MiniBossBattle
Member
I'm glad they put chain combos into MvC3. It makes it easy for everyone to do the most simple combos and have fun. It isn't the most optimal but its a good start.
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Fighting Games Weekly | Aug 4-10 | IT DOES NOT FOLLOW ANY REASON
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
Being able to jump into a character and do the basics in a cast of 52 is incredibly helpful.
DiscoShark
Banned
Am I the only one that DOESN'T find UNiB easy to pick up in the slightest? The hitstun deterioration in the game is so strict that its really really difficult to find optimal damage stuff with any of the characters I've tried. Contrast it to Melty Blood and finding a quick and dirty combo that did a reasonable amount of damage was extremely easy in comparison. Movement wise I don't think I've quite grasped UNiBs style much either.
If anything I think the popularity is because, mechanically, it does a lot to sort of bridge that gap between anime and more footsies oriented fighters. Jumping is unsafe and as a result the unrestricted offense of vs. style/anime games is more subdued. We're seeing a sort of bridging between fans of different styles of game with UNiEL in a way we just haven't seen before I think.
If anything I think the popularity is because, mechanically, it does a lot to sort of bridge that gap between anime and more footsies oriented fighters. Jumping is unsafe and as a result the unrestricted offense of vs. style/anime games is more subdued. We're seeing a sort of bridging between fans of different styles of game with UNiEL in a way we just haven't seen before I think.
Smooth Operator
Member
Nope you're right. If you play Gordeau or Merkava, sure, the combos are kinda easy if you stick to no-optimal combos, but that's not the case with the rest of the cast. It's like saying UMVC3 is easy because Wesker.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
You dont need optimal combos day 1
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
I can understand the frustration of execution errors to some extent, but I mean that's the game part of fighting games. Take away the dexterity and reaction and memorization elements and you don't really have a fighting game anymore I feel
Like can someone who agrees with this explain what their ideal fighting game would be? because to me alot of the stuff people commonly complain about are almost synonymous with the identity of the genre to me.(Combos. Arcade motions, tight timings etc)
The Mango Sentinel
Member
As long as you build your game around it then it's fine. If you just shoehorn it in (CvS2 EO) then it's really stupid and probably won't work.
An easier game may turn off a bunch of people and might attract a lot at the same time.
Personally I just want lenient inputs and decent shortcuts. 3rd Strike was very good about this. It's one of the few things I do like about the game. One of the easiest games to play execution wise.
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
As a counterexample, Tekken has far more lenient dexterity requirements in the general sense than SF. What do you think about the fighting game-ness of Tekken?
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
I don't really know much about it. I'm referring to 2D fightan as that's what I play
Do you play on pad or stick? I thought they were wtf impossible on pad then I got a square gate TE and it's much more simple to me that I probably mess up double half/quarter circle forward motions more often.
Deckard Cain
Banned
Easily dumbest post in FGCW in a long time.
Totally agree with what the dude said. Ideal fighting game execution would be street fighter with no jab 1 frame links(i'd actually say no 1 frame links at all, but i'll be conservative) or Persona 4 Arena.
You can lessen execution without completely removing it.
I can't agree with this. Input's are tighter(Tighter than KOF in many aspects imo), hit confirms are on another level of difficult compared to SF4, and juggles are very difficult to pull off. Only character I've played in that game that has easy execution would be Yang. Not that I particularly mind as some aspects(tighter input windows) I like in 3S vs SF4 simply because you're much less likely to get input errors due to shortcuts even if moves are harder to pull off.
You are not a casual player....at all
You really think you're a casual player? Hmmmmmmm. I think you have a strange idea of what a casual player is.
notworksafe
Member
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
I legit don't understand what's so dumb or funny about that
Deckard Cain
Banned
You just said the equivalent of ice is hot, lava is cold.
Smooth Operator
Member
That's just not true at all. Please talk about games you know.
If you're just playing your friend that knows nothing about Tekken, then ya it seems easy because you can mash buttons and cool things come out. But if you're actually trying to learn Tekken, it's hard as fuck. I still can't effectively backdash cancel for the life of me and that's like the very first thing you gotta learn if you wanna become anywhere near decent at the game. That technique alone requires a lot of practice to get down to the point it becomes second nature. Add in just-frames and the game isn't as easy as it seems at first glance.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
What's a casual player?
I'm not sure that term should be synonymous with beginner.
I'm not sure that term should be synonymous with beginner.
He obviously has yet to actually incorporate movement into his gameplay.
Smooth Operator
Member
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
I said in the general sense. Do you think things like wavedashing and EWGFs are so integral to the Tekken formula that taking them out would create a fundamentally different game at all levels of play (as Retro_ seems to be saying arcade motions would do to SF)?
