking at least one of a small subset of characters with a properly decent neutral game assist.

You could address both these issues while leaving assists as a mechanic intact- improve the balance of all characters as point characters and give every character multiple strong neutral game assist options. You could keep assists while throwing the doors wide open in terms of letting people play what they want and still have a proper team.

 

[Pompadour]

I doubt they'll back down on "no partner assists" given the statement made was parallel to my own comment that assists can shoehorn you into very strict character pairings or reduce some cast to "assist tier" choices. You're best hope if you publicize loudly during development that you need assists would be to shoot for the universal assist options that any team could select. You'll need a way to punish them though otherwise bad assist calls mean nothing so likely a lockout like P4A's penalty for punishing persona calls would be the most likely solution.

As I see it currently, this is your best thing to yell for if you want any chance of assists in the title period. They seem pretty core founded on appealing to casual players and as such assists that shoehorn casuals into having to learn characters they never intended to aren't likely to return. Best bet is to hope for universal assists any team can select and hope the developer hears you in time.

If the game is going to be 2v2 then they should just let you use all three of your partner's assists at any time instead of having to choose one at the character select screen. That way they can cover their bases and give you more options so you don't have to pick a specific character with a specific assist to make your team work. Of course, there's no guarantee the teammate you want will have the assist you need but if they stick to some broad categories like lockdown/reversal/etc. then it should work a little better.

That being said I'm curious if the game will be less balanced because Marvel has a lot of characters that are often only good because of a single assist so there may be a large chunk of the cast that no one ever picks in this game.

 

[shaowebb]

Biggest thing NO ONE is bringing up is that all you saw was airdash from MMX and single ground dashing from the whole crew.
WE HAVE NO IDEA IF WAVEDASHING OR TRIANGLE DASHING EXIST YET.

The TVC comparisons may die quickly if those two are back on deck.

If the game is going to be 2v2 then they should just let you use all three of your partner's assists at any time instead of having to choose one at the character select screen. That way they can cover their bases and give you more options so you don't have to pick a specific character with a specific assist to make your team work. Of course, there's no guarantee the teammate you want will have the assist you need but if they stick to some broad categories like lockdown/reversal/etc. then it should work a little better.

That being said I'm curious if the game will be less balanced because Marvel has a lot of characters that are often only good because of a single assist so there may be a large chunk of the cast that no one ever picks in this game.

I've seen this done before. In DFCI choosing an assist meant you could use one of several assist moves they had. In Blade Arcus you chose a partner and they had up to 3 assist moves to use (though it used assist stock systems and each cost differently).

It doesn't really alleviate what the developer stated about asisst tier or team shoehorning though. You just end up with folks like Dr. Doom quite often who have several really versatile assists so folks rarely choose folks for a single assist they need at all...even less so than Marvel I'd say. You go for the widest spread of overall good and thats it in those games. It seemed to lead into even more streamlining of assist tier folks than had you only one tool to select.

 

[Immortal Technique]

The U.S was and is a lot more hungry these days. We are always out looking in and have been known as the weakest region for a while. Du even said it himself that it's a full time job for him. Lots of U.S players are taking it as a full time job. Meanwhile in Japan, the arcade scene for the game doesn't exist and Daigo is more ambassador than player, he's already a winner even if he doesn't win tournaments. If Japan gets an arcade version it will probably elevate their region again.
I

Japan had 6 of the top 8. They're doing fine. Daigo had a full year and never really ascended though. That is disappointing.

 

[shaowebb]

Hmm...also no cancel mechanics stated yet unless Gem activation works as such. That could also be very big.

Oh well. From here on I'm not sure if I'm more hype for roster or mechanic news.

 

[Dahbomb]

The issue of people picking Dr Doom is not an issue of 3v3 game play but rather a balancing issue. Ideally everyone SHOULD have 3 strong assists and also playable in different positions so that you can pick 3 characters you like versus picking 2 and then slapping Doom on to the team.

That goes to the whole "assist tier characters" as well. Sentinel being a support character only is more a balance issue than something that emerged because it was 3v3. There are teams like Dual Kevin's which can play in any order and every character contributes as both as a support and a point. In fact, Dual Kevin's team is the ideal team construction that these games hope for but don't always reach because of balance issues. It's why these type of games need more aggressive balancing than regular fighting games.



My main hope for MvC I is that each character is properly fleshed out in options. There is no excuse now, I don't want any lopsided match ups where one character is flying around the screen and another is flopping around with no ground or air dash like Arthur.

