If it's late for east coast, it's super late for Europe and Monday morning for Asia, basically, watching USF4 top 8 from anywhere but North/South America isn't an option if you have day job, I had to take a day off to watch it this year.
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Fighting Games Weekly | Dec 15-21 | I did the math; it came out to 500,000
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
DryEyeRelief
Member
Are you going to be saying the same thing when Smash 4 is at evo instead?
Professor Beef
Banned
what are the poor stream monsters going to do when xrd gets more entrants than marvel
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Complain about how it's worse than marvel
WesternHeretic
Member
Play League.
Passive Assassin
Member
this kagecchi stream...
Passive Assassin
Member
if we only could see the matches ....
japan pls
japan pls
Awesome.
not watch either
I hope those who have something against 1f links or only 1f buffer also have something against the Xrd 2f reversal window. Both are representing the same problem. Which is preventing people from doing something, due to some "arbitrary" design.
1f buffer would be the same as plinking, without the plink exploit so it wouldn't make it that easy.
The worst thing about these "under the hood" decisions is that it prevents people from doing their stuff and turn it into praying to the frame gods that people drop things.
Maybe for combos some kind of just frame combined with GG/UNIEL scaling system would work. Like frame perfect is 100% and each frame deviation is like 25%/50% less dmg and stun. Since Tekken and SC had just frame attacks and none of them are really heavily debated from what I see.
On another topic. I don't like the jump install from chipp in Xrd :/. I already have to fight against lag when in netplay and now I have to pull this off too? I wonder how much netplay plays into the design of SFV.
1f buffer would be the same as plinking, without the plink exploit so it wouldn't make it that easy.
The worst thing about these "under the hood" decisions is that it prevents people from doing their stuff and turn it into praying to the frame gods that people drop things.
Maybe for combos some kind of just frame combined with GG/UNIEL scaling system would work. Like frame perfect is 100% and each frame deviation is like 25%/50% less dmg and stun. Since Tekken and SC had just frame attacks and none of them are really heavily debated from what I see.
On another topic. I don't like the jump install from chipp in Xrd :/. I already have to fight against lag when in netplay and now I have to pull this off too? I wonder how much netplay plays into the design of SFV.
Coffeeling
Member
The Ogawa page.
I quit. Brain died.
Holy Order Sol
Member
I'd be all for a tighter reversal window indeed.
ogawa is a guilty gear god. the best eddie/zato-1 (arguably one of the most hardest fighting game characters to play) player in the world. he is so feared in the japanese arcades, that pro players dodge him so they wont get ranked down.
I hope SFV has an input buffer and joins the modern era of fighting games. Better for netplay, better for getting to the meat and potatoes. Doesnt take away hard combos or dropped combos.
Yeah when SFV drops, there is definitely going to be that group of SF4 players who want those bad design choices in again.
Yeah when SFV drops, there is definitely going to be that group of SF4 players who want those bad design choices in again.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Maybe then people can get over grinding combos in training mode and can get to the interesting part of the game. Like footsies, spacing, match-up knowledge, proper utilization of normals and special moves, etc.
"Mike Ross is also whiter than white on rice in a glass of milk on a paper plate in a snowstorm (ღ˘⌣˘ღ
"Goddamn lol
Holy Order Sol
Member
Execution is part of the game, not something in the way. If you drop it means you fucked up and it's only normal for that to cost you.
Besides if people would do things in order they'd get familiar with their normals and how to use them before even getting to combos. If they go about that backwards the failure is also on them.
Karsticles
Member
What fader said.
If you look up Ogawa playing Zato, it is the most terrifying thing in a fighting game. The opponent looks completely without hope once he gets a hit blocked. I play Firebrand, so my standard for helpless terror is high.
Wow, the execution-barrier discussion is in every FG thread between here and Dustloop it feels.
Even with an easier combo system, more difficult combos will exist, and those more difficult combos will raise the standards for competing, because they'll likely provide optimal damage. Then you will still have people bitching about execution-barriers. Even ignoring combos, "grinding" in terms of set-play (oki, block string pressure), punishes, defensive labwork, movement patterns, footsies, etc. etc. will still exist and still raise standards causing a barrier for entry.
The game is never the barrier for entry it's the mindset necessary to compete in the game.
It's NOT "arbitrary" and parroting it till the cows come home isn't going to make it true. It's specifically there to promote offensive pressure, which is a staple of GG gameplay.
Even with an easier combo system, more difficult combos will exist, and those more difficult combos will raise the standards for competing, because they'll likely provide optimal damage. Then you will still have people bitching about execution-barriers. Even ignoring combos, "grinding" in terms of set-play (oki, block string pressure), punishes, defensive labwork, movement patterns, footsies, etc. etc. will still exist and still raise standards causing a barrier for entry.
The game is never the barrier for entry it's the mindset necessary to compete in the game.
It's NOT "arbitrary" and parroting it till the cows come home isn't going to make it true. It's specifically there to promote offensive pressure, which is a staple of GG gameplay.
Karsticles
Member
I totally get the execution complaints, but every FG has characters of varying execution. Why don't people just pick someone on the light side of things? When I played BB, I couldn't IAD to save my life, so I picked Tager. Now, years later, I feel like my execution has improved immensely, so I am trying to learn Zato.
Coffeeling
Member
It's scary because it's not some random infinite that you get stuck in and then the opponent either drops it or not. It's scary because it's pressure. Pressure that flows smoothly into setups that get abandoned just as fluidly if they're screwed up, and just an overall rock solid neutral game. He had some bad habits a while ago but I don't get the frail feeling I used to from his neutral anymore either. Whatever the gaps were, he's closed them.
