• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Fighting Games Weekly | Aug 11-17 | RIP Hitokage

Dahbomb

Member
Rapid Slash makes those confirms easier to eye ball and he can catch jumping enemies with it into a combo. Plus Rapid Slash comes with the utility of pushing enemies pretty much full screen away where Hawkeye is in his element.

In addition, you get Vergil DHC off of any Hawkeye combo finisher which is almost always going to lead into a dead character.


Also I don't think Jam Session is a very good defensive assist. It's not a Lariat like assist where it's going to get Wolverine off you, it's really more of a mid range assist. Hawkeye also can't really confirm a Jam Session hit into big damage (unless he does some awkward Hunter arrow confirm into Dante TAC infinite which can still be broken). I would much rather have Doom Plasma Beam or hell even Doom Rocks if I want a more defensive assist. And Dante on the team means that's yet another character that is going to get mauled by Wolverine, Vergil at least has more options to combat him.


You know what just put Hawkeye in front of Vergil/Doom and call it a day because that's what the game is REALLY about.
 

Dahbomb

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";125293334]Ah yes, Hawkeye/Vergil. My one contribution to Marvel tech.[/QUOTE]
I am disappointed this didn't come with the off screen GIF you always like to post..
 

FSLink

Banned
Rapid Slash makes those confirms easier to eye ball and he can catch jumping enemies with it into a combo. Plus Rapid Slash comes with the utility of pushing enemies pretty much full screen away where Hawkeye is in his element.

In addition, you get Vergil DHC off of any Hawkeye combo finisher which is almost always going to lead into a dead character.


Also I don't think Jam Session is a very good defensive assist. It's not a Lariat like assist where it's going to get Wolverine off you, it's really more of a mid range assist. Hawkeye also can't really confirm a Jam Session hit into big damage (unless he does some awkward Hunter arrow confirm into Dante TAC infinite which can still be broken). I would much rather have Doom Plasma Beam or hell even Doom Rocks if I want a more defensive assist. And Dante on the team means that's yet another character that is going to get mauled by Wolverine, Vergil at least has more options to combat him.


You know what just put Hawkeye in front of Vergil/Doom and call it a day because that's what the game is REALLY about.
Been running Hawkeye/Vergil/Doom (assist depending on matchup, usually missiles.) since Day 1 and it's super good. Would probably be better if I didn't suck at Doom infinites.

I've played against a few Hawkeye/Vergil/Dante users online and I think that's a good contender for a top Hawkeye team.
 
Found this on the front page of reddit

6UqFzhH.jpg
 

Seyavesh

Member
Rapid Slash makes those confirms easier to eye ball and he can catch jumping enemies with it into a combo. Plus Rapid Slash comes with the utility of pushing enemies pretty much full screen away where Hawkeye is in his element.

In addition, you get Vergil DHC off of any Hawkeye combo finisher which is almost always going to lead into a dead character.

Also I don't think Jam Session is a very good defensive assist. It's not a Lariat like assist where it's going to get Wolverine off you, it's really more of a mid range assist. Hawkeye also can't really confirm a Jam Session hit into big damage (unless he does some awkward Hunter arrow confirm into Dante TAC infinite which can still be broken). I would much rather have Doom Plasma Beam or hell even Doom Rocks if I want a more defensive assist. And Dante on the team means that's yet another character that is going to get mauled by Wolverine, Vergil at least has more options to combat him.