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
notworksafe
Member
So you've never actually played or watched Tekken?
At least to me, a casual player isn't a beginner, but also doesn't know enough about the intricacies of the game to effectively utilize them. They are effectively in the middle, between beginner and mid-level player.
As an example: imo, In SF, a casual player would know what crouch teching is, but past that it becomes a crapshoot. They would know combos, but not the most optimal.(and definitely nothing involving 1 frame links) They most likely would not know how to anti air. I hate to bring PP into this, but a casual player would not be sniffing anywhere near 3kpp(hell even 2kpp) in my mind.
Of course you can have casual players that do know all these things as they could have been hardcore players at some point and retired. They could have been playing fighting games for years and thus that experience developed over time to where they understand the fundamentals. These are the outliers though.
Yup. From the very first second of a match these tools are utilized throughout. Backdash cancels especially. Removing them would change the game entirely.
Smooth Operator
Member
I'm...i'm a casual player. Shit D:
(Except for the PP's, i had 3k+ back in the SSF4 days.)
Shouta
Member
As I recall, BDC first came around during TTT1 so it hasn't been integral to the series from the beginning like circular inputs has been for SF.
They were once called GD.
There are tons of movement types in Tekken, though. Snakedashing, Wavedashing, etc.
And once upon a time, an SRK required three directions, lol... :/ I miss that, most of all.
The second you get into competitive Tekken, taking that out would create a fundamentally different game as the enhanced movement is the first thing you need to learn. (To be fair, a large chunk of Tekken players never play at this level!) Harada even commented on this during the Tekken Casino stream at Evo -- even as hard as it is, he wouldn't take backdash cancels out of Tekken as they're one of the main things that makes Tekken... well, Tekken. (I suspect BDCs end up working like they do in TRevo -- nerfed, but still there and still useful).
And EWGFs are iconic -- it would be like taking shoryukens out of SF.
I've actually never used that DP shortcut in my 2 years of playing SF lol. I think I used it for the 2 weeks I first started playing as I had a controller and not a stick and thus DP motions were crazy difficult for me.
And what does GD stand for?
I don't know frame data. I don't know option selects. Half of the fighting game terms goes over my head. I don't even know names of certain moves. I don't watch videos on how to do moves, combos, etc. I just pick up and play and go from there. I'm a hands on type of person. I don't like reading instructions to begin with.
The proper question is what DOESN'T GD stand for?
Valle 101. Much respect, Kadey.
Passive Assassin
Member
... let's just play divekick :l
F Champ is confirmed for Shadowloo Showdown (invited guest). I guess this is surprising because Champ did blow them up on FGTV
https://twitter.com/ShadowlooHQ/status/496464018232471552
https://twitter.com/ShadowlooHQ/status/496464018232471552
You guys need to realize that it's all RELATIVE.
You cannot generalize combo input leniency for fighting games. I can look at Sakura and say wow, it's easy to do combos with her. Doesn't mean a general conclusion should be made that SF is lenient on its dexterity requirements.
Similarly, Tekken's general dexterity requirements will vary based on character. I don't think what Cosmo Clock posted is dumb, however. It is easy to form that conclusion because you can literally play ANY character in Tekken and perform basic combos without learning the more intricate ones. I'm not just talking about EWGFs and just frame attacks. If you want to take extended and optimal damage with your characters, then you have to put in the extra work. Just to give some examples, look at Dragunov (d/f+2, f+4,4,3, f+1, f+3, d/f, SS cancel 1,3,2......), look at Lili (d/f+2, f+2,3, f,f+3,f, SS cancel into 1, df/+3.....), look at Nina's iWS+1. These characters and more have advanced combos that are most definitely not lenient on dexterity. I play Anna as well and she has some of the toughest shit to pull off for optimal damage (example here).
So yeah, don't make general conclusions based off your own relative experiences.
if this means you're casual then i guess i'm a casual marvel player too.
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
When I think Tekken I think juggles and high emphasis on frame advantage. Last game I played was Tekken Revolution and I got to Berserker rank (which is hardly praise-worthy, but I think it's far enough) without feeling like I was at a complete disadvantage because I was unable to consistently wavedash or pull off any frame-perfect inputs. Contrasting this to a SF-like game, I'm not sure I could reach that level if I were incapable of inputting command motions consistently.
I dunno, would this mean that the large chunk of Tekken players aren't actually playing Tekken? If Harada thinks BDCs are iconic to Tekken though, then that's that.
I didn't mean to take out EWGFs entirely, but make the input to it more lenient. Although then we get into Deckard Cain's previous point that EWGF probably wouldn't be as good as it is if it had an easier input.
Karsticles
Member
FGW | We Are All Casual
The great thing about MOBAs is that they have low execution requirements. I am not talking APM here.