 

[Malice215]

I'm looking forward to a game without X-factor and hidden missiles.

 

[Infinite]

I'm looking forward to a game without X-factor and hidden missiles.

Can't wait for people to start calling MVCI the honest Marvel game and people start saying shit like "Frauds will be exposed cause you don't have assists to make up for lack of fundimentals"

🤔

 

[shaowebb]

The issue of people picking Dr Doom is not an issue of 3v3 game play but rather a balancing issue. Ideally everyone SHOULD have 3 strong assists and also playable in different positions so that you can pick 3 characters you like versus picking 2 and then slapping Doom on to the team.

That goes to the whole "assist tier characters" as well. Sentinel being a support character only is more a balance issue than something that emerged because it was 3v3. There are teams like Dual Kevin's which can play in any order and every character contributes as both as a support and a point. In fact, Dual Kevin's team is the ideal team construction that these games hope for but don't always reach because of balance issues. It's why these type of games need more aggressive balancing than regular fighting games.



My main hope for MvC I is that each character is properly fleshed out in options. There is no excuse now, I don't want any lopsided match ups where one character is flying around the screen and another is flopping around with no ground or air dash like Arthur.

I agree with all of this. Honestly if this IS a game where everyone has an airdash and a ground dash with no wavedashing or tridashing in the air then you'll see a really tight footsie game. It wont be like MVC3 was but it gets VERY FAST out there in this setup and very exciting. Its all TVC used even if folks later found a really awkward wavedash. It amounts to that fun SF moment of reading folks and getting in their head by shuffling around.

 

[enzo_gt]

I'm looking forward to a game without X-factor and hidden missiles.

X-Factor is there, it just seems it's benefits have been spread over a selection of X-Factors lol

I'm not very familiar with MSH, what were the effects each of the gems gave in that game?

 

[Kumubou]

X-Factor is there, it just seems it's benefits have been spread over a selection of X-Factors lol

I'm not very familiar with MSH, what were the effects each of the gems gave in that game?

Given what little we've seen, it's closer to how arcanas work in Arcana Heart more than anything, and while they did give passive and active damage/defense/speed buffs they were NOWHERE near as strong as X-Factor. That and arcanas don't get more powerful as you take damage, which is where the real shitshow comes from in MvC3. X-Factor would not be nearly as much of a problem if levels 2 and 3 didn't exist.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

I don't have cable (and neither does the game, haha) but I guess they'll be showing off 2 more characters during tonight's ESPN2 broadcast.

 

[NEO0MJ]

Definitely one that earns a nod of respect when looking over its mechanics.

Still too spooky for me. I actually bought it for Vita so I can keep my shame secret but man I didn't play it for long.

 

[Rhapsody]

Sort of wonder if the game will let us do specials on whiff and then tag instantly instead of a raw tag kind of thing. Make that sort of like an assist, I dunno. No assists is disappointing, so I hope the gem system picks up the slack. Hoping we get some passive abilities right from the start instead of needing to activate its power. I'd rather not have just selectable XF and that's it.

X-Factor is there, it just seems it's benefits have been spread over a selection of X-Factors lol

I'm not very familiar with MSH, what were the effects each of the gems gave in that game?

Power - more damage
Mind - super bar regen
Soul - Health regen
Time - speed up
Space - armor I think
Reality - projectiles come out depending on the strength of normals you press

 

[bangbang i'm a timpani]

well guess i'm stikcing with hearthstone as the only game that i can theorycraft with.

 

[Dahbomb]

well guess i'm stikcing with hearthstone as the only game that i can theorycraft with.

Hearthstone and theory craft... Ayy lmao!

If you want to theory craft then play Path of Exile.

 

[Karsticles]

well guess i'm stikcing with hearthstone as the only game that i can theorycraft with.

If you haven't tried Duelyst, do so. The number of viable archetypes in that game far outpaces Hearthstone.

 

[Seyavesh]

waiting to see if there's a real fly screen/SJing in the game as to confirm if there's wavedashing/good movement (as the latter is required when the former exists)

a marvel without fast, interesting movement is doomed to failure and the height X launched cap. marvel to looked pretty low (only slightly above normal jump height) but the zoomed in camera and footage cutting out make it hard to tell for certain

edit:
more or less all i can really say about that gameplay trailer is that nothing in it really gave any me nor any of the people at the meetup i was at any kind of positive impression. like, watching that trailer while having marvel 3 loaded up on both 360 and ps4 underneath the big screen it was showing on lead to pretty quick comparisons for how absurdly mediocre the game looks at the moment considering it is supposed to be a full generation ahead of mvc3.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

Thinking about the possible roster... none of this is a wish list. This is just who I think is most likely to be included in the game. It's mostly no-brainer stuff.

