Parallax Scroll
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Fighting Games Weekly | Jan 26 - Feb 1 | Zaibatschu
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irfaanator
Banned
gj yams on not diappointing. Also why is his avatar from halloween
Karsticles
Member
The Souls games aren't RPGs. Drives me nuts when people call them that, like when people used to call Zelda games RPGs. I don't know when this crap started.
Agreed. Action Rpg is more accurate.
Don't visit GAF then because it will drive you insane.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Essentially if a game has a protagonist or characters you can play, you can call it an RPG.
I'm not even sure where you'd differentiate things otherwise nowadays with so much genre mixing.
Professor Beef
Banned
Stat growth and EXP gain is typically how you define RPGs, as well as a separate battle screen for....well, battles. I've never touched a Souls game, so I dont know how they work in terms of character growth.
irfaanator
Banned
it has a leveling system and you role play as some guy
Souls definitely count as an RPG. Defining features for me are character leveling, allocation of stats, and distinguished classes, which is absolutely huge in Souls' games. Your specific capabilities are determined by your specific builds, which are diverse and meaningfully differentiated.
Zelda's not an RPG.
Zelda's not an RPG.
MiniBossBattle
Member
I thought Souls game were considered an action RPG: exp, stat growth, narrative. Not sure what to categorize is as. So many cross genre blends now adays its hard to describe things.
Professor Beef
Banned
Action RPGs and "traditional" RPGs differ when it comes to battling. Games like Souls, Kingdom Hearts, God of War, etc, are Action RPGs since the game doesn't "shift" to a battle screen like "traditional" ones do (Pokemon, Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, etc).
I figured everyone knew this.
Role Playing Game to me has always been about you playing a character that you shape yourself (ie. you are role playing the character as yourself). That could be through customization of look, gear, stats etc. You also have to keep making choices that keep defining your character. Your character will be different from someone else's character because you are role playing your character and they are role playing their's. The more you play, the more differentiated the characters become. That's why most RPGs have you name your character.
This is the opposite of an action game (or character action game as people like to call them these days). In an action game everyone has the same character... ie. everyone has Dante, Bayonetta, Kratos. They start the same and end the same (when they get all their gear). Your Dante is not more unique than mine. And certainly you are not allowed to even name Dante someone else because he is his own character who makes his own choice with a predetermined amount of stats that can't be altered or customized. The only differentiating factor between players is their weapon load out which is equally accessible to all (ie. not hidden behind RNG or loot tables).
God of War isn't an action RPG though.. it's pure action.
This is the opposite of an action game (or character action game as people like to call them these days). In an action game everyone has the same character... ie. everyone has Dante, Bayonetta, Kratos. They start the same and end the same (when they get all their gear). Your Dante is not more unique than mine. And certainly you are not allowed to even name Dante someone else because he is his own character who makes his own choice with a predetermined amount of stats that can't be altered or customized. The only differentiating factor between players is their weapon load out which is equally accessible to all (ie. not hidden behind RNG or loot tables).
You are basically describing real time combat vs turn based combat.
God of War isn't an action RPG though.. it's pure action.
Karsticles
Member
I just call them action games.
To me, an RPG is inherently menu-based. Genres should be defined by gameplay, not auxiliary mechanics. Otherwise Destiny is an FPS RPG, just like Call of Duty and Borderlands. Character growth can be applied to any genre - it is not inherently tied to RPGs. Some RPGs, like Valkyria Chronicles, don't even have XP or stats.
Soul Sacrifice and Monster Hunter are also not RPGs.
Also, the Elder Scrolls series aren't RPGs.
To me, an RPG is inherently menu-based. Genres should be defined by gameplay, not auxiliary mechanics. Otherwise Destiny is an FPS RPG, just like Call of Duty and Borderlands. Character growth can be applied to any genre - it is not inherently tied to RPGs. Some RPGs, like Valkyria Chronicles, don't even have XP or stats.
Soul Sacrifice and Monster Hunter are also not RPGs.
Direct control makes a game an action game, not screen shifting. FFXIII doesn't have screen shifting for battles. Neither does Chrono Trigger.
Also, the Elder Scrolls series aren't RPGs.
Professor Beef
Banned
But Destiny IS a FPS RPG (hell that's what Bungie calls it) as is Borderlands. Call of Duty isn't a FPS RPG because there is no stats to allocate/customize and everyone has access to the same inventory that is unlocked after tiers with same stats (only available in multiplayer, in single player it's a straight up shooter with no customization whatsoever).
And again character growth =/= what is the essence of RPG to me... it's character choice. Like I make a choice that impacts the strength of the character down the line or it impacts the story. It's not EXP bar filling which pretty much every game has these days anyway... it's the element of real choice that defines your character.
You are basically saying that everything that people consider Western RPGs these days (Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Elders Scroll, Witcher) isn't an RPG. Which is cool and all but you should know that 99% of the people out there don't see it that way.Also, the Elder Scrolls series aren't RPGs.
Karsticles
Member
VC lets you purchase levels for an entire class, but it is more like a team upgrade than real XP. You don't get XP for defeating enemies, and individual troops don't have levels. It is more similar to upgrading a unit type in an RTS.