You know what just put Hawkeye in front of Vergil/Doom and call it a day because that's what the game is REALLY about.

hawk vergil doom is a team asking to be mauled mannn

and it's the midrange game that is the most important re: defensive assist because that's where it gets hot and heavy for hawkeye since it's where the decision points to the determine if the match becomes an up-close game are made. you gotta remember that hawkeye has nigh hulk/haggar-like levels of mobility when it comes to options of escaping with none of the button pressing threat most of the other characters with that type of mobility have. think about it this way: if he gets you to block a haggar assist how is he going to scare you after that? even if he gets a hit it's unlikely he will kill you off whatever comes after unless it's a TAC infinite.

in addition once the opponent gets in and establishes their close up game haggar assist isn't really going to help him escape because they can just bait it out with low risk or low profile it due to hawkeye's weak up close tools

most of the characters who can use haggar to their advantage like that have strong buttons/moves or movement to escape the situation by calling haggar- hawkeye doesn't

at the point where it comes down to 2nd char vs. their point pretty much everyone is gonna get mauled by wolv on incoming so... it's not that weird that dante gets mauled too. not sure where you were going with that, unless you mean 'stick dante on point instead of hawkeye' which in this case then makes it a non-point hawkeye team

the reason rocks and plasma beam won't work in that regard are similar in that they're also lacking in coverage to hawkeye's worst blind spot in the same way that most other defensive assists lack. it's the area above and in front of him - most characters have issues with this space but hawkeye especially does because it's where most of the really good characters get their offense going and he has no mobility tools or attacks to change up the spacing situation since usually the scenario there would be to escape via movement or attack with strong buttons/moves

trap assists (shield, bomb, trish traps) are active hitboxes or still cover approaches from that space so that's why they're relevant here. the opponent is forced to consider that and then block it during their offense which gives hawkeye time to breathe and escape from the midrange position

speaking of which, modok's another character that might be a potential 2nd but both the balloon bomb assist take significantly longer than the other trap assists to come out which could be a serious problem in the midrange pinch game where normally you'd be able to call those assists and make a decision in button pressing to either escape or force them out

i think you're focusing too much on the output here when spacing should be the #1 concern. also note that if youre hitting their point char and killing them with hawk/vergil you're going into the next character at no meter/significant meter disadvantage unlike most other vergil combinations due to how pathetic his meter gain is

also hawkeye task is my businessss

edit: hawkeye vergil dante is up there for sure, probably equal to hawkeye vergil strider

it has holes in the long range sj coverage game though which is what strider was for but that's relevant primarily in the top tier matchups more than anything else. other chars it's not as much of an issue
 

Zissou

Member
Someday I will play a troll team of Hawkguy/RR/Morrigan and run away while calling dark harmonizer -> DHC into mad hopper -> raw tag back to Hawkeye xN.

I know it won't work that well, leave me alone!
 

Dahbomb

Member
There are going to be times where you are facing 2nd character vs Wolverine in a more or less neutral position and even in that situation Dante is at a disadvantage. That's what I was saying really. It's a bad match up all around for Dante, doesn't matter if he's incoming or he's in the neutral.

Hawkeye definitely does not have Hulk/Haggar level of mobility. Maybe AIR MOBILITY but on the ground Hawkeye has a much faster plink dash than either of these characters. As long as he's not cornered it's alright for him.

With Lariat assist you still have to worry about getting hit by Lariat as you could still have Hawkeye finish the combo into a Vergil DHC and dead character. In general in this game you cannot get hit by anything and you always have to be scared of Lariat... the second you are not is one time that you will get hit by Lariat and lose the game. I am not saying Hawkeye/Lariat is some godlike team but it's far superior to Jam Session at the close range where Hawkeye is at his weakest. Hell both Rocks and Plasma Beam are far superior to Jam Session at close range... the distance that Plasma Beam comes out relative to the point character is pretty fucking stupid and it's abuse in high level tournament as get off me assist is well documented.

As far as assists that hit the area that is Up + Forward of Hawkeye go, there are very few assists in the game that actually hit that spot. You already mentioned Balloon Bomb and Jam Session but I would add Repulsar Blast to that list as well (but of course that involves playing Iron Man). Of course there is also Shuma Mystic Ray but the start up is too much for Hawkeye to handle if he's getting mauled.