• I think Captain America and Hulk are 100% guaranteed to be in there. Depending on roster size we might get several more Avengers as well.
• Chun Li will almost certainly be in there.
• Dante will probably be back, although I don't know which version of Dante they will use. Reboot version seems the most likely. If he doesn't make it in, Vergil will probably be there instead.
• There will probably be at least one Darkstalkers representative. So probably Morrigan and/or Felicia.
• There will probably be someone from Resident Evil. Either something from RE7, a returning Wesker/Chris, or possibly Leon, maybe as a variant on Chris.
• I don't pay attention to the Marvel universe outside of X-Men so I can't speculate much on what other Marvel characters will be there. Whoever has a current or upcoming movie I guess.
• Spider-Man would be a big omission if he's gone. Whether he's there depends on what sort of approach Marvel and Sony take for this.
• There will probably be a few surprise/obscure characters thrown in there too.

 

[Sigmaah]

Even in his fan fiction, Marvel would've had assists in it.

Lmao yes it would have....

At the end of the day it is a bummer... BUT!

I got X so I ain't even mad Ima be playing the shit outta this game.

 

[Seyavesh]

oh also this is a stretch but based on the animations looking like they're just snapping to the middle of active frames during chains/ only being keyframes with no transition between each attack i'm gonna say mvci is western developed

the general aesthetic also suggests that to me, especially w. x's dead face and glossy body not really matching up

idk, just the aesthetic style in that trailer screams "western fg developer" to me. even the hitsparks got that 'i guess make it just like an actual big spark' look that every western made FG has

 

[Parallax Scroll]

oh also this is a stretch but based on the animations looking like they're just snapping to the middle of active frames during chains/ only being keyframes with no transition between each attack i'm gonna say mvci is western developed

the general aesthetic also suggests that to me, especially w. x's dead face and glossy body not really matching up

idk, just the aesthetic style in that trailer screams "western fg developer" to me. even the hitsparks got that 'uhh i guess make it just like an actual big spark' look that every western made FG has

It mostly just looks unfinished to me. Both for the character models and the animations.

 

[direct_quote]

I don't have cable (and neither does the game, haha) but I guess they'll be showing off 2 more characters during tonight's ESPN2 broadcast.

Dante or Gene please..

 

[NEO0MJ]

If we're making wishlists I'd love to have Jin Saotome back for Capcom side and the introduction of Mrs. Marvel on, well, Marvel's side.

 

[FSLink]

Morrigan was picked for her assist, ya. I'd need to check tourney results but I don't recall her being very dominate though. I'd need to look up JP results but I recall Evo 2010 not having any Morrigans in Top 8.

Anyway, assists are much smaller concern in 2v2. They're still a part of the gameplay, obviously, but even TvC isn't necessarily built around them like MvC2 and MvC3. You can get away with not having that sort of synergy with your assist in 2v2 though it's obviously better to have it. Assists are transformative in the 3v3 format though and, IMO, that's where the love of them really comes from.

Yeah, honestly outside of Morrigan I can only recall some assists in TvC like Ryu Hadoken and Alex Slash Elbow mostly being used as a combo extender, which could easily be replaced with the Tag system they got here.

I'm curious to see how the Tag system will work. Could I use Chun-Li's Kikoken, then instantly tag into a character like Iron Fist with no projectile to help him get in or is it strictly like TAC/SFxT tag where it's in the middle of a combo? Really want to hear more about the mechanics in general.

 

[Dahbomb]

Only way Marvel Infinite is doomed for failure is if all the following happen:

*The roster isn't good. I think the roster will be good. I think the Capcom side will be very good and the Marvel will have all the staple MCU characters which is good enough. Some casuals will be turned off by the no X Men thing but in the end it will have enough recognizable characters for it to sell.

*If the single player modes do not deliver. They are putting a big emphasis on this from the get go. If they are really billing it as a game for casuals then they need to knock the single player modes out of the park. Capcom has not done that as of late so we'll see how that works.

*If the netcode is trash again. Can't afford to have bad netcode in this day and age.

*If the graphics are not significantly better than Marvel 3. I think they will be when all is said and done. I think the cut, bad angle trailer did the game a disservice and it will look a lot better in person when playing in a live match. I think the models for Captain Marvel and Iron Man look quite nice.