It is pretty hard to define, but I might say that it is the kind of person who might try SF once, and then take it or leave it. They aren't specifically interested in the genre, they aren't attached to the franchise, etc. They might try it for an hour, and from that hour, decide how much fun it is and whether they want to continue. For that person, fighting games are generally unappealing past a certain point due to input resctrictions.
The great thing about MOBAs is that they have low execution requirements. I am not talking APM here.
It's also a question of the optimal combos vs. what you get from the sub-optimal ones. I'm going to pick at the Lili example because I played her in TTT2 -- that is the optimal combo, but you could do something a lot easier like 3+RP, 6+RP,LK, 3+LK+RK, BT LP+RP and you lose all of what, 5-6 damage? Now the optimal combo can matter more at some very specific spacing (namely where 66+LK~6, SS LP will carry to the wall), but in most instances it doesn't matter much, and given how tight that sidestep cancel is (even good players like Bane drop that shit all the time), I honestly wonder how worth it it is in most situations. Whereas in Street Fighter, if you don't know the one frame links with some characters, you're completely SOL out of any damage from them.
That's another hard thing about Tekken, actually -- you need to know a number of combo variants so you know which string is optimal relative to how close you are to the wall. That's more of a game knowledge issue though, but you have to have the presence of mind and experience to not only know those sequences, but to be able to judge correctly which combo to use instantly. (Never mind goofier situations, like side wall relaunches or wall bounce combos).
Anybody's who's played ranked mode in order to become Cosmic King or whatever multiple times, is/was on live every time I signed on, puts thoughts into his team and actively practices setups and team synergy is not casual.
Any SF game is easy to pick up for someone who has played SF2 in any amount of time back during the 16 bit days. Just like back then, fireballs, shoryukens, sonic booms are still done the same way.
That's because the average level of play from TRevo is pretty damn low, to the point where the max ranks correspond with about the consistently lowest level of TTT2 play is (which isn't bad per se... it just is what it is). I know this from experience. D: (Hit max rank in TRevo, but the last couple of times I've played TTT2 online beating even low level players is a struggle.)
I would say that people who aren't integrating BDCs aren't playing competitive Tekken -- but that's fine. It's like the difference between casual and competitive SSBM players. You don't need to know how to wavedash in either game to enjoy it -- but you'll need to learn it if you want to start winning games in tournaments.
If I remember correctly, they actually did make EWGF easier in TRevo. -- they made WGF have the same pushback and frame advantage that EWGF has.
SolarPowered
Member
Juicebox_FGC
Member
A casual player does not apply active effort towards increasing their skill and is not invested in the results of the match (either emotionally, competitively, or otherwise).
I think "casual" has no bearing on their skill level, though. You can be a casual SF player for many years and be decent at the game based on what you've picked up.
A "casual" Tekken player might have learned that the timing on a EWGF is hard, but she wouldn't know the exact input timing required for it, nor would she be able to do a DEWGF except by accident.
I think "casual" has no bearing on their skill level, though. You can be a casual SF player for many years and be decent at the game based on what you've picked up.
A "casual" Tekken player might have learned that the timing on a EWGF is hard, but she wouldn't know the exact input timing required for it, nor would she be able to do a DEWGF except by accident.
Extra damage is definitely worth it. I tend to randomly try Nina iWS+1 combos in matches even though I KNOW I will drop it. How else am I going to learn it if not actually try performing it in matches. I can do it EASILY in practices and fluke when I enter a match. It's part of the learning experience and if dropping it helps me refine my experience, my hand dexterity, and my general capabilities in the game, then why I wouldn't I try to learn it.
Alternately, I should mention that with Anna, her optimal damage combos venture into the realm of impossibility for me so I don't try them. But when I know I can do something in practice and have to only refine it further, then I will do it.
Also, Lili's combo I mentioned can be learned as well. I've done it in matches before and consistently pull it off in practice. This is ONLY thanks to me using Dragunov prior to that and training myself (my hands/mind) to adapt to sidestep cancelling into left punch. If I had just up and quit, as you are suggesting, and went with the less damaging combos, I wouldn't know any of this.
For me, TTT2 is the all around near-perfect game. I'm not joking when I say (with combos), TTT2 is the best and most creative fighting game of last gen or ever (even over UMvC3, which has team characters using pre-determined assists throughout the entire match in combos).
I will post the same video from before from a different time stamp because the creativity is nearly endless when you think about your options.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIWX0MFPW10#t=3m49s
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
I think it's disingenous to say that casual players aren't invested in the results of the match (because nobody wants to hold that L) or that they don't apply active effort towards increasing their skill level, but that winning and improving isn't their primary motivation for playing the game. In Magic parlance, they're the opposite of "Spike" players.