I still wouldn't pick MODOK because both MODOK and Hawkeye get mauled by Wolverine and Vergil. I think it's very important to have a character on Hawkeye's team that doesn't straight up lose to Wolverine and Vergil as those two are his worst match ups.


Output is still very important though when determining team strength. Doom/Vergil for Hawkeye means a shit ton of output on every hit confirm you make. Rapid Slash and Missiles give you a ton of space coverage on the screen. It makes it so that you can't be too complacent about getting hit by Hawkeye or even getting grabbed by him.


In the end though... if TACs weren't a thing, if Vergil's SS didn't exist, if Doom's Plasma Beam and Hidden Missiles weren't broken assists, if Dante was better at dealing with Hawkeye's bad match ups then yeah I would say for sure that Hawkeye/Dante/Strider is the best team for point Hawkeye. However we don't live in that reality and in our reality... Doom/Vergil is cheap as fuck and makes any character a huge threat.
 
Hawkeye/Dante actually kinda sucks. Hawkeye/Vergil/Dante is kinda ok though.

Hawkeye/Vergil/Strider is the best but the Strider hitconfirms and extensions for Hawkeye are deceptively unintuitive.
 

Seyavesh

Member
why would you be scared about rapid slash or missiles if you are in hawkeye's face corning him at the start of the match? you're assuming in a point match hawkeye starts with the space to gets all this stuff going when he's already in the danger zone.

lariat is the best in this regard for obvious reasons but beyond that it's effectiveness vs players who know how to deal with it is pretty questionable considering hawkeye's lack of tools to take advantage of it (and how most of the good characters kinda ignore the assist in their up close games). if he calls lariat and jumps his only options are to fall and press buttons and that's it. if they low profile lariat and he jumps it's a free mixup (aa or airthrow). if he sits there and calls lariat and it gets low profiled while he sits there he still dies

i don't disagree that all 3 of those assists are better for close range defense though, it's just that at the point where hawkeye's forced to be in the close range showdown he's most likely boned regardless of his assist. another issue thing is those 3 assists won't help stabilize the common matchups where he potentially can go even or have an advantage because of how they function (zero morrigan mags) which is where i pick him

spencer's a worse matchup than wolverine btw because he can reaction bionic arm 100% of hawkeye's shit from a disgusting distance and his type of pressure/offense is pretty conducive to hawkeye's defensive weaknesses. that matchup is seriously almost vergil levels of bad

hawkeye just has a loooot of bad matchups, unfortunately. pretty much every single strong ground based character and zero (surprise!) are rough on him

also re: dante vs. wolv in neutral i've heard pretty split things about this matchup from good dante players. what i've seen is pretty split too so im not 100% on that though my personal belief is the same as yours (dante gets wreckeddd)

edit:
forgot but i don't disagree with you on output at all which is why the other chars listed have TAC infinites and strong DHC damage
 
hawkeye/taskmaster/haggar is the best team. :p
Shhhh don't tell people about the secret best team in the game.
Someday I will play a troll team of Hawkguy/RR/Morrigan and run away while calling dark harmonizer -> DHC into mad hopper -> raw tag back to Hawkeye xN.

I know it won't work that well, leave me alone!
Haha I use a team almost like that. RR/Iron Man/Hawkeye. It's the shit. So much fun. I occasionally will switch up the order and do Hawkeye/RR/IM. DHC into and out of mad hopper is the best. You just get to sit on that shit and zone.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Dante is playable against Wolverine if it's unassisted Wolverine and the Dante player is on point with the usage of all his tools with air tight spacing.

The 8 frame fastest move hurt Dante in the match up no matter how good the player is.


I actually forgot about Spencer, yea that's pretty messed up for Hawkeye too.

I actually heard from a lot of players that Hawkeye does decently well against Zero (as much as a lower tier character can do against a top tier). Not sure how much stock I would put into that though.

In the end this is all just theory craft stuff to pass the time.... when it comes to competitive play Hawkeye is a support anchor character through and through. No one is going to use Hawkeye point unless for an extreme counter pick.
 