*If there is some big controversy around the game at around launch. Something like on disc DLC, DRMs,Cross Assault fiasco, rootkit or anything that puts a bad light on the game at or near launch has a big impact. That's the time that people are reading online reviews the most and just one of these things can make those user reviews tank hard.

*There's no bull crap microtransactions or unfairly priced DLCs. The game is a FULL PRICED PRODUCT, you can't fill it up with too many microtransactions and such. People want $60 worth of content from the game on day 1.


Notice how none of these have to do with game play mechanics and balance. Capcom isn't sweating that people like Dahbomb, Seyavesh. and God's Beard may not like the mechanics changes... that's not really who they are after anymore. And even people who don't like the mechanics will end up buying it anyway because initially everyone around them will be playing it and they would want to get in on the action.

That might impact the game's long term competitive viability but I think that if they just patch it enough that the game will be competitive enough that people will play it for some time... until the next Marvel game. As has been true thus far... only a Marvel game can truly kill a Marvel game.



As far as the game's actual mechanics are concerned, we don't know a ton about the game.

Are we going to have Advanced Guarding/Push Blocking in the game? Can't have the same one from Marvel 3 because that would give huge advantage to zoners in this game. Without assists it's hard to keep the offense up and the push block in Marvel 3 pushed you back a lot.

What about Variable Counters/Alpha Counters? Are those in the game? If so which move will the characters use when the come out?

Hell we don't even know about the control scheme right now.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

*The roster isn't good. I think the roster will be good. I think the Capcom side will be very good and the Marvel will have all the staple MCU characters which is good enough. Some casuals will be turned off by the no X Men thing but in the end it will have enough recognizable characters for it to sell.

I give absolutely zero fucks about any Marvel characters that aren't X-Men related. So they're making a game where an entire half of the roster is made up of characters I'm not interested in. I doubt I'm the only one, and no X-Men is gonna alienate some people.

 

[Professor Beef]

It mostly just looks unfinished to me. Both for the character models and the animations.

Probably because it is...

 

[Beats]

They're talking about the game here now: https://www.twitch.tv/playstation

 

[Seyavesh]

yeah doomed to failure was bad wording on my part, should be more like "ill despise it at every single level if it's like that, which is unfortunate"

also i was thinking about how kinderparty posted that capcom's probably gonna support curleh moustache and exhibition events for mvc3 while mvc4 is being developed and reached a silly thought
if there is no fly screen, that probably means there's no 8way airdash, which means there's no trijump mixups
....which is what curleh moustache is more or less named after, right? magneto fucking you up with trijumps and boxjumps into super gross resets. assuming capcom does actually support curleh events for mvc4 then that's gonna be a kinda funny deal, especially with the whole 'no mutants/magneto' possibility alongside that

It mostly just looks unfinished to me. Both for the character models and the animations.

something like having transition frames/smoothing frames accounted for on chained animations is like a really ground level thing that happens from the get-go. it's not something that's put in later as sprinkles on top, y'know?
you can see it in the very first mvc3 footage release (with different hitsparks and everything) that shit's not like that. i have no doubt you could go to alpha footage.
anyhow, it's a stretch guess but i'm totally gonna go "i fuckin' called it i'm a GENIUS' if i'm right

They're talking about the game here now: https://www.twitch.tv/playstation

thanks for the link. they just said they have some of the original devs of COTA/MSH on the game, which is curious. who's left from that era in design? i always associated neo_g with that stuff first and foremost

edit:
lol, "[because a third character doesn't add that much], the infinity stones are more strategic than a third character"

"yeah we're trying to make the controls more accessible to players, especially on controllers. you're not gonna have to spend 200-500 dollars on a custom stick to go to capcom cup"
....right after nuckledu just won CC oh my god im dying

 

[Parallax Scroll]

They're talking about the game here now: https://www.twitch.tv/playstation

It sounds like the game is being developed in Japan.

 

[Kadey]

Justin tweeted roster leak of SFV. Did anyone catch before it got deleted?

 

[Tripon]

It sounds like the game is being developed in Japan.

What, discord shaq said Iron Galaxy. 😤

Akuma isn't in DOA either? 🐵

 

[CO_Andy]

Justin tweeted roster leak of SFV. Did anyone catch before it got deleted?

you mean this one?

 

[Dahbomb]

Here we go with the PR lip service.

Trashing on previous games and mechanics to hype up the new game. Classic PR tactics. Gee I wonder where I have seen that before...


This Infinity Stone mechanic better be the shit for them to axe 3v3 + assists for it.