How are Borderlands and Call of Duty different? They both have skills you can choose between to differentiate your character. There are no stats in Borderlands. Just skill points.
Professor Beef
Banned
Dissidia already does that.
It still has EXP, which is what you said it doesn't.
Sounds a bit like soul calibur's special vs mode or any of the other modes where you can customise everything. Pretty much impossible to balance tho.
Karsticles
Member
It isn't really XP, though. XP, or "experience points", go up when characters do things well. In VC, you just get money, and you can spend it on whatever you want. Even if they are called XP, the mechanic outweighs the nomenclature.
You don't have skills or skill points in Call of Duty especially in the single player. You basically have perk loadout which every body has equal access to. In Borderlands you have classes and a skill tree so you actually have to make a choice when making a character build and not everyone has equal access to them as people are not playing same classes. It's a very limited scope of choice and character building but it's there.
There are stats in Borderlands through the items which are randomly dropped (same as Destiny). It's pretty much all the same as Destiny really. And both games I would consider extremely bare bones on the RPG side of things.
Like Borderlands is basically Diablo but in FPS view. We can definitely argue if Diablo is an action game or an RPG because it's like comparing Diablo to DMC. Yeah in DMC you have "skill points", you have weapon load outs and you have EXP bar filling but it's not an RPG because there is no real choice in the matter or any unique character building.
KidA Seven
Member
sixteen-bit
Member
Blue is the warmest color
CountBlack
Member
Thuggachu was the better title
Tobal 2, man. Though you couldn't use your RPG character in versus matches. You could catch all the RPG enemies for versus, though, which led to a hilarious 200 character roster. Tree v Old Man with No Arms.
theprodigy
Member
lol
Couldn't even make it to grand finals this time, you scrub
Time for him to hit the top tier now!
I knew you had good taste
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
Dark Souls is a WRPG, just like Xenoblade X, Final Fantasy 15 and Tales of Zestiria.
W-based JRPG?
sixteen-bit
Member
Reiterating stuff I've said in other threads but...
I have never liked JRPG or WRPG as a genre titles.
Japanese PC RPGs in the 1980s were influenced by games like Wizardry and follow conventions you'd probably describe as "western RPGs". Would you call games like Elminage or Dark Souls JRPGs just because they originate in Japan? What about Costume Quest? That's a western-made game that's designed like a Dragon Quest title. Is that a JRPG?
In Japan they call games that follow Dragon Quest/Final Fantasy conventions "light RPGs". I like that, because you could include games like Costume Quest without conflating about country of origin.
How about:
Traditional RPG (influenced by tabletop or pen/paper games)
Light RPGs (DQ/FF)
Action RPG (Dark Souls)
I have never liked JRPG or WRPG as a genre titles.
Japanese PC RPGs in the 1980s were influenced by games like Wizardry and follow conventions you'd probably describe as "western RPGs". Would you call games like Elminage or Dark Souls JRPGs just because they originate in Japan? What about Costume Quest? That's a western-made game that's designed like a Dragon Quest title. Is that a JRPG?
In Japan they call games that follow Dragon Quest/Final Fantasy conventions "light RPGs". I like that, because you could include games like Costume Quest without conflating about country of origin.
How about:
Traditional RPG (influenced by tabletop or pen/paper games)
Light RPGs (DQ/FF)
Action RPG (Dark Souls)
I wish Japan hadn't gotten its fingers into Wizardry.
And I say this as a Japanese Games fanboy.
SloaneRisette
Member
Ancient Dragon for SC6
Edit is Smash an RPG because I play the role of RPG character Ness
So Smash is a double RPG
sixteen-bit
Member
Weren't some of the CAS designs in SC5 based on Dark Souls? I remember some pre-launch promo videos with custom Souls characters.
RockTurtle
Member
i'm disappointed yams!
Lostconfused
Member
Are rogulikes RPGs?
You actually could use the saved player characters from quest mode in versus, with their buffed stats. It got very stupid very quickly.
Most rougelikes are not even like rouge!
Karsticles
Member
So is Team Fortress 2 an RPG?
Look, here is my basic logic: movies are all about cinematography. Movie genres are listed based on cinematographic themes. Games are all about gameplay. Game genres should be based on gameplay types. Character customization and growth is a game mechanic, but it is not gameplay. Thus, RPG should not be a genre unless it refers to a type of gameplay.
I feel like RPG needs to refer to the gameplay, or it needs to stop being called a genre.
W and J are incredibly stupid distinctions fostered by the issue I outlined above. Oblivion and FF both want to be called RPGs, but they share absolutely zero gameplay similarities. So people try and accommodate a flawed perspective by issuing new labels. New, awful labels.
You don't create or define your character at all in Chrono Trigger outside of equipment. In most classic RPGs, you also don't influence story progression, since progression is linear. On the other hand, a shooter could let you create a custom character and have a responsive plot.
Roguelikes can be anything if you just mean a game that has no save points.
Maybe we need to break games down into three points:
Genre - gameplay based (FPS, action, turn-based)
Subgenre - underlying mechanics (RPG, Roguelike)
Theme - tone aspects that are not gameplay related (Horror)
Maybe there could be a better label than subgenre, but I am liking this approach.
Hot Coldman
Banned
Smash is only an RPG if you play Shulk.
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