I still find Dormammu backed by Dark Harmonizer to be a blast. Too bad that Vajra and Hidden Missiles make it impossible. So many Stalking Flares...
 

Sheroking

Member
Heh. I was just screwing around with some high lord last night with Dorm/Morrigan/Vergil. Definitely a lot of fun.

My favorite is an endless loop of stalking flares into meteors while calling morrigan. So many solid players don't even know how to handle it without an instant reversal hyper.
 

BakedYams

Slayer of Combofiends
PING PONG THE ANIMATION

HUG ME BROTHER!

Hajime no Ippo
hajime_no_ippo_tekken_iron_fist_gif_by_thatguythere_seehim-d7cc2fw.gif

THIS IS THE SHIT!

monster (this is as non anime as it goes. no sexual fanservice, and very well done)
steins;gate (my personal favorite)
full metal alchemist brotherhood
psycho pass
shinsekai yori (shit is so subtle with how dark it is)

Cosign on Shinsekai Yori, Steins;gate, and Monster. Would add:
Baccano!
Spaceship Battle Yamato 2199
The Eccentric Family
Princess Jellyfish
The Tatami Galaxy

Anime Weekly.

Good animes
Mushishi
Five Centimeters per second
Haibane Renmei
Sword of the Stranger

Too much anime, must research. Hell, been watching anime for more than 6 years and there are a few names I don't know of. Sorry to 90's anime, I had no internet or cable.

shouta'll be back before then and slap us straight

Shouta might even join us. Kappa

The legendary Dogefox

Fall back u nerd.
 

Seyavesh

Member
I actually heard from a lot of players that Hawkeye does decently well against Zero (as much as a lower tier character can do against a top tier). Not sure how much stock I would put into that though.

In the end this is all just theory craft stuff to pass the time.... when it comes to competitive play Hawkeye is a support anchor character through and through. No one is going to use Hawkeye point unless for an extreme counter pick.

haha, actually my current main team for most matchups is hawkeye nova strider. i only bust out point task when i'm dealing with ground based chars since task has a favorable matchup vs most of them. i do well vs. pretty top players in the region but am really bad about closing out victories (also i love doing really high risk high reward punishes like a moron)

and hawkeye does well vs. zeros (zeroes?) who don't understand the matchup but once they figure it out it's really rough. definitely a live or die scenario based on having the absolute right assists. once they figure out the right spacing and decision making process to get in it becomes real bad

i never get to travel and i even missed my own region's curleh out of bad luck so it's rare that i actually get to actually figure out my overall skill placement besides shit like tx showdown (which is basically the only big tourney i get to go to every year)
 
HUG ME BROTHER!



THIS IS THE SHIT!







Too much anime, must research. Hell, been watching anime for more than 6 years and there are a few names I don't know of. Sorry to 90's anime, I had no internet or cable.



Shouta might even join us. Kappa



Fall back u nerd.

Brah have you looked in the mirror?
 

Silky

Banned
Dang man in that first match I thought you were going to miss the punish at the end when you accidentally got that ex jaguar kick lol.

I know, that was scary. I thought when I jumped over the fireball is be behind him to do Ultra 2, but the landing made me do EX jaguar. Thank GOD metsu hadoken has crazy bad recovery
 
Jazz-ism is the guy with the Tommy Pickles avatar right? Shouta please tell me it's not a perma-ban. I kinda liked that guy.

Also Dahbomb steam gift cards are only $20 at cheapest & Im not giving you $20 for a $10 bet. You gotta choose another type of gift card OR we go double or nothing on another bet, I lose I buy you the $20 gift card, I win, you're just wrong about everything Marvel related.

Also I missed the anime discussion but Top 5 Animes free

1.) Ippo
2.) Initial D
3.) Cowboy Bebop
4.) YuYu Hakusho
5.) Who gives a shit when you've got those 4.
 
Top Bottom