 

[shaowebb]

I think PSX just said on twitch 2 new characters will be revealed tonight after they replay the gameplay trailer. Neat!

 

[Parallax Scroll]

Here we go with the PR lip service.

Trashing on previous games and mechanics to hype up the new game. Classic PR tactics. Gee I wonder where I have seen that before...


This Infinity Stone mechanic better be the shit for them to axe 3v3 + assists for it.

As much as I don't like the series going in this direction, I get it. Whenever I've played mvc3 with new/casual players, they're always intimidated by the character select screen alone. You gotta pick 3 characters and pick 3 assists? Capcom decided to simplify that this time and it makes sense for getting new players into the game.

 

[Beats]

I don't remember MVC3 being all that bad on pad. Enough face buttons for all attack buttons plus shoulder buttons for assist stuff.

 

[Karsticles]

I don't remember MVC3 being all that bad on pad. Enough face buttons for all attack buttons plus shoulder buttons for assist stuff.

Their mouths were filled with shit the entire time. Like...hello, Fanatiq?

 

[Dahbomb]

As much as I don't like the series going in this direction, I get it. Whenever I've played mvc3 with new/casual players, they're always intimidated by the character select screen alone. You gotta pick 3 characters and pick 3 assists? Capcom decided to simplify that this time and it makes sense for getting new players into the game.

And they could've simplified this further by making this like MSH and just select an Infinity Stone.

They went with a half way point where they went 2v2 + Stone. That's still going to be a problem for casuals who can't even learn to play one character well enough, let alone two.

In fact... casuals are still going to get worked in this game and complain about long combos and broken characters in Marvel games.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

Personal anecdote, but mvc 2/3 are the only fighters I'm completely unable to play on pad. I have to use stick so I can get those 6 buttons all laid out on the right.

 

[Sigmaah]

And they could've simplified this further by making this like MSH and just select an Infinity Stone.

They went with a half way point where they went 2v2 + Stone. That's still going to be a problem for casuals who can't even learn to play one character well enough, let alone two.

In fact... casuals are still going to get worked in this game and complain about long combos and broken characters in Marvel games.

SO WE MAHVEL BAYYBEE!!!

One less character to learn which kinda sucks for me but whatever. MMX/Sigma dream team here I come!

 

[direct_quote]

Personal anecdote, but mvc 2/3 are the only fighters I'm completely unable to play on pad. I have to use stick so I can get those 6 buttons all laid out on the right.

I play MvC3 on PS3 pad. But I can't really play flight characters well (but Fanatiq plays Magneto with pad so??).

Also I wonder if SFV not selling well maybe added to MvC4 being 2 v 2. Add another casaulity of SFV to the list lol (first being DMC5 reveal at E3 "supposedly", never confirmed though).

 

[Dahbomb]

Both Marvel 3 and SFV are perfectly playable on pad. SFV I would argue plays even better on pad and Du just won Capcom Cup with it.

So I am not sure what this magical control scheme is that is going to make it even easier to play on pad. Maybe 4 attack buttons MAX and them simplifying QCF motions to MK style Down, Forward motions that are easier on D-pad.

 

[Seyavesh]

Both Marvel 3 and SFV are perfectly playable on pad. SFV I would argue plays even better on pad and Du just won Capcom Cup with it.

So I am not sure what this magical control scheme is that is going to make it even easier to play on pad. Maybe 4 attack buttons MAX and them simplifying QCF motions to MK style Down, Forward motions that are easier on D-pad.

one button specials, smash style but retaining lmhs

instead of assist buttons you have 2 special buttons, or maybe a special and a super button

 

[Parallax Scroll]

Both Marvel 3 and SFV are perfectly playable on pad. SFV I would argue plays even better on pad and Du just won Capcom Cup with it.

So I am not sure what this magical control scheme is that is going to make it even easier to play on pad. Maybe 4 attack buttons MAX and them simplifying QCF motions to MK style Down, Forward motions that are easier on D-pad.

4 attack buttons, a 5th for tag, and a 6th for your power stone? idk

Note that Capcom doesn't know either. They haven't finalized the control scheme.

 

[shaowebb]

Surprisingly I only DP consistently on stick. If I dont tiger knee every time on pad I randomly fireball. Just a thing.

I do play a lot of fighters on pad now though. All NRS titles, BB and KoF 14 works with the characters I main but really needs me to go stick I think. In general, I dont think its good to design a game that makes it harder to go pad than stick. It ends up having execution gaps that just feel unfair to casuals IMO.