I mean, just watch this stuff:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjvHUYZn-wQ
Here, we're talking about a universal mechanic that contributes to how the game plays, generally. GG as a series has a hard-on for offense, which is why reversal timing is tight. Different games promote different things and make different things accessible in varying degrees as a result.
Once you can execute a Reversal in a 2 frame window, consistently, what do you think is going to happen to your execution in FGs with 3,4 or 5 frame windows?
Some people rarely think about the benefits of the challenge they're currently facing, they just complain.
Yea I think the scary part of it all is just how strong his neutral game is... it's just 24/7 pressure... how does this man exist!?!?
Karsticles
Member
I like buffering in combos, but I don't care about buffering in the neutral. If you can't input your move when it needs to come out, why should it?
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Don't really like this line of argumentation. "People will always complain no matter what, so lets not do ANYTHING to make some of the basic combos easier".
hitsugi
Member
This is a great mentality to have.
I don't understand.
People are here are just talking about combos but I'm talking about execution-barriers in general. By all means, make basic combos easier if that's what your holistic design values. I've preferred buffer systems ever since Killer Instinct 1, myself. My point being; don't expect that to address people with an inclination towards getting frustrated when they hit any challenging aspect of your design; be it combos, motions, reversals - whatever.
UNIEL is praised for its easy combo system. Wonder why that scene isn't more popular, despite all the complaining about links and execution in SF games?
Most people don't have the humility to take that approach.
"I think X character looks cool, I should be able to play him/her if I want. I bought the game. But character X is 'locked away' behind an execution-barrier."
ViewtifulJC
Banned
ok, glad we agree
Karsticles
Member
Kimo, what I mean is that when you are recovering from knockdown, I think it is fair to have little input buffering. If you can't input the attack when you are able to, that is something you need to work out. Buffering just lends itself to easier wakeup reversals, which, IMO, should be strict. I think it is beneficial to have strict inputs in the neutral.
However, I don't see strict inputs having a strong benefit when combos are involved. This makes something unnecessarily hard, and you have to sit in training mode for hours to get the timing right. No one needs to sit in training mode for hours to get the timing on a reversal right.
I am not explaining myself well, but I basically think that it is fine to buffer inputs to give players a little help in completing their combos as a reward for winning the neutral, but I don't think folks need a single input in the neutral to be made easier.
However, I don't see strict inputs having a strong benefit when combos are involved. This makes something unnecessarily hard, and you have to sit in training mode for hours to get the timing right. No one needs to sit in training mode for hours to get the timing on a reversal right.
I am not explaining myself well, but I basically think that it is fine to buffer inputs to give players a little help in completing their combos as a reward for winning the neutral, but I don't think folks need a single input in the neutral to be made easier.
to me, SF5 seems to put more emphasizes on offence. So naturally as the game evolves I think it will be at a faster pace, how much? I don't know.
Coffeeling
Member
Do you like KOF13's button hold maybe? Complete input, press button and leave it held. For the next ~7-8 frames or so the game will attempt to do the move. If it can, it will. If it can't, it'll wait. Makes combos easier, guarantees wakeup reversal if you want it (but since stick inputs are only checked for validity on button press, you have to tell the game to do crossup. ie. SF4 stores stick information in forward/back format, you press button, it checks those forward/back instructions. So crossing up mid-input can result in crosscut DP being something franken like 621. KOF sees you press button, checks facing of character, reads input buffer to see if there's a valid DP input in there. So you face right, opponent crosses you up so you now face left, you input 421 or 424 + late P) but would allow a low actual input buffer in neutral.
Been playing GG a bunch and even KOF13's shortcuts are giving me issues. It's wonderful that the game has a built-in override for DP shortcuts (accepts 626 as DP so run~qcf = DP. You can override by tiger kneeing the qcf move) but it's led to me tiger kneeing absolutely everything. A most unhealthy habit in a game as jump cancel infested as GG. ;__;
how did you get this impression watching two games with one players first time touching it?
Karsticles
Member
Very cool idea, but I didn't get into KoF because of the netcode. It sounds like it could be a nice compromise.
it's just a theory, it's not meant to be taken seriously.
That's great for offline play, but you tell me how to do it online and I'll rest my case. Especially when online is an important part of todays fighting games. Combos can be done on muscle memory. Wake up, not so good.
Why should having poor execution limit you to chars you might not want to play? This is the first reason I've never liked GG. The chars I'd want to play require too much effort in training mode for me to enjoy the game, so why bother? I'll just play something good instead.
Yes, folks are always going to bitch about execution to some degree. VF to me gives about the right level of reward for high execution/knowledge. Usually it's about 5% max damage on a combo, and you don't get killed if you fail in most cases.
That's my big issue with SF4- if you can't hit those links 100%, it's often suicidal to try. ST had the same hard links, but given the copious blockstun/hitstun and hard reversals, you didn't eat 50% for failing from FADC/ultra.
Some folks want to make both hard, I'd rather see both easy to make more of the game accessible to non-FGC players. That's how you get more FGC players. It's not like it's going to make the game baby mode.
As a community we should always be looking for inclusivity, be it by not being asshats at tournies, or by having the games be inclusive.
ChamplooJones
Formerly Momotaro
There a reason for that game's lack of popularity, and it ain't the gameplay.
i hear it's insanely imbalanced. is that the case?
I was on the UNIEL train early on, but Gordeau is the dumbest braindead shit i've ever seen in